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LYN Christian Fellowship V10 (Group)

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de1929	Aug 2 2015, 05:46 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #561
Regular Senior Member 1,920 posts Joined: Jan 2009	QUOTE(pehkay @ Aug 2 2015, 07:32 AM) You do realize that it is one of those KJV versus all other translations website. The quickest response is here: http://www.gotquestions.org/missing-verses.html Most older ones have the verses but have footnotes telling us whether it is present in other manuscript etc. etc. I personally like those versions than NIV. But that is just my IMO. Contrary to what some in the KJV-only camp would have you believe, the NIV translators are not trying to lead you into the lake of fire by deceiving you with false translations. Many of the so-called "missing verses" are referenced in the side-column of your NIV Bible. The only reason they were left out is that the translators of the NIV honestly believed that the evidence was overwhelmingly against those verses being part of the original writing. (I don't have time to get into the long version of textual criticism ) but at least believe me that divine revelation revealed in the text (even though there is 5%-7% variants) is 100% intact. Just please don't ever try to use this thing as a Christ versus text/context/His Word excuse .... it will be a joke later Cheers! P.S. (Don't get me started on some of the wrong translations introduced by KJV which perpetuate some existing wrong doctrines today) Thanks a lot !... i limit this discussion only for missing verses, not to broaden it with Christ vs text/context/His Word excuse. In regard to side-column things, i just realized it's there for NIV paper bible. But my NIV in android / ipad don't have hahaha... i don't want to discourage NIV users, i just simply express i just realized. That's all This post has been edited by de1929: Aug 2 2015, 05:47 PM
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loud	Aug 2 2015, 09:42 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #562
Casual Junior Member 373 posts Joined: Oct 2013	QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 2 2015, 04:13 PM) Shifting the goal post so fast? Earlier you mentioned how hard is it for the thief (indicating that it's not that hard) to introduce new mental habits and would Jesus accepts his plea if it was from selfish ambition. Now you say it's hard. That is not what i meant, sorry for the bad phrasing... i must have mistaken what you mean by "How difficult was it for Him to attain Salvation?" and reply with the same tune... QUOTE So how much time did the dying thief devote himself strenuously to contemplate or meditate that impressed Jesus so much, He gave him freely the gift of Salvation? Because right now you're giving the picture, devotees of other religion spends a lot of time meditating and all that. Remember that He's hung on the cross with his hands and feet nailed. It will depends on one's pre-existing mindset, volition and many other factors. Just like how hard it is to overcome grief when someone close to us dies, how hard it is for criminal to truly repent...etc will depends on circumstances...different people, different emotional repertoire, different proclivity, fortitude, external situation, support...etc Again "by how hard" i don't meant to say it is easy... And there is not much detail about the thief on the cross so there's big room for speculation. Anyway, there is no absolute answer for this argument if we were to apply the same event to different people. The point i'm making is- if the sinful tendency still persist within the believer, it might jeopardize salvation. QUOTE Answer this first and I'll attend to your other questions about Cain and Abel and about resting in God producing the works of God in the believers life. That too and what you quoted above is erroneous doctrine in your context. I'm fine with error and look forward to upgrade my arguments.
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unknown warrior	Aug 2 2015, 10:04 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #563
/k/ Legend Senior Member 6,240 posts Joined: Jul 2005	QUOTE(loud @ Aug 2 2015, 09:42 PM) That is not what i meant, sorry for the bad phrasing... i must have mistaken what you mean by "How difficult was it for Him to attain Salvation?" and reply with the same tune... It will depends on one's pre-existing mindset, volition and many other factors. Just like how hard it is to overcome grief when someone close to us dies, how hard it is for criminal to truly repent...etc will depends on circumstances...different people, different emotional repertoire, different proclivity, fortitude, external situation, support...etc Again "by how hard" i don't meant to say it is easy... And there is not much detail about the thief on the cross so there's big room for speculation. Anyway, there is no absolute answer for this argument if we were to apply the same event to different people. The point i'm making is- if the sinful tendency still persist within the believer, it might jeopardize salvation. I'm fine with error and look forward to upgrade my arguments. So what did the thief do remove that sinful tendency? You'er not really able to answer what you're suggesting aren't you? This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 2 2015, 10:05 PM
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loud	Aug 2 2015, 10:12 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #564
Casual Junior Member 373 posts Joined: Oct 2013	QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 2 2015, 10:04 PM) So what did the thief do remove that sinful tendency? You'er not really able to answer what you're suggesting aren't you? Bro, you are the one who bring up the thief story. I only meant to evaluate my point in a wider scale, not interested in such speculation.
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unknown warrior	Aug 2 2015, 10:22 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #565
/k/ Legend Senior Member 6,240 posts Joined: Jul 2005	QUOTE(loud @ Aug 2 2015, 10:12 PM) Bro, you are the one who bring up the thief story. I only meant to evaluate my point in a wider scale, not interested in such speculation. Well, first and foremost all your wider point are based on speculations at most. I bring up the incident of the dying thief to kill off all your speculations and thank God for including that part of history. Because God foresaw there will be people with your mindset trying to discredit the Gospel. The dying thief is key to understanding what Grace is all about. The Salvation that God offer comes by having Faith in Christ as the Savior. It can't get any easier than that. That dying thief simply believe Jesus is the Son of God. Romans 4:5 proves this. Romans 4:5 (NIV) - However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. God made is easy for anyone who believe in Christ unto Salvation. It is the thinking of Man that tries to complicate it. That is the religion of this world, law based. This Gift of Salvation is also offered to you freely. Think about it when you have the time. Just a word of advice. You may think this is fun to you, exercising what you think is just a buttheading challenge. What you don't realize is, you're trying to change the word of God to something that is not which is what we call perverting the Gospel as what Paul mentioned in the books of Galatians. Real People have died because of holding on to the integrity of the Gospel, this is not a fiction or some made up story. This is a very serious matter to us. If you want to continue based on "just for fun", my advice is, stop. If you want to learn then be genuine and respectful, we can continue. This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 3 2015, 01:29 PM
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AthrunIJ	Aug 2 2015, 10:38 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #566
Look at all my stars!! Senior Member 2,992 posts Joined: Feb 2015	QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 2 2015, 12:50 PM) » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « IN the context of Forum member loud, Using those 2 verses to justify the doctrine that, Salvation depends on what we do on our part (man's effort) is erroneous in understanding. Because if we go by that line of logic, basically what you're saying is I got Salvation because of my effort in loving and abstaining from all wrong doing contradicts Ephesians 2:8-9: Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV) - …8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. And If I can attain Salvation because of that, I don't need Christ to be my savior. This goes against the core meaning of Grace and doctrine of our Faith which is heresy. SO what is 1 Corinthians 13 and Galatians 5 all about then? Read it in context. 1 Corinthians 13 basically tells that of all the attributes, Faith Hope and Love the greatest is Love, that's all. Why? Because the very essence of Love is God himself. When we Love we exhibit Christ, meaning We testify the evidence of a Living God, Christ Jesus to people who don't know God/Yet to Know or Don't want to know, so that they cannot deny there is God. All of all the attributes, Love is the strongest to break all these barriers. This is the context. Galatians 5 The Book of Galatians basically explains that there is another Gospel that was trying to make inroad and pervert the Gospel that Paul Preaches. And this New gospel basically is the same problem what we face today as in the days of the apostle Paul; which is the Gospel of Mixture of Works and Grace. They are trying to introduce Law back into the gospel. (Galatians Chapter 1-4). Law basically typify the meaning of Man's Effort. If you read Galatians 3:3, it defines perfectly what is the meaning of the works of the Law. Read the New Living Translation because it gives a very accurate interpretation of that meaning. if you read carefully, Galatians 5 basically explains Those who Belongs to God and Those who don't. Ironically the very beginning of Verse 1 in Galatians 5 already say this in defense of what I preach: 1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Christ set us free from the Law. The Law (man's effort) is a yoke of slavery. Man's effort basically covers Man's performance, I can Love I can abstain from wrong actions. It's all about my performance. If we go back to the Law, whether complete or mixture of Law and Grace, Christ becomes of no value. He then goes on to explain those who belong to God and those who don.t Those who belongs to God is explained in verse 24: Galatians 5:24 (NIV) - Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. In comparison with those who are not Christians who are bound to the corruption of Flesh. Galatians 5:19-21 9 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this* will not inherit the kingdom of God. * Those who live like this means those who are not saved. They are helplessly subjected and controlled by the corruption of the flesh as above. Those who are saved is define in verse 24 as above. And verse 1 of Galatians 5 stand in testimony of this. Because we now have Christ (Christians) in our lives, we are free from this corruption and it takes the renewing of our mind to agree and conform to God's Word for it to happen and it will be a journey, meaning it will take time. But mean while, in between the growing period, are we saved? The answer is yes. I see........ Thanks for your time to explain buddy. This post has been edited by AthrunIJ: Aug 2 2015, 10:38 PM
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unknown warrior	Aug 2 2015, 10:44 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #567
/k/ Legend Senior Member 6,240 posts Joined: Jul 2005	QUOTE(AthrunIJ @ Aug 2 2015, 10:38 PM) I see........ Thanks for your time to explain buddy. You're welcome.
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loud	Aug 3 2015, 01:47 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #568
Casual Junior Member 373 posts Joined: Oct 2013	QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 2 2015, 10:22 PM) Well, first and foremost all your wider point are based on speculations at most. I bring up the incident of the dying thief to kill off all your speculations and thank God for including that part of history. Because God foresaw there will be people with your mindset trying to discredit the Gospel. The dying thief is key to understanding what Grace is all about. Let me try, here is the context of the story; Luke 23 39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]” 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” The thief was accepted because his faith comes with repentance. And if you want to talk about repentance(in a general sense), it can happen with or without invoking God. As there are people who believes in God but full of hate and vengeance even until the end of their life so using this story to support your premise is ambiguous. QUOTE The Salvation that God offer comes by having Faith in Christ as the Savior. It can't get any easier than that. That dying thief simply believe Jesus is the Son of God. Romans 4:5 proves this. Romans 4:5 (NIV) - However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4 in context is talking about ceremonial law( circumcision, blood sacrifice...etc) same with Ephesians 2. You are confused because you tak sabar-sabar want to go to heaven and overlook the moral law(effort to culminate love and peace), go read Matthew 5, Galatians 5 and 6 together in context. And if you read Ephesians 2 along with verse 10, it talks about doing good works again. There are verses that say abolish the law and other verses say fulfill the law, the only meaningful way to reconcile it is to distinguish them as different laws. QUOTE God made is easy for anyone who believe in Christ unto Salvation. It is the thinking of Man that tries to complicate it. That is the religion of this world, law based. This Gift of Salvation is also offered to you freely. Think about it when you have the time. Only after you nailed me to the cross with profound truth. QUOTE Just a word of advice. You may think this is fun to you, exercising what you think is just a buttheading challenge. What you don't realize is, you're trying to change the word of God to something that is not which is what we call perverting the Gospel as what Paul mentioned in the books of Galatians. Real People have died because of holding on to the integrity of the Gospel, this is not a fiction or some made up story. This is a very serious matter to us. If you want to continue based on "just for fun", my advice is, stop. If you want to learn then be genuine and respectful, we can continue. Out of respect for the Christian Fellowship, at least in this thread, i already try my best to avoid scientific topic nor did i demand geological/historical evidence for biblical events... Even if i intend(my nasty atheist tendency actually ) to insult you guys where goes your perseverance? 1 Peter 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Luke 6:22 Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « I insult you guys and you guys get the blessing...i abit jelly already...ok la next time i try be more polite la.
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unknown warrior	Aug 3 2015, 02:01 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #569
/k/ Legend Senior Member 6,240 posts Joined: Jul 2005	QUOTE(loud @ Aug 3 2015, 01:47 PM) Let me try, here is the context of the story; Luke 23 39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]” 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” The thief was accepted because his faith comes with repentance. And if you want to talk about repentance(in a general sense), it can happen with or without invoking God. As there are people who believes in God but full of hate and vengeance even until the end of their life so using this story to support your premise is ambiguous. Romans 4 in context is talking about ceremonial law( circumcision, blood sacrifice...etc) same with Ephesians 2. You are confused because you tak sabar-sabar want to go to heaven and overlook the moral law(effort to culminate love and peace), go read Matthew 5, Galatians 5 and 6 together in context. And if you read Ephesians 2 along with verse 10, it talks about doing good works again. There are verses that say abolish the law and other verses say fulfill the law, the only meaningful way to reconcile it is to distinguish them as different laws. Only after you nailed me to the cross with profound truth. Out of respect for the Christian Fellowship, at least in this thread, i already try my best to avoid scientific topic nor did i demand geological/historical evidence for biblical events... Even if i intend(my nasty atheist tendency actually ) to insult you guys where goes your perseverance? 1 Peter 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Luke 6:22 Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « I insult you guys and you guys get the blessing...i abit jelly already...ok la next time i try be more polite la. What acts of repentance there is? The dying thief couldn't perform anything. So is that easy or hard? Answer me now. I'll answer the rest about your claims of ceremonial law, cain and abel, and among others, this I promise. But Answer the above first. All your other avenues have been destroyed; need rigorous mind training and all that eastern mysticism religion is out of the window.
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loud	Aug 3 2015, 02:10 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #570
Casual Junior Member 373 posts Joined: Oct 2013	QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 3 2015, 02:01 PM) What acts of repentance there is? The dying thief couldn't perform anything. So is that easy or hard? Answer me now. I'll answer the rest about your claims of ceremonial law, cain and abel, and among others, this I promise. But Answer the above first. All your other avenues have been destroyed; need rigorous mind training and all that eastern mysticism religion is out of the window. The repentance of the heart which a person regains a clear conscience to recognize and admits his wrong doing.
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unknown warrior	Aug 3 2015, 02:11 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #571
/k/ Legend Senior Member 6,240 posts Joined: Jul 2005	QUOTE(loud @ Aug 3 2015, 02:10 PM) The repentance of the heart which a person regains a clear conscience to recognize and admits his wrong doing. You're not answering my question.
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loud	Aug 3 2015, 02:17 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #572
Casual Junior Member 373 posts Joined: Oct 2013	QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 3 2015, 02:11 PM) You're not answering my question. Your question "easy or hard" is not relevant to the point as i already explain it depends on individuals. Moreover, not much details about the thief, i can simply speculate that he will repent his heart even without meeting Jesus. Certain people who are close to death will suddenly change their mindset out of fear or other reasons...
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unknown warrior	Aug 3 2015, 02:23 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #573
/k/ Legend Senior Member 6,240 posts Joined: Jul 2005	QUOTE(loud @ Aug 3 2015, 02:17 PM) Your question "easy or hard" is not relevant to the point as i already explain it depends on individuals. Moreover, not much details about the thief, i can simply speculate that he will repent his heart even without meeting Jesus. Certain people who are close to death will suddenly change their mindset out of fear or other reasons... Well..even if what you say is true (which is not), Let say, The dying their did out of fear and is not genuine, is that easy or hard?
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loud	Aug 3 2015, 02:29 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #574
Casual Junior Member 373 posts Joined: Oct 2013	QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 3 2015, 02:23 PM) Well..even if what you say is true (which is not), Let say, The dying their did out of fear and is not genuine, is that easy or hard? Easy for some, hard for some. An analogy, When driving on a straight lane, suddenly a bull jump in front of the car... If i ask you whether it is easy or hard to avoid and expecting an absolute answer... » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « what paranoid question is this?
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unknown warrior	Aug 3 2015, 02:42 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #575
/k/ Legend Senior Member 6,240 posts Joined: Jul 2005	QUOTE(loud @ Aug 3 2015, 02:29 PM) Easy for some, hard for some. An analogy, When driving on a straight lane, suddenly a bull jump in front of the car... If i ask you whether it is easy or hard to avoid and expecting an absolute answer... » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « what paranoid question is this? It's not a paranoid question. I'm destroying your claims that the Christian Salvation is hard like other religion. And Here is the final blow. If repentance in the mind is all it takes, then that basically also destroy of your claims that the works mentioned in Romans 4:5 is pertaining to ceremonial laws and the 10 commandment is enforced for justification. Why? because the dying thief could not and did not perform even 1. BTW this thing about what you mentioned about repentance is also wrong. I'm not making this any easier for you isn't it? Do you also realize the more you try, the easier all your arguments go down the drain? ha ha. This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 3 2015, 02:44 PM
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loud	Aug 3 2015, 03:19 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #576
Casual Junior Member 373 posts Joined: Oct 2013	QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 3 2015, 02:42 PM) It's not a paranoid question. I'm destroying your claims that the Christian Salvation is hard like other religion. And Here is the final blow. If repentance in the mind is all it takes, then that basically also destroy of your claims that the works mentioned in Romans 4:5 is pertaining to ceremonial laws and the 10 commandment is enforced for justification. Why? because the dying thief could not and did not perform even 1. » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « BTW this thing about what you mentioned about repentance is also wrong. I'm not making this any easier for you isn't it? Do you also realize the more you try, the easier all your arguments go down the drain? ha ha. Why must he need to perform? when a person repents and has faith and also love, the commandment is fulfilled. Romans 13: 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[ 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. To be specific, it is not necessary about performing but self-restrain. Galatians 5 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. All the qualities mentioned above can be known by looking into oneself...without the need to perform by bodily action nor speech. As mentioned before, a person can perform good deeds but has ill intention in his mind. edit... not to say good deed is not important, if it is done with the right intention, it can help reinforce wholesome mental habits hence it has its own role. This post has been edited by loud: Aug 3 2015, 03:23 PM
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unknown warrior	Aug 3 2015, 03:22 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #577
/k/ Legend Senior Member 6,240 posts Joined: Jul 2005	QUOTE(loud @ Aug 3 2015, 03:19 PM) Why must he need to perform? when a person repents and has faith and also love, the commandment is fulfilled. Romans 13: 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[ 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. To be specific, it is not necessary about performing but self-restrain. Galatians 5 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. All the qualities mentioned above can be known by looking into oneself...without the need to perform by bodily action nor speech. As mentioned before, a person can perform good deeds but has ill intention in his mind. Okay, let me up this one for you. Aren't you the one on the side of "Faith without works is dead" camp?
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loud	Aug 3 2015, 03:23 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #578
Casual Junior Member 373 posts Joined: Oct 2013	QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 3 2015, 03:22 PM) Okay, let me up this one for you. Aren't you the one on the side of "Faith without works is dead" camp? It is "Faith without Love/virtue is dead" camp. This post has been edited by loud: Aug 3 2015, 03:24 PM
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unknown warrior	Aug 3 2015, 03:25 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #579
/k/ Legend Senior Member 6,240 posts Joined: Jul 2005	QUOTE(loud @ Aug 3 2015, 03:23 PM) It is Faith without Love/virtue camp. Faith is proven in Luke 23 but Loving other? When did the dying thief do that? And what did he do to repent? Just saying is enough? This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 3 2015, 03:27 PM
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loud	Aug 3 2015, 03:31 PM Show posts by this member only \| Post #580
Casual Junior Member 373 posts Joined: Oct 2013	QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 3 2015, 03:25 PM) Faith is proven in Luke 23 but Loving other? When did the dying thief do that? And what did he do to repent? Just saying is enough? Luke 23 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” He shows compassion to others...
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