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 LYN Christian Fellowship V10 (Group)

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loud
post Aug 3 2015, 03:45 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 3 2015, 03:43 PM)
Ah you didn't understand my point.

He has yet to prove himself with acts of Love or compassion, you mean to say just by mere saying is good enough for Salvation?

Like that anyone also can just "talk" what.  icon_rolleyes.gif
*
Abo how? you want me to speculate he is RobinHood and actually commit the crime to help others because he is full of love?
loud
post Aug 3 2015, 09:05 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 3 2015, 03:51 PM)
haha I find it a bit funny, now the role is reverse and you're actually defending what I shared in my devotion which is the doctrine of no works involved, just plain Faith in the Messiah. whistling.gif

So want to finally admit you don't know and allow me to answer? or you want to continue this fruitless venture and continue to see more confusion and that your points do not hold?

You must remember, way back earlier, you insisted the 10 commandment must be reinforced and because of that Christianity's Salvation is as hard as other religion or you want to repeat all your debunked point one more time which keep changing as we go? (you can check back page 27, Post #539).
*
I have yet to see any confusion in my part, here is post #539

Specifically, it is the civil and ceremonial laws that have been overwrite by grace whereas the moral law should be reinforced;
Galatians 5:13-14
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

...i replied with the same point in post #615

Why must he need to perform? when a person repents and has faith and also love, the commandment is fulfilled.
Romans 13:
9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[cool.gif 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

...explained what i meant by moral law in post #607

Romans 4 in context is talking about ceremonial law( circumcision, blood sacrifice...etc) same with Ephesians 2. You are confused because you tak sabar-sabar want to go to heaven and overlook the moral law(effort to culminate love and peace), go read Matthew 5, Galatians 5 and 6 together in context.

And if you read Ephesians 2 along with verse 10, it talks about doing good works again.
There are verses that say abolish the law and other verses say fulfill the law, the only meaningful way to reconcile it is to distinguish them as different laws.


debunk your claim that "man's effort is not needed" in post #596


That is either a strawman or your misunderstanding. It is an obvious error to equate the law with man's effort.
To place your faith in God, to remember God and to thank God all the time, this itself needs rigorous mental effort of being mindful.
To be able to resist temptation and challenges from other doctrines, this again needs effort of studying and understanding your own doctrine.
The fact that faith alone does not spontaneously leads to love(as shown in the example of Cain and Abel also other verses) means one needs to make additional effort to fulfill God's desire.
And the fact that bible repeatedly call for Christian to put into practice its moral teaching.

To simplify it, it takes 2 condition for Christian salvation. 1)Faith 2)love/virtue, and with the points given above, no it is not any easier than other religion.




QUOTE
Before that you insist, practicality is needed, now you silently supporting just mind thoughts is good enough.
Mind thought is not mental effort? not man's effort/performance?
you contradict what you wrote earlier;
....Christ set us free from the Law. The Law (man's effort) is a yoke of slavery. Man's effort basically covers Man's performance, I can Love I can abstain from wrong actions. It's all about my performance. If we go back to the Law, whether complete or mixture of Law and Grace, Christ becomes of no value.

...All your other avenues have been destroyed; need rigorous mind training and all that eastern mysticism religion is out of the window.



QUOTE
Up to you Man, we can do this all day or we can move on to something fruitful, something for you to learn as what you said, nailed to the truth of the cross.

For now, the fruit of the discussion will requires you to be more attentive when reading my posts.
loud
post Aug 4 2015, 12:47 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 3 2015, 10:26 PM)
So in other words, what you mean is failure to uphold moral law means forfeiting Salvation Am I right?

In that case why need Christ at all? Do you know what is the meaning of Christ in essence? Not unless you're suggesting we don't actually need God for Salvation that we can save ourselves  whistling.gif

I uphold it, I qualify, I failed to uphold it, I disqualify.

Still not seeing the confusion you're making?  smile.gif

Okay lah I help you understand. Perhaps I should use word or lingo, one that atheist Buddhist are more accustomed, you'll understand better.

If Salvation depends on my deeds or virtue of Love (whether mental or physical act) it is still based on my performance. If Salvation depends on Human deeds/virtue/performance then my argument against all that you have said is that Christ need not come. The very meaning of Messiah or Christ means Savior. Meaning one who saves us. Why? Because we cannot save ourselves by our own deed/performance/virtue. If we can save ourselves through our act of virtue, we don't need a savior.

But the Fact that Christ did come, basically debunks and destroy all your arguments. Why? Because God knows you cannot.

And to remove the argument that grace just replaced the ceremonial laws,

If you read 2 Corinthians 3, The Bible refer the Law as a ministry of death or in other words a Ministry that kills that cannot give you life. And it's glory is fading away. Glory fading away means another covenant is replacing it.

2 Corinthians 3:4-11
4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Noticed that the Ministry of letters engraved on stone = Ten commandments, the Moral Laws. If God wanted you to reinforce or uphold the 10 commandment, He wouldn't call it a ministry death, would He?
*
Ok, i start to get where the core of our disagreement is. I think it has to do with both semantic issues and also your misunderstanding. Can't blame anyone since the bible is full of parables.

1)First, what is mean by reinforcing the moral law does not mean the 10 commandment shall be practiced more diligently in the same way.
When the old covenant is replaced by the new covenant, no matter how you want to argue, it is still a law.
The different is the approach.

New moral law says use love to fulfill the old law which is the way of reinforcing the essence(morality/righteousness) of the law.
Romans 8:4
4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Still talking about the law but different approach.
In practical sense, the approach of the new law is to brings one’s attention to the root of the sin(which is to watch and renew the mind) rather than working on surface watching only one’s deeds and the written letters(dos and don’ts).


2)Secondly, the old law is sometimes call the ministry death because if a person is without love, he will be haunted by guilt for his wrong doing and fall into self-condemnation for without love one can't afford to forgive oneself.
And love in the biblical context is not as simple as you think;
1 Corinthians 13
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

1 Corinthians 13
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.



3)Thirdly, even if i wait until doomsday your premise can never explain Matthew 5:17-48. Hence, until you can do that, your argument fails to defend the cross as they were based on narrow and selective interpretation.




QUOTE
So it's not just ceremonial laws.

The ministry of righteousness  here is referring to Righteousness by Faith in Christ. This is enforced in the Bible many times over so no arguing on that. Your righteousness counts for nothing.

And Romans 4:15 also mentioned that the Law Bring Wrath And where there is no law there is no transgression.

The word transgression is the same word used in Hebrews 9:15 which refer the Law as the entire Law.  whistling.gif

Again, There goes your ceremonial law interpretation out of the window. whistling.gif

False dichotomy. Refer my points above.




QUOTE
And in Ephesians 2, read carefully. We were created by God to do Good works, IT also say in the same breath it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. So Good works or whatever works is not the condition to be saved in the sight of God.

And Yet all these is not exhibited by the dying thief because Love must be expressed to another human being and not to thin air. Because against thin air, there is no justification.  What moral law and whom did the dying exhibited to as the conditioned to be saved? The answer is no one.

I already explained that love/up holding moral law has more to do with self-restrain/control as not to harm others and oneself. Read again Romans 13:8-10;
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Does it say anything about expressing love outwards?




QUOTE
And no I did not contradict anything.

Man's Effort mean whatever that's produced by the said person.

Galatians 3:3 (NLT) - How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? The word used there is human effort.

It does not negate the fact about how the failure of a believer to love is going to risk losing salvation.



QUOTE
So if human efforts is good enough (be it mental effort) to attain Salvation then you still disqualify the meaning of Grace. Love /Virtue still comes from your performance anyway. So you debunk nothing really.

And think about it.  If you say that 2 conditions are required to be saved, Faith and Love/Virtue.

You're also saying on 1 hand you rely by Faith to saved by Christ and on the other hand you rely by performance by your act of Love/Virtue.

Then you also discredit

Romans 11:6 (NLT) - And since it is through God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's grace would not be what it really is--free and undeserved.

KJV says it like this

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Works in the Greek is ergon which means work, labor, action, deed. All this points to Man's effort.

Romans 11:6 basically means you cannot have both; Grace and Works/Efforts/Deeds together because it contradicts each other.

You are oversimplifying it. The context is basically talking about God's discriminating free gift, not to mean it shall interfere with one's future effort.
read in context with verse 7, it says among many who "sought", a few succeed.
" What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened",
(NLT)
So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened.

Therefore, if one does not make any effort to seek for God, will God have answer them?
To take the first step to believe is itself man's effort so you are contradicting yourself again and again...unless you are talking about a wider context of experience which is the topic of predestination.



QUOTE
The 10 commandments is all about Man's performance.

Thou Shall not
Thou Shall not
Thou Shall not.

Who is that thou? Answer = You, Who is the Focus to perform the 10 commandment/moral Law? Answer = You.
Even when you love someone, who is the one doing the act? Answer = You.

So as the effort to build faith.



QUOTE
So for the last time, there goes your interpretation of works referring to ceremonial law down the drain.

The Law = referring to Man's performance or deed if you will.

Refer the the 3 points at the top.




QUOTE
And I'll close with this

1 Corinthians 15:56 (NIV) - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

If you enforce the Law, you enforce the power of Sin.  smile.gif

1 Corinthians 15:56 basically check mates all your arguments combined.

Give it up Loud.  smile.gif  You cannot win this. This is the word of God.

Erroneous interpretation. The bible always speak in parable so one shall analyzed it with other verses for evaluation.
Romans 7
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

The law(old covenant) does not enforce the power of sin, but rather makes it transparent. But it has its limitation in fighting sin therefore love is stressed.
Romans 8:
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[cool.gif God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.
4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

And the spirit is all about culminating love and peace which requires one's mental effort. In a realistic and practical sense, you can't wait for the invisible tongkat to drive you all the time.
Phillipians 4
8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.

As for why the law is called the ministry of death, refer my second point on top of the post.




QUOTE
BTW I noticed a lot of what you've just wrote in the past couple of pages are copied ideas from the Internet.
I mean if you just copy pasta without understanding it, you're just playing record by memorizing.

This is not the way to learn.

You mean the different law part, i thought it was supposed to be a common and widely accepted knowledge among Christians so how can you belittle it as just “copied ideas”?
Anyway, i already explained my point with scriptural support.



QUOTE
I'm not going to throw away the gem of Cain and Abel's revelation if you're going to keep on having this offence against us because you'll just twist it's meaning with your agenda.

You scared. laugh.gif

This post has been edited by loud: Aug 4 2015, 12:56 PM
loud
post Aug 4 2015, 10:14 PM

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Write until so long, read until my eyes also blur...
Just kidding, thanks for the effort.


QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 4 2015, 02:52 PM)
The core difference of your understanding is not supported by the Bible. I'll give you the explaining verses.

Btw, It wouldn't be a misunderstanding on my part because I live by the principals of the Bible and it works. Whereas earlier you admitted you will only take explanation of scripture if it make sense to you as an atheist ironically one who don't really in the Bible nor the God of the Bible. Go google Bible dead letter. I find that ironically comical because You're committing the same problem of the pharisees whom they think by the diligent study of scripture they will understand it and yet they missed Jesus Completely (As have you), the one which what the Bible is all about. I notice you also ignore replying most of time whenever I mentioned about Christ. I wonder why.
*
Because i focus more on the practical message.
Furthermore, if the salvation really depends on Jesus, then how you explain those who perished before Jesus came. Abraham does not need Jesus to receive grace.



QUOTE
1) Well, you're still basically saying Salvation can be attained by one's own effort. And I agree, doesn't matter if it's ceremonial law or moral law, it is still Law. Even if you take the different approach to fulfill the Law it is still in essence trying to fulfill the Law. Meaning qualifying yourself by the standards of the Law And if you say the Law is used for justification for righteousness which also means qualifying entering Heaven then This already contradict Ephesians 2:8-9.

…8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

And verses 10 says one still needed to do the good works God's prepared. Also read 1 Corinthians 13:4 when love is made pure, it does not boast so there is a paradox here. The effort is to culminate love apart from having faith.


QUOTE
Ephesians 2:15 is talking about the Law as a composite whole, not just ceremonial law so that excuse is out.

And the question I need to ask you, one you must answer, are you saying that the Law is needs to be reinforced for justification for Righteousness? Something I noticed you're conveniently being silent about.

Not exactly, it is reinforced to help man deals with sin more efficiently...as explained; not necessary by deeds or putting one's effort on being obedience to the written letters, but by renewing the mind with good qualities.



QUOTE
2) No that is not what the ministry of death means, you add that up on your own reasoning. Read 2 Corinthians 3:6.

I pretty much counter this with my first point on previous post.



QUOTE
3) Already explained it in my devotion. Christ gave the Law and up the standard to bring Man to the end of himself. It's in post #527.

Looks like you also made this up with your own reasoning. Anyway thanks for linking it with Matthew 19, it gives some insight.
I suppose what you mean by the bold part is to give up completely self-effort and follow Jesus right? macam biasalah...
But i don't think so, the real message behind the context of Matthew 19 is about detachment. Since a typical man is fill with greed and selfishness, it takes serious mental effort to overcome it. So again when love is made pure, selfishness is overcome and vice versa. 1 Corinthians 13:5 love is not-self seeking.
Thus your explanation of Matthew 5 fails to hit the point. And reread again Matthew 19:16-30, it does not say upholding the moral law is useless, indeed it is a pre-condition for salvation.

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
....



QUOTE
No 2 Corinthians 3:4-11 and Romans 4:15 is referring to the 10 commandments which is the primary Law as a whole.

2 Corinthians 3:7 (NIV) - Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,

Only the 10 commandment is written and engraved on Stones. Stone tablets to be precise.
Romans 4:15 (NIV) - because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. The word transgression in the Greek, parabasis
Same word and meaning in

Hebrews 9:15 (NIV) - For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. The word Sin there in the Greek is parabasis.
Same question to you;
if the salvation has to depend on Jesus, then what about those who perished before Jesus came?



QUOTE
Love your neighbours being the focus? lol. Sorry Debunked.

I mean to say culminate love.


QUOTE
Well, That is what you say. smile.gif

But not what the Bible says, the requirement of Salvation is founded on the work of Christ and when we believe in Faith, God credit that as Righteousness.
The teaching of Love is another whole aspect, but not as how you put it.

The teaching of love is the core of the new law along with faith. You have faith don't have love, you are nothing...says the bible.




QUOTE
biggrin.gif God's free Gift is not discriminating. It is freely given. That is the meaning of Grace. Giving it to you even though you don't deserve it.

doh.gif  No. verse 7 is talking about Israel rejecting God's Grace and sought to establish their own righteousness. Read Romans 10:3.

No contradiction. The first step is to believe IN CHRIST as the saviour, Christ being the focus. The confidence is based upon Christ's Effort, not one's own effort.

Comprehension failed. Please take your time and reread what i wrote.



QUOTE
doh.gif Effort to build Faith? I want to cry really. In the context of putting Faith in Christ as the Messiah, it's the matter whether you believe or you don't.

Building Faith..  doh.gif Is that what they teach in Universal Unitarian?  laugh.gif Faith comes by hearing the word of God not by your effort in conjuring them and the Bible says Law is not of Faith.

Galatians 3:12 (NIV) - The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

If you go by Law, you don't need Faith. But if you go by Law then you depend on Law all the way hence the meaning in the phrase "The person who does these things will live by them."

With that being said, then which part of God's word that brings Faith? The Answer is God's Grace who is Jesus Christ. When we hear more of Christ, Faith will come. Ie; What Christ did for us.

And to hear God's word means to study the scripture or invest your time in the Church listening to sermon, so you tell me all this activities don't need effort?



QUOTE
doh.gif  Where in the world did you get your interpretation from?  laugh.gif ..It has limitation in fighting sin, ha ha ha.

It's designed to provoke and empower. Sin in your life and cause you not being able to carry it out la bro. ha ha ha, what a cute interpretation.

Read Romans 7:9 (NIV) - Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
It is a metaphor. Sinful behavior was exhibited in human since the first generation without the need to wait for the law to come. This alone pretty much debunked what you wrote below and you don't even attempt to comprehend why the whole chapter is praising the law as holy, righteous, good and spiritual.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «




QUOTE
For Christians, the power of God is our tongkat. Only God has the power to change our life and it comes by resting the finished work of Christ, not by your deed/effort or whatever virtue. Because by our own effort we cannot. Romans 7:18-20 explains why, along with all these verse. Maybe that's why you never did understand the Bible.

Give it up la bro, the more you post, the more I see you deviating the power of Christ and perverting the Gospel back to Man's Effort.

One which you still incapable to answer me.

Why did Christ came? Know or don't know?

He came to preach love and improved the law.



QUOTE
common and widely accepted? What you quoted all above sounds a lot like Eastern Religion and like the rest of the world's religion which is Law Based.
You're basically, trying to promote a Christless or Godless Doctrine, meaning you can achieve righteousness by man's effort which is heresy to us.

I thought i did say 2 conditions for Christian. It shall be both grace(from God) and effort(to culminate love and faith) as explained countless time.
Maybe it is time for you to teach me how to practice love without self-effort.


QUOTE
Ours is founded on God's Grace and that makes us different and unique.

So far not much convincing. Wait i do more research and give you more challenging question...


QUOTE
Not at all. In fact I wanted to because it stands on what I've been sharing all along. I know the revelation in there. But seeing how terrible you are in twisting and adding the Bible meaning according to your own understanding, I have reservation.

Well maybe you don't understand I take the Word of God very seriously and holistically it's not something for you to peddle according to your whim and fancy.

But if you don't explain and enlighten me, i will keep repeating the same argument...you not boring? or you use this strategy to make me boring then chase me away... laugh.gif

This post has been edited by loud: Aug 4 2015, 10:21 PM
loud
post Aug 6 2015, 11:45 AM

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Sorry abit late,
when you nailed me to the cross you forgot to nail at the heart, today the devil came back to haunt you.



QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 5 2015, 11:35 AM)
Well to avoid getting blurry eyes, Then Lets keep this simple shall we? If you want to write long rebuttals, I will only reply in kind.  Just know that this is my God and my Faith, you think I will give up? Maybe you can say I'm a little bit more passionate than most Christians and perhaps a little more zeal.  . How can I turn my back on God after all He has done for me, my life and my family. I was almost dead if not because of my God. I am indebted but can never repay no matter what. So with that being said, you think for one moment I will allow you to malign God's word and Put Him on the same level as all other religion?

Go Figure, I won't let this go.
*
Great spirit you have. Anyway, whatever this debate turns out to be, let us at least be truthful to ourselves.



QUOTE
Let's break down to few points which is repetitive.

1. It's pointless for you to talk about practical message, you cannot apply this to yourself and think by doing the practicality of the principals in there you qualify. The core qualification of God's salvation still comes from God giving it to you out of his Grace (meaning you don't qualify it by your performance). You cannot wrestle it out of God or to think that God will be indebted to give it to you just because you walk in love and all that nonsensical self effort doctrine.

Not exactly.
I had explained that apart from grace, love is the key and the fulfillment to Christian salvation.
Nothing to do with indebt, it is about fulfilling the new covenant.


QUOTE
There is only 1 condition, which is to believe that He sent Jesus to die on the cross for your sins, that only He alone Saves you because you cannot save yourself no matter what and that Jesus is the Son of God and is God himself, agree that Sin is wrong and that you repent in your mind towards God. (repent towards God means - that you acknowledge He is a Good God and He will help you out of weaknesses that you have and all the problems in your life. )
Lol, said easy salvation and 1 condition but suddenly so many things.
Do you know for a typical man to agree sin is wrong is not as simple as you think?
One needs to distinguish between sin vs righteousness before one can even realize one needs to repent. And there are so many kinds of sinful activities that one may fail to recognize some.
Hebrews 10:26-28 also say believers can fall back if the right condition is not met.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Hebrews 6 shows that Christian salvation can be harder than other religion because God becomes unforgiving when a person fall back after receiving grace.
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

And if you want to rebut me with your old argument “HS is not in them but only on them”, let me remind you i’ve yet to find any verse that can support your claim in a non-ambiguous manner. Anyway, please do elaborate...along with Cain and the rich man.



QUOTE
2. Jesus is already there at the beginning with the Father, in fact He is outside of time. Don't think that Jesus only started to exist in the New Testament. All the Patriarch, Abraham, Moses were all saved by their Faith in God. Read Hebrews 11, it is explained there.

Ok.


QUOTE
3.  Yes, we do good works because we are  created in Christ for Good works.  Before that, as sinners, our natural tendency is towards destructive behaviour, jealousy, rage and all that but now in Christ as born again believer we are commission to good works because we are given new embedded nature, a new DNA behaviour. We don't do it to qualify for Heaven. We do it because that is how God created us, in the born again experience in Christ. You understand?

Mind explaining why it is not embeded in Cain and the rich man.


QUOTE
4. 1 Corinthians 13:4 explains the characteristic of Love. Why Love is important. In fact the whole 1 Corinthians 13 explains Love because in 1 Corinthians 12, it talks about the Gift of the Spirit. Any Gift of the spirit which is not acted in Love becomes non effective. Gift of spirit means Gifts given to every believer to operate for the benefit of God's Kingdom. That is the context.
mean gift exclusive to believer?
If that is the case, explain why almost all the fruits of the spirit(Galatians 5:22) seems universal.
Did God mistakenly credited righteousness or HS into non-believers too?


QUOTE
5. The Law was not given to you to Fight against Sin or to do deal with Sin more efficiently. It is given to expose your sin more clearly. Meaning the more you try to do it, the more Sin will be manifested. It is very plain in these verses, read it again slowly 

Romans 7:9 (NIV) - Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
1 Corinthians 15:56 (NIV) - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

The underlined part i agree. The rest is out of context interpretation. Read verse 21 to 25
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

It is merely illustrating that sinful tendency is overpowering, thus more mindfulness is needed. See below.

QUOTE
This is the result when you put yourself under the Law.

Romans 7:18-20 (NIV) - 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

I think you miscomprehended your source…
Look what it says in the end;
Romans 7: 25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

It basically ask one to be mindful. Conscious effort vs sinful tendency.

Furthermore, James 4:17 says "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them".
If go by your premise, then do tak kena, don’t do also tak kena, how much more confusing can you get than this?

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «



QUOTE
7. No, I did not create it up, it was demonstrated in the story of the Rich Young Ruler in Matthew 19. When Jesus gave him the Law, it brought him to the end of himself. The Law was design for that. And This is not the detachment doctrine as in Buddhism because in Buddhism you do this for to avoid desires and wants so that there is no suffering. In Christianity this is given to show that you cannot. Yes Matthew 5 hits the point perfectly you know why? Jesus elevated the Law to higher position. Yes it is a pre-condition to qualify for Heaven and this is pitted against every sinner and in the Book of James God's standard of qualifying his Salvation is that if you break any 1 point of the Law, you break all of them. So the lingering question towards the people of that day is also pose to you today; Can you keep the Law perfectly without failing?

Hard but not impossible. Like you said, it is a journey of progress. Don’t tell me you can’t testify ever meeting such a good person? Rare of course but not extinct.

Actions was driven by the mind, if one can be constantly conscious enough to notice any sinful mental thought/activities before it transgress into physical actions or speech, then self-control becomes easy. Whether the journey is easy or hard, read answer on no 8.

Back to topic, the thing that is standing between the rich man and Jesus is clearly the former’s greed and attachment. No good reason to say he has no faith otherwise he would not have made any attempt to keep the commandments. Hence, you need elaborate more on no.3.


QUOTE
8. Culminating love? Anyone can say that, if you don't put it in action, it's just "cakap kosong".

Repeating myself, when love is culminated, self-restrain/self-control is also culminated…as shown in many verses.
Most of the bad things that happens in this world is not because people fail to do something but because people fail to stop doing it(corruption).

QUOTE
And the dying thief is the evidence that God's Salvation is by God's grace and not your effort or works. This is consistent throughout the Bible. Even if we go by your erroneous understanding this still proves that Salvation is easy compare to other religion. Did he do long hours rigorous mental meditation? The answer is No. Does God treat people differently when it comes to the matter of righteousness and Salvation? The Answer is No.

It depends on how you live, your upbringing, also your physiological condition. If a person's life is already fill with wholesome habits then it will be pretty easy to love but we know most are not.
Just because a few genius student are able to scored high without studying hard does not mean we shall encourage the general population not to study hard.
Same can be applied to other religion, since you say you are former Buddhist, do you know some of Buddha’s disciples became enlightened after listening to just a few sermon without rigorous meditation? But is it appropriate to dismiss hard work based on rare cases like this?



» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «



QUOTE
10. Read the Whole Passage carefully in Romans 10 then you will understand Romans 11, don't cherry pick.

Romans 11:6-7 (NIV) - …6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

What is it talking about? It's talking about God granting Salvation and how is it obtained?..... by Work or Grace? God says it's by grace and this has been establish in many verse in the Bible.  The Elite here is referring to the Patriarchs like Abraham and Moses and as I have explained in point No.2 They got it by Faith.

The context here is talking about the works of non-believers, it is not really against believer’s work.
The same thing happens to the pagans in OT…
Isaiah 57:12-13
I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you.
When you cry out for help, let your collection of idols save you!

This is what happened when you have a Jealous God.

Plus, Romans 11:6 is probably speaking from the givers angle.

And in a logical sense, work does not cancel grace because free gift can always be added more than one’s work deserves.
Read the parable of the vineyard worker and imagine a slightly different version;
All the workers went to work and finished work at the same time, but out of grace the land owner paid bonus wages to one worker while the rest receive just as promised.


QUOTE
11. Yes, Faith comes by hearing more of Jesus. It does not come by your act of trying to fulfill the Law.  In fact the more you try hear the Law or depend on the Law in this context the more your Faith will diminish (Romans 4:14) That was my point.

Your point is logically flawed.
Let’s analyzed it with verse 15
14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
First, the law here refers to work of non-believers. It does not say Christian shall not try to fulfill the law.
Secondly, the law brings wrath because of the harsh punishment(Leviticus 20), and finally Galatians 5:23 explained what is mean by no law.
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Whether to build faith or to be in tune with the spirit, mental work is needed. It says self-control not God-control embeded DNA.


QUOTE
12. No it's not a metaphor. Yes Sin enter and was exhibited the moment Adam fall but the Law of God is like a towering dead end to tell Man that He cannot overcome it. This is meaning in context.

Refer above.


QUOTE
13. No. Jesus did not come to preach love and improve the Law. He came to die in our place as substitute for our sins. He was punished for our sins. He came to fulfill God's will. He came to save us and be our Saviour. People of this world complain that why isn't God doing anything, the world is getting evil. This is the testimony of the work of God that stands in the testimony of time.

John 1:29 (NIV) - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16 (NIV) - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 6:40 (NIV) - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 10:10 (NIV) -  The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Yes he did. Love is the key and the fulfillment of the new covenant.
1 John 4
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
....

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

QUOTE
You can only have life through Jesus Christ. The power to reign over sin comes through Him by the power of his Spirit and the power of his Grace.

14. You cannot have both Grace and Works (Effort) otherwise Grace is contradicted. (Romans 11:6)

Faith, like everything else has depth to it, thus needs effort to build/strengthen. You wanna hahaha at me again, not this time;
Romans 14
1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters…
…19 So then, let us aim for harmony in the church and try to build each other up.



QUOTE
15. It's not convincing to you because you don't trust God to save, you rather trust yourself.

If God wants people to trust him, He shall convince people first not the other way around.
Actually, the bible did acknowledge this in John verse 4:48 but in reality it fails to deliver most of its claim.

QUOTE
16. I cannot enlightened you by arguments. It doesn't work that way in God's kingdom. It only comes revelation given by God's spirit. As I told you before. The Bible are not dead letters. You cannot read it just like that and try to understand it with your human carnal nature. Unless you have God's spirit in you, the word of God will be offensive against you in everyway.
That is why, what you explain all above is really a waste on your part.

The God spirit you talking about is an imaginary spirit.
In a practical sense, to know what spirit the bible is talking about we just need to analyze its fruits;
Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.



Just for noting, i think most of the argument revolves around argument no.1, no.3 and no.4.

This post has been edited by loud: Aug 6 2015, 12:15 PM
loud
post Aug 8 2015, 01:55 AM

Casual
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Junior Member
373 posts

Joined: Oct 2013
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 7 2015, 01:55 AM)
No I didn't forget, that part belongs to my God as always. I'm just his delivery boy to deliver you his message.

Doesn't matter to me whether you're late or not. Like I said, this is my Faith, I would know if you are wrong and be able to tell you the difference, not the other way round. Let's get that first established. To think that you can come here tell us as the opposite role is laughable because it's something liken to an average joe on the street who read dummies for engineering  trying to teach an experience engineer on engineering.

So you admit you are the devil eh? Then all the more reason for all of us in here to reject your interpretation isn't it?
*
Modern day devils have free themselves from the shackles of myth whereas God and his prophets are still trap within that boundary. Follow my interpretation if you have the courage to venture beyond.

QUOTE
You should ask that on yourself, what's the reason of you coming in here discrediting our Faith? Let's be truthful about that first.

Deluding yourself with special position and waiting for imaginary force to drive you all the way to heaven is bad news for everyone. For humanity sake, i came to restore your sanity.


QUOTE
The longer we go, the more I realize you're trying to enforce some form of Universal Zen Buddhism into Christianity.  Anyway The truth of our scripture have stood the test of time regardless of your debate or your intention. Listen kid, There is always RWI for your need to argue, in case you're totally blind or oblivious this is Christian Fellowship thread. Do you even understand the purpose of this thread? It's not the place for you to to pick fight or to argue with us. It's for us Christians to fellowship.

It's obvious something is probably eating inside of you that caused you to come in here. I mean no one force you to come and start to argue all this.  If you need Jesus, can always pray for you. You want to find somebody to argue with, go to RWI. 

I miss you ma. Apart from the reason mentioned before, there are some unsolved question from the past in v9 so i guess this should be round 2.

If this thread is not convenient, we can borrow DE's thread and continue there... follow you wherever you go.




QUOTE
You must learn to exegesis the Bible accurately down to the root. Salvation in Christianity is the work of Jesus Christ. This is an established fact in our doctrine. Only He alone could fulfill God's law because only He alone is born without Sin. The rest of humanity are all tainted with Sin.

The fact is, his work for Salvation is already a done deal. All we have to do is step into it. There is nothing for us to do, to qualify.  because None of us could fulfilled the Law. If anyone could, Christ did not need to come. But the fact that Jesus did come means nobody did. And  If we still need to qualify, the 10 commandment is more than comprehensive enough. So there is nothing for us to fulfil against whatever Law there is in the New Covenant but to believe. That is the New Covenant, the covenant of God's Grace.

If the Bible never says Love as the condition for Salvation then it is not. The moment you add in something that the Bible does not say, it becomes wrong teaching and can stumble other people. This is not a plaything.Do learn to respect that at least. Don't say something you have not lived and neither experience nor understand of the Christian doctrine pertaining to the Life of God's Kingdom.

And I believe I've already explained  this to you, we love because that is who God made us to be as Christian. It is not the condition to gain Salvation, it is a testimony of who we are in Christ.

However, This is in the Bible and is consistent in the word. God even say "The righteous shall live by Faith" meaning the righteousness of Faith.

John 3:16 (NIV) - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 (NIV) - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.
John 6:40 (NIV) - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Seems like the same arguments with the rest below so i will skip and just answer the rest.


QUOTE
The dying thief is a very good example and it proves this doctrine, the family whom Paul preached proves that. Zacchaeus the tax collector also proves that, (Jesus just gave him grace, no laws) and all of them was saved on the basis of God's grace. Those people are the evidence. God put it in there for us to know.
The dying thief account is ambiguous.
Which book is that about Paul preaching the family?
No, Zacchaeus account was not as simple as you think.
It was the exact opposite to the rich young ruler. He was able to overcome his greed therefore Jesus accepted him.



QUOTE
Then why was the young rich ruler given the Law by Christ? The answer is simple. Anyone who comes before God under the Law, God will give you the Law. But if you come under Grace, He will deal with you base on Grace. It is very consistent throughout the Bible, just take a notice whenever anyone comes to Jesus under the Law, see his responses. The people who come under Grace, see his responses. Study this with an open heart, God may grant you Salvation yet.

Here is the scripture words to back that up.

Romans 6:14 (NIV) - For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Galatians 3:25 (NIV) - Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. (Guardian here refers to the Law)

What these 2 verse means is that, we are put under the covenant of God's Grace. No longer means No longer and Not under means not under.

Romans 6:14 is talking about the result where other conditions are met. Read in context;
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

So before one can be free from the law, one needs to train to abstain from sinful activities first as explained in
Hebrews 12
14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
1 Corinthians 11:28-32
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.


Question 1 Your interpretation of Galatians 3:25 does not make sense. For you say Jesus Christ was all along with God even before he came and even Abraham and many others was justified by faith back then, so how can it says only now faith has come?



QUOTE

If you say that Sin is dependant and realized by man's contemplation then it will be terribly flawed because one man's definition will be different from other. Ever heard the word, one man's mead is another man's poison? The Bible would be a better consistent gauge because it is the word of God. The highest form there is and undiscriminating, what is wrong, it is wrong by the Bible standard.

With regards to Hebrews 10:26-28, I've already explained it in one of my devotion, it is not what as what you say above. It has to do with Apostasy.

Question 2 Then explain why the credited righteousness cannot assure one will not leave faith.
Also other religion are ok with apostasy and willing to re-accept, this debunk your claim Christian salvation is easier.



QUOTE
God's Salvation in Christianity is Easy because it is God who justify and He is the one who saves us, not us. The moment you put your Faith or believe that Jesus is the Son of God and He is your Savior, God credits that as Righteousness to you and grants you Salvation.

Yes I agree that it's a mouthful but they are all related. The primary condition is still Faith. That is the starting point. But to just have Faith does not make sense, so the question is, Faith in what? For what? Those are the parts that I painstakingly explain. What is the whole point of accepting Him in the first place? It's because when one understand that we all have sin in our life and there's nothing we can do to remove it, then we need to look for divine savior. This is one of the reason why Christ came. And for people who reject Christ purposefully, there is no other way to reach God, they stand in judgement with the Devil.

Therefore the key word is "to understand". And to gain understanding one’s need effort(work).
Don't you think it is funny to say justified by faith so no one may boast yet many Christians often boast of their faith dishonoring the ones with weaker faith or no faith. laugh.gif



QUOTE
Anyway...Back to this, It is an obvious that of course we also need to also agree that Sin is wrong, By right I don't have to tell that but for you, I had to explain more in detail because of the way you understand (seems a lot like  typical Atheist Buddhist interpretation rather than a Christian one).

wait later i reshuffle it to agnostic-zen-jew to make it easier for you.
So many Christian denom can you be more specific which one?


QUOTE
What Old Argument HS is not in them but only on them? Why the double "in them"? Don't understand your point one bit.

I thought i red somewhere in your devotion...maybe i got it wrong. doh.gif Wait got time must read back some of your devotion.


QUOTE
Cain and the Rich man parable? The Rich Man Parable, you can find it in one my devotion, it's in the very devotion which you first came in.

Sorry, i mean Matthew 19 the rich young ruler.


QUOTE
As for Cain's revelation here it is:

Understand it, in the Light of the New Testament.

1 John 3:12 (KJV) - Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Cain murdered because He was angry that God showed Favour to his brother instead of him. And what was this over? The answer are the offerings to God. The Approach to come to God. 1 John 3:12 mentioned that Cain's work was evil. But wait a minute, what was the work that was evil?

Cain brought produce of the land while Abel brought Animal Sacrifices. Why did God show favor to Abel instead of Cain? because Animal Sacrifice points to shedding of Blood. The Bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of Sin. This remind of Jesus Christ.

This also symbolizes

1. Abel Symbolizes people coming to God via the blood of Christ.
2. Cain symbolizes people coming to God via self effort.

It has to do with Grace vs Works.

Question 3???
My comprehension skill might be a bit slow but i'm not 3 years old.
Please can you rethink and re-interprete this part...to make it more meaningful.



QUOTE
Because back in the OT, the people had to go by their own performance (own strength) and it's pitted against God's Law, ie the 10 commandments.
This contradicts that Abraham and many others were justified by faith alone. Lol can't believe i just use your favorite argument to counter.


QUOTE

Well first of all, you need to understand what is what.

Gifts of the Spirit are spiritual gifts given to Believers for the edification of the Church like Tongues, Healing, etc. Fruits of the Spirit means the result of the power of God's Spirit which is all that love, joy and peace in the believers life. That is why I said, it doesn't come by will power or Man's effort. Try and digest the word, Fruits of the Spirit. Fruit is not something you produce. It comes from God.

The fruit comes from putting into practice what is taught by Jesus.
In a practical context, the spirit is a metaphor like water and bread to symbolize a spiritual teaching. Not some supernatural entity drilling itself into your head.
If it is as what you claim, what is the justification that it took so much time in altering the host and some host even fall back or renounce?
shouldn't it suppose to give an immediate effect for the sake of being consistent with its omnipotency?
If the physical wound like blindness can be restored immediately, supposedly for reshaping one's character shall not be any harder.

For the sake of friendly debate, i will skip about spiritual healing and speaking in tongues as this will be going into scientific scrutiny which you may not be comfortable.


QUOTE
Righteousness is not credited because one perform the gift of the spirit. It come via Faith, the Righteousness of Faith. (Romans 1:17)

Don't really understand your question. But If I guess right of what you wanted to say, the Bible never says all those attributes are exclusive to Christians. What is exclusive to Christians is that it doesn't come by our own effort. This is something that comes when we rest in God. Something we as believer have in privilege, as oppose to your side that you need to exert your own mind matter and all that self effort.

Proven wrong below.


QUOTE
Here is the exact context of why the Law was given.

Galatians 3:19

New International Version
Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

New Living Translation
Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.

English Standard Version
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

New American Standard Bible
Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

King James Bible
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

It was designed to last until the coming of Christ. Then those who are in Christ, Grace takes over, no more of the Law. So if you say it is needed to fight sin, this verse proves otherwise. For us believers, there is nothing to fight by self effort because Christ has taken care of all our sins. Our new Fight has to do with Faith.

Galatians 3:11 (NIV) - Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."
Nothing to do with mindfulness or whatever that is. Please get that sort of answer out of the Christian equation. The answer is right there anyway.
Read carefully, Nothing there that says to deal it with your mind power or mind over matter (Whatever your mindfulness is). Read it carefully. Here are 5 translation

Romans 7:25

New International Version
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

New Living Translation
Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

English Standard Version
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

New American Standard Bible
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

King James Bible
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The New Living Translation would answer you best. See all the bold part and Read Romans 7:24, the prior verse before that.

In Romans 7:24 it says there:

Romans 7:24 (NIV) What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

Noticed that is is a "who" not a "what - your methodology, your mind, etc" that will rescue him? And the Solution to this is found in Romans 8:1 The "who" is our Lord Jesus Christ.

About the part of Do also kena and don't do also kena, that is exactly what it means. You want to do Good but unable to. You want to refrain from evil but end up doing it. That is the design of the Law. 

Like I said the law is a towering dead end to bring you to the end of yourself. (exactly as how you lamented  laugh.gif ) So that hopefully, you realize that you cannot and need a Saviour. This has stood the test of time. You can even test this on yourself.  Have you been able to consistently live a righteous life? I don't think so. You might do your best but you still fall one way or another.

I wonder if you can read your own source… Of course in Christian theology you need God to save and guide you but it does not dismiss self-effort...please comprehend again the underlined phrase.



QUOTE
Well depends...if good according to Man's standard of what is good then it will be ambiguous because different people have different standards. And that IMO is downplaying God's standard of Righteousness. Anyway, I would say, There is no such person in this world because there is no one is who perfect. Everyone is a sinner.

You ask me about the law of the commandment…


QUOTE
You forgot that it is keeping every single law without breaking them not even once and the ones mentioned in Matthew 5 and to top it off (glad that you picked this record) Jesus told the Young Rich Ruler to give up every cent that was the commandment. The rich young ruler after all did ask, what must I do to have eternal life and Jesus gave that as the Law.  And let say If  I turn the table over to you, can you give up all the money that you have?

The bold part is an error. In this context, it is the tendency that counts not one’s past action. If the sinful tendency(of believers) can be reduced to the extent where it is impossible for one to commit crime anymore, then one is not under the law.

"Can i give up all the money i have?" No, i have my own attachment that is why i said Christian salvation is not easy… but you might also want to post this question to the monks, yogis and other religious mystic.



QUOTE
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Repetitive and addressed...skip



QUOTE
 
Well by your logic then it's very obvious the very reason why he's a thief in the first place basically throws out all that you've argued about Love as the fulfillment in his salvation. I'm sure it would have been tough for him.
As such I submit to you the thief got his Salvation out of God's Grace. Something He didn't earn.

(Guess you're will be doing a U-turn on this)  smile.gif

Already said rare case.
Some student play truant, study on the last hour still can pass exam…



QUOTE
Read Carefully. It's referring to Israel. They are God's chosen people so your argument is moot.

Turn to Romans 10 it refers to Israel disbeliever;
21 But concerning Israel he says,
“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”



QUOTE
Sigh. For the millionth time, Work means it is given indebted to you, because you earn it. Grace means it's given to you unearned. Learn to understand and differentiate the two.
Or you can pick up a dictionary and study the meaning if you don't believe me.

No, The Parable of the workers in the vineyard refers exactly to God's Grace and magnifies Romans 11:6.

Read the Parable carefully. Read verse 15 & 16

15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Some people think they are entitle to the right to have more because they earned it. But God would not have it that way. It is upon his grace that he gives and he is very generous about it. Because God knew some people will inevitable think they have because they qualify.

The keyword is in verse 16, the last will be first, and the first will be last. This phrase was mentioned in 1 chapter earlier, Matthew 19 at the very last bottom and that portion of Matthew 19 talks about Salvation. The Rich Young Ruler thinks He qualify because He fulfilled Salvation with his Law Keeping (the more the merrier), He did say ALL THESE I HAVE KEPT. and Yet in the Parable of the worker in the vineyard, God gave to others who may have not done much.

Now this is a parable, This has nothing to do with work per say but Salvation.

For the hundredth time, you don’t seem to read my post carefully...
quoting my previous post;
Plus, Romans 11:6 is probably speaking from the givers angle.

And in a logical sense, work does not cancel grace because free gift can always be added more than one’s work deserves.
Read the parable of the vineyard worker and imagine a slightly different version;
All the workers went to work and finished work at the same time, but out of grace the land owner paid bonus wages to one worker while the rest receive just as promised.



QUOTE
First refer to the above for the moot point and then refer below for some better understanding.

Let's do better than that, Let's read the entire context:

Romans 4:13-16 (NIV)

13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Verse 13 already discredit that the promise of God via the Law but reinforced that it is by Faith and Grace (Verse 16) smile.gif
You contradict yourself...here is what you wrote;
Because back in the OT, the people had to go by their own performance (own strength) and it's pitted against God's Law, ie the 10 commandments.


QUOTE
And Galatians 5, Look at the word, Fruit of the spirit, Notice 'OF the SPIRIT" Fruits means Result of the Spirit not Effort of Man. The word Spirit here in the Greek is pneuma, referring to the Holy Spirit.

Sorry but your point is flawed at the beginning.

And your explanation is meaningless because the values of those fruits can be produced by human themselves…is anyone here stupid enough to wait for the spirit before you can be gentle and loving by your own effort?



QUOTE
You refer my above also.
The New Covenant is already a done deal fulfilled by Christ, our part is step into it by Faith.

And Look at the very first definition, it helps you to understand Who is the one has done it.

God define Love as this: Not that we love God but He Love us. And because He loves us, He send his son for us, so that we get connected back to God. The focus is on God being the one who has fulfilled this and He is the one who does the Loving.  smile.gif From there it explains because because we are ALREADY saved by God and that we know God loves us, (being given the grace) we also ought to love one another. Bingo! Didn't I say this earlier? It is not the condition to gain Salvation, it is a testimony of who we are in Christ. And look at the passages in there again,This testify it.

Understand the meaning. Because the very essence of God is Love and If we are saved, it also means that His Spirit is in our life. Because his spirit is in our life, the nature of Love is in us. (New DNA). It would be contradictory to Hate others as Christians because the nature of God is never like that. So If anyone He is Saved and that He love God and yet hates his brother is a liar. That is what it means. A Liar, meaning you were never a Christian in the first place. Either because you didn't understand what it means to accept Christ or you never really believe or know God. A Wannabe Christian but without God involved....like you maybe? ( I mean your self centred doctrine apart from God)

This is proven in this verse:

1 John 4:7-8 (NIV) - 7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love

So how can you say one does not need God? Eh?

Another Problem is, you don't know what is the New Covenant. You fling that word very loosely with irrelevant examples.

Same God embedded DNA crap again, 1 Corinthians 13 is clear enough to show faith does not equate to love.
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.


QUOTE
In Verse 1, it talks about those who are strong in Faith not to scorn those who are weak in Faith. Then it goes on to explain; whatever we do, don't stumble the weaker Faith brother. Whatever we do be it eating, drinking whatever acts, make sure it's for the edification of the entire Church so Live in harmony and build one another up, meaning, don't allow our actions to stumble the weaker brother's Faith. Read verse 13.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

And how does one, make every effort to build one another up? Romans 14:20-21 explain it quite clearly which is to refrain from doing any act that may stumble the weaker brother.

. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

All these are referring to the lifestyle of the believer with greater Faith.

I believe Your context is more towards having Faith in God in a greater measure. That comes via hearing the word of God as I've explained in point 11.

These are separate matter.

It still talk about self-effort...the creepy thing that you deny.



QUOTE
And He did. Jesus Christ happened. He performed all those miracles. Don't think it fail. The Signs and wonders happened during Jesus time, it's still happening today and quite frequently in the Church and in our meets, evangelistic, Healing, etc.
No, He is the 3rd part of the Triune God, the Holy Spirit. Very much recorded in the Bible. I mean if you prefer to just cherry pick the Bible, what is the point then for you to argue with me the first place? Don't you think you're doing something stupid and baseless?


Well this is Christianity in case you're delusional. God is the core essence, cannot be remove. Sorry.

Because the bible is full parables and metaphor so you can’t take everything literally.
Besides, there are also discrepancies.
Even many Christian denominations don’t accept the trinity. But this is not a topic for today. Let us settle the self-effort vs God embedded programming issue first.


QUOTE
Up to you. If you want to discuss just point 1, 3 & 4, then discuss just point 1, 3 and 4. If you think by doing long rebuttal, I'm the one who will give up, think again.

ok good that is why i choose to argue with you, you are passionate like the son of man.

This post has been edited by loud: Aug 8 2015, 02:30 AM
loud
post Aug 10 2015, 02:25 AM

Casual
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Junior Member
373 posts

Joined: Oct 2013
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 9 2015, 03:11 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

All replied in the spoiler. 

Doesn't matter who you pick to argue with. Don't see what is so good about arguing in a flawed setting.  First you're an atheist, second you don't believe in the Bible, by those 2 premise alone you can flip flop anytime,  do cherry picking and twist and turn scripture as you like, whatever that fits you whereas I don't and I won't because it's important to stand on integrity by the consistency of the Bible. Having a flip flop stance on your side removes all credibility.  And the best part is, when all your arguments are cornered, you can always fall back on "I don't believe in the Bible anyway" as your escape route.

Unless you and I have the same foundation, don't think this argument will amount to anything. Doesn't matter. What matter is, This thread is Christian Fellowship thread not RWI Believers vs None Believers. You are turning our thread into that garbage. And it's something I don't appreciate.

Another thing is, don't tell me something, I don't already know, what the atheist, buddist or even moslems think about Christianity. You can pull strings by using the word "scientific scrutiny" doesn't change anything.  If you think that Christians is going to leave Christianity because of that, you are sadly mistaken. Even your self effort rubbish rhetoric is nothing new to me, what you have said so far, is something I already know decades ago.  If anything, this is discovery is more for your part. I know my gospel and I know where I stand.

But the real question is, (again) One which I'm really asking myself, Why should I continue this with the flaw setting?


Since I don't believe you're here to respect any of us, neither have the intention to learn  but be a trouble maker and disrupt our harmony in our fellowship thread, I will report your next reply with a very clear conscious.

Do take this warning of mine seriously.
*
No problem, i respect your decision to keep this thread warm and cozy.
I would just post my reply in de's thread and i do hope you will come and argue with me there. laugh.gif

Btw, i meant to say scientific scrutiny will burden you guys because i will be demanding hard evidence and be more critical with my inquiry...that's all. But if you have strong scientific theory to support your claim then advantage will be on your side. Nothing unfair and no conversion needed...just let everyone think and decide for themselves.
loud
post Aug 10 2015, 03:37 AM

Casual
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Junior Member
373 posts

Joined: Oct 2013
QUOTE(tinarhian @ Aug 10 2015, 02:29 AM)
Who is this loud?

I'm on holiday. I got no time to read your nonsense.  mad.gif
*
Why so angry.
This thread is so warm i like to come here.
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