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 Aircon Discussion V3, Home Appliance

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halcyon27
post Dec 26 2017, 09:56 PM

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QUOTE(polarzbearz @ Dec 26 2017, 09:08 PM)
Hello! Thanks so much for your detailed analysis/response. Please find below some comments from my end:

- The unit/block is between two blocks and on the lower floors - not sure if this will reduce the heat exposure (albeit not too much I believe) during those peak periods?
[attachmentid=9459264]

- You are correct, the Living/Dining/Kitchen/Corridor is one big area with just logical split (for easier furniture planning)

- On the AC ledges - I haven't received the keys yet but I believe there's none (given the design so far which seems.. less impressive rclxub.gif)

- I noticed that in your recommendation it is more on the multi-split type, rather than inverter type. Any reason that Inverters are not recommended in the post?

- For the dimensions, I have reuploaded PDF with clearer measurements - note that it's only 90% approximated figures only as Developer did not/do not want to share the measurements, hence the need to physically re-measure after receiving keys.
[attachmentid=9459286]

- For better visualization, this blog does seem to have good pictures of the Showroom:
http://www.kinkybluefairy.net/2014/09/mala...a-condominium-1. Personally I feel that plan looks bigger than how it looks in showroom  icon_question.gif [EDIT: The showroom is a different variant without "dedicated" entrance]
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Multi split refers to multiple indoor units with their cooling provided by a single high powered compressor with individual refrigeration ports to each unit.

Inverter refers to a variable frequency operation of the compressor as contrasted to non inverter's fixed frequency. Thus cooling operation is much more accurate as well as efficient using an inverter. The procurement cost is higher but savings is already had from day one. ROI is dependent upon frequency of use.

These two concepts are independent. Single split or multi split compressors can be inverter or non inverter types.

Are AC piping already provided? If so, engage an AC specialist to do a leak test first (2 weeks). If piping are already pre-installed, go for a single split (1 compressor 1 indoor unit) rather than multi split (1 compressor n indoor units of same or different HP). Multi split piping insulation requirements must be strictly adhered to for compressor operational longevity.

Based on the combined dimensions of living, dining, kitchen and the walk way to the rooms, it's 45.91m2 or 494.17sqft. Conservatively, a minimum 3HP should suffice for the whole space. To be safe 4HP should be able to accommodate when there are more people in the house or the heat emitted during cooking. If you want 2 separate AC in each zone, perhaps assume that a higher cooling load should attend to the living area so 1.5-2HP. The dining and kitchen should use 2-2.5HP.

North facing units will have the sun rise on the right (E) and set on the left (W) during the months I mentioned but the degree of its azimuth vary through those months. If there's another development in front of your condo and they block, you may use a lower heat load factor e.g. 60 x area in sqft to derive the BTU. Otherwise assuming the worst, use a higher one e.g. 65 esp for the bed rooms. The master should go 1.5HP with piping meant for 2HP so that if you think that more cooling load should be had and if you device to upgrade later, the pipes already support such a choice. Larger pipes can be used over lower HP AC pipe spec but not the other way round.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 26 2017, 10:32 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 27 2017, 07:55 AM

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QUOTE(polarzbearz @ Dec 27 2017, 12:25 AM)
Thanks for the advice again - is Multi-Split worth it long-term wise? How much cost differences vs. multiple units of single-split?

For the cabling, it doesn't come pre-installed AFAIK. Do you have rough idea how much it'd cost for R32 / R410A respectively? Also do you have any recommended contacts that can do the installation properly? Had quite a few bad experience with "Shop" appointed contractors - they just do "tick-the-box" type of quality, as long as AC can power on (to the point of using cheap power cables causing it to burnt)

I did a rough calculation - seems like the most cost-efficient way is to put both compressor @ balcony rather than pulling them to Yard (i.e. the blue + red plan in the pdf); or to relocate the room's A/C unit so that all 3 rooms can be powered via Yard in case if balcony not enough space etc. (i.e. the red + yellow plan in the pdf)

That makes it in total:
- 2 * 4HP outdoor multisplit unit
- 2 * 2HP indoor unit
- 2 * 1HP indoor unit
- 1 * 1.5HP indoor unit
- approx ~15450mm of piping length + some wall hacks

Do you have rough idea how much above will cost (for my budgeting purposes)?

Thanks very much again!!  thumbup.gif notworthy.gif  notworthy.gif

[attachmentid=9459571]
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No idea about the pricing but definitely at least 30% more utilising multi split. This thread in the other local forum has actual experience of home owners who used them. In LYN, kimsim used to use a York system 2 multi split non-inverter as shared here before he moved down to SG.

My experience bears out that if the correct method of insulation over AC piping is used viz single insulation jacket per pipe, the AC will operate at its rated cooling capacity with the compressor being quiet. Combine that with regular periodic maintenence, it will serve you well for a long time. I've used a Sharp inverter single split using such piping and 4 years before I moved out, the indoor unit is hardly serviced at all except for the filter mesh. The AC features a clean mode kills the mould so the AC and blower is clean. After every use, we use the clean mode to dry the blower and cooling fins which turns off by itself after 30minutes.

Try another option:
MBR single split 1.5HP

With either of the below:
Dining and bedroom use a system 2 (2.5-3HP)
Living and bedroom use system 2 (2.5-3HP)
OR
2 bedrooms use a system 2 (2HP)
Living and dining use a system 2 (3HP)

Compare this placement vs the others that was suggested. If going Multi split, Daikin and Fujitsu should be the brand to try. The other would be Toshiba if they are locally available. Their single split inverter is quite value for money as seen here and have good features esp clean function.

R32 would be a little pricier to begin with but should be ok par when R32 refrigerant availability is better. R410a is 50% R32 + 50% flame retardant. R32 has a lower Greenhouse gas potential index of 675 compared to R410a.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 27 2017, 02:52 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 27 2017, 02:28 PM

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QUOTE(woohwaah @ Dec 26 2017, 02:52 PM)
Hi, can anyone recommend a good installer in JB area ? Been reading through the thread and it seems like good installers are not very common. Thanks.
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Ping kimsim and see if he's had any contacts.
halcyon27
post Dec 28 2017, 03:53 PM

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QUOTE(cyclone9 @ Dec 28 2017, 10:35 AM)
My aircon contractor just install aircon cooper but I found bathroom pipe are was not insulated.
[attachmentid=9464425]
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It will drip due to humid air in the ceiling. Humid area need thicker insulation like 1/2" on top of the pipe diameter. Some do even use 3/4". Some AC supply shops sell insulation by 6' run. Perhaps you might want to find an alternative contractor to rectify that by changing that section to thicker insulation if possible.
halcyon27
post Dec 29 2017, 06:25 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Dec 29 2017, 12:44 AM)
do you know if Inaba coiled copper pipe are easy to carry around with car without needing a van or truck?

i know those straight ones must use van/truck but i've never seen coiled pipes in actual yet.
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It's quite compact. View it from the pictures or the youtube videos.
halcyon27
post Dec 29 2017, 01:25 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Dec 29 2017, 12:26 PM)
hi bro, do you know if Inaba 1hp & 1.5hp 0.8mm thick pipe requires different pipe bending tool to bend? most installers only use 0.6mm so just wondering if they have the tool to bend 0.8mm if not they might just use bare hands which defeats the purpose of getting better pipes.

also the flaring tool, need dedicated tool for Inaba's 1hp & 1.5hp 0.8mm or just need the correct tool head?

are these bending & flaring tools available in shops selling Inaba?
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Flaring tool and pipe bending tool should be standard I think but ask the shops to advise or confirm. A pipe bending tool is only needed for bending rigid copper pipes. For coiled piping less of an issue unless there's a tight bend like a u-turn. Sounds like you're DIY-ing.

QUOTE(advocado @ Dec 29 2017, 12:56 PM)
anyone know if it's possible for normal car to carry 1hp AC from warehouse? the compressor & indoor unit usually packed together or separate?
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How many are you buying? If only 1, so long as your car provides flat back with the back seats folded down and have wide access width and height wise to fit the compressor, a sedan definitely no, a hatchback like Jazz, barely for 1HP. A van or MPV with the above feature mentioned is suited for this.
halcyon27
post Dec 29 2017, 02:07 PM

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QUOTE(toonny @ Dec 29 2017, 02:05 PM)
Most likely is separate. I just bought a 2.5HP unit and opted self-collection at the warehouse.
A 1hp unit should be able to fit into sedan car as like what Halycon mentioned.
[attachmentid=9468393]
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Sedan no. Hatchback like Jazz or Livina can. It has to have height clearance.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 29 2017, 02:08 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 29 2017, 04:20 PM

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QUOTE(toonny @ Dec 29 2017, 03:41 PM)
hmm.gif  Coz i've seen ppl carry aircond with their sedan car too..  rclxms.gif
it's a Honda City btw.. Blower was at the rear trunk, compressor sitting inside cabin..  thumbup.gif
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It's door can open that wide?! 👍
halcyon27
post Dec 29 2017, 10:41 PM

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QUOTE(lepo @ Dec 29 2017, 10:39 PM)
Already survey for installation, since my house no cooper tube but already got electrical point for ac.

Installation fees go from 300 to 350.

The price is same whether i buy ac with the installer or not.
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Get a reliable installer. Shop appointed one's can be hit or miss. Where are you located?
halcyon27
post Dec 30 2017, 02:06 PM

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QUOTE(PJusa @ Dec 30 2017, 12:57 PM)
Need to replace my aged insulation foam. Where do you guys get a good one in KL/PJ?
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If you're in PJ, Kelana Jaya Allco Parts or SS2 Sri Siam row or Paramount (where Wong lighting and Giant is) intersection traffic light turning right on the way downslope towards the junction where the mosque is there's one on the row of shops (amidst lots of electrical supply and curtain shop) on the left before the Caltex station.

Might as well try one jacket per pipe.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 30 2017, 02:16 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 30 2017, 02:28 PM

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QUOTE(PJusa @ Dec 30 2017, 02:19 PM)
cool thanks! I was hoping i can get the jacket type somewhere so i can remove and replace. will try them later today or monday.
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One more in Sec 19/3, Gain City (under Aconland) same row as the corner Nanking vegetarian restaurant facing the hill slope where Kanna Curry House is situated.

If you can, go for K-flex (Italy) then Superlon or Insulflex.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 30 2017, 02:33 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 30 2017, 02:37 PM

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QUOTE(PJusa @ Dec 30 2017, 02:35 PM)
that is also nearby - cool many thanks. i almost ordered this from lazada (https://www.lazada.com.my/m-d-building-products-50164-1-inch-by-6-feet-self-sealing-tube-pipe-insulation-53001801.html?spm=a2o4k.searchlist.list.8.3b81eaa8FJwB6C) but i will check those out.
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See here. You may need insulation tape to go with it. Get 3/4" thickness outdoor and 1/2" thickness indoor supposing the pipes are accessible. Protect the insulated pipes outdoor with a conduit as much as possible if desired so that the exposed part is shorter.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 30 2017, 03:37 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 30 2017, 03:09 PM

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QUOTE(PJusa @ Dec 30 2017, 02:47 PM)
this is great. thanks a bunch. I only want to replace the outdoor insulation for now - indoor not accessible. next round of installation i will get my own insulation and give to installer smile.gif
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Ensure that each pipe is sleeved individually as it should be as done worldwide. If SG are doing that in their residential, no way the physics is the exception over here.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 30 2017, 03:09 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 31 2017, 10:33 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Dec 31 2017, 08:06 AM)
before Malaysians start to move forward with individual sleeved, they need to learn to separate copper pipe with wires 1st.
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Not all AC installers do that at least not those I use. Doesn't make sense also.
halcyon27
post Jan 1 2018, 09:24 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 1 2018, 08:20 AM)
just wondering. does the pipe & cable have to run from a hole behind the indoor unit, or is it possible for the pipe & cable to run on the same wall the indoor unit is sitting on so i can route them directly upwards on the same wall?

i know if do this means there needs to be more space between the indoor unit & the wall?

also by doing so the bend upwards would be sharper & very short due to clearance between indoor unit & wall?

reason doing so is i want to run the pipes higher so it can be hidden with plaster, if only go upwards after tru the hole there will be 1 section that cannot be covered due to being too low (close to height of door frame).
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What you suggest is fine although bending the pipe upwards must be within the installation manual acceptable curve radii limits and of course kink free. The part outside can be hidden in a PVC casement. This is prevalent in SG and over here. Even if it's above the door you can run the pipes and electrical ok the side with greater clearance. Otherwise if really tight, create a false box 8" deep above the door and have the AC mount on the false box with a 6" rectangular man hole for the pipes.

What you suggested is great as it means you're taking the precaution to ensure that it's not accidentally drilled into.

A friend had an a ex-colleague with a dud AC. Everything was never used at all as it is unusable because the indoor cable was drilled where they extended a wall to make way for a storage room as an after thought (very dangerous esp in situations like this). The AC was never used since day 1 for decades because it would be messy to hack the wall and not to mention take out and redo the partition. Complicating matters that dissuaded them to rectify was that the affected AC compressor is not located on the same floor.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Jan 1 2018, 09:29 AM
halcyon27
post Jan 3 2018, 09:38 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 3 2018, 08:09 PM)
bro, forgot if i asked this question, but are pipe bender standard for 1hp & 1.5hp (0.6mm-0.8mm) or do they require 2 different sets? and Inaba pipe are glued together so you will need to bend them together?
same question for flaring tool, do they need dedicated tool or the same tool irregardless pipe thickness?

just wondering how your contractor did it last time.
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I didn't observe as I was working whilst they installed at my home. Search and see. A Paircoil is soft enough to bend together but if it's bent to do a u turn, I think the tool I linked in the your AC thread may come in handy.
halcyon27
post Jan 3 2018, 10:54 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 3 2018, 09:45 PM)
ah i overlooked the link can you repost? you did mention bend with hand before just wondering how to do it safe.

also about the flaring tool, is it standard tool for 1hp & 2hp irregardless of pipe thickness?

also if the pipe length is long (but still within AC limit), do we need to add more refrigerant or any extra stuff or things like pump to be installed?

btw do you know how to do vacuum test on installed pipe? what do we need?
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Bend with hand is possible with paircoil but not to the extent of u turn without specialise tool. Just go to your control panel and search for your topics will do.

Wah...😁 you look me too up (over estimated my abilities). I'm just an informed user not an AC installer. I'm not sure about the tools. The flaring nut depends on the pipe sizes. The manual will state what to use. Best is to leave that to the installer.

Pre-charged length stated in spec and top up rate per extra length all in installation manual.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Jan 3 2018, 10:57 PM
halcyon27
post Jan 4 2018, 12:00 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 3 2018, 11:16 PM)
somebody mention about vacuum pump during installation do you know what it is for?

so you don't know how they do vacuum test?

i got watch youtube how to do flaring but i don't know the tool is standard just use different head for different pipe?

1 important question i forgot to ask, the copper pipe run, does it have to be exact length, cannot leave extra length to be safe like wires?
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I've mention what it's for and described it briefly how it's done. The installer is the who carries it out.
halcyon27
post Jan 5 2018, 08:27 AM

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QUOTE(WahBiang @ Jan 5 2018, 12:22 AM)
Possible to install an inverter aircond on a non-inverter piping? any issue? if wan change piping, do we need to hack the wall or very easy to change?
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It's discussed at length here.
halcyon27
post Jan 17 2018, 02:21 PM

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QUOTE(okuribito @ Jan 17 2018, 12:10 PM)
Appreciate some advice from aircon sifus and enthusiasts. Looking to replace 20 yearold aircons in my 20-something floor apartment.

Was told that because aircons nowadays use different gas that operate under higher pressure, I won't be able to use the existing concealed piping. Was told new piping need to be laid. The installer suggested installing at the balcony & running the copper pipes/wiring as shown in the attached drawing.

Normally, I see that the piping with the black foam insulation runs on the exterior wall. But because the installer says it's to dangerous to instal outside, he suggest this. I notice many right angle turns in the piping to go around the pillar and the walls - Will that be a problem?

Also, it is ugly and not ideal. I'm also afraid if later got leakage or condensation on the pipes that run inside Room 1 to Room 2's blower? What's the best trunking material to conceal the ugly pipe? Since this is a low value rental unit, I dun want to spend on plaster ceiling .

Another question, so far the original concealed water outlet has not given any problems & installer suggest use back the old water outlet. To be safe, is there anything I can ask them to do to make sure no blockage? Does jelly accumulate in the water outlet and if so how to get rid of jelly?

Also appreciate suggestions on cheap & reliable 1 hp models, hopefully with silent compressor operation.

Thanks

ps:
compressors will be mounted at a level higher than the blowers
green = walls & one big ass pillar between living & Room 1
red = piping between compressor & blower units

user posted image
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Where were the old compressors placed? See this post.

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