Lets begin this section with a verse :

"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets." - Amos 3:7

Another PATTERN of interest:

The gaps between the Tetrads!

Is it significant that the spacing in between the tetrads is

632 years, 46 years, 17 years, 632 years, 455 years, 17 years, 46years, ???

All except one are the same.

Is this simiilar to the 333 years in between major comets we saw with the Black Plague in 1347, the Great Plague of Vienna

in 1680, and Comet ISON in 2013?



ISON, LOVEJOY, LINEAR, ENCKE, NEVSKI, BORISOV, P5

I'll just leave the comets research up til this point

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The Final Signs of Christ's Return



What can we expect from the Tetrads in 2014 - 2015 ?



Take a careful look at the 2014 - 2015 Tetrad, compared to all the other Tetrad sets. (see complete chart above) Can you see the difference?

What is the major difference between this upcoming Tetrad and all the rest... can you see?

This upcoming Tetrad, according to these charts, is the only time there has been a total solar eclipse also in the time frames of the tetrads. The charts above may not be complete, but it seems as though there are two extra SIGNS here that are also significant. Not only one, but TWO total solar eclipses... SIGNS TO THE WORLD!




As i mentioned earlier, the Blood moons (Lunar) are said to be signs/omens to Israel, and Solar eclipses are said to be signs to the world. Two Solar Eclipses embedded in the Four Blood Moon Eclipses to confirm that this world is going to be rocked like never before! The world is about to change forever! Glory to Yeshua HaMashiach



Pastor Steve Cioccolanti explains about the 2015 eclipses

There are 2 more eclipses still to go, before this set of Blood Moons (8th since Christ) comes to completion.

A PARTIAL solar eclipse falls on the Feast of Trumpets** 13th/14th of Sept 2015 & the final lunar eclipse/blood moon falls on the Feast of Tabernacles, 28th of Sept 2015. The last blood moon will be visible from Jerusalem on the Feast of Tabernacles . There is another feast that falls between these two events, although there are no signs in the heavens, the Day of Atonement/Yom Kippur falls on Sept 22nd/23rd.

That means the sun will be blocked on the 13th/14th & the moon turns red on the 28th.

Consider the following verses:

"The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes." - Joel 2:31

"The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." - Acts 2:20

http://www.ldolphin.org/DayLord.html

https://www.thisisyourbible.com/index.php?p...how&mediaid=489

mobileapps pundex bananajoe Binyamin onomatopoeia

This post has been edited by 14-9-2015: Aug 5 2015, 07:40 AM

Feast of Trumpets 13th/14th Sept 2015



What is the Feast of Trumpets?

In the autumn of the year and on the first day of the Tishrei(Tishri) moon, trumpets are blown to announce the Hebrew holiday of Rosh Hashanah/Yom Teruah. Rosh Hashanah means the "head of the year" and thus the holiday is referred to as the Jewish New Year.

Biblical Christians refer to it as the Feast of Trumpets. It is the 5th of the 7 Feasts of Israel.

It is also the first (of the three feasts) to begin in the Fall Season. The last three holy convocations or "festivals" that the Lord commanded the Jewish people to observe are the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement/Yom Kippur and the Feast of Tabernacles/Sukkot.

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation." - Leviticus 23:24

“On the first day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work. It is a day for you to blow the trumpets, and you shall offer a burnt offering, for a pleasing aroma to the Lord: one bull from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish; also their grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil, three tenths of an ephah1 for the bull, two tenths for the ram, and one tenth for each of the seven lambs; with one male goat for a sin offering, to make atonement for you; besides the burnt offering of the new moon, and its grain offering, and the regular burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offering, according to the rule for them, for a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the Lord." - Numbers 29:1 - 6

The blowing of horns marked a serious time to prepare for the Day of Atonement. This is also why this time was called "Ten Days of Repentance", or "10 days of Awe". The Feast of Trumpets leads up to the Day of Atonement which falls on the 23rd of Sept 2015.

The Jubilee year begins the following day, on the 24th of Sept 2015.


What is the significance of the Feast of Trumpets to the Church(Christians & Messianic Jews)?



All of the Old Testament Holy Days (Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread, The Feast of Weeks, The Feast of Trumpets, The Day of Atonement, The Festival of Tabernacles and the Last Day) were, and continue to be, living symbols of the stages of God’s Plan of Salvation for all humanity. Those events are now in progress, and true Christians are the manifestation of it.

In the New Testament, it is interesting to find that the second coming of Jesus will include the sound of a trumpet.

In the Christian world, many observe this festival for its Christian prophetic application – the Rapture of the Church.

All the Spring Feasts were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming.

All the Fall Feasts picture the Second Advent, and the Feast of Trumpets is the first of the fall feasts, picturing the Rapture.

Now there are more feasts to be fulfilled with the second coming:

Yom Teruah (Rosh HaShanah) / Feast of Trumpets
The Rapture; the last trump; wedding of the Messiah; New Moon; Open Door

Yom Kippur / Day of Atonement

Sukkot / Feast of Tabernacles (Booths)

pls refer to my earlier post : Jewish Feasts of the Lord

Another name for Rosh HaShanah is ‘Yom HaDin’, the Day of Judgment. The righteous are separated and will be with God.



This is known to us as the Rapture. The wicked will face the wrath of God during the tribulation period.
(If the 7 years of trouble are near, it means the rapture of the church is even nearer!).

The shofar blown on Rosh HaShanah is known as the last trump, which the apostle Paul mentioned,

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17.

At this time, the believers in Christ will escape the tribulation on earth and will be taken to Heaven in the Rapture along with the righteous who had died before this time.



The gates of Heaven are opened on Rosh HaShanah so the righteous nation may enter,

"Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in." -Isaiah 26:2

"Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the Lord: This gate of the Lord, into which the righteous shall enter. "
- Psalm 118:19-20

Because the gates of Heaven are understood to be open on Rosh HaShanah, this is further evidence that the Rapture of the believers in Christ will take place on Rosh HaShanah.

One of the reasons for blowing the shofar is to proclaim the resurrection of the dead. The resurrection of the dead will take place on Rosh HaShanah.

The apostle Paul tells us that the resurrection of the dead will be “at the last trump.”

" Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…" - 1st Corinthians 15:51-52

The Feast of Trumpets, through careful study depicts nothing less than the return of Jesus Christ for His Church at the last trump, just before God pours His wrath and judgment on a sinful and Christ rejecting world.

http://watch.pair.com/rosh-hashana.html




The Blessed Hope


Let's begin with a verse:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." - Mark 13:32

What does "NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY OR HOUR" mean?

But that is exactly what is happening, within the Church of Christ, worldwide. Most people have absolutely no idea where we are on God's End of Days timeline. Why? Because of one phrase Jesus said... "No man knows the day or hour." This seems to be the "catch phrase" everyone uses to justify laziness, apathy, and a lack of diligence in their Bible studies. No one can know, so what's the point in trying to figure anything out? Whatever will happen will happen, and we can't change it, so what's the point? Is that the reaction Jesus was hoping to produce in His disciples when He said "No man knows the day or the hour?"

Before we get into our timeline, we need to cover this reasoning, because its not only important for us to understand where we are in the timelines... Jesus commanded us to know!

"Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. He answered and said to them, “When it is evening you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red’; and in the morning, ‘It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times." - Matthew 16:1-3


Yom Teruah is the only festival that no man knows when exactly it will occur. This is due to the fact that it begins on the new moon. The new moon was sanctified when two witnesses see the new moon and attest to it before the Sanhedrin in the Temple.

This sanctification could happen during either of two days, depending on when the witnesses come. Since no one knew when the witnesses would come, no one knew when the Feast of Trumpets would start.

On the 30th of each month, the members of the High Court assembled in a courtyard in Jerusalem, where they waited to receive the testimony of two reliable witnesses. They then sanctified the new moon. The new moon is very difficult to see on the first day because it can be seen only about sunset, close to the sun, when the sun is traveling north. So, looking for a very slim faint crescent moon, which is very close to the sun, is a very difficult thing to do. If the moon’s crescent was not seen on the 30th day, the new moon was automatically celebrated on the 31st day.

When Jesus says you won't know the day or the hour, He's telling you it's the Feast of Trumpets because that was known as the feast where no one knew the day or the hour that it would begin.

The new month begins when the crescent of the moon can be seen.

Sometimes it falls on the 29th, other times on the 30th

For this reason, Yom Teruah is always celebrated for two days. These two days are celebrated as though it is just one long day of forty-eight hours. The reason that it is celebrated for two days is because if they waited to start the celebration until after the new moon had been sanctified, they would have missed half the celebration because the new moon can only be sanctified during daylight hours. The command seems to be that we know the season, but not the day or the hour (Matthew 24:32-36).

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." - Matthew 24:36


The thought of "but my Father only [knows]" is also another Jewish idiom. It comes from the Jewish wedding tradition where the engaged groom would be working on his future place for his bride under the auspices of the groom's father - the one who arranged the marriage. The groom would not come for his bride until his father checked off that everything was ready at home. Hence, when people would ask the groom-to-be if he was ready, he would respond "only my father knows..." The groom may have a very close idea, though.



https://gracethrufaith.com/end-times-prophe...-or-the-hour-2/

http://informedchristians.com/index.php/Ar...ast-of-trumpets







Pastor Steve Cioccolanti explains about the next event on God's calendar : the Harpazo (ἁρπάζω) of the Church

Strong's Concordance : 726. harpazó : to seize, catch up, snatch away








Pastor Steve Cioccolanti teaches the timeline of the book of Revelation.




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"What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' - Mark 13:37

This post has been edited by 14-9-2015: Aug 5 2015, 09:56 PM

What will be happening in the month of September 2015?

secular events :

- United Nations General Assembly (UN)

will meet to vote on recognizing a "Palestinian State" . starts on Sept 15th


- Pope to address U.S. Congress

starts on Sept 24th


- Reactivation of CERN's Large Hadron Collider

starts on Sept 23rd


- Operation Jade Helm

ending on Sept 15th


Jewish events :

- Elul 29 (last day of the Hebrew calendar) on 13th Sept

- end of the Shemitah 7-year cycle on 13th Sept

- Feast of Trumpets on 13th/14th Sept 2015

- 70th JUBILEE year/40th since Christ begins on the Day of Atonement on 23rd Sept

* 40 symbolizes 'trial' or 'probation' ; 70 has a sacred meaning in the Bible that is made up of the factors of two perfect numbers, 7 (representing perfection) and 10 (representing completeness and God's law).
As such, it symbolizes perfect spiritual order carried out with all power. It can also represent a period of judgment.

- Feast of Tabernacles begins on 28th Sept







This post has been edited by 14-9-2015: Aug 7 2015, 07:06 AM

Astronomical Eclipse Data and Israel's Feasts

By Barry Setterfield

We are aware that the Lord said that the Sun, Moon and stars are to be for signs, and that leads on to the meaning of the names of the stars and the message that those names convey.



However, there is another manner in which the Sun and Moon may convey information. Consider Solar and Lunar eclipses. These come and go with clockwork regularity. Nevertheless, some strange coincidences may be noted. First, the occurrence of these astronomical events on the Feast Days or high Holy Days of Israel speak uniquely of God's fore-planning. That comment follows from the rarity of these events.

Something that is already rare astronomically is for 4 full Lunar eclipses to occur in succession. Usually, many partial eclipses occur between the times of total Lunar eclipses. For 4 totals to occur in a row is remarkable astronomically. However, even more remarkable is for such a tetrad of Lunar eclipses to occur on Jewish feast days.

This Lunar tetrad event coupled with Jewish feasts only occurs once in this present century, namely in 2014-2015. That will be discussed in a moment. The tetrad event only occurred once in the last century. Those occasions were in 1967 and 1968 when the 4 total Lunar eclipses occurred in succession on Passover April 24th 1967, and Tabernacles October 18th 1967; then Passover April 13th 1968, and Tabernacles October 6th 1968.

The point that is of interest in this connection is that the tetrad of Lunar eclipses in the 20th century surrounded the return of the Old City of Jerusalem to Jewish control on 7th June 1967, which itself was a fulfillment of prophecy (Psalm 102:12-22 and Luke 21:24-25, 32). There were no tetrads in the 1800's or the 1700's or the 1600's, though there were some related events in the 1500's which we will also come to in a moment.

Total Solar eclipses are similarly rare. It is even rarer for there to be two total Solar eclipses in one year. In 1967, there were two total Solar eclipses, namely on 9th May and 2nd November. When Solar events like this are linked with total Lunar eclipse tetrads, the chance of this happening is extremely low. Under these circumstances, it may be that the Lord is calling to our attention the significant event in His Program and for the nation of Israel which occurred that year.

In like fashion, it is of exceptional rarity for total Solar eclipses to occur every year or so. That has only occurred consistently in the 1500's. The occasions were January 3rd and December 24th 1535; December 13th 1536; April 28th 1538; April 18th 1539; April 7th 1540; August 11th, 1542. These Solar events were complimented by 4 total Lunar eclipses on 24th May and 17th November 1537, plus 12th March and 5th September 1541. What was happening during that period? That was the precise period in which the Wall was being built which currently surrounds Old Jerusalem. You can read about the significance of the building of Jerusalem's Wall and its possible link to the Messiah’s Return in this link:

http://www.setterfield.org/Jerusalem_Wall.html

This is done on the basis of Daniel 9 from which, to be brief, it can be stated that Messiah will appear 69 periods of 7 years of 360 days (or a total of 173,880 days) after the command to build the Wall of Jerusalem. For Messiah's first coming, that command was given in Nehemiah 2:1-8 and dated as the 1st Nisan 444 BC which was the 20th year of Artaxerxes. In our current calendar that date was 12th March that year. When 173,880 days are added to that date, you arrive at Sunday March 29th, 33 AD with Passover and full Moon (plus eclipse) on Friday April 3rd. Those dates correspond to Palm Sunday when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey as Messiah in fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9 with the Crucifixion later that week as foretold in Psalm 22:1, 16-18, Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9:26 etc.

The 7 year period of the re-building of the Wall of Jerusalem from 1535 to 1542 may have similar significance. The date of the command to build the wall was not recorded. However, the commands for the building of the fountains needed to refresh the workers and supply water for the building have been noted. They were all given before the command for the wall itself. Nevertheless, some of the Gates in the Wall have information about their construction available. Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent of the Ottoman Empire, who commanded that the work take place, did so as a result of a recurring dream featuring lions. The Lions Gate in the North-Eastern wall commemorates that event. It was through this gate that the Israelis gained access to the Old City to liberate it on June 7th 1967.

This is significant. In Daniel 9, the full period of 173,880 days is split into two segments, namely 156,240 days (62 periods of 7 years) and 17,640 days (7 periods of 7 years of 360 days). The Lions Gate was being built during 1539. If 156,240 days are added to that, we end up in 1967. Specifically, if the Lions Gate started construction on 20th August 1539, we end up with 7th June 1967. If we then add the remaining 17,640 days (or 7 periods of 7 years of 360 days) to the 7th June 1967, we end up on September 23rd 2015. This is the Jewish Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, when the High Priest would come out of the Holy of Holies and bless the believing congregation. It is at this point that the astronomical data become of some interest.

There is a tetrad of total Lunar eclipses starting Passover April 15th 2014, followed by Tabernacles October 8th 2014; then Passover April 4th 2015 with Tabernacles 28th September 2015. However, the total Solar eclipses also feed into this. The first total Solar eclipse being 1st Nisan March 20th 2015, and Rosh Hashana September 14th 2015. So there is a culmination of significant astronomical events in September 2015 with a total Solar eclipse for Rosh Hashana just a few days before the key day of Atonement September 23rd, and followed a few days after by a total Lunar eclipse for the Feast Of Tabernacles.

In other words, for a variety of reasons, we expect something of significance to happen around this time. The prophecy in Joel 2:31 comes to mind when he says “I will turn the sun into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes.” The ‘great and terrible day of the Lord’ is also referred to as “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7, Daniel 12:1), the “wrath of God,” or the “indignation of God” (Jeremiah 10:10), or the “day of the LORD’s fierce anger” (Zephaniah 2:2). So these events are a forewarning that the “great Tribulation” (Revelation 7:14) is shortly to occur. And the New Testament affirms that the Rapture, the catching away of the Christians to be with the Lord, will occur before the Tribulation. This is also hinted at in Zephaniah 2:1-3. So these astronomical events have the potential to herald a major upheaval which could be world-wide, but could also be focused on events in the Mid-East.


http://www.ldolphin.org/Setterfield_study.html

mumeichan prophetjul skydrake Piros TankerGadget Store

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Signs in the Stars?



By Lambert Dolphin, Malcolm Bowden, Barry Setterfield and Helen Fryman

During the design and construction of the universe God determined that clocks and calendars would be based on the motion of the moon, the earth, the planets and other objects in the heavens.

And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs ('oth, markers, indicators) and for seasons (moadhim, "solemn assembly") and for days and years, and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so. And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. (Genesis 1:14-19)

"Dynamical" time is to this day measured in terms of the rotational period of the earth on its axis, the month is basically a lunar cycle and the year an orbital period of the earth's motion around the sun. In Newtonian physics these clock rates depend on the mass of the objects involved, the gravitational constant, G, the size and separation distance of various bodies and any initial momentum imparted to them during creation week. Atomic time (the rate of radioactive decay processes, or the internal periods of motions within the nucleus), is the standard clock of modern science. Atomic time and dynamical time are probably not running in lock step, the proportionality constant being c, the velocity of light, which experimental data suggests is not a fixed constant as G is. God's clocks and calendars (as far as history is concerned) run on dynamical time not atomic time.

The sun (a type of Christ) rules the day on earth, and the moon (type of the church) rules the night (of Christ's visible absence from among us). Special stars (the Star of Bethlehem being one example), comets, meteors, super novas, eclipses, and the alignments of the planets may in some cases have been intended by our Creator to mark special seasons of history on our planet. The feasts of the Jewish lunar calendar year most certainly were intended to be teaching tools pointing to the redemptive history of Israel. (2)

Were the positions of the constellations and the alignments of the planets throughout the year intended by God to be teaching tools for His people? Is Babylonian (and the later Egyptian and then Greek) astrology a corruption of what was once a pure proto-Hebrew star-chart system intended for spiritual enlightenment? Astronomer Danny Faulkner thinks not. (1) Writing for an Australian creation journal, Faulkner argues that modern gospel-in-the-stars arguments originate from only two principal sources Joseph Seiss and E. W. Bullinger (3, 4) who both seem to have been influenced by Frances Rolleston (5) who wrote on this topic in 1862. Faulkner suggests we abandon what he feels is a lot of extra-biblical baggage concerning the stars and constellations.



British creation writer Malcolm Bowden is one of a number of reputable scholars who assert that claims of "no message in the stars" can not be so easily dismissed. There are a great many references of astronomical significance scattered through the Bible. Paul argues in Romans 10:18 that all men have clear evidence of God from creation itself: "But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for 'Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.'" Bowden comments, "In this passage we see the glory of God set forth for all to see. Now this may be in the awesomeness of space and of the uncountable numbers of stars. These are there for all to see and wonder. But it is also possible that it was in the names of the constellations and stars that the real message lay that Paul could have been referring to. Indeed, this is far more likely when we are told that it was God himself who named the stars in Psalm 147:4: "He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by their names." if God gave them their names, surely this is added evidence that they were named not just for identification but so that He may set out His plan of salvation for fallen mankind." (6)

From Daniel it is clear that magic arts, divination and astrology were indeed an important part of the religion and culture of Babylon. Earlier, Moses presented a clear warning to Israel, "beware lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and worship them and serve them, things which the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven." (Deuteronomy 4:19) That divination, astrology and channeling pose grave, occultic dangers to God's people is clear:

"When you come into the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD; and because of these abominable practices the LORD your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you so to do. (Deuteronomy 18:9-14)

Idolatry consists in revering the created thing rather than the creator. Behind the worship of sun, moon and stars are the demonic powers of the heavenly realm (1Cor. 10:20). Angels, fallen and unfallen, are God's instruments in the government of the physical world and nature (Hebrews 2:5). Seeking answers about the future in the stars-then or now-brings us under the control of demonic agencies-to our own harm and destruction.



But the existence of powerful counterfeits in the world strongly suggests that there exists a real body of truth that was lost, or corrupted by the god of this world. All ancient civilizations for some reason have ended up with twelve only constellations (signs) of the Zodiac, and many legends connected with these signs contain similar themes and stories. In studying such matters science can not be the final arbitrator, for much truth about man and his history is passed down through the stories, traditions, through the art, music, poetry, and literature of earlier civilizations. Our generation lives under an illusion that we know more and are more advanced than were the men of old. The reverse is true. Mankind has been moving inexorably downhill all the way-especially in the matter of quality of life, richness of culture and social life. We live near the end of history, far removed from the profound realities men knew before the Flood.

The case for the Gospel in the Stars can not be settled definitively with the present evidence. I agree with Malcolm Bowden in preferring not to dismiss myths, legends, and even folk-tales as part of a genuine legacy of truth concerning actual, historical realities transmitted by tradition and literature-to be studied with discernment yet with respect. If I discard Bullinger and Seiss from my library (because these authors did not write inspired books that are recognized in the Biblical canon), I may as well throw out my sermon collections, favorite hymns, my C.S. Lewis collection, J.R.R Tolkien, and George MacDonald. Into the trash would go "The Legends of the Jews," my copy of Josephus, and my William Corliss collection on the anomalies of science. After such a purge, my library would be a tidy place indeed--reduced to a few books on modern science (needed for my work), a Bible or two, and a half-dozen lexicons and dictionaries. I love my books, without them my spiritual and emotional life would be sterile indeed. The full truth about God and the mysteries of the universe we live in is not that easily reduced as Faulkner would have us believe. God questioned wise old Job in his mature years and found him quite ignorant of many things,

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements --surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy. Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place, that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? Declare, if you know all this. Where is the way to the dwelling of light, and where is the place of darkness, that you may take it to its territory and that you may discern the paths to its home. Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose the cords of Orion? Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children? Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you establish their rule on the earth. (Job 38)




The Bible indicates that God not only named the stars Himself, but that He established them for signs as well as seasons. The ancients must have known this, or the magi would never have recognized the sign in the stars indicating the birth of Christ. It is just as easy for us to fall into the error denying God's uses of the stars on the basis of currently known science as it is to swing the other direction and become involved in the errors of astrology and fortune-telling. As God reminded Job, there is much we do not know and cannot explain. Let us keep an open mind and constantly evaluate information from other sources alongside the solid, unchanging truth of Scripture.

http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html

What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' - Mark 13:37





This post has been edited by 14-9-2015: Aug 7 2015, 07:39 AM

Anybody wanna help ?

please do not take up space as you like, let it go naturally as once the page full next page will be opened and your posts just vanished in the thin air

Well to avoid getting blurry eyes, Then Lets keep this simple shall we? If you want to write long rebuttals, I will only reply in kind. Just know that this is my God and my Faith, you think I will give up? Maybe you can say I'm a little bit more passionate than most Christians and perhaps a little more zeal. . How can I turn my back on God after all He has done for me, my life and my family. I was almost dead if not because of my God. I am indebted but can never repay no matter what. So with that being said, you think for one moment I will allow you to malign God's word and Put Him on the same level as all other religion?

Go Figure, I won't let this go.

Let's break down to few points which is repetitive.

1. It's pointless for you to talk about practical message, you cannot apply this to yourself and think by doing the practicality of the principals in there you qualify. The core qualification of God's salvation still comes from God giving it to you out of his Grace (meaning you don't qualify it by your performance). You cannot wrestle it out of God or to think that God will be indebted to give it to you just because you walk in love and all that nonsensical self effort doctrine.

There is only 1 condition, which is to believe that He sent Jesus to die on the cross for your sins, that only He alone Saves you because you cannot save yourself no matter what and that Jesus is the Son of God and is God himself, agree that Sin is wrong and that you repent in your mind towards God. (repent towards God means - that you acknowledge He is a Good God and He will help you out of weaknesses that you have and all the problems in your life. )


2. Jesus is already there at the beginning with the Father, in fact He is outside of time. Don't think that Jesus only started to exist in the New Testament. All the Patriarch, Abraham, Moses were all saved by their Faith in God. Read Hebrews 11, it is explained there.

3. Yes, we do good works because we are created in Christ for Good works. Before that, as sinners, our natural tendency is towards destructive behaviour, jealousy, rage and all that but now in Christ as born again believer we are commission to good works because we are given new embedded nature, a new DNA behaviour. We don't do it to qualify for Heaven. We do it because that is how God created us, in the born again experience in Christ. You understand?

4. 1 Corinthians 13:4 explains the characteristic of Love. Why Love is important. In fact the whole 1 Corinthians 13 explains Love because in 1 Corinthians 12, it talks about the Gift of the Spirit. Any Gift of the spirit which is not acted in Love becomes non effective. Gift of spirit means Gifts given to every believer to operate for the benefit of God's Kingdom. That is the context.

5. The Law was not given to you to Fight against Sin or to do deal with Sin more efficiently. It is given to expose your sin more clearly. Meaning the more you try to do it, the more Sin will be manifested. It is very plain in these verses, read it again slowly

Romans 7:9 (NIV) - Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
1 Corinthians 15:56 (NIV) - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

This is the result when you put yourself under the Law.

Romans 7:18-20 (NIV) - 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

6. The ministry of death is referring to point no. 5

7. No, I did not create it up, it was demonstrated in the story of the Rich Young Ruler in Matthew 19. When Jesus gave him the Law, it brought him to the end of himself. The Law was design for that. And This is not the detachment doctrine as in Buddhism because in Buddhism you do this for to avoid desires and wants so that there is no suffering. In Christianity this is given to show that you cannot. Yes Matthew 5 hits the point perfectly you know why? Jesus elevated the Law to higher position. Yes it is a pre-condition to qualify for Heaven and this is pitted against every sinner and in the Book of James God's standard of qualifying his Salvation is that if you break any 1 point of the Law, you break all of them. So the lingering question towards the people of that day is also pose to you today; Can you keep the Law perfectly without failing?

8. Culminating love? Anyone can say that, if you don't put it in action, it's just "cakap kosong". And the dying thief is the evidence that God's Salvation is by God's grace and not your effort or works. This is consistent throughout the Bible. Even if we go by your erroneous understanding this still proves that Salvation is easy compare to other religion. Did he do long hours rigorous mental meditation? The answer is No. Does God treat people differently when it comes to the matter of righteousness and Salvation? The Answer is No.

9. Yes as what I've explained in point No. 4

10. Read the Whole Passage carefully in Romans 10 then you will understand Romans 11, don't cherry pick.

Romans 11:6-7 (NIV) - …6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

What is it talking about? It's talking about God granting Salvation and how is it obtained?..... by Work or Grace? God says it's by grace and this has been establish in many verse in the Bible. The Elite here is referring to the Patriarchs like Abraham and Moses and as I have explained in point No.2 They got it by Faith.

11. Yes, Faith comes by hearing more of Jesus. It does not come by your act of trying to fulfill the Law. In fact the more you try hear the Law or depend on the Law in this context the more your Faith will diminish (Romans 4:14) That was my point.

12. No it's not a metaphor. Yes Sin enter and was exhibited the moment Adam fall but the Law of God is like a towering dead end to tell Man that He cannot overcome it. This is meaning in context.

13. No. Jesus did not come to preach love and improve the Law. He came to die in our place as substitute for our sins. He was punished for our sins. He came to fulfill God's will. He came to save us and be our Saviour. People of this world complain that why isn't God doing anything, the world is getting evil. This is the testimony of the work of God that stands in the testimony of time.

John 1:29 (NIV) - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16 (NIV) - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 6:40 (NIV) - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 10:10 (NIV) - The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

You can only have life through Jesus Christ. The power to reign over sin comes through Him by the power of his Spirit and the power of his Grace.

14. You cannot have both Grace and Works (Effort) otherwise Grace is contradicted. (Romans 11:6)

15. It's not convincing to you because you don't trust God to save, you rather trust yourself.

16. I cannot enlightened you by arguments. It doesn't work that way in God's kingdom. It only comes revelation given by God's spirit. As I told you before. The Bible are not dead letters. You cannot read it just like that and try to understand it with your human carnal nature. Unless you have God's spirit in you, the word of God will be offensive against you in everyway.
That is why, what you explain all above is really a waste on your part.

My message is to enforce what 14-9-2015 posted, and using the momentum he created to enrich our christian walk.

However all knows that devil try to create dissension / resentment among us.... well, i believe GOD's always in control.

Here is John Hagee, one of my favorite preachers. I don't think he is labelled prosperity gospel preachers, but for sure he is israel oriented. Guaranteed israel oriented

Wah I salute that you took the time ot explain this. Also helpful against extreme fundamentalism also.

Bible Devotions with UW

Is God an assuring God or a God who discourage?



I see many things happening that seem to indicate this are the last days. The evil things. The evil of Man's heart. Time is pressing in a way.
And in conjunction with this. I can see the works of the devil trying very hard to put the Law back into the Gospel. This time through unbelievers. I mean we have it through Christians in the past and even now but if this time it comes through an unbeliever, I know the Devil is very desperate. Stay with me and I will tell you the reason why I bring this up.

See, the reason why Jesus came is to save us. We all know that. Yes we all know scripture that He is the messiah, He is the one who became our substitute for our sins. We as christians....we know all that accompanying reasons by scripture. This is a given, there is no need argue on this.

But the real question is still Why?

If you look at Ephesians 2:8 (Look at the other translations as well.)

New International Version
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

New Living Translation
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

King James Bible
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is the hallmark verse that firmly establish God's Salvation. And we have people back then thousands of years ago and even now trying with their human wisdom to pervert this truth.
From here if you study back and branch out, Back to the Old Testament and Forward in the New Testament, You will realize, we got our Salvation because God is really graceful. What did the Israelites do? All they do is break God's commandment by worshipping idols and yet God still says a remnant of them 144 thousand will be saved. What did they do to qualify themselves? What did the gentiles do to qualify? What did we do? Answer is Nothing. We did nothing to qualify it.


You will also realize that if we go by the Law there will be uncertainty. Why? Because none of us are perfect. I mean I would be uncertain I if I go by Law because my standing with God depends on my performance. And I know there will come a time, I will get angry, I may say careless words, I may lust, I may do something wrong, I may this or that, whatever. The Law does not give us assurance but the opposite.

When Jesus came, I notice a pattern. He always says "Do not worry...Do not fear" every time someone in the vicinity be it his disciple or someone else was in doubt and fearful. Why is that? And as I study his life and message, I notice Jesus is always reassuring his people. Not one time, NEVER EVEN ONCE, Jesus cause anyone to doubt. When the Sick came to Him, they were ALL HEALED.

Wherever Jesus goes, It was always consistently successful whatever He does. ALL Demon possessed are cast out. Those who hungry were fed to the FULL even have more than enough left overs. Even the dead rose up! And Jesus is GOD! Think about that. Father God says, all that has happened in the past, JESUS is the last the omega representation of who God is. We all know God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

When I read this verse, it hits so hard, there's a Bingo Light!

John 10:28 (NIV) - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

And this is the reassuring word that trade marks who Jesus is. A Reassuring God! Do you see the word THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH? The word never perish in the Greek is Ou mē which is Iron Double Clad guarantee NEVER EVER! Jesus says NO ONE can snatch you out his hands! Hallelujah. How reassuring is that? VERY! VERY!If that doesn't lift your Faith I don't know what else will.

In concluding, Jesus wants you to be assured of his Salvation. He has said it in John 10:28. It's a full stop. If Jesus would give you the Law to pit against your performance, he would have said it and it will contradict everything that was spoken. If Jesus came to give the Law, there is really no reason for him to come because the Law was already given during the time of Moses. There is absolutely no reason for Him to come, not one.

Now understand that, all that I have said above is only for the believers of Christ in context. The Law still stands against Sinner in this world. It is needed for Sinners to understand why they cannot come to God through it. The Law is a towering dead end for them. See, God is so good and a gentleman, He will not enforce salvation to anyone who isn't willing. And Yet He gave the law because in his heart, He truly Love us that he want us to realize we need to be saved. It is the duty and responsibility of the Law to drive them to Jesus Christ the Messiah, The son of the Living God!

God Bless people.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 6 2015, 10:20 AM

Sorry abit late,
when you nailed me to the cross you forgot to nail at the heart, today the devil came back to haunt you.



Great spirit you have. Anyway, whatever this debate turns out to be, let us at least be truthful to ourselves.




Not exactly.
I had explained that apart from grace, love is the key and the fulfillment to Christian salvation.
Nothing to do with indebt, it is about fulfilling the new covenant.


Lol, said easy salvation and 1 condition but suddenly so many things.
Do you know for a typical man to agree sin is wrong is not as simple as you think?
One needs to distinguish between sin vs righteousness before one can even realize one needs to repent. And there are so many kinds of sinful activities that one may fail to recognize some.
Hebrews 10:26-28 also say believers can fall back if the right condition is not met.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Hebrews 6 shows that Christian salvation can be harder than other religion because God becomes unforgiving when a person fall back after receiving grace.
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

And if you want to rebut me with your old argument “HS is not in them but only on them”, let me remind you i’ve yet to find any verse that can support your claim in a non-ambiguous manner. Anyway, please do elaborate...along with Cain and the rich man.




Ok.



Mind explaining why it is not embeded in Cain and the rich man.


mean gift exclusive to believer?
If that is the case, explain why almost all the fruits of the spirit(Galatians 5:22) seems universal.
Did God mistakenly credited righteousness or HS into non-believers too?



The underlined part i agree. The rest is out of context interpretation. Read verse 21 to 25
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

It is merely illustrating that sinful tendency is overpowering, thus more mindfulness is needed. See below.


I think you miscomprehended your source…
Look what it says in the end;
Romans 7: 25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

It basically ask one to be mindful. Conscious effort vs sinful tendency.

Furthermore, James 4:17 says "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them".
If go by your premise, then do tak kena, don’t do also tak kena, how much more confusing can you get than this?





Hard but not impossible. Like you said, it is a journey of progress. Don’t tell me you can’t testify ever meeting such a good person? Rare of course but not extinct.

Actions was driven by the mind, if one can be constantly conscious enough to notice any sinful mental thought/activities before it transgress into physical actions or speech, then self-control becomes easy. Whether the journey is easy or hard, read answer on no 8.

Back to topic, the thing that is standing between the rich man and Jesus is clearly the former’s greed and attachment. No good reason to say he has no faith otherwise he would not have made any attempt to keep the commandments. Hence, you need elaborate more on no.3.



Repeating myself, when love is culminated, self-restrain/self-control is also culminated…as shown in many verses.
Most of the bad things that happens in this world is not because people fail to do something but because people fail to stop doing it(corruption).


It depends on how you live, your upbringing, also your physiological condition. If a person's life is already fill with wholesome habits then it will be pretty easy to love but we know most are not.
Just because a few genius student are able to scored high without studying hard does not mean we shall encourage the general population not to study hard.
Same can be applied to other religion, since you say you are former Buddhist, do you know some of Buddha’s disciples became enlightened after listening to just a few sermon without rigorous meditation? But is it appropriate to dismiss hard work based on rare cases like this?







The context here is talking about the works of non-believers, it is not really against believer’s work.
The same thing happens to the pagans in OT…
Isaiah 57:12-13
I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you.
When you cry out for help, let your collection of idols save you!

This is what happened when you have a Jealous God.

Plus, Romans 11:6 is probably speaking from the givers angle.

And in a logical sense, work does not cancel grace because free gift can always be added more than one’s work deserves.
Read the parable of the vineyard worker and imagine a slightly different version;
All the workers went to work and finished work at the same time, but out of grace the land owner paid bonus wages to one worker while the rest receive just as promised.



Your point is logically flawed.
Let’s analyzed it with verse 15
14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
First, the law here refers to work of non-believers. It does not say Christian shall not try to fulfill the law.
Secondly, the law brings wrath because of the harsh punishment(Leviticus 20), and finally Galatians 5:23 explained what is mean by no law.
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Whether to build faith or to be in tune with the spirit, mental work is needed. It says self-control not God-control embeded DNA.



Refer above.



Yes he did. Love is the key and the fulfillment of the new covenant.
1 John 4
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
....

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.


Faith, like everything else has depth to it, thus needs effort to build/strengthen. You wanna hahaha at me again, not this time;
Romans 14
1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters…
…19 So then, let us aim for harmony in the church and try to build each other up.




If God wants people to trust him, He shall convince people first not the other way around.
Actually, the bible did acknowledge this in John verse 4:48 but in reality it fails to deliver most of its claim.


The God spirit you talking about is an imaginary spirit.
In a practical sense, to know what spirit the bible is talking about we just need to analyze its fruits;
Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.



Just for noting, i think most of the argument revolves around argument no.1, no.3 and no.4.

This post has been edited by loud: Aug 6 2015, 12:15 PM

No I didn't forget, that part belongs to my God as always. I'm just his delivery boy to deliver you his message.

Doesn't matter to me whether you're late or not. Like I said, this is my Faith, I would know if you are wrong and be able to tell you the difference, not the other way round. Let's get that first established. To think that you can come here tell us as the opposite role is laughable because it's something liken to an average joe on the street who read dummies for engineering trying to teach an experience engineer on engineering.

So you admit you are the devil eh? Then all the more reason for all of us in here to reject your interpretation isn't it?

You should ask that on yourself, what's the reason of you coming in here discrediting our Faith? Let's be truthful about that first.

The longer we go, the more I realize you're trying to enforce some form of Universal Zen Buddhism into Christianity. Anyway The truth of our scripture have stood the test of time regardless of your debate or your intention. Listen kid, There is always RWI for your need to argue, in case you're totally blind or oblivious this is Christian Fellowship thread. Do you even understand the purpose of this thread? It's not the place for you to to pick fight or to argue with us. It's for us Christians to fellowship.

It's obvious something is probably eating inside of you that caused you to come in here. I mean no one force you to come and start to argue all this. If you need Jesus, can always pray for you. You want to find somebody to argue with, go to RWI.


You must learn to exegesis the Bible accurately down to the root. Salvation in Christianity is the work of Jesus Christ. This is an established fact in our doctrine. Only He alone could fulfill God's law because only He alone is born without Sin. The rest of humanity are all tainted with Sin.

The fact is, his work for Salvation is already a done deal. All we have to do is step into it. There is nothing for us to do, to qualify. because None of us could fulfilled the Law. If anyone could, Christ did not need to come. But the fact that Jesus did come means nobody did. And If we still need to qualify, the 10 commandment is more than comprehensive enough. So there is nothing for us to fulfil against whatever Law there is in the New Covenant but to believe. That is the New Covenant, the covenant of God's Grace.

If the Bible never says Love as the condition for Salvation then it is not. The moment you add in something that the Bible does not say, it becomes wrong teaching and can stumble other people. This is not a plaything.Do learn to respect that at least. Don't say something you have not lived and neither experience nor understand of the Christian doctrine pertaining to the Life of God's Kingdom.

And I believe I've already explained this to you, we love because that is who God made us to be as Christian. It is not the condition to gain Salvation, it is a testimony of who we are in Christ.

However, This is in the Bible and is consistent in the word. God even say "The righteous shall live by Faith" meaning the righteousness of Faith.

John 3:16 (NIV) - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 (NIV) - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.
John 6:40 (NIV) - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The dying thief is a very good example and it proves this doctrine, the family whom Paul preached proves that. Zacchaeus the tax collector also proves that, (Jesus just gave him grace, no laws) and all of them was saved on the basis of God's grace. Those people are the evidence. God put it in there for us to know.

Then why was the young rich ruler given the Law by Christ? The answer is simple. Anyone who comes before God under the Law, God will give you the Law. But if you come under Grace, He will deal with you base on Grace. It is very consistent throughout the Bible, just take a notice whenever anyone comes to Jesus under the Law, see his responses. The people who come under Grace, see his responses. Study this with an open heart, God may grant you Salvation yet.

Here is the scripture words to back that up.

Romans 6:14 (NIV) - For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Galatians 3:25 (NIV) - Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. (Guardian here refers to the Law)

What these 2 verse means is that, we are put under the covenant of God's Grace. No longer means No longer and Not under means not under.


If you say that Sin is dependant and realized by man's contemplation then it will be terribly flawed because one man's definition will be different from other. Ever heard the word, one man's mead is another man's poison? The Bible would be a better consistent gauge because it is the word of God. The highest form there is and undiscriminating, what is wrong, it is wrong by the Bible standard.

With regards to Hebrews 10:26-28, I've already explained it in one of my devotion, it is not what as what you say above. It has to do with Apostasy.

God's Salvation in Christianity is Easy because it is God who justify and He is the one who saves us, not us. The moment you put your Faith or believe that Jesus is the Son of God and He is your Savior, God credits that as Righteousness to you and grants you Salvation.

Yes I agree that it's a mouthful but they are all related. The primary condition is still Faith. That is the starting point. But to just have Faith does not make sense, so the question is, Faith in what? For what? Those are the parts that I painstakingly explain. What is the whole point of accepting Him in the first place? It's because when one understand that we all have sin in our life and there's nothing we can do to remove it, then we need to look for divine savior. This is one of the reason why Christ came. And for people who reject Christ purposefully, there is no other way to reach God, they stand in judgement with the Devil.

Anyway...Back to this, It is an obvious that of course we also need to also agree that Sin is wrong, By right I don't have to tell that but for you, I had to explain more in detail because of the way you understand (seems a lot like typical Atheist Buddhist interpretation rather than a Christian one).


What Old Argument HS is not in them but only on them? Why the double "in them"? Don't understand your point one bit.

Cain and the Rich man parable? The Rich Man Parable, you can find it in one my devotion, it's in the very devotion which you first came in.

As for Cain's revelation here it is:

Understand it, in the Light of the New Testament.

1 John 3:12 (KJV) - Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Cain murdered because He was angry that God showed Favour to his brother instead of him. And what was this over? The answer are the offerings to God. The Approach to come to God. 1 John 3:12 mentioned that Cain's work was evil. But wait a minute, what was the work that was evil?

Cain brought produce of the land while Abel brought Animal Sacrifices. Why did God show favor to Abel instead of Cain? because Animal Sacrifice points to shedding of Blood. The Bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of Sin. This remind of Jesus Christ.

This also symbolizes

1. Abel Symbolizes people coming to God via the blood of Christ.
2. Cain symbolizes people coming to God via self effort.

It has to do with Grace vs Works.

Because back in the OT, the people had to go by their own performance (own strength) and it's pitted against God's Law, ie the 10 commandments.


Well first of all, you need to understand what is what.

Gifts of the Spirit are spiritual gifts given to Believers for the edification of the Church like Tongues, Healing, etc. Fruits of the Spirit means the result of the power of God's Spirit which is all that love, joy and peace in the believers life. That is why I said, it doesn't come by will power or Man's effort. Try and digest the word, Fruits of the Spirit. Fruit is not something you produce. It comes from God.

Righteousness is not credited because one perform the gift of the spirit. It come via Faith, the Righteousness of Faith. (Romans 1:17)

Don't really understand your question. But If I guess right of what you wanted to say, the Bible never says all those attributes are exclusive to Christians. What is exclusive to Christians is that it doesn't come by our own effort. This is something that comes when we rest in God. Something we as believer have in privilege, as oppose to your side that you need to exert your own mind matter and all that self effort.

Here is the exact context of why the Law was given.

Galatians 3:19

New International Version
Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

New Living Translation
Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.

English Standard Version
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

New American Standard Bible
Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

King James Bible
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

It was designed to last until the coming of Christ. Then those who are in Christ, Grace takes over, no more of the Law. So if you say it is needed to fight sin, this verse proves otherwise. For us believers, there is nothing to fight by self effort because Christ has taken care of all our sins. Our new Fight has to do with Faith.

Galatians 3:11 (NIV) - Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."



Nothing to do with mindfulness or whatever that is. Please get that sort of answer out of the Christian equation. The answer is right there anyway.
Read carefully, Nothing there that says to deal it with your mind power or mind over matter (Whatever your mindfulness is). Read it carefully. Here are 5 translation

Romans 7:25

New International Version
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

New Living Translation
Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

English Standard Version
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

New American Standard Bible
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

King James Bible
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The New Living Translation would answer you best. See all the bold part and Read Romans 7:24, the prior verse before that.

In Romans 7:24 it says there:

Romans 7:24 (NIV) What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

Noticed that is is a "who" not a "what - your methodology, your mind, etc" that will rescue him? And the Solution to this is found in Romans 8:1 The "who" is our Lord Jesus Christ.

About the part of Do also kena and don't do also kena, that is exactly what it means. You want to do Good but unable to. You want to refrain from evil but end up doing it. That is the design of the Law.

Like I said the law is a towering dead end to bring you to the end of yourself. (exactly as how you lamented ) So that hopefully, you realize that you cannot and need a Saviour. This has stood the test of time. You can even test this on yourself. Have you been able to consistently live a righteous life? I don't think so. You might do your best but you still fall one way or another.

Well depends...if good according to Man's standard of what is good then it will be ambiguous because different people have different standards. And that IMO is downplaying God's standard of Righteousness. Anyway, I would say, There is no such person in this world because there is no one is who perfect. Everyone is a sinner.

You forgot that it is keeping every single law without breaking them not even once and the ones mentioned in Matthew 5 and to top it off (glad that you picked this record) Jesus told the Young Rich Ruler to give up every cent that was the commandment. The rich young ruler after all did ask, what must I do to have eternal life and Jesus gave that as the Law. And let say If I turn the table over to you, can you give up all the money that you have?

Different people have different weaknesses but the Laws of God catches them all the same, just in different areas. No amount of your mental effort will help you when it God himself who judges you by his standard.




On your own strength, it is not consistent. It only goes as long as you remember to do it and that with human Effort and the interest to do it. As I've told you human beings are flawed in many way.
The verse doesn't support such notion. The life of a believer in God's kingdom does not work on the basis of self effort.


Well by your logic then it's very obvious the very reason why he's a thief in the first place basically throws out all that you've argued about Love as the fulfillment in his salvation. I'm sure it would have been tough for him.
As such I submit to you the thief got his Salvation out of God's Grace. Something He didn't earn.

(Guess you're will be doing a U-turn on this)



Read Carefully. It's referring to Israel. They are God's chosen people so your argument is moot.

Sigh. For the millionth time, Work means it is given indebted to you, because you earn it. Grace means it's given to you unearned. Learn to understand and differentiate the two.
Or you can pick up a dictionary and study the meaning if you don't believe me.

No, The Parable of the workers in the vineyard refers exactly to God's Grace and magnifies Romans 11:6.

Read the Parable carefully. Read verse 15 & 16

15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Some people think they are entitle to the right to have more because they earned it. But God would not have it that way. It is upon his grace that he gives and he is very generous about it. Because God knew some people will inevitable think they have because they qualify.

The keyword is in verse 16, the last will be first, and the first will be last. This phrase was mentioned in 1 chapter earlier, Matthew 19 at the very last bottom and that portion of Matthew 19 talks about Salvation. The Rich Young Ruler thinks He qualify because He fulfilled Salvation with his Law Keeping (the more the merrier), He did say ALL THESE I HAVE KEPT. and Yet in the Parable of the worker in the vineyard, God gave to others who may have not done much.

Now this is a parable, This has nothing to do with work per say but Salvation.


First refer to the above for the moot point and then refer below for some better understanding.

Let's do better than that, Let's read the entire context:

Romans 4:13-16 (NIV)

13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Verse 13 already discredit that the promise of God via the Law but reinforced that it is by Faith and Grace (Verse 16)

And Galatians 5, Look at the word, Fruit of the spirit, Notice 'OF the SPIRIT" Fruits means Result of the Spirit not Effort of Man. The word Spirit here in the Greek is pneuma, referring to the Holy Spirit.

Sorry but your point is flawed at the beginning.


You refer my above also.

The New Covenant is already a done deal fulfilled by Christ, our part is step into it by Faith.

And Look at the very first definition, it helps you to understand Who is the one has done it.

God define Love as this: Not that we love God but He Love us. And because He loves us, He send his son for us, so that we get connected back to God. The focus is on God being the one who has fulfilled this and He is the one who does the Loving. From there it explains because because we are ALREADY saved by God and that we know God loves us, (being given the grace) we also ought to love one another. Bingo! Didn't I say this earlier? It is not the condition to gain Salvation, it is a testimony of who we are in Christ. And look at the passages in there again,This testify it.

Understand the meaning. Because the very essence of God is Love and If we are saved, it also means that His Spirit is in our life. Because his spirit is in our life, the nature of Love is in us. (New DNA). It would be contradictory to Hate others as Christians because the nature of God is never like that. So If anyone He is Saved and that He love God and yet hates his brother is a liar. That is what it means. A Liar, meaning you were never a Christian in the first place. Either because you didn't understand what it means to accept Christ or you never really believe or know God. A Wannabe Christian but without God involved....like you maybe? ( I mean your self centred doctrine apart from God)

This is proven in this verse:

1 John 4:7-8 (NIV) - 7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love

So how can you say one does not need God? Eh?

Another Problem is, you don't know what is the New Covenant. You fling that word very loosely with irrelevant examples.

In Verse 1, it talks about those who are strong in Faith not to scorn those who are weak in Faith. Then it goes on to explain; whatever we do, don't stumble the weaker Faith brother. Whatever we do be it eating, drinking whatever acts, make sure it's for the edification of the entire Church so Live in harmony and build one another up, meaning, don't allow our actions to stumble the weaker brother's Faith. Read verse 13.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

And how does one, make every effort to build one another up? Romans 14:20-21 explain it quite clearly which is to refrain from doing any act that may stumble the weaker brother.

. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

All these are referring to the lifestyle of the believer with greater Faith.

I believe Your context is more towards having Faith in God in a greater measure. That comes via hearing the word of God as I've explained in point 11.

These are separate matter.






And He did. Jesus Christ happened. He performed all those miracles. Don't think it fail. The Signs and wonders happened during Jesus time, it's still happening today and quite frequently in the Church and in our meets, evangelistic, Healing, etc.


No, He is the 3rd part of the Triune God, the Holy Spirit. Very much recorded in the Bible. I mean if you prefer to just cherry pick the Bible, what is the point then for you to argue with me the first place? Don't you think you're doing something stupid and baseless?

Well this is Christianity in case you're delusional. God is the core essence, cannot be remove. Sorry.

Up to you. If you want to discuss just point 1, 3 & 4, then discuss just point 1, 3 and 4. If you think by doing long rebuttal, I'm the one who will give up, think again.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 7 2015, 11:25 AM

Christ and negative thinking

One of the forumer here (not really "here" but few versions back) try to convinced me that CHRIST is a negative GOD because he suffers to us and bear pain of this world.

Here joel osteen said in minutes 15:00 (and few minutes later) about why we should not keep that thought it our mind. it's belittle us.




This post has been edited by de1929: Aug 7 2015, 08:42 AM

why did u post this here? what are u trying to prove? do u think we r not clear enuf on whr u stand? why r u so stubborn?

i started listening frm the 10:00 min mark, right up til the end & felt sick in the pits of my stomach after listening to this. it grieved my spirit.

this is so far off the mark, if u can even call it a proper sermon.

Joel Osteen is a fantastic motivational speaker. i'll gif em tat.

keeps harping on overcoming the flesh by depending on our own strength. talks a lot about human feelings. talks about human potential.

teaches a lot of positive self-talk. repetitive theme about reaching the fullness of your destiny in this life.

he quotes scripture whenever its convenient for him. cracks jokes at the right times too.

touches very little on scripture. no elaboration whatsoever. hardly ever talks about Jesus. telling lots of grandmother stories about successful ppl.

feeding the spirit person, not the flesh through self-discipline! no mention about depending on Christ. what is this??!!

Kept saying, "can God trust us? can God trust us?", shouldn't it be the other way around instead? We put our trust in God??!!

"We shouldn't put a 'question mark', where God put a 'period'." Another repetitive statement throughout this video.

this fella is very, very slick!

this is NOT my brand of Christianity. Don't make a mockery of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. u are going in a very dangerous direction de1929.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears." - 2 Timothy 4:3

He is like u said , a good motivation speaker, but i myself dont really heed the words he say , i do believe , every Christian have his own/her own way of persuing God. Thats why i always remember , like when you read the Bible, make sure to read it with a positive mindset or to "be a sponge and absorb" lol.

PS : When r we gonna have a Lowyat's christian fellowship outing ?

Because of positive thinking, (aka love) CHRIST decide to sacrifice on the cross.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



This post has been edited by de1929: Aug 7 2015, 11:07 AM

you wanna be the organizer?

Guys, chill.

Joel Osteen preaching may not appeal to some of us but it may appeal to others who have totally lost hope in Life and perhaps angry at God for various reasons.

It's a matter of play with words. What to some is positive mind may mean Faith to others.

Joel knows his audience well where in America, Atheism, LBGT is are binding people from coming to God. Some people are so offended by God, the mere mention of the word God, provokes them and would shun away from Christians.

I believe his ministry are geared for that group, to bring them back. That is why his messages are more intuned for that.


Those who need deeper spiritual insight, just look elsewhere. Go for John Piper or MacArthur or whoever's sermon appeal to your spiritual need.

Don't let this upset you. Common guys.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 7 2015, 03:41 PM

Please pray for me, been coughing badly for past few days hoping to recover soon.

my mom legs is not really that good the joints are not like it used to be, doctor advised to take supplements and give rub meds as well as pain killer

For me, it's a passion understanding God's word.


Bro, just curious, u supporting your mom alone or you have other brothers helping out?