Hi coffee gurus, I'm looking to get an expresso machine, budget around 2-3k and have narrowed it down to the following requirements.

Must haves
I believe these are the things that will actually have the most impact.
1) Double boilers/thermoblocks - Improve speed as I can froth while pulling the shot.
2) PID - Temperature consistency.
3) 58mm portafilter
4) Automatic, single/double shots selection, as it needs to be a bit user friendly for wifey, so fully manual on/off machines are out.
5) No built in grinder required, as buying powder pre-grinned.

Good to haves
1) Hot water dispensers = I can save countertop space, as no need buy separate water heater.

What would be the good options available to me?
I was considering the Gemilai 3200D, at approximately RM 2.8k, but the size seems huge and will take up a lot of counter space.

Units in consideration
Currently leaning towards Gemilai 3200D - Overall looks decent, but HUGE size
KD-210S2 or Carimali CM300 (same model I believe, just rebadged) - The size and features seems nice, but I read the portafilter is pressurized? I believe can replace?

Out of consideration
Seems like Milestos are all manual on/off machines do they have something with the single/double shot selection?
Breville that meets criteria 1-4 is out of my budget.

This post has been edited by eltaria: Apr 1 2021, 04:18 PM

!! Lol, I'll stick to my Aeropress if this is true.


Anyway, I am going with the Gemilai la, I still believe pre ground is not that bad, compared with a lot of setup I see where the self owned grinder is of questionable quality also.
A not so fresh (maybe couple weeks old, but perfectly sealed until unpacking) but properly grinded by your roaster will be better than a fresh beans, but grinded with subpar grinders....

I have seen a lot of setup, where a subpar grinder is used... and I am almost certain that the pre-ground is gonna be better.

Okay, noted. I do understand ideally, it's best to have a grinder, I'm not against it.

What I'm trying to say I guess, is fresh roasted pre-ground with good grinder vs not good grinders
(nothing against these owners, or maybe those machines can really give a good even grind size) But I feel, if I'm using these types of grinders, I'll have grind size consistencies issues, some will be coarser and some will be finer. If the ground size is inconsistent, that's a problem that you cannot fix, no matter what, u will get both over and under extracted coffee at the same time.

My idea of going pre-ground is, at least I believe the roaster's grinding machine is at least good enough to give a consistent grind.

If the ground size is at least uniform, then I can adjust the other variables (Coffee amount, brew time) to get the correct ratio, and an acceptable shot.
The roaster that I buy from, roast their beans fresh, I buy just a couple of packs at a time and it'll be used up within 1-2 weeks, to minimize shelf time.
Lastly, time and maintenance is also another aspect that I'm willing to trade.. again, lesser of the two evils thingy. In the morning when you're rushing for work, every minute counts


It's not ideal I know, but to me, it's the overall lesser of two evils la, where by a uniform grind size, will be the lesser evil, vs buying an own grinder on a budget, and getting uneven grinds.
Lesser evil, for me to pre ground, vs shelf space, or $$ to buy a good burr grinder
I'm open to getting a grinder possibly in the future, like I said, I'm not against it, but at the moment, overall it's a trade off I'm willing to accept. Let's see how it goes after a couple packets of extra fine pre-ground







This post has been edited by eltaria: Apr 7 2021, 10:46 AM

For example, this is a very very common setup that I see, being sold in a set, grinder + expresso machine.

To me, pre-ground from a reputable roastery with a good grinding machine is certainly gonna be way better than anything that comes out from this grinder..... in terms of the consistency



This post has been edited by eltaria: Apr 7 2021, 11:34 AM

understood, ok la, let's see how it goes, and i'll update again on what results i get later.

I'll go ahead with the gemilai 3200 and will play around with the extra fine preground.

If I can get the 1:2 ratio, 25 seconds time like that, no chanelling, it's good enough d.

I'll share on my experience later once I have the things in place

I've used grinders before, so I do understand the concept there, just that due to other considerations, I will have to work with my current constraints.

And if my experience is good, I hope that for those with entry level grinders, that it possibly could be an acceptable or even better experience if they switch to good pre-ground..
I've read somewhere that if you have to trade between a good pre-ground vs a low entry grinder, by all means, good pre-ground will be the better choice.

This post has been edited by eltaria: Apr 7 2021, 01:20 PM

the gemilai 3200D is not a pressurized espresso machine ya... I'll try it out and see how it goes.

It's not that simple, as I keep saying, there is a sizeable community of us whereby they can't get a acceptable grinder, due to various valid reasons
1) Kitchen space
2) Preparation and maintenance time
3) Cost, for the sake of discussion, let's agree that any grinders < RM 500 to be unsuitable for grinding consistently. I think you'll need a minimum ZD16 grinder? Around RM600.
4) There's a lot of users out there who is using subpar grinders, < RM 200 grinders out there.

For those that fall into the above categories, we just need to work within the constraints of what's available to us, and I feel that's where pre-ground coffee by your roastery can be acceptable. I'm not talking about buying pre-ground from tesco etc... where their 'pre-ground' is not intended for expresso machines at all.

Don't just keep saying must use grinder, must use grinder, as it may only encourage more people to buy subpar grinders, which I think we all should agree is worst for the end result.

In my own research on this topic, my general idea to solve the problem for people like me is

1) Buy maybe 200g from a reputable roastery, preferably your own neighborhood roasters, tell them to grind for expresso machine. You get the benefit of customizable grind size, as you build the relationship with them
2) Ask them to take note of their 'extra fine' grind size, if they're experienced, their 'extra fine' should fall within +- 10% of your machine's,
3) Pull your shots, if it's over extracted (too fine) -0.x to 3g to your recipe. It's its under extracted +0.x to 3g to your recipe.
4) Repeat until you get a shot that's acceptable, (due to our constraints, we accept the tradeoff for time, cost, convenience against the perfect shots)
4a) If the +- of grams don't work, then you can +- temperature of your expresso machine, (if it's programmable)
5) Note down that their current grind setting is too fine or too coarse.
6) Go back to them to tune their grind a bit more for you the next batch of pre-ground.
Rinse and repeat few packets, and eventually, you'll get to a point where, the pre-groud is good enough.


While I appreciate and I do understand why we should grind, (I've used grinders before) there's just those of us who can't and we need to do the next best thing that's available to us, telling us we should grind our own, or how each pack of new beans need to be dialed in, that's not gonna work, or worst, it encourages subpar grinder purchases.

I'll go ahead with my plans and see how it works out, if it does end up with an acceptable shot, this is something that I feel could really improve the experience for a lot out there, especially those that are currently grinding with subpar grinders (those ~RM 100 ish grinders that I see a lot is using)

This post has been edited by eltaria: Apr 11 2021, 07:58 AM

It's been a few weeks, and I'd like to add in some comments on how my experiment went.

I got a bag of extra fine from SOL roastery, via shoppee

1st 3 of attempts was overly under extracted, as I was tampering too weak i believe. Getting 4 to 7 bars of pressure as i increased the dosage.
4th attempt, at 18g, I got about 8 pressure, and the flow is still quite fast, ended up with ~40g at around 15 seconds.

5th attempt,
1) 20g of coffee powder
2) Even tampering, with a leveling tool, and sufficient force of tamper.
3) Extraction time 23-26 seconds? I didn't really time it to the dot, as I wasn't expecting it to go well yet - Check
4) Pressure, ~9-10 bar of pressure using unfiltered portafilter/basket - Check
5) I got 41g of extraction, for my 1 to 2 ratio - Check.

Mathematically, the expresso hits all the correct numbers.

Moving on to the taste test, it's good. Not overly sour, body's good, not overly bitter and I can even get a lingering sweet '金' after taste to it,
Crema's sufficiently there, the coffee could have been fresher admittedly, but that's my own problem as I only started brewing with the expresso machine couple of weeks after my pre ground has arrived.

But by all means, it's actually a workable routine.

If you're using those free grinders with your gemilai, or those < RM 300 grinders, going for pre ground coffee, from a roastery that freshly grinds and ship to you, is actually a much better experience and I encourage you all to try, don't get discouraged by those who say you must grind yourself, without understanding fully the grinders that you need to buy to be able to home grind, you will literally destroy your fresh precious costly coffee beans live with subpar grinders!

You will
1) Save time from grinding your own beans, faster cleanup.
2) You will get a much better expresso shot, as you will get an even grind size across your entire pack, getting an even grind size is actually a more IMPORTANT variable vs how fresh your beans to grinding is.
3) You don't have to invest RM 600++ or over thousands for a grinder that will take up kitchen space and maintenance
4) Less coffee wastages, from dialing, throwing the 10g of coffee from the old settings.

I'll add in a video/pictures later.

This post has been edited by eltaria: Apr 29 2021, 09:57 AM

Hi... here's how it went.

The first round with the gemilai where i kinda had acceptable result at 20 - 20.5g is with the pre-ground on the left.
It was acceptable, but it's a bit coarser than i'd like.
After finishing the batch, i got a new one from mister coffee, as I previously bought their 'Fine' for my aeropress. In comparison, mr coffee's Fine is like Sol Roastery's Extra Fine, so my hunch will be Mr Coffee's extra fine will be perfect. for the expresso machine
[/url]

From the picture, (sorry the quality is not too good) but it's finer than what i had.

Here's the video of the shot I pulled.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SzV5CwXuLI...iew?usp=sharing

I've gotten pretty good results, at 18-19g

It's a workable routine, if you wanna safe some time, or if your in a condo, and kitchen space is a premium.

For those with a good grinder setup, I'm interested to know whata's your results from mister coffee's extra fine too. It'll be great if you can get a pack and try it out too.

The only downside i feel is, the coffee is like a couple weeks 'old' lar upon arrival (I got coffee thats probably grinded and packed on mid of april in 1st week of may), but crema's still there.. and it tastes quite good la.

Thanks.

They're certainly not freshly roasted, I can confirm to that.
For the batch of beans I ordered in May 2021, from it's expiry date April (2022/2023?? unsure?), this indicates that it's roasted/packed in April 2021.
It's not the freshest, but it's acceptable, for the convenience loh. Still have reasonable amount of crema.

All in, to me, it's a workable routine la, the naked portafilter may or may not show channeling, I'm not sure I want to spend the money for that too...

As i mentioned when I started this journey, it's basically done as a tradeoff between getting the best possible coffee, that I can, without the need to grind.
The 3200c is bought, because i wanted a semi auto for the ease of use for my GF, who can just tamper in 18g press a button and walk away.

I started with Sol, and as shared, their 'extra fine' wasn't fine enough.
I mitigated that by going to 20 - 20.5g and tampering quite hard. I was able to get a decent shot around 8.5 to 9 bars of pressure.

Upon finishing Sols' I went to Mr Coffee, and I can pull my shots using 18-19g, ard 24-28 seconds like that, with a 1 to 2 ratio, and the pressure at ~9 bars
Mathematically, and from my personal tasting wise, it's a good enough shot to us ya...

Previously I've use freshly grounded beans before as well, in my previous co, there's free flow of beans, and milk and expresso machines. I also had the opportunity to learn from some experienced gurus while I was there as well.. how to 'bless' the portafilter, always purge before you pull your shots etc...

Maybe in the future I'll get a timemore+freshly ground for the weekends coffee routine, spending ~180++ for hand grinders makes me hesitant though.
ZD17N maybe the only electronic grinder that can grind expresso, without going over 1,000 for a grinder.

My next option is, I can go to my local cafe that I frequent as well, they roast and sell coffee beans too, I can ask the to preground for me.

I take this as a journey for those of us without the benefit of grinders.

I'm enjoying the trip so far, if this is the worst that it gets, I'm really not complaining

This post has been edited by eltaria: May 31 2021, 11:59 PM

Machine's Ok.

part of the reasons I bought his is
1) Limited kitchen top space, this machine can act as hot water dispenser, so I don't need to purchase another device
2) Double boiler, I can froth while pulling the shot, increasing my turnaround time, for the less covid future when i can serve my friends/guests again in my place.
3) Semi Auto, press a button and walk away. For my GF's ease of use, I just teach her how to tamper properly, with the 18/18.5g
4) 3 liter of water tank is good too.

Haven't really used it that long, got it in March, I'm doing an average of 7 cups a week? Mainly 2+2 cups for the weekends, and occasional 2-4 cups in weekdays.

Handgrinder, I got check it out, Timemore would be an acceptable one I believe, but it costs like 200 bucks and you need to handgrind!
The closest grinder that I can possibly splurge on, is WD17N from Dankoff, that's around 900 bucks.

Anything from other brands, the grinders' gonna be 1k++, eureka mignon specialita, is 2.7k for the grinder itself... too pricey.
Again, even if $ is not an issue, kitchen space is a problem for those of us living in condo.
Also, owning a grinder, you'll need to 'waste' some coffee as you purge out the old grind setting leftovers... and it's another set of gadget to maintain too.

I envy to be in your position, but I guess my case is more mainstream falling within the same constraint as I, whereby we need to balance $, kitchen space, and preparation time to get the next best thing.


Who wouldn't want this for their coffee setup


This post has been edited by eltaria: Jun 1 2021, 12:13 AM