very true, employer usually wont give chance to freshies, provided if the freshies' result r sub-par (2nd lower n below). They will mostly welcome those with better results, definitely as they would b more willing to take the risk of getting a person with better result in hope that even if they cant start work soon, they r bright enough to pick up pretty fast. in the business world, nothing starts from zero. u hv to hv something special to be competitive, an edge over the tenths or hundreds other job applicants.

part 1, i agree with you, college is college and work is work .. college seem more like a dream land or a long vacation for most ppl. Class n papers meant nothing. ONLY grade does matters which will be used as a bus ticket for entering big arse company

part 2, i dont really agree with you on this, every employer give equal opportunity, the problem is on those fresh noob it self ! Ppl offer 1.2k~1.5k, they reject, who to blame ?

most of them think they are god-like in the first place n expect 2~3k pay??! nah my foot! unless you have tons of tech skills n professional papers to back u up such as CCNA CCNP CISSP CISA CCIE CEH, then you can expect nothing less then 30k!
I started of with 1.5k on a company and my pay structure being revised 3 time in a year ...which now it's over 2k, (cant tell exact figure).... so dont put the blame on employer.

cheers

This post has been edited by nicotine: Nov 1 2006, 02:20 PM

you opinion is true but that only apply to MNC, not local mid size company.

uhh the title of your topic is a bit different from your viewpoint. Let me explain, I've been in the IT field for 8+ years, 4 of them were in states. IT sucks in Malaysia, not because I cannot find a job, in fact with my experience it is very easy to find and keep a job. The problem is IT professionals are really treated as low level personnels here in Malaysia. The Malaysian industry has got the concept of manager all wrong. This is especially true in the IT field, I cannot comment about other fields. So please note, all my comments hereforth relate to the IT field, to be precise as a software developer, even if I dont explicitly say so.

In Malaysia, a Manager is considered a senior position, one where you get promoted to through your experience and contributions. It is the next step necessary for a bigger pay check. The problem is IT is a technical field. If a technical person has a lot of years of technical experience and a lots of contributions, by promoting them to a Manager, you are causing problems for the company. First off, they are not trained management professionals, the years they accumulate in their experience are primarily in their technical field of expertise, sure they are managed so they can relate how they were manage and use that, but that is totally different from a trained management professional with real management experience. Second, even if you provide training, they will not be able to get accustomed to their new role, in fact some people might not even have the people/soft skills necessary no matter how much training you give them. This not only jeopardizes the person's contribution but also all those being managed by him/her. In fact there's a known principle to avoid in any organization, its called the Peter Principle

Next is the vicious cycle of the IT field in Malaysia. Dont ask me which came first, I dont even know, but I am caught up in it like most IT professionals. Because we have bad management in the IT field, turnover rate is quite high, people dont tend to stay long as such, companies find it hard to promote within the ranks. So some will promote loyalists, even though over the years their technical contributions on averate may be well below par than someone who has not worked all that long in the company. Again this is just carrying on the vicious cycle, as the person promoted is only contributing to bad management and high turnover.

As a strong counter case outside of Malaysia, let me say my first job was at a big MNC company in the states. The corporate structure is such a way that the technical ladder and the non-technical ladder has its own structure each with a common executive rank. For example, my software team lead actually has a higher executive rank than our manager. They follow a different corporate ladder, with my team lead in the technical ladder and my manager in the non-technical ladder. My team lead has a lot of years as a software developer hence his position, our manager has less years as a manager hence her position. However this does not change things. We still report to both with the team lead responsible for resolving technical issues and the manager for non-technical issues. Although our manager still oversee the whole project and report to upper management, she must accept any technical decisions made by the team lead. Our manager is a trained management professional, bachelors and masters in management with minor in IT. Started as a management trainee, worked up to assistant manager and through the ranks till she became a manager. Her role is to resolve non-technical problems and the overall project issues. The system just works.

Now compare this to IT in Malaysia. Manager use to be an senior technical professional. No management experience other than being managed once (which is very different from managing). Has technical professional experience but mostly deprecated as technology changes so fast. Most of the time will not accept suggested technical solutions different from what they have in mind even though they are no longer in a position to make technical decisions, but because they used to be a technical professional and is now the Manager with the final say their ego and pride will get the better of themselves. When problems arises in the future, the technical person is always to blame. Another factor, which is just my speculation, that contribute to this problem is culture. We as Malaysian has the mentality of 'The boss is always correct, regardless'. This is a very bad mentality and behavior to cultivate.

Note, this is not all companies in Malaysia, no doubt some people has good experiences. But my personal experience over the few companies I've been with has the same consistent problems. Bad management with high technical staff turnovers because the technical staff are always to blame.

Currently, I'm fortunate enough to be in a company where although my manager was promoted from a technical position, he does not behave as above. You know why? Cause he isnt Malaysian, he does not have the mentality of 'I'm the boss, my word is final'. He will accept that sometimes a technical problem can never be solved within a given time frame, forcing it will not do any good. One of the most common phrase I've heard from my past managers in Malaysian IT companies is 'I want this by XX date' regardless if it is not feasible with the given resource. That is just plain stupid and arrogant. That is why IT sucks in Malaysia, not because the fresh grads dont have enough skill, technical skills can be trained, in the IT world technology changes so fast, we often have to retrain experienced staff, but IT sucks in Malaysia because we have a vicious cycle of bad management practice causing high turn-overs which causes bad management promotion decision which cause bad management practice which cause high turn-overs, etc.

If you're a fortunate one working in a company different from this, lucky you. If you dont believe me try joining a local company, especially the local financial/banking vendors. See your life drift away as you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week because your boss says he/she wants this by 1 week when the actual requirements will take 6 months and he/she wont be reasonable because he/she is the boss.

Yes i also agree with u that some freshie is just choosy. They taught with a degree cert they can ask for better. Some even not more than 2K also don't want. But i think for IT job at least have to be 1.6K. I started from 1.8K and now is just pass 2K.

Actually some ask for more as they need to consider they staying location. U know especially those outstation. Imagine if they stay at far away from KL. They have to travel and have commitment...is hard to survive. Actually i'm wonder how those ehmm lower salary people can survive.

IT is very common in malaysia..even a non IT Graduate fellow oso know IT,example for lailai chai he..oso know..
that why i quit my IT study got for Multimedia Design now..

every employee will give chance to freshie,
it really depend on ya social skills..
non of a company will hate u..when u first working..
is all abt ur relationship,connection with them..

and then..i too agree..many IT degree holder is very choosy nowaday (maybe they born in rich family) or ( go oversea study)
they think that 1.5k too them like very cheapnish..like to compare to others..

do not..fellow ppl footstep..do ya best on ur own..
gain exp first..is the first priority..and most important..

I agree 100% and also there will be people out ther thinking that you think this way because you are not giving your 101 % to the company and are attracting negativity in the company. I should say you are just seeing the truth and voicing out the truth the American way. I should say this kind of bad management only works for people who has his WHOLE life to work ONLY. I have been in IT for many years. I have been with the people are very good and vice versa. I have also seen the worst. They become worst is because they dedicated their whole life to work and thinking that people owes them and decide they should be respected like God. And they cant accept NO for an answer. I see people with balance lifestyle with amazing leadership qualities...amazingly they are good managers. Througout my life I only seen 1. Not including those who practise the Ali/Ah Kau/Ahmad Principle the malaysian style. Enough said....this is Malaysia. I tried to change but somehow change is inevitable for some IT. Their is no unity in avoiding Ali/Ah Kau/Ahmad principle. So most graduates are doomed to join them just to survive..some barely survive.

Some leader think about win/win situation. What is win/win actually? Giving the staff 3 days off after a 7 days work without sleep? No. A positive leadership is one who give more than he/she expects one to give. Go extra mile on behalf of others.Fashion your leadership style by this wisdom from Presidden Wodrow Wilson: "I do not believe that any man can lead who does not act...under the profound sympathy with those whom he leads." Wilson means good leaders dont ask people to do what they would not do themselves. Good leaders are characterized by their ability to give more than they expect others to give. This is one postiive laws of being a good leaders. There are 9 more qualities. It has been reserached by the International working organization in the USA that without this 10 charcterisitc in a person is NOT a leader.



This post has been edited by extol: Nov 1 2006, 10:44 PM

stick to engineering, any tom, d*** and harry with quarter of a brain can do IT work.

ssssoooooooo.. what's this IT work that u're refering to?

probably the kind that your spastic penguin is doing.

so what's the kind that my penguin's doing?

Do you at all even know what you are even talking about?

IT may be so very common in Malaysia, but thing is, in addition to the grumbles of IT grads finding it difficult to find jobs, there's equally as loud grumbles on how hard it is to find competant IT staff.

You'll need to keep in mind that the IT area is rather wide, and its important to get to know the different aspects of it, and where your interest really lies so you can take your own effort to find explore more into the different specializations on your own. This will need to be done on your own initiative. Your university can probly help you should you have questions, but do not expect your university or lecturers to approach you to see what you want to do.

Yup, I agree with you on the issue of interest, if you think that Multimedia Designs is where you interest lies, then its a good idea to go for it.

hmmm...if I were to hazard a guess, your penguin is probably working for an alternate solution to fermat's last theorem. then again that's nothing compared to your highly technical and scientifically grounded IT job.

I have no idea why any universities would want to offer an IT degree, its neither here nor there. Universities are for academic endeavors, if you want something vocational, call it a polytechnic.



This post has been edited by chairmanmeow: Nov 2 2006, 01:24 AM

I'm not sure about how it was like in your college, but for me, it was practical work every step of the way. Started off with an introduction to programming in first year, then after that you're already expected to be able to pick up programming skills on your own. 2nd year onwards, lectures are all theory, and you're expected to have picked up enough additional programming skills on your own to do the practicals. So, its either you be self reliant, or you die.

Its very much the same, and even more brutal when you go out to work.

Also, its not very accurate to say that employers do not want to give chances to fresh graduates. Its more on most places are very very reluctant to give any chances to fresh graduates who know nothing apart from their course syllabus, as that shows an alarming lack of personal initiative.

Correct, Universities are for academic endeavors, of which you failed to realize the academic endaevors behind IT.

Now, take a look at the term, vocational. Why do you think universities do not offer subjects specific towards a specific technology, but concentrate more on the science and mathematics behind it all (or at least that's for Computer Science anyways).

Operating Systems design, Design Patterns, Algorithms & Data Structures, Artificial Intelligence, Formal Analysis of Algorithms, Formal Methods in Software Engineering, and so on, those are all areas where academic research focuses on.

If there's one big complain that I've got in regards to income level in Malaysia and the exchange rate, it'll be the exhorbitant rate of books and reference materials. But then again, that tend to be a pretty poor excuse these days, considering the abundance of materials available on the internet.

Like what Luqman sez, a lot of money is spent on toys rather than seriously persuing the area of one's interest (talking about professional interest here, not social interest).

Well, you need to understand the role of IT in the first place too. IT for most local companies, especially the smaller ones tend to be in a supporting role. Hence it does not make sense for most places to maintain their own full time IT staff, where they can better use the money for other things.

These are the things which you would do if you're doing computer science or engineering. My impression of an IT degree is that they would go through most things, programming, OS, networking etc but nothing very deep. hence the comment "neither here nor there".

well, that's mainly the result of capitalism, from the way I see it. It cant be denied that there's quite a number of ppl who would rather go for an easier course, and there are indeed places that capitalizes on this.

Actually, changes in student attitudes these days are pretty appaling, and its all over the world too. There was an article on CNET a year back (cant find the link anymore unfortunately) about how bad it gets now in the US. Students simply giving excuses such as, "I was too busy partying, so I just got somebody else to do the work for me" when caught for plagiarism. One professor's comments was equally as good, saying that years back he and his colleagues used to amuse themselves by listening to all sort of creative excuses given by students who got caught, but these days, they dont even bother.

Lol, ok now i get it, your beef was specific to "I.T. degree", which makes sense. Initially I though your comment was targetted at all the I.T. related field of studies which includes computer science because your earlier comments doesnt really make any sense especially in computer science studies which is very technical and scientific. I dont know what the curriculum is here in local Unis, but where I got both my bachelors and master in C.S. some of the work/studies we were doing is no where near your typical I.T. work that any tom, d*ck or harry is doing as you mentioned. Your comment is correct though about the typical I.T. degree, but it suffices for practical reasons, because to be honest, having a C.S. degree for your typical I.T. job is overkill.

employers in malaysia NEVER value their employees hard work. what they think of employees are actually slaves. they have the mindset of, i hire u, u are my slave, u do wat i told, u shouldnt have ur own time, all ur life are belong to the company, i hire u i expect u know everything, and so forth

edit: they never value the IT jobs ppl, means like programmers etc. they ONLY love those front liners, like sales...

This post has been edited by Christopher_LKL: Nov 2 2006, 09:37 AM