It's been established that almost every player has dived at some point. The thread title however does clearly say "who dives the most", and not "who dives".

Really? Well if he dived without wanting a penalty, why dive in the first place? If the ref awarded a penalty, why not tell the ref it wasn't on ala Fowler vs. Arsenal? We've already established that most players have dived before whether it be to get a penalty or to play in the mud like when they were kids. To say that Ronaldo dives but gets up really quickly all the time is like saying Gerrard dives all the time, it's not true. Fact is everyone goes down looking for a penalty otherwise there would be no point in going down in the first place, would there?

Actually neither are reasons why I voted for Ronaldo. As expected, it was a tossup between Drogba and Ronaldo. The Ivorian however has cleaned up a little since he was boo-ed by the Stamford Bridge faithful which is why I voted for Cristiano. I understand it is difficult to remain impartial especially when criticism is aimed at a player for your club. The thread titles does however ask us which player we think dives the most, and that player to me is Ronaldo. It is not to suggest that I think no Liverpool player dives or has dived in the past, it means that to me, none of them dives as often as Ronaldo. I won't go into naming incidences but the most notable for me was the dive against Borough, just as Gerrard's was for England. However as I said before, I personally think Stevie G dives much less than him.

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Added on June 20, 2007, 3:44 pmDo you even understand English? I didn't say Gerrard doesn't dive. The thread title is who dives the most? Capishe? I don't mean to sound insulting but I think I made it pretty clear what I meant in my previous post. Did anyone else have trouble understanding it? I'll help, this was my line "is like saying Gerrard dives all the time, it's not true". How does that mean I think Gerrard never dives?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jun 20 2007, 03:45 PM

You mean this one? "if people not enjoying him plays they dont even bother to search for his weakness.."

People will pick on him for a couple of reasons. Here are three I can think of:

a) He's a manc!
b) He's so good, he doesn't need to go down so easily - similar to Drogba
c) He's too lightweight, which is why he seemingly goes down so easily.

Personally, I could care less though if I had it my way, ANY player that dives should be severely punished. Look at video evidence and ban the cheating cunts, I don't care if it's a Liverpool player.

That being said, I personally don't look at the weaknesses of good players for no apparent reason. I am in awe of Ronaldinho and I must say, I don't really look at him play hoping to spot his weaknesses. Similar with the likes of Zidane, Hagi, Baggio or Van Basten. That being said, I don't think diving is a weakness because as you have noticed, some games are won unethically. I think diving is a crime and should be dealt with accordingly, just as feigning injury is.

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Added on June 20, 2007, 4:08 pmTry not to be so simple minded lah friend. This thread was setup to obtain votes. What? Do you expect everyone to lie? If we really believe that out of the players listed, Ronaldo dives the most, this means we are jealous? I've been calling Diouf a diving **** since he was at Liverpool, which is why we were all so glad to see him walk out. What difference does it make which jersey he puts on in the morning? Are you telling me that if he were to one day pull on a Man Utd kit, he'll suddenly not be a diving, spitting ****?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jun 20 2007, 04:08 PM

I beg to differ mate, diving is cheating? Why? Here is a web definition for cheating:

a deception for profit to yourself

Key word above is "deception". Meaning you made something out of nothing, which to me is cheating. It's the same if you clutch your head in agony when instead someones boot tapped your toe. You are trying to get the offender punished because that will profit you and your team.

I can attest to the fact that Monstar does play rugby. I do understand the point he's trying to make but when you speak of diving, you are often talking about someone going down without any contact. Comparing rugby to football is therefore a little out of context if you ask me, simply because diving often does not involve contact. It does not therefore matter if a player breaks the sound barrier or if he grows a beard running from his half to his opponents.

Once again, I think a lot of posters are going out of context here. The thread title specifically asks us who we think dives the most. It is natural for supporters of a club to want to defend their players and they do this by diverting the readers attention to other players that also dive (hence the videos and pictures of Gerrard, Viera, etc). The point is that we can only judge based on memory and though I would be the first to admit that I've seen Stevie dive (and when I say dive, I mean go down with zero contact), I also have to be honest to say that there is no way he dives more often than Ronaldo (once again I reiterate, diving to me means going down with no contact). Let's face it, you won't catch many players today bulldozing themselves through a sea of defenders in the manner of 'Big Dunc' Ferguson or even Geoff Horsfield. Most will do the 'smart' thing and do down at the slightest hint of contact, which doesn't necessarily go against the rules of the game. To go down with minimal contact is not nearly as serious a crime as going down with NO contact, which as I posted earlier, is to deceive or cheat. Droga does go down easily but often there is some contact however minimal. Gerrard's most blatant dive was against Hungary in England's pre-World Cup game and I was appalled what I saw that. Critics will also remember how he went down a little too easily against Milan in 2005 when Gattuso tapped his boot. The fact is however that there was contact, regardless of how minimal it was.

Let us first define what constitutes diving then. To me, it is when a player goes down with NO contact. What do you reckon? Going by my definition I find it laughable that anyone can say Gerrard dives more than Ronaldo. There is no really nice way of saying this, and there is no way of making it not sound like an attack. You'll have to take my word for it though, this is not an attack but merely an observation of mine. If anyone can honestly say that Gerrard dives more than Ronaldo going by my definition, then so be it. We are all entitled to our opinions. Do try however to put things in context, this is not an attack against a particular club or player. It is just that the nature of the thread encourages us to find a target.

Well there is some relevance lah. In the end, I do agree it's easier to get knocked off balance when momentum is carrying you in one direction. Going into more detail will lead us to go out of context given the variables of each specific sport.

You are missing the point of his post.

Like I said before, I was appalled the Gerrard dived against Hungary and it's not something I condone. I hated Diouf for the very same reason. I agree with you on the bold bit though. It's the reason I don't go over the top when we win because of a dodgy decision. It's part of the game but I'd much rather win it fair and square.

I see your experience in street shootouts has come in handy. Let me know the next time here is an open track day at Sepang mate.

I think that's the problem these days. Too many people accept diving as being part of the game. Is there a difference between diving and pretending to be injured? Both are done with the intention to deceive and benefit unfairly.

Yes, diving should be dealt with severely. Just because you don't get caught doesn't make it right. I disagree with everything you've said on diving.

It's a matter of perception mate. If there were only one answer, we'd have nothing to discuss.

To my recollection, Stevie G went down under NO contact in a friendly against one of the Balkan countries was it? This was pre-World Cup. Most of the time he does go down under minimal contact. So what constitutes diving now? Going down under minimal contact, no contact at all, or both?

Firstly, Drogba is a self confessed diver. Is what Rafa said of him wrong? You don't think he goes down a little too dramatically for a player of his size with this strength?

It's not something everyone fabricated. It's something he admits to doing. Correcting himself after having realised he made an error isn't going to change anything. How can you take offence to claims you go down a little easy if you admit to it? It's like a student who isn't particularly bright taking offence to someone calling him stupid.

Secondly, it isn't " The Kops". That doesn't make sense. "The Kop" is the mainstand @ Anfield. Liverpool fans are often referred to as "Kopites".

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 1 2008, 05:49 PM

I guess some don't grasp the topic. I reads "who dives the most?" and not "who dives?". Torres vs. Ronaldo? Hmm tough one

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Added on June 2, 2008, 4:29 pmExactly. Droga has actually admitted to diving and what of El-Haji Diouf. Just because he plays for Bolton now and you don't see him on telly every week doesn't mean he's not known at the 'serial diver' anymore.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jun 2 2008, 04:29 PM

Which Liverpool fan here says Gerrard doesn't dive but what is was the thread topic again? Thought so.

I notice someone else brought Torres' name into the equation and he must surely be clutching at straws here. Has Torres gone down easily before? Yes. Has anyone also noticed the times he stood up strong against bigger centrebacks? I'm not being biased here but if you watch every game he's played in, you'll notice how often he has preferred to stay on his feet while bearing down on goal. Most of his goals have been a result of him either dancing past defenders while bearing down on goal, or out-muscling defenders.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Jun 3 2008, 07:29 PM

Again, I wish to draw a distinction between going down under the slightest bit of contact, and going down under no contact at all. Gerrard went down under the slightest of contact from Gattuso. Could he have stayed on his feet had he wanted to? Probably but was there contact? Yes. He was English to perhaps the English media would not pick on him according to the conspiracy theorists. Ok, fairplay. This was however a Champions League match and I doubt the Italian media would be as compassionate. We don't read Italian you say? Well I personally do get to read translated articles from foreign press on the net. I did get to read posts from AC Milan fans that visited RAWK. None of them accused Stevie of diving. Maybe it's because Italians are used to seeing Inzaghi? Who knows?

Let's ask this question instead; which players has never gone down easily in his life before? Which player has never dived? Harder to answer these questions isn't it?

To what extent is the English media biased?

I have to admit that as an English writer, I'd find it hard to berate the same players that carry the hopes of my nation on their shoulders but aren't most journalists football fans as well? I'm sure that like any other fan, they have their favourite teams and they are biased in some ways.

Rio Ferdinand has come into bad press for this love for parties and for missing a drug test. There was no cover up I don't think. Lee Bowyer, Jonathan Woodgate and Michael Duberry were in the press for an alleged assault on an Asian student. Joey Barton is no stranger to bad press. Tony Adams and Paul Gascoigne had problems with alcohol and this was highlighted in the press. Paul Merson had drug problems and the list goes on. More recently, the English press has berated Steve McLaren and certain players for not playing hard enough.

Perhaps the English media does offer some protectionism but they can only do so much to cover obvious facts up.