My Joven used for 3years no change filter still drink with good taste. Due to CNY i changed to Panasonic water purifier TK-CS10 bought($127.5 after applying voucher $15) from Lazada Pana Shop seller from Klang. I saw Aeon or Aeon big all selling $209 and $189 accordingly which i then decided buy online which is cheaper. While Aeon Big MidValley selling Joven JP200 promo is until 22Feb for $128 with purchase and purchase its cartridge only $45(out of stock) i rather buy Lazada Panasonic TK-CS10 branded and function more well ma.... Easy to find its filter also on market.

Will receive this few days and install for my mother. Let see how it progress well in term of taste or removing odour...

As what a eSpring user weikee mention, that is a very good example, no matter what type of filter, if does not have POE water filter outside, your filter won't last long to their life time, think twice that if does not have POE water filter, the water is straight filter by your POU indoor water filter, how heavy the job for the water filter to do the filtration before we drink. It is impossible the filter can last long for such situation.

5000 L is also include for cooking and wash vege, if the user used it to wash vege and also cooking for average 4-5 ppl , it is possible it reach 5000 L less than 1 year.

This post has been edited by Ch33r: Feb 13 2018, 01:17 AM

I was wondering if 5,000 litres of the filter lifespan can be used up within 5 months (150 days) that will end up everyday you use more than 33.33 litres of water.

Assume your house got 10 persons, average per person can use 3.33 litres. Well pretty much make sense what.
As per daily recommended intake for adult is 3 litres of water per days.

This post has been edited by NightFelix: Feb 13 2018, 12:14 PM

carbon block only

how about 4 working adult and 1 baby which is mon to fri 8am to 6pm not at home...drinking office water somemore...still 5 months need to change the filter...wtf

Too many marketing gimmick in the market. Got to thank Hestati for the educational part. May be you can elaborate more on the need of chlorine in the water tank for disinfection purposes hence RO or UF is not recommended at point of entry POE to the house.

I too got bombarded by sales talk over the months and understand more how they push the sale. Businessmen will offer whatever the market demand, not what the market need. They will offer the 'best' with the 'best price' for especially for the kiasu. The more kiasu the merrier, the easier to push up the price. So long the market is convince this is the Best for your family, they will pay. Best is if you sign up maintenance contract with them like D.. water, no brainer $ making machine. Everyone like free and easy, tell us the best, we just compare the 'best' and easiest type we will pay. Few years back lot of Diamxxx water right? Hardly heard about them nowadays. Discovered recently in the exhibition from one of the sales guy that his boss was boss of Dxxx water, now gone into coffee making machine .. same concept monthly/yearly contract and they use Starbuck coffee to convince their price cheaper .. lucky aint Starbuck coffee fans else might have signed up

Another eg.the latest water heater in the market some local brand offer DC motor version. Wonder what's the need of DC motor in a water heater?? Price double compares to AC. DC is more dangerous than AC (recently many case of death due to electrocution caused by handphone charger) and now they put DC into the water heater. Wonder comply with international standards. Anyway, off topic.

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Feb 13 2018, 04:27 PM

Ok.. after further reading I'm gonna settle for those DEMA 10" housing for pre filter (for cooking).

From the pre filter going to install stainless steel housing for doulton candle for drinking water..

Tq to u and hestati.

Why not instal the 10" filter at POE? With that, you don't need pre filter at every outlet.
Take note that you must buy the 10" filter housing that comes with pressure release button.

that is low voltage DC. obviously more safer than 240v ac

staying in condo... no place to install POE... moreover those POE that need backwash

Try to eliminate the possibility.reason what cause the cartridge warning every 5mth.

Do.you install external filter ?
Are.you bought the cartridge from amway shop ?
Or try show amway staff the evidence when u bought the last cartridge.

I'm sure got.one reason why you need change every 5mth , while most of espring machine can tahan up to 1 year. You can.argue or.ask amway technician go ur hs assist you, is your right as customer

Anyone has any idea how to install water filter for a Condo? The water meter room is too small for installation and the management prohibited that...Thanks

Modify the pipe to your unit on top of your entrance. Ask plumber.

Alright, so back to our subject of filters. I will try to clarify things further. It's long so read it only if you have an interest to have better understanding of the industry. We will study RO system today, but hold on! I'm not saying RO is a must for everyone, but we will use RO as an "golden standard" if you'd like.


Intro

Water and water treatment industry is one of the most corrupt industries in the world. I'm not talking only about filters now, but also about bottled water, soft drinks as well as gimmicks like "ionizers", "live water" etc. It's an extremely profitable industry where interests of many huge corporations, governments, small players and even world organizations intersect...

Now, please get me right. I'm not a bloody communist who doesn't believe in making profit. Any business must make healthy and HONEST profits, so there's nothing wrong with that. What I find unacceptable is when a company or whole industry represents something old and simple as "super-nano-ultra-mega" advancement and is able to make 5000% profits from the lack of knowledge from ordinary people. I stress the words ORDINARY PEOPLE because it doesn't work in industrial applications. Industry is able to hire people like me, who spent years studying water treatment, so when a salesman from another "snake oil" company comes to us, he's immediately kicked out. As an ordinary consumer, you don't have this luxury, so unless you have some basic knowledge, it's easy to become a pray to a salesman. I will try my best to help you, without selling anything, but to quickly teach you how to filter BS from the truth.


Reverse Osmosis

Before you read further, please forget EVERYTHING you heard about "dead water", "we get minerals from the water" and all other crap. This is all BS and politics. At some point, some very powerful companies started losing too much money because of RO systems being implemented everywhere and public started to switch from buying SAME RO water in plastic bottles to reusable bottles, filling these up for free! Internet got flooded with "RO is bad for you" articles. They even influenced WHO, and WHO released few articles based on old Soviet articles from 1980s that were based on older research of industrial distillation systems in USSR (can check it on WHO website, I'm not making it up).

Quality RO system produces the cleanest, best drinking water, period (ok, there is also distillation, but let's ignore it for now, since it's not easily available consumer system).

But RO system does waste a lot of water. It's also very slow (50-100ml per minute), sensitive to water pressure, requires a lot of maintenance and usually has a tank... Now this tank is the weakest point of the system. This is where bacteria grow, this is where your water is sitting inside a plastic bag... no so good. There are tankless systems out there, but unless you're ok with 50-100ml/minute and waiting 15 minutes to fill your kettle, these systems are more expensive. In short, unless your water has way too many dissolved minerals, you were told by doctors to drink RO water, you're paranoid or you have special use for this system (ultrasonic humidifiers for example) - RO is a bit of overkill (my personal opinion).

But why do I even talk about RO then? Because understanding RO will make you understand any other system out there. Because of the nature of RO system, you can not play around with "nano-ultra-super", you play with it, and your RO membrane goes bust in no time. By comparing ANY system to RO, you can understand exactly what are you giving up and whether the system makes sense and whether it is overpriced.

So RO system is always the same - pre-filters, RO membrane and post-filters. Let's start with the queen - the membrane.

RO membrane can filter out pretty much everything, except dissolved gases. You can look it up online, but in short, imagine many many many layers of media, each layer is a mini filter getting rid of impurities that are washed away into the drain, the membrane is usually good for 2 years. I'd like to stress that point IMPURITIES ARE WASHED AWAY. They do not sit inside the membrane. Keep that in mind, it's EXTREMELY important for further discussion. What comes out of membrane is the final pure drinking water.

But, there is one thing membrane is scared of, and it brings us to our next point - pre-filters. Chlorine in our water can destroy our queen membrane in no time. So we need to get rid of chlorine first. This is why pre-filters normally are sediment + carbon block x 2. Sediment doesn't let large size particles to carbon blocks , 2 carbon blocks absorb all the chlorine, the rest goes to the membrane. Very simple and straight forward.

But then why post-filters? Membrane produces clean drinking water, what else is there to post-filter? Remember the tank that most RO systems has. Water sitting in the tank starts smelling and tasting bad. Tank also has bacteria inside, the bladder leaches plastic into the water, so post-filters are designed to get rid of all that. If there is no tank, there is no need for any post filters.

For 2500RM you can get quality tankless RO system with descent flow and it will outperform any non-RO system ever created. At 2000RM or so you can have quality RO with tank (though maintenance cost will be higher than tankless because of post-filters).


So now you know how a system and a price range that can get you purest drinking water, compare it to your current system or the one you want to buy. Start from the left to right. For example:

Does your system have sediment filter that you can easily wash or change? Yes - great. No - all the large, elephant size particles flow to your next filter and may either damage or block it. Does your system have a carbon block to get rid of smell, taste and chlorine? Yes - great. No - hmmm, what do you have, just a glorified sediment filter?. The simplest system would be just these 2. And it must be relatively cheap even if it contains premium cartridges and other premium components made in USA/UK, we're looking at roughly 700RM for the system and 150RM worth of cartridges per year. Also, carbon block can be modified to filter out lead and some other heavy metals, but even after heavy modifications, carbon remains carbon. It cannot suddenly become RO membrane.

But then it gets a bit tricky. Bacteria, viruses, other heavy metals, plastics etc. How are these filtered? It MUST be a filter able to remove sub-micron particles. In other words, light version of RO membrane. There are few ways to achieve that, but filter manufacturers must clearly say how they do that. You don't have to understand it, but explanation must be available. Electroadhision, ion exchange, ultra-filtration through hollow fiber etc. Not just "hey bro, magic happens inside and you get pure water". Cost of these advanced systems should be 1000-1400RM MAX!, cartridges for a year are about 350-400RM. If you're paying over it, you're getting robbed. Remember that 2000RM is a price for RO with tank, so why would you pay more for less clean water? Even if you're still, for some reason believe that "must have minerals bro", just buy a mineralization cartridge for RO. Do not ever, ever pay over 1500RM (ok, let's put it 350USD, who knows where RM will be tomorrow) for non-RO point of use system. And this is only for the one that is actually able to remove all bacteria etc, not just simple carbon+sediment.


One last, but very important thing to keep in mind is lifetime of the filter. Remember that with RO membranes, impurities get washed away constantly and yet it can last only 2 years? Any other filter that doesn't get washed can only last 1 year, no more. And sediment needs to be changed or washed few times per year. There is no way any filter directly exposed to the incoming water can last even 1 year without any kind of wash. So you know that all these "black box" filter systems get dirty quickly and stop performing.

This is it for today, hope at least few people will read it.

This post has been edited by hestati: Feb 22 2018, 04:56 PM

thank you for the detailed explanation. im keen in getting a system myself once my place is ready. is there any system with tank (hot/room temp water function is preferred) to recommend?

Thanks for the very transparent and informative write up about house hold water filter. MLM agents is going to hate you though for the revelation of max price point for clean pure water.
I have one Elken RO system. Counter top with plastic tank. Is there a way to avoid the bacteria and plastic leach from the tank ?

Used it before, maintenance fee not cheap...need change 4 filters sequencially...

This post has been edited by Ch33r: Feb 23 2018, 03:12 PM

How easy is it to clean the tank? Regular RO tank cannot be cleaned inside, but looks like your's can be cleaned? Then you have less of an issue, just clean it regularly. Also if you don't use your system for 2 days or more, empty the tank and make the system refill it. Plastic leaching doesn't happen quickly, if you regularly use your system and if the plastic is not of extremely bad quality, then you should be ok, may drop some pure silver pieces inside the tank too.

The problem with stupid plastic is that you never know.... Few years ago, there was new "big thing", Microban. Microban, based on triclosan, was promoted by salesman as another snake oil - you cover any surface with it and boom, no bacteria growth. So first, all food companies started to use it more and more, then it went silly, even pens and pencils were covered in Microban. Now, it seems that triclosan is toxic and FDA started banning it here and there.

Keep your tank clean and don't let water sit in it for too long, and you should be probably ok.

The top cover can be easily opened to access the entire tank. I usually clean the tank with paper tower without any disinfection solution. Do you think if it is ok to spray some pharmacy grade Hydrogen peroxide 6% (couldn't find the food grade h2o2) for disinfection during the cleaning ?
The plastic material looks good quality, I hope. Pure silver pieces is for disinfection right ?


Btw, it's time to replace the cartridges for my DIY standard 10" 3-stage water filter for washing/cooking purposes.

These are the retired cartridges: Stage 1 sediment filter, stage 2 Doulton ceramic, stage 3 Matrikx active carbon.

Doulton made in England, Matrikx made in USA. Can you tell if these two cartridges are real stuff?


Would be glad if you can offer your recommendation for the new replacement cartridges for the above.

Yes, pure silver for disinfection in the tank should help. And yes, you should be ok to wash it with 6% peroxyde. Commercial systems are sanitized with high % chlorine solution, but no need to do it for home systems.

Your system is actually not bad, just few comments:

1. How old is this sediment filter? Looks too clean to me. Is it 5 micron? What brand?

2. Oh... ceramic filters... I believe yours is ceramic+carbon core. So if carbon core is modified, it can take out lead and cyst, no issue there, but so can many carbon blocks. Now, the ceramic layer. Their nominal filtration rating is 0.5 micron. Bacteria can be as small as 0.2 microns, viruses are 0.02 to 0.4 microns. Filtration rating doesn't have to be small if there are some other filtration mechanisms, example - electroadhision in a filter with nominal of 2 micron can filter 99.99% of all viruses and bacteria. But there is nothing in ceramic filter that can do that. So think about this Doulton not as "magic", but rather as 0.5 micron sediment filter+modified carbon block, or just a simple 0.5 micron modified carbon block.

Not saying it's bad, just gotta know what it is. However, there is one negative to it. What's happening inside the ceramic when large bacteria gets stuck in it? It's relatively thick layer of ceramic. I never dealt with one, but I spoke to people who had and in their experience it gets blocked easily. If the flow drops, you can run sand paper over it 2-3 times, after that - change the filter.

Last but not least, is this Douton authentic? Each of their filters has a serial number that you can register on their website to verify authenticity. The one that you have should not cost less than 150-200RM in Malaysia, I see some of them selling for like 30-60 Ringgit... this is a lot less than what Doulton charges the distributors.

3. Matrikx, if it is authentic, then good choice. 1 micron, right? Also about 100RM?

Congratulations on overall good and relatively cheap system! I would just get good sediment, replace Matrikx with another one if you can get it, and sand paper over ceramic (if it's authentic you can get few more months from it). If you want to change ceramic to more efficient one, can offer electroadhision filter in the future.

Where are all the fittings and filter housings from? I would worry as much about plastic leaching from these as from your tank actually.