Hi everyone, i need some advise. I get job offer from kpmg and bdo penang, I am applying for tax position, I am in dilemma now which firm I should join.

My concern is the working environment of both firms and the training they provide. I understand that their workload may be the same but kpmg may have more exposure, which firms will have a better working culture?

Another concern is the training aspect. I see this importantly because I want to be a tax planner in the future. Which firms provide better training to staffs, how they provide their training, do they send their staffs to external training such as seminar?

If someone is working there or have friends work there, please give some advise or comparison about these two firms, thank you.

Read these if you already reach the 3rd year or just promoted as manager in Big4 

I think those that stay because some really like audit / because they are good at it (although these are rare). Most I know complained endlessly during lunch and at midnight about how much better outside, Uber employees earn more per hour, …
So, intention to leave is clear but its not a clear guarantee the world is better outside. Again to use auditors favorite word, these are just my personal opinion ...

Option 1: Join your client  in the reporting line as accountant/FM/SFM/CFO….

Rationale: Client wants you because they know you can deal back with your old firm.

Pros: Money must be good initially (to prise you away) but lesser incremental later on, you are familiar with the work (in theory), work-life balance (except during reporting deadline) and plenty of opportunities (a company die due must have a reporting staff)

Cons: Big4 look down on people that join client in reporting (especially anything below FM or CFO), most company will not hire Big4 as CFO straight away but prefer they climb up from Acc/FM, lack of prospect (unless got turnover), lack of skills (unless they are actual finance involved), lack of increments (your KPI is based on cost-centre, in audit you are revenue centre), lack of friends (depends on company structure as most hate finance dept)…

My own view: Being a good auditor does not make you a good accountant like a good coach makes them a great player.

Option 2: Join internal audit
Rationale: For those that loves audit but hated the hours

Pros: Very similar to accountant but the upside is your basic may be higher

Cons: Similar to accountant but a lot travel is necessary and your skills may be more specialised as not all people wants internal audit in their organisation (it’s because they are mandated to)

Option 3: Join a finance role (either advisory, investment banking)
Rationale: This is what every auditor will say (to look ambitious) before they actually left the firm. These are the roles most won’t feel embarrassed of stating. Accounting is not finance period.

Reality check: Most will apply to investment banks or asset management first. Most will get rejected as I am aware through industry knowledge, most banks (at least the top tier ones) in MYS does not see how audit knowledge can translate into areas such as CF, M&A, … (unless you have a CFA). If accepted, most will ask you to start at lower levels (so those with ego will get slighted). Assuming you do want to start at lower level you have to start suffering all over again. And salary is low (yes it is) but bonus is high depending on performance.

Based on these thoughts, most will lower down their goal and try advisory by asking the partner to recommend (if you are visible to them). This might take time as the audit partner wants you to finish all the work first and for the advisory partner to assess you. You might retain your position but don’t be surprised if you take longer time to get promoted. Again based on the type of advisory offerings, less than half requires even part of audit knowledge. So only the multi-talented one gets accepted.

Pros: A higher paying job in the end (if you want to see the difference, just see how much Big4 receives from corporate exercise compared to bankers), skills that is desirable at higher level (audit is non-revenue generating but advisory is), glamour???

Cons: Hours are worse, politics are worse, culture are worse, … and most important it requires a huge leap of skills acquisition from audit. And mistakes are not tolerated at all (especially when talking about corporate proposals). Bad works leads to missing business opportunities

Option 4: Unrelated (Corporate , Management Consulting, Hedge fund, asset management)
I assume if we are seeking progression, most will talked about joining these two.

Rationale: Glamour I guess, Imagine telling people you join MBB. Salary is very good (normally in USD) and a lot more.

Problem: Unless you came from an outstanding school, u hardly stand a chance applying with audit background. Then if you come from outstanding school (with no scholarship affiliation) why you decide to join big4 audit instead if you can apply to others?

Conclusion

So …. After all these, you think people don’t want to stay meh? Lol. Post manager in Big4 not bad. Steady progression (due to huge turnover), very good increment (RM1k per year almost guaranteed unless again you screw up), tons of associates can’t wait to bootlick you, no need to learn much after manager but just managing people and portfolio (apart from updating accounting or auditing standards), no risks of entrenchment (unless again you screwed it).

I think the biggest perk is that any manager can say “The firm needs me, the partner begs me to stay”. In commercial, its normally the other way around as many can take up your spot. And in commercial, staffs are normally given adequate time to prepare a quality work. In audit (especially in developing countries), staffs are given inadequate time to just submit the work. Auditors that don’t realise these going to commercial will have nightmares in their transition.

Read these if you already reach the 3rd year or just promoted as manager in Big4 

I think those that stay because some really like audit / because they are good at it (although these are rare). Most I know complained endlessly during lunch and at midnight about how much better outside, Uber employees earn more per hour, …
So, intention to leave is clear but its not a clear guarantee the world is better outside. Again to use auditors favorite word, these are just my personal opinion ...

Option 1: Join your client  in the reporting line as accountant/FM/SFM/CFO….

Rationale: Client wants you because they know you can deal back with your old firm.

Pros: Money must be good initially (to prise you away) but lesser incremental later on, you are familiar with the work (in theory), work-life balance (except during reporting deadline) and plenty of opportunities (a company die due must have a reporting staff)

Cons: Big4 look down on people that join client in reporting (especially anything below FM or CFO), most company will not hire Big4 as CFO straight away but prefer they climb up from Acc/FM, lack of prospect (unless got turnover), lack of skills (unless they are actual finance involved), lack of increments (your KPI is based on cost-centre, in audit you are revenue centre), lack of friends (depends on company structure as most hate finance dept)…

My own view: Being a good auditor does not make you a good accountant like a good coach makes them a great player.

Option 2: Join internal audit
Rationale: For those that loves audit but hated the hours

Pros: Very similar to accountant but the upside is your basic may be higher

Cons: Similar to accountant but a lot travel is necessary and your skills may be more specialised as not all people wants internal audit in their organisation (it’s because they are mandated to)

Option 3: Join a finance role (either advisory, investment banking)
Rationale: This is what every auditor will say (to look ambitious) before they actually left the firm. These are the roles most won’t feel embarrassed of stating. Accounting is not finance period.

Reality check: Most will apply to investment banks or asset management first. Most will get rejected as I am aware through industry knowledge, most banks (at least the top tier ones) in MYS does not see how audit knowledge can translate into areas such as CF, M&A, … (unless you have a CFA). If accepted, most will ask you to start at lower levels (so those with ego will get slighted). Assuming you do want to start at lower level you have to start suffering all over again. And salary is low (yes it is) but bonus is high depending on performance.

Based on these thoughts, most will lower down their goal and try advisory by asking the partner to recommend (if you are visible to them). This might take time as the audit partner wants you to finish all the work first and for the advisory partner to assess you. You might retain your position but don’t be surprised if you take longer time to get promoted. Again based on the type of advisory offerings, less than half requires even part of audit knowledge. So only the multi-talented one gets accepted.

Pros: A higher paying job in the end (if you want to see the difference, just see how much Big4 receives from corporate exercise compared to bankers), skills that is desirable at higher level (audit is non-revenue generating but advisory is), glamour???

Cons: Hours are worse, politics are worse, culture are worse, … and most important it requires a huge leap of skills acquisition from audit. And mistakes are not tolerated at all (especially when talking about corporate proposals). Bad works leads to missing business opportunities

Option 4: Unrelated (Corporate , Management Consulting, Hedge fund, asset management)
I assume if we are seeking progression, most will talked about joining these two.

Rationale: Glamour I guess, Imagine telling people you join MBB. Salary is very good (normally in USD) and a lot more.

Problem: Unless you came from an outstanding school, u hardly stand a chance applying with audit background. Then if you come from outstanding school (with no scholarship affiliation) why you decide to join big4 audit instead if you can apply to others?

Conclusion

So …. After all these, you think people don’t want to stay meh? Lol. Post manager in Big4 not bad. Steady progression (due to huge turnover), very good increment (RM1k per year almost guaranteed unless again you screw up), tons of associates can’t wait to bootlick you, no need to learn much after manager but just managing people and portfolio (apart from updating accounting or auditing standards), no risks of entrenchment (unless again you screwed it).

I think the biggest perk is that any manager can say “The firm needs me, the partner begs me to stay”. In commercial, its normally the other way around as many can take up your spot. And in commercial, staffs are normally given adequate time to prepare a quality work. In audit (especially in developing countries), staffs are given inadequate time to just submit the work. Auditors that don’t realise these going to commercial will have nightmares in their transition.

Hi,

I've been suggested to join Deloitte in either September or October by the HR.

Can anyone please tell me when is the promotion period so I don't miss out?

I remember a senior in KPMG telling me that if you join later, you'll have to wait another year for the promotion period. I was only an intern then so I didn't quite get that.

It would be much appreciated if someone could clarify thanks in advance

I see, thanks for everything sir, I think I'm out of questions currently.

Wow you're working in overseas now, how long you've been working already? Things going great?

Also, I found out this quote while doing my research, it's called "don't shit where you eat", is it really that dangerous? Would like to hear your personal opinion on this.

I think I will be finding a partner during my big 4 days, since people there are like-minded.