Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

 [Home Appliances] Water Filter/Purifier Thread V2, Drinking Water Treatment System

views
     
hestati
post Feb 3 2018, 09:37 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,256 posts

Joined: Dec 2016
QUOTE(aeiou228 @ Feb 3 2018, 02:18 PM)
Valuable info  thumbsup.gif
Can you comment on the below POE filter. The design for the built-in back wash is very interesting, minimise the requirement of control valves and unsightly messy bypass piping.
Affordably priced at RM468 and replacement cartridge @ RM48.
*
It's first time in my life I see someone backwashing melt blown filter. Not a good idea at all. You wash melt blown once and it's performance decreases by a lot. Melt blowns are never meant for backwash or any kind of wash, they're cheap and should be replaced regularly (like every 3-6 months!)

This is in fact 4.5" by 10" housing, slightly weird design so that you can only use their filter (my guess, maybe any filter will fit).

You can just get a standard 4.5" by 10" housing and install high quality pleated polyester in it. It will be just a little bit more expensive, but your flow will be much better, it will last longer and it will not degrade significantly for whole 2 years. But even pleated polyester, just take it our and quickly wash, no need to backwash.

Yes, this size might be too small for a full house, but also feasible if you don't use much water.

Price breakdown (approximate):

1. Housing with pressure release valve - 250RM

2. Quality pleated polyester 5 micron - 150RM (NSF, US made, washable, 2-3 years service life)

3. If you absolutely want melt blown filter for some weird reason, then good NSF one will cost roughly 50RM. But no way it can last 2 years. Change at least every 6 month or even more often depending on water quality.


So yes, all in all this is what I described before, just smaller and uses melt blown for some reason. For "whole house" solutions always use pleated polyester, for drinking water filters can use melt blown if change often.


Now, when they tell you ("they" including me) "it will last 3 months, 6 months etc. These are just AVERAGE numbers. It may last 1 month or 3 years depending on how bad is your water and how much of it you use. So how to determine???

The ONLY way is to install pressure gauges before and after the filter. So with new filter, the drop in pressure will be say 3 psi. 3 months after, the drop becomes 10, at 13-15 it's time to change (or wash in case of pleated polyester), means your filter is clogged. You can buy cheapest gauges, you don't care how accurate, only care to see difference in readings.



weikee
post Feb 4 2018, 08:32 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE(aeiou228 @ Feb 3 2018, 02:18 PM)
Here the final result. Minor leak, need to redo one part of the pvc connector. Not enough white tape biggrin.gif



Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image Attached Image
aeiou228
post Feb 4 2018, 10:44 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
5,867 posts

Joined: Feb 2006
QUOTE(hestati @ Feb 3 2018, 09:37 PM)
It's first time in my life I see someone backwashing melt blown filter. Not a good idea at all. You wash melt blown once and it's performance decreases by a lot. Melt blowns are never meant for backwash or any kind of wash, they're cheap and should be replaced regularly (like every 3-6 months!)

This is in fact 4.5" by 10" housing, slightly weird design so that you can only use their filter (my guess, maybe any filter will fit).

You can just get a standard 4.5" by 10" housing and install high quality pleated polyester in it. It will be just a little bit more expensive, but your flow will be much better, it will last longer and it will not degrade significantly for whole 2 years. But even pleated polyester, just take it our and quickly wash, no need to backwash.

Yes, this size might be too small for a full house, but also feasible if you don't use much water.

Price breakdown (approximate):

1. Housing with pressure release valve - 250RM

2. Quality pleated polyester 5 micron - 150RM (NSF, US made, washable, 2-3 years service life)

3. If you absolutely want melt blown filter for some weird reason, then good NSF one will cost roughly 50RM. But no way it can last 2 years. Change at least every 6 month or even more often depending on water quality.
So yes, all in all this is what I described before, just smaller and uses melt blown for some reason. For "whole house" solutions always use pleated polyester, for drinking water filters can use melt blown if change often.
Now, when they tell you ("they" including me) "it will last 3 months, 6 months etc. These are just AVERAGE numbers. It may last 1 month or 3 years depending on how bad is your water and how much of it you use. So how to determine???

The ONLY way is to install pressure gauges before and after the filter. So with new filter, the drop in pressure will be say 3 psi. 3 months after, the drop becomes 10, at 13-15 it's time to change (or wash in case of pleated polyester), means your filter is clogged. You can buy cheapest gauges, you don't care how accurate, only care to see difference in readings.
*
Thanks for your comments. I guess the small form factor is probably cater for condo/apartment. They have the option for pleated replacement cartridge too

QUOTE(weikee @ Feb 4 2018, 08:32 PM)
Here the final result. Minor leak, need to redo one part of the pvc connector. Not enough white tape biggrin.gif
*
Cool, how do you compare the piping set up to your 3M AP902 ? Neater ?

weikee
post Feb 4 2018, 10:46 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE(aeiou228 @ Feb 4 2018, 10:44 PM)
Thanks for your comments. I guess the small form factor is probably cater for condo/apartment. They have the option for pleated replacement cartridge too
Cool, how do you compare the piping set up to your 3M AP902 ? Neater ?
*
I will say about the same, but this have extra pipe for the backwash. 3M still smaller foot print, but price don't compare biggrin.gif
aeiou228
post Feb 4 2018, 10:59 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
5,867 posts

Joined: Feb 2006
QUOTE(weikee @ Feb 4 2018, 10:46 PM)
I will say about the same, but this have extra pipe for the backwash.  3M still smaller foot print, but price don't compare biggrin.gif
*
Ops ! 3M 902 can't backwash, that's why less piping and valves. Please give follow up review on the performance of the cartridge ya.
weikee
post Feb 4 2018, 11:01 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE(aeiou228 @ Feb 4 2018, 10:59 PM)
Ops !  3M 902 can't backwash, that's why less piping and valves. Please give follow up review on the performance of the cartridge ya.
*
Will get my mom input since is in her house smile.gif

Her Amway filter will be the first one to know, as previous sand filter, every 6 months need to change.
aeiou228
post Feb 4 2018, 11:20 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
5,867 posts

Joined: Feb 2006
QUOTE(weikee @ Feb 4 2018, 11:01 PM)
Will get my mom input since is in her house smile.gif

Her Amway filter will be the first one to know, as previous sand filter, every 6 months need to change.
*
Wow..! that's RM1166 per year for the replacement cartridges. . Maybe what hestati pointed out was right, the filter doesn't filter anything.
My mum's eSpring replace cartridge once a year, PoE using the old school stainless steel rocket.
weikee
post Feb 5 2018, 09:06 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
12,019 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE(aeiou228 @ Feb 4 2018, 11:20 PM)
Wow..! that's RM1166 per year for the replacement cartridges. . Maybe what hestati pointed out was right, the filter doesn't filter anything.
My mum's eSpring replace cartridge once a year, PoE using the old school stainless steel rocket.
*
Don't think that expensive, we were using the first gen Amway when facing the problem. Could be RM 400+- just the filter only. We know is the incoming because the water even after filter was causing our laundry yellowish. Not like someone here blame the water filter brand problem because it clog fast. I won't blame amway or the sand filter both not design to handle the water condition we were facing. After change to membrane the amway filter last longer than the UV bulb.




hey_there
post Feb 5 2018, 02:34 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,600 posts

Joined: Aug 2011
QUOTE(hestati @ Jan 30 2018, 04:32 PM)
Ok, this time I will post without any links or any sales.

My background is water treatment. I worked in Canada, USA and South America on various water treatment projects mainly RO projects though. I was also appointed by one of my employers to go to establish manufacturing in China, which didn't go well, but whatever.

So what a good home system must have? Right now we're talking about 3 stage system only. Why 3 stage? Surprisingly, it's the most economical and easy solution. You can do 2 stage as well, but it's not worth it, I'll explain why.

Stage 1 MUST be a sediment filter. It's cheap and it takes the first hit and you should replace it often (3-6 month). There are 3 types, string, pleated and melt blown. Just use the melt blown one. Cost for a good, USA made one is roughly 20 RM, change it 3 times a year. So 60RM yearly for this one. Choose 1 or 5 micron (I prefer 5 for better flow)

If your system doesn't have a sediment filter as a first stage, then all the large kaka goes to your first filter and reduces it's lifetime and performance dramatically.

Stage 2 is your main filter. Normally it's sub-micron, hollow membrane or other technology (in USA they don't even make UF, they have other sub-micron filters). This is the heart of your system and it's also must have. Make sure it removes: bacteria, viruses, cyst, lead, arsenic, ferrous iron, mercury, pharmaceuticals and plastics. Pretty much everything except: fluoride, chlorine, bromine, iodine and VOC. Change once per year. Roughly 160-200RM for a very good one (US made)!

Stage 3 is your carbon block. This will remove chlorine, bromine, iodine and VOC. Change once a year, roughly 80-100RM for a very good one (US made, coconut activated carbon).

So you're looking at 300-350RM per year worth of outstanding quality filters.
So see the logic here: first, remove large particles. Then, remove all nasty stuff such as bacteria and heavy metals, then get rid of bad taste and odor.

What's left? Normally it will be minerals and fluoride. But, sometimes you still have a bad taste, how come? Answer is chloramine. Nasty nasty stuff. Widely used in USA now instead of or together with chlorine, but can also form if ammonia is present in your water. You need a special chloramine carbon block and these are not cheap. EVEN THE BEST SYSTEM without chloramine filter will produce nasty water. Chloramine is not removed by any UF or sub-mic or anything else. If you have chloramine, your cost of carbon block (stage 3) becomes close to 160-200RM.

So say you don't have chloramine and let's assume you don't have any radiation (unless it's well water, hopefully not). Then what's left is fluoride. They do add crappy fluoride to our water in USA and in Malaysia (Western Europe banned it for example). You need a special filter if you want to get rid of it, so an extra stage. I personally don't care, but choice is yours.

Now to plastic leaching. If components of your system (not filters, but everything else) are made God knows where, then there are high chances that they leach chemicals into your water. Anything before stage 2, we don't care, since our stage 2 will take care of it, but anything after it goes straight to your cup. So know where each and every COMPONENT that touches the water is made. (example, does your faucet contain lead? if yes, then what's the point if filtering out all the lead before?)

Last but not least, I HIGHLY recommend a system with standard housings and filters. We call them 2.5 by 10, 2.5 by 20 and so on. Even if the manufacturer of your system jacks up the price for replacement cartridges or goes out of business, you can always buy cartridges from reputable US companies at reasonable prices.

This is it for now. If you have any questions, please let me know smile.gif
*
any brand or model that you recommend?

3M only uses 2 filtration.. which brand has 3 stage filtration?
ahray123
post Feb 5 2018, 05:26 PM

New Member
*
Newbie
21 posts

Joined: Jan 2018
QUOTE(hey_there @ Feb 5 2018, 02:34 PM)
any brand or model that you recommend?

3M only uses 2 filtration.. which brand has 3 stage filtration?
*
Highly recommend eSpring.
Reason being is not just about number of filters it has or number of layers filter it has.
Its because eSpring has certification of number of contaminants it can filter, thats the main point right?

Even if you have 1 or 10 or 50 layers of filters, but if you dont really know what it can filter, whats the point?
Not just generally "bacteria/virus/heavy metal".
eSpring has a list of 164 contaminants it can filter.

Thanks
hestati
post Feb 5 2018, 06:27 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,256 posts

Joined: Dec 2016
QUOTE(ahray123 @ Feb 5 2018, 05:26 PM)
Highly recommend eSpring.
Reason being is not just about number of filters it has or number of layers filter it has.
Its because eSpring has certification of number of contaminants it can filter, thats the main point right?

Even if you have 1 or 10 or 50 layers of filters, but if you dont really know what it can filter, whats the point?
Not just generally "bacteria/virus/heavy metal".
eSpring has a list of 164 contaminants it can filter.

Thanks
*
Ok, I do understand that Amway is MLM and all, but cmon...

Many filters just filter out 99.99% of bacteria and viruses, there is no point to list them one by one (if they are truly certified that is). Same goes with VOC or pesticides or plastics. Most filters can filter out way, way more than 140 items. And I can guarantee Amway did not test all 140 elements, no one would do this. Everyone tests for the group of contaminants, not each one individually.

And why does Amway list fluoride as beneficial mineral? I mean, we can all read and make our own conclusions, but fluoride is a very controversial subject, where most people will consider it a poison. Just FIY, adding fluoride to drinking water is not allowed in Western Europe. In fact, very few countries add fluoride and among them are USA and Malaysia.

One more question, why UV? If they say that their filter can already filter out all bacteria, then what's UV for? Don't fall for marketing tricks, always ask yourself this questions.

I already explained why you need 3 separate stages, it's not for fun, it's the most practical approach. Yes, you can combine "20 in 1" filter, it's actually not hard to do. And it will actually filter all those 20 things... for first 10L of water that passes through. After that, it will be either clogged or it's performance will drop. And dirty little secret of the industry is that's how some of those filters receive their certifications....
ahray123
post Feb 5 2018, 09:11 PM

New Member
*
Newbie
21 posts

Joined: Jan 2018
QUOTE(hestati @ Feb 5 2018, 06:27 PM)
Ok, I do understand that Amway is MLM and all, but cmon... 

Many filters just filter out 99.99% of bacteria and viruses, there is no point to list them one by one (if they are truly certified that is). Same goes with VOC or pesticides or plastics. Most filters can filter out way, way more than 140 items. And I can guarantee Amway did not test all 140 elements, no one would do this. Everyone tests for the group of contaminants, not each one individually.

And why does Amway list fluoride as beneficial mineral? I mean, we can all read and make our own conclusions, but fluoride is a very controversial subject, where most people will consider it a poison. Just FIY, adding fluoride to drinking water is not allowed in Western Europe. In fact, very few countries add fluoride and among them are USA and Malaysia.

One more question, why UV? If they say that their filter can already filter out all bacteria, then what's UV for? Don't fall for marketing tricks, always ask yourself this questions.

I already explained why you need 3 separate stages, it's not for fun, it's the most practical approach. Yes, you can combine "20 in 1" filter, it's actually not hard to do. And it will actually filter all those 20 things... for first 10L of water that passes through. After that, it will be either clogged or it's performance will drop. And dirty little secret of the industry is that's how some of those filters receive their certifications....
*
Its not about Amway or not.
Read the news below, and how many indoor water filter can really 100% filter this?

https://www.nst.com.my/news/2016/10/183918/...presence-poison

Why UV? eSpring produce mineral water, means the filter size is not as small as RO water whereby everything is filtered off.
Therefore the UV is to kill them.

Just curious, are you staying in Malaysia currently?
Cheers =)

hestati
post Feb 5 2018, 09:42 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,256 posts

Joined: Dec 2016
QUOTE(ahray123 @ Feb 5 2018, 09:11 PM)
Its not about Amway or not.
Read the news below, and how many indoor water filter can really 100% filter this?

https://www.nst.com.my/news/2016/10/183918/...presence-poison

Why UV? eSpring produce mineral water, means the filter size is not as small as RO water whereby everything is filtered off.
Therefore the UV is to kill them.

Just curious, are you staying in Malaysia currently?
Cheers =)
*
All UF or sub-micron filters produce mineral water. Any (assuming good quality of course) sub-micron filter will remove 99.99% of bacteria. Therefore there must be no need for UV. And yes, good sub-micron (UF, electro-adhesion etc) filters with quality carbon block would handle that organic compound described in the article. What wouldn't tackle it is something like a filter presented few pages up, simple sediment (only) by 3M and GE and the backwash one.

In fact, UV very often used in RO systems, but for a totally different reason, because water is sitting in the tank where it is exposed to bacteria.
In case of Amway, there are 2 options: either UV is totally redundant and is there to make filter more expensive, or the filter itself is not very effective and therefore there is UV version that's more effective.

No offense, but water filter from MLM company is not such a good idea. Again, this is just my opinion. I'm not saying it's bad, maybe it's ok. I'm just suggesting that there are better systems with lower maintenance cost and lower initial investments.
Bobby C
post Feb 6 2018, 09:17 AM

On my way
****
Senior Member
663 posts

Joined: Oct 2008
QUOTE(hestati @ Feb 3 2018, 09:37 PM)
It's first time in my life I see someone backwashing melt blown filter. Not a good idea at all. You wash melt blown once and it's performance decreases by a lot. Melt blowns are never meant for backwash or any kind of wash, they're cheap and should be replaced regularly (like every 3-6 months!)

This is in fact 4.5" by 10" housing, slightly weird design so that you can only use their filter (my guess, maybe any filter will fit).

You can just get a standard 4.5" by 10" housing and install high quality pleated polyester in it. It will be just a little bit more expensive, but your flow will be much better, it will last longer and it will not degrade significantly for whole 2 years. But even pleated polyester, just take it our and quickly wash, no need to backwash.

Yes, this size might be too small for a full house, but also feasible if you don't use much water.

Price breakdown (approximate):

1. Housing with pressure release valve - 250RM

2. Quality pleated polyester 5 micron - 150RM (NSF, US made, washable, 2-3 years service life)

3. If you absolutely want melt blown filter for some weird reason, then good NSF one will cost roughly 50RM. But no way it can last 2 years. Change at least every 6 month or even more often depending on water quality.
So yes, all in all this is what I described before, just smaller and uses melt blown for some reason. For "whole house" solutions always use pleated polyester, for drinking water filters can use melt blown if change often.
Now, when they tell you ("they" including me) "it will last 3 months, 6 months etc. These are just AVERAGE numbers. It may last 1 month or 3 years depending on how bad is your water and how much of it you use. So how to determine???

The ONLY way is to install pressure gauges before and after the filter. So with new filter, the drop in pressure will be say 3 psi. 3 months after, the drop becomes 10, at 13-15 it's time to change (or wash in case of pleated polyester), means your filter is clogged. You can buy cheapest gauges, you don't care how accurate, only care to see difference in readings.
*
Pressure gauge is the industrial way of monitoring pressure drop for filters, strainers, pipes etc. Technically correct thumbup.gif . But layman will only appreciate indicators and schedule. Layman should learn more so not to fallen to sales talks. For domestic use not sure easily available. Need to check around major hardware shops.

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Feb 6 2018, 09:18 AM
hestati
post Feb 6 2018, 01:17 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,256 posts

Joined: Dec 2016
QUOTE(Bobby C @ Feb 6 2018, 09:17 AM)
Pressure gauge is the industrial way of monitoring pressure drop for filters, strainers, pipes etc. Technically correct thumbup.gif . But layman will only appreciate indicators and schedule. Layman should learn more so not to fallen to sales talks. For domestic use not sure easily available. Need to check around major hardware shops.
*
Schedule doesn't work because everyone's water is different and we use different quantity.

Indicator I've seen before only measures how much water passed through filter.

I think I will find an installer who can set up 2 gauges and will teach people, "hey, look, this minus this more than 15, change or wash" lol

But yes, I get what you're saying, people like it super easy, big red light that says change. Even then won't change
idoblu
post Feb 6 2018, 06:30 PM

stars for sale
********
All Stars
11,308 posts

Joined: Feb 2008
Can anyone recommend an installer for 3M under sink filter? Klang Valley area

This post has been edited by idoblu: Feb 6 2018, 06:31 PM
arju
post Feb 6 2018, 09:22 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
239 posts

Joined: Jul 2011
what is setia alam water quality value? need external house filter? tq bro

This post has been edited by arju: Feb 6 2018, 09:23 PM
Bobby C
post Feb 7 2018, 11:04 AM

On my way
****
Senior Member
663 posts

Joined: Oct 2008
..

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Feb 7 2018, 11:05 AM
Krv23490
post Feb 7 2018, 12:40 PM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
2,175 posts

Joined: Mar 2016
QUOTE(hestati @ Feb 5 2018, 09:42 PM)
All UF or sub-micron filters produce mineral water. Any (assuming good quality of course) sub-micron filter will remove 99.99% of bacteria. Therefore there must be no need for UV. And yes, good sub-micron (UF, electro-adhesion etc) filters with quality carbon block would handle that organic compound described in the article. What wouldn't tackle it is something like a filter presented few pages up, simple sediment (only) by 3M and GE and the backwash one.

In fact, UV very often used in RO systems, but for a totally different reason, because water is sitting in the tank where it is exposed to bacteria.
In case of Amway, there are 2 options: either UV is totally redundant and is there to make filter more expensive, or the filter itself is not very effective and therefore there is UV version that's more effective.

No offense, but water filter from MLM company is not such a good idea. Again, this is just my opinion. I'm not saying it's bad, maybe it's ok. I'm just suggesting that there are better systems with lower maintenance cost and lower initial investments.
*
I agree, so what would brand you personally recommend ?
lemonboyz
post Feb 7 2018, 12:44 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
72 posts

Joined: Oct 2008


https://www.shopnsave.com.my/collections/bu...r-master-filter

what about this deal ? the brand ?

 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0358sec    0.38    6 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 7th December 2025 - 09:48 AM