I don't think so "pride" is the right term to be used here though.

kron_ka is not wrong in disliking how the church utilizes the tithes and although the church has the ultimatum in deciding how the tithes are being allocated, I still think each individual has the right to inquire where these funds go. i understand that the 10% belongs to God and once you part with money, you must not be concerned on how it's being spent because technically speaking otherwise it seems like you have placed too much emphasize on money than anything BUT we have to know, the individual behind the control of the funds is a human being capable of temptation.

I'm sure everyone here knows the 10% is not OUR money but we still need to ensure that the purpose of the tithes are being use properly. If we have knowledge that the tithes are being utilized inefficiently, must we continue funding them?

When it comes to money, I don't think anyone can be impartial.

I was born as a Christian and my parents were devoted Christians, they did everything according to the book and we never question anything and it was on one fateful Sunday session that my dad finally saw what was that church is all about. The pastor's wife (who led the Mandarin session) called out to my dad for a "special" prayer in front of the crowd and told my dad "if my dad stop giving tithes then God will take away everything God has given to us".

I have no idea how the pastor's wife knew that my parents stop giving tithes (probably they had a list) but it was a period where we were very financially unstable. At that point, I somehow think the church don't practice what they preached. We stopped going to church after that.

I returned a few years later only to find that it is as if nothing changes, in fact, it seems like it became worst.

The pastor has 3 children in which 2 of them "received the calling" to serve God (Amen to that) but what i dislike is that they started producing recordings of them and selling it within church compound. I find that they were "hard-selling" them. This is not the worst.

I knew that the pastor and his wife goes for missionary trips (which is fine by me) but what I find uncomfortable is that every time they go, their whole family goes with him and it's not to 3rd world countries but European countries such as the Czech, Germany etc.

My question is, was it necessary for the entire family to go when it should only be the church leaders?

Cessasionism or Continualist, those are just terms that has no meaning. Sugar coated ideologies being exploit by selfish individuals for their own benefit in the pretense of serving God. With that said, that does not mean that I don't agree there are still good pastors left but eventually, they will stray when they see the finances flowing in.

I don't feel disgruntled after tithing, I just feel like the funds were being abused by the individual whom the people trust. My purpose of tithing was so that they could be advanced to expand God's Kingdom and not to make prosper the pastor and his family's welfare. I was delighted when the pastor reported that monies were being advanced to support small churches growth in rural areas like those in Africas etc. THAT is supposed to be the purpose.

What's funny is that the pastor in my previous church preached if the leader is prosperous then he can lead the followers to the same route. To my surprise, everyone just shouted Amen. What logic is that? For what I know, the pastor had bought a new 3 storey bungalow and changed multiple cars and also brought his entire family overseas on "missionary trips" and yet, I still see members driving an aged Mazda 3.

It may not be fair but take example of the City Harvest case, I do not know which school you subscribed to but I saw a clear cut breach of trust which is criminal in nature and YET, the church goers went on and trust the leader. They call it faith but I deemed that such obedience was because they fear, fearing that they may anger God if they stopped doing what the leaders told them.

My point is this, if someone feel "disgruntled" (in your words) when tithing, this is not because they are not in sync with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not compel you to do wrong things instead it warns you that something is not right so when an individual feel that they are tithing to the wrong church, then it is the Holy Spirit telling you something. One must not be advised to console it and deemed such discomfort as a sign of moving away from having faith in God.

One must always remember. We placed our faith in God and not in the pastor. They are not God.

That was my understanding as well and I find the church is in absolute contradiction. At one point they are preaching mercy and at the other, telling you things like this.

As far as I know, I didn't remember believing in Hitler or a socialist God.

Whatever it is, I stopped going to church for a few years now but my faith for God is still strong. In spite of my deliberate absenteeism, God has never left me and has been with me along.

Nowadays, I feel like people going to church is not to worship God but rather to social and "show off" under the veil of "fellowship". The fact that people gossip about each other immediately after the sermons within the church compound sickens me.

I have never given up in God and I don't I will ever because I have been through so many events in my life which I can only account in supernatural ways, events in which if God wasn't in intervention, would not be possible so yeah. He's the way of life for me.

I don't plan on going to a church anytime soon because I don't feel the need to. I have been to a few churches before and they are all the same (no offense). They are very good to you but once they see you as a regular attendee, they ignore you like they have never known you before. I personally don't mind how the treat me, I'm just appalled in their attitude capable of change so fast. A hypocrite if you may.

I also hated the fact that church attendees spent more time talking about people rather than worshiping. On average I think they spent longer hours in the cafeteria that in the worship hall . Church is not a social club.

I know God is almighty and I am inclined to make this statement but I think God did not foresee that humans can evolved to this stage of decay. The passage in Hebrew was made in the era in which people are not engrossed with their own selfish desires and self-indulgence. To be honest, I am ashamed to have admit that most Christian made Christianity sounded like MLM, I understand that it's good to have spread the good news to people but some Christians are just too aggressive and radical, telling people straight to their face that if they do not take Christian into their heart, they will be condemned to the fires of hell for eternity, though true but.... just too, radical .

These Christians are taking the "recruitment" business far too seriously. It's like they are competing with each other as to who has the bigger downline -.-

I will go to Church eventually but until now, I still haven't find the calling to go to the right Church because every where I go, they remind me of each and every church I have been through and has failed me. So for now, it's just between God and me.

After all, this relationship is personal and to me other than this, everything is just optional.

I used to take all these very personally until one day I realized there's no point in fretting because by keeping it in my mind, it only makes me dread going to church. I couldn't be bothered with their attitude anymore but the character of my leader is really unacceptable.

I'm not planning to go to any church as of now because I think i've exhausted all my quota for searching. I still couldn't find the right one until now may be because I was searching it through my human eyes. So, i'll just wait for the calling which I'm sure will arrive. I can afford waiting because I'm not straying away from Him.

The wickedness of man....

I did not overlook both the theories, in fact, these theories did not come into consideration for me at all. It was you who brought up the theories with hopes to persuade me in that i shouldn't be bothered in how my tithes are being utilized (when the fact is obvious, it could be abused). I don't remember that i dragged the Holy Spirit into consideration as well but since you mentioned Continualism then I might as well talk in the same context as you so that you can understand better where I am coming from.

I'll never know whether it was the Holy Spirit talking to me or not, in fact, I don't think even think the Pope could swear in the name of God that the voices he hears in his head is the Holy Spirit or the Devil that is talking to him, he just needs to have faith that it was the Holy Spirit and hope for the best. The Holy Spirit is not a being, it's a manifestation hence it does not possess the likeness of men, it's an intuition, a feeling, a "hunch". It signals you when something is not right.

Have your pastor ever suggested to you that whenever you are in doubt, pray and eventually an answer will come to you? If you do not have an inner peace then do not proceed.

I'm sure you have been through this experience before and do you hear voices in your head which you are sure it's the Holy Spirit or you just suddenly feel that it's right to do what you have in mind? It's a feeling of "you know it's right". That's the Holy Spirit, it's a manifestation, something intangible, something cannot be seen. You require "faith" to believe in the Holy Spirit. Believing in the things unseen.

Do not give in because you fear because fear comes from the Devil. That I can assure you.

With that in mind, I can now answer your question.

1) how can I be sure that it was not the Devil that is asking me to stop tithing?
- very simple and you don't require 50 days of silent meditation to get an answer. when the facts are presented to you right in your face telling you that the tithes is now subject to the question of being abuse for certain particular individual gains and you feel uneasy. do you think it's the Devil who tells you to stop and start looking for another "shepard"? if that is your understanding then your idea of the Devil isn't all that bad.

- if we already feel uneasy during tithing and we are compelled to continue because we fear we may anger God then i need to confirm with you if we are referring to the same God. My God doesn't care if i tithe or not and He still stood by my side during my lowest point of life and lifted me up. My blessing is not a consequence of the monetary contribution I make to the church.

2) the bribery question
- your hypothetical question does not make sense and it's a bad example because it's requires you to question your morality rather than anything else. your moral obligation suggest that you should/must bribe to save the kid. there's nothing religious here. The decision is in your hands, the Holy Spirit or the Devil doesn't care whether the boy lives or die or what decision you choose. You make that decision based on your conscience and eventually you will choose to bribe because you fear the social repercussion against you if you didn't not.

The problem with many Christians nowadays is because they do what the general public think it's right but the biggest compelling force is fear. Pastors occasionally inflict fear subconsciously into the minds of people telling that if they don't tithe then prepare to go to hell when they die. People generally is afraid of death and the unknown so to many 10% is not a big amount so they rather pay that 10% than risk facing the unknown, they got "nothing to lose" and they have in mind, "if the tithe is abused, it's the pastor to answer, not me" but little that they know, they are the ones contributing to the abuse.

Tithes must come willingly, if it's given with so many qualifications, it's not a tithe, it's an obligation.

How do you think the City Havest scandal come about?

If we have the duty to spread the goods news then aren't we also have the duty to make sure that we don't feed the wrong shepard.

Let me make a daring assumption, can i say that the pastor you go see every Sunday morning is in fact the Devil himself? You won't know, you just believed that he's not because he's in a church. You don't hear voices in your head telling you "your pastor is not the Devil" but you have the feeling in you that you know he just isn't.

That's my point.

It's an obligation for a Christian to go church, this as much I know.

I also know that there's no perfect church, I just want to find a church with the less hypocrites possible because the previous ones I have been to is just waaaay to much to handle. No rush though. I just want a church in which I can find peace going to.