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> AV Receivers/ Speakers/ Subwoofers, Discussion & Opinion

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SSJBen
post Oct 14 2020, 04:24 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Oct 14 2020, 03:56 PM)
I was talking about speaker that purposely designed for 7.1 (housed together with front speaker) which has speaker on top angled toward ceiling at angle to reflect back to audience. A surround speakers, not the front speakers  smile.gif
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Upfring Atmos modules are stupid, period.

They can work in only a very specific condition:

- Your ceiling is FLAT and is REFLECTIVE (problem 1)
- Your ceiling must be no higher than 12ft, optimally it should be 8-10ft.
- You must sit in ONE location only, that means if you have guests, well too fucking bad for them.

@problem 1
You generally want your room to be controlled acoustically, that means having acoustic absorption. The L/R fronts and center speakers are a million times more important than the heights, so just because upfiring speakers requires the ceiling to be untreated and reflective, you'd then have to compromise on the most important speakers in the system? Do you see how stupid that sounds?
Zot
post Oct 15 2020, 08:04 AM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Oct 14 2020, 04:24 PM)
Upfring Atmos modules are stupid, period.

They can work in only a very specific condition:

- Your ceiling is FLAT and is REFLECTIVE (problem 1)
- Your ceiling must be no higher than 12ft, optimally it should be 8-10ft.
- You must sit in ONE location only, that means if you have guests, well too fucking bad for them.

@problem 1
You generally want your room to be controlled acoustically, that means having acoustic absorption. The L/R fronts and center speakers are a million times more important than the heights, so just because upfiring speakers requires the ceiling to be untreated and reflective, you'd then have to compromise on the most important speakers in the system? Do you see how stupid that sounds?
*
It serve certain condition and simple solution to certain people, not all.

Don't you think the 7.1 is excessive in most house hall in Malaysia? Nowadays, electronics can emulate the spaciousness of the area. Even with 5.1 I think it is already adequate, but of course industry need to invent something news biggrin.gif
touristking
post Oct 15 2020, 11:07 AM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Oct 14 2020, 09:24 AM)
Upfring Atmos modules are stupid, period.

They can work in only a very specific condition:

- Your ceiling is FLAT and is REFLECTIVE (problem 1)
- Your ceiling must be no higher than 12ft, optimally it should be 8-10ft.
- You must sit in ONE location only, that means if you have guests, well too fucking bad for them.

@problem 1
You generally want your room to be controlled acoustically, that means having acoustic absorption. The L/R fronts and center speakers are a million times more important than the heights, so just because upfiring speakers requires the ceiling to be untreated and reflective, you'd then have to compromise on the most important speakers in the system? Do you see how stupid that sounds?
*
With that, people can get carried away and start listening to the notes instead of the music or soundtrack. A sure sign of that would be, people start viewing the exact same part of a movie over and over again to to see whether the notes are same or difference with different speaker/placement etc.




SSJBen
post Oct 15 2020, 02:31 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Oct 15 2020, 08:04 AM)
It serve certain condition and simple solution to certain people, not all.

Don't you think the 7.1 is excessive in most house hall in Malaysia? Nowadays, electronics can emulate the spaciousness of the area. Even with 5.1 I think it is already adequate, but of course industry need to invent something news  biggrin.gif
*
My opinion is that it doesn't serve a purpose at all. Why do Atmos when you're going to half ass it? Just don't do it instead. Spending the money, time and effort in getting the LCR channels right is a lot more important. If one cannot do Atmos and still wants surround, like you said - 5.1 is adequate, in fact more than adequate.

7.1 is indeed excessive for most living rooms in Malaysia. Considering that most homes are now also condos, 5.1 setups are also compromised because the typical positioning of a couch is usually flushed up against a wall.

Main take away is that people need to understand that spending RM5k on a pair of speakers just for the L and R gives them much better sound quality than squeezing RM5k into some half-assed Atmos setup. I've personally been through this and I can objectively show the differences in graphs and room measurements to prove it.

Zot
post Oct 15 2020, 03:21 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Oct 15 2020, 02:31 PM)
My opinion is that it doesn't serve a purpose at all. Why do Atmos when you're going to half ass it? Just don't do it instead. Spending the money, time and effort in getting the LCR channels right is a lot more important. If one cannot do Atmos and still wants surround, like you said - 5.1 is adequate, in fact more than adequate.

7.1 is indeed excessive for most living rooms in Malaysia. Considering that most homes are now also condos, 5.1 setups are also compromised because the typical positioning of a couch is usually flushed up against a wall.

Main take away is that people need to understand that spending RM5k on a pair of speakers just for the L and R gives them much better sound quality than squeezing RM5k into some half-assed Atmos setup. I've personally been through this and I can objectively show the differences in graphs and room measurements to prove it.
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I agree on speaker. For example 2k speakers will sound significantly better than 1k speakers; but with a 2k amplifier you can hardly hear the difference than a 1k amplifier since most amplifier price is on power and additional features nowadays. smile.gif
touristking
post Oct 15 2020, 03:25 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Oct 15 2020, 07:31 AM)
Main take away is that people need to understand that spending RM5k on a pair of speakers just for the L and R gives them much better sound quality than squeezing RM5k into some half-assed Atmos setup. I've personally been through this and I can objectively show the differences in graphs and room measurements to prove it.
*
I do believe you are right, having been with people who are into high end HiFi and have also heard some costing 500K. To get good sound, and I am sure that includes Atmos, one will need to have a dedicated room.




SSJBen
post Oct 15 2020, 03:33 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Oct 15 2020, 03:21 PM)
I agree on speaker. For example 2k speakers will sound significantly better than 1k speakers; but with a 2k amplifier you can hardly hear the difference than a 1k amplifier since most amplifier price is on power and additional features nowadays.  smile.gif
*
Hence that's why I think upfring Atmos modules are stupid. There are a lot of content now with Atmos tracks, but they still aren't done very well. Not a whole lot of movies has rivaled the dedicated Atmos demos that Dolby specifically made few years ago. I wasted a lot of time in getting Atmos right and to be frank, I don't think it was even worth all that effort at this point.


QUOTE(touristking @ Oct 15 2020, 03:25 PM)
I do believe you are right, having been with people who are into high end HiFi and have also heard some costing 500K. To get good sound, and I am sure that includes Atmos, one will need to have a dedicated room.
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A dedicated room is indeed preferred, because you can control the variables. The right amount of absorption, the right amount of diffusion, the seating configuration, the sub placement (which is vitally important), all that requires a dedicated room. I built one myself just to have these kind of luxuries.

This post has been edited by SSJBen: Oct 15 2020, 03:33 PM
chriscym
post Oct 15 2020, 04:18 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Oct 15 2020, 03:33 PM)
Hence that's why I think upfring Atmos modules are stupid. There are a lot of content now with Atmos tracks, but they still aren't done very well. Not a whole lot of movies has rivaled the dedicated Atmos demos that Dolby specifically made few years ago. I wasted a lot of time in getting Atmos right and to be frank, I don't think it was even worth all that effort at this point.
A dedicated room is indeed preferred, because you can control the variables. The right amount of absorption, the right amount of diffusion, the seating configuration, the sub placement (which is vitally important), all that requires a dedicated room. I built one myself just to have these kind of luxuries.
*
in your opinion do you think in ceiling or the downward firing speaker would be the proper solution for atmos?
SSJBen
post Oct 15 2020, 04:23 PM

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QUOTE(chriscym @ Oct 15 2020, 04:18 PM)
in your opinion do you think in ceiling or the downward firing speaker would be the proper solution for atmos?
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In-ceilings are the best solution for proper Atmos.

On-walls work as well, if you don't want to cut holes in your ceiling.

This post has been edited by SSJBen: Oct 15 2020, 04:25 PM
touristking
post Oct 15 2020, 04:38 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Oct 15 2020, 08:33 AM)
A dedicated room is indeed preferred, because you can control the variables. The right amount of absorption, the right amount of diffusion, the seating configuration, the sub placement (which is vitally important), all that requires a dedicated room. I built one myself just to have these kind of luxuries.
*
so who get the sweet spot seat? Can get pretty lonely in an empty room.

chriscym
post Oct 15 2020, 04:57 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Oct 15 2020, 04:23 PM)
In-ceilings are the best solution for proper Atmos.

On-walls work as well, if you don't want to cut holes in your ceiling.
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Thanks, I guess its hard to have a perfect setup. Upfiring speaker may be appealing for those who have the right room condition and dont want to drill holes into their ceiling / wall. I believe nothing is perfect
SSJBen
post Oct 15 2020, 05:09 PM

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QUOTE(touristking @ Oct 15 2020, 04:38 PM)
so who get the sweet spot seat? Can get pretty lonely in an empty room.
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Wait, why would you have to be alone? You can have multiple seats in a dedicated room and optimize sound for all the seats.


QUOTE(chriscym @ Oct 15 2020, 04:57 PM)
Thanks, I guess its hard to have a perfect setup. Upfiring speaker may be appealing for those who have the right room condition and dont want to drill holes into their ceiling / wall. I believe nothing is perfect
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Cutting holes in the ceiling, perhaps not for everyone.

But drilling holes in the wall to mount speakers? Come on... if you can drill holes to mount portraits, you can drill holes for speakers. Same concept.
sonerin
post Oct 16 2020, 09:59 AM

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QUOTE(chriscym @ Oct 15 2020, 04:57 PM)
Thanks, I guess its hard to have a perfect setup. Upfiring speaker may be appealing for those who have the right room condition and dont want to drill holes into their ceiling / wall. I believe nothing is perfect
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Is a compromise. Just like some people will accept sound bar as well. Nothing wrong with that.
Skylinestar
post Oct 16 2020, 11:39 AM

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QUOTE(chriscym @ Oct 15 2020, 04:18 PM)
in your opinion do you think in ceiling or the downward firing speaker would be the proper solution for atmos?
*
IMO, no. The sound quality of in-ceiling speaker is very poor due to the lack of the speaker cabinet.
If possible, get a proper speaker with bracket and struts that run across the ceiling.
But not everyone can do that. Depends on how much you can compromise.
I have gone from the era of 5.0 mini compo to Atmos with acoustic transparent screen, dealing with many compromise in the past. As you learned more, you realized there are things that just cannot be cheap-out due to science/physics.

This post has been edited by Skylinestar: Oct 16 2020, 11:42 AM
touristking
post Oct 16 2020, 03:29 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Oct 15 2020, 10:09 AM)
Wait, why would you have to be alone? You can have multiple seats in a dedicated room and optimize sound for all the seats.
Generally speaking, with sound, there is a spot that have the best. I am assuming from a Hifi standpoint.


SSJBen
post Oct 16 2020, 03:38 PM

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QUOTE(Skylinestar @ Oct 16 2020, 11:39 AM)
IMO, no. The sound quality of in-ceiling speaker is very poor due to the lack of the speaker cabinet.
If possible, get a proper speaker with bracket and struts that run across the ceiling.
But not everyone can do that. Depends on how much you can compromise.
I have gone from the era of 5.0 mini compo to Atmos with acoustic transparent screen, dealing with many compromise in the past. As you learned more, you realized there are things that just cannot be cheap-out due to science/physics.
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@bolded
This is true. That's why those who are actually building their room from scratch will also build cabinets for the in-ceiling drivers. It's almost like a bookshelf except the driver will be using the ceiling as its baffle.


QUOTE(touristking @ Oct 16 2020, 03:29 PM)
Generally speaking, with sound, there is a spot that have the best. I am assuming from a Hifi standpoint.
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Yes, that's music in 2.0. But we're talking about HT for movies here. In my room, as far as multi-channel content is concerned, all my seats are sweet spots. There are no "mother in law" seats in my room.

This post has been edited by SSJBen: Oct 16 2020, 03:40 PM
chriscym
post Oct 16 2020, 04:32 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Oct 16 2020, 03:38 PM)
Yes, that's music in 2.0. But we're talking about HT for movies here. In my room, as far as multi-channel content is concerned, all my seats are sweet spots. There are no "mother in law" seats in my room.
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if we follow what Dolby guideline says we need to point the speakers in a certain angle, my understanding is that by doing that the sweetspot is limited. How did you setup your system to have multiple sweet spot? Do you adjust the angles outside of what Dolby suggested to set a sweet spot for a larger area instead of a focus area?
SSJBen
post Oct 16 2020, 05:01 PM

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QUOTE(chriscym @ Oct 16 2020, 04:32 PM)
if we follow what Dolby guideline says we need to point the speakers in a certain angle, my understanding is that by doing that the sweetspot is limited. How did you setup your system to have multiple sweet spot? Do you adjust the angles outside of what Dolby suggested to set a sweet spot for a larger area instead of a focus area?
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Dolby's guidelines are not perfect. Their guidelines are based on a very specific room size and shape, which nobody at home has. So you can't just follow their placement guide and expect it to work.
What you can do however is use the formula of placement and toe-in angles in relation to your room.

An example is the front L/R calls for 60 degrees to the center point of your sit, but in Dolby's guide - they place the seat 1/4 length from the back of the room. But what if your seat isn't 1/4 length but instead 1/2 length (I hope not because this is usually where the biggest room null is for a rectangle shaped room)? Now you can't put the speakers at the same distance from the front wall and get 60 degrees anymore. So you compensate for that by changing the placement of the speakers. It's really all simple maths and geometry.

When I say multiple sweet spots, it means that each and every of my seats has an even bass response. I have 4 seats in my room and no single seat has more or less bass than the other. Because in a multi channel setup, it's common to use a dedicated center channel. So to avoid lobing issues, all you gotta do is either use a vertical center that is identical to the L/R channels or get a horizontal Woofer-Tweeter+Mid-Woofer configuration center, which is what I'm using (SVS Ultra center). Dialogue and pretty much anything that appears on screen is locked to the middle no matter where the seating position is then.
chriscym
post Oct 16 2020, 05:21 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Oct 16 2020, 05:01 PM)
Dolby's guidelines are not perfect. Their guidelines are based on a very specific room size and shape, which nobody at home has. So you can't just follow their placement guide and expect it to work.
What you can do however is use the formula of placement and toe-in angles in relation to your room.

An example is the front L/R calls for 60 degrees to the center point of your sit, but in Dolby's guide - they place the seat 1/4 length from the back of the room. But what if your seat isn't 1/4 length but instead 1/2 length (I hope not because this is usually where the biggest room null is for a rectangle shaped room)? Now you can't put the speakers at the same distance from the front wall and get 60 degrees anymore. So you compensate for that by changing the placement of the speakers. It's really all simple maths and geometry.

When I say multiple sweet spots, it means that each and every of my seats has an even bass response. I have 4 seats in my room and no single seat has more or less bass than the other. Because in a multi channel setup, it's common to use a dedicated center channel. So to avoid lobing issues, all you gotta do is either use a vertical center that is identical to the L/R channels or get a horizontal Woofer-Tweeter+Mid-Woofer configuration center, which is what I'm using (SVS Ultra center). Dialogue and pretty much anything that appears on screen is locked to the middle no matter where the seating position is then.
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Thanks for your input, it make sense. In my living hall setup, it is a bit hard for me to spread the surround back wider than then front due to the design of the wall , I can put a 22 degrees angle or stretch up to max 30 degrees but my surround needs to fix in narrower position approximate 10 inch left + 10 inch right narrower. I afraid that this would cause the sound field to be imbalance at the surround. But I read that the AVR's audyssey xt32 calibration will determine the delay to compensate not sure how good it is, I read many good comments about audyssey xt32. Not sure will this solve the problem, I will need to test it out tomorrow, else I need to rearrange my furniture a bit , but it does not look good aesthetically
SSJBen
post Oct 16 2020, 05:54 PM

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QUOTE(chriscym @ Oct 16 2020, 05:21 PM)
Thanks for your input, it make sense. In my living hall setup, it is a bit hard for me to spread the surround back wider than then front due to the design of the wall , I can put a 22 degrees angle or stretch up to max 30 degrees but my surround needs to fix in narrower position approximate 10 inch left + 10 inch right narrower. I afraid that this would cause the sound field to be imbalance at the surround. But I read that the AVR's audyssey xt32 calibration will determine the delay to compensate not sure how good it is, I read many good comments about audyssey xt32. Not sure will this solve the problem, I will need to test it out tomorrow, else I need to rearrange my furniture a bit , but it does not look good aesthetically
*
Yes there will be a compromise in surround panning that you have to live with if your side (I believe you're doing 5.1.4 right?) surrounds isn't wider than your fronts and isn't angled properly. You may notice a "hole" in the soundstage when objects off screen pans from the middle to the left then to your surround left. It would sound as if the object has disappeared momentarily then re-appear again to your side.

Delays can help to a certain extent, but I'm not sure if Audyssey would do that for you. Your adjustment would probably need to be manually tuned. This is because Audyssey calculates delays based on time from a channel to where the mic is placed, in relation to the reflections in the room. It does not compensate for your speaker placement for object based audio.

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