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 Steam now allow modders to charge for their mods, what do you guys think?

What do you guys think?
 
Good idea, let modders geit some compensation for their hard work. [ 20 ] ** [23.81%]
Bad idea, mods should be free or based on donation. [ 64 ] ** [76.19%]
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Skidd Chung
post Apr 28 2015, 02:03 PM

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QUOTE(hfi @ Apr 28 2015, 01:50 PM)
Skidd dude i know you mean well and being optimistic but in regards to Skyrim, it's one of the few games where it should be left alone. The mods there is the result of years of collaboration between modders. Mods being free is not just a thing for gamers but also for other modders who tend to download other mods to look under the hood for the intent and purpose of fixing and/or creating something better or different. This is particularly true for one particular modder and creator of FNIS whose mod helped launch countless other mods. A paywall would deter him from doing what he did and would have likely prevented his mod from coming to fruition.

If they insist of charging for mods then perhaps future titles are where it could be implemented where everyone start from scratch. But Skyrim should be left alone in its current state. As it is this paywall had already fractured some parts of the community. I hope it will recover from this mess.
*
Paid mods for Skyrim is history. It is gone and the modders there will not have an avenue to monetize their work anymore. Now they only have to wait for recognition, donations and work for gratitude.

If this history of Skyrim legacy mods were to be addressed. If the creator of FNIS or any other baseline mods were to be officially recognized and compensated by Bethesda. If Bethesda officially takes this mod and make it as part of the Skyrim client. Would it be more easier for future modders to sell their work? Since there is no more conflict of interest.

But hopefully future games will include mod tools for their games if they can see that this market/scene is where they can continuously extend the lifetime of their IP.

This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 28 2015, 02:16 PM
hfi
post Apr 28 2015, 02:47 PM

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QUOTE(Skidd Chung @ Apr 28 2015, 02:03 PM)
Paid mods for Skyrim is history. It is gone and the modders there will not have an avenue to monetize their work anymore. Now they only have to wait for recognition, donations and work for gratitude.

If this history of Skyrim legacy mods were to be addressed. If the creator of FNIS or any other baseline mods were to be officially recognized and compensated by Bethesda. If Bethesda officially takes this mod and make it as part of the Skyrim client. Would it be more easier for future modders to sell their work? Since there is no more conflict of interest.

But hopefully future games will include mod tools for their games if they can see that this market/scene is where they can continuously extend the lifetime of their IP.
*
If Beth were to take these mods and put it through some proper QA process to deem their worth and comb through any potential problems then sure perhaps these mods are worth a price and everyone involved can be satisfied and get on gaming happily.

A lot of these mods were never stable at launch and it being free meant a lot of people could easily download them and help beta test these mods. This is part of the backlash from the Skyrim community as a lot of these mods resulted from collaboration of not just modders but also users who help tested these mods. A lot of users tend to create patches whenever modders themselves took too long to fix things. This is what Beth and Valve should have offered if they were to implement a paid system. Mods should be officially supported by both modders and developers. As it stood, it was everything modders, Beth and Valve to gain but paying customers to lose. If the mods were broken it was up to modders to fix them without having any obligation to fix it. It was more or less ask them nicely to fix it. It was a shitty deal all around.

They really need to think this one through. Because gameplay altering mods are not as clear cut as cosmetic mods.

This post has been edited by hfi: Apr 28 2015, 02:48 PM
hyperyouth_firepower
post Apr 28 2015, 03:48 PM

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This is going to be a long read, so I hope the long reply won't bore you.

Still,
QUOTE(Skidd Chung @ Apr 28 2015, 01:54 PM)
The system is flawed, yes I agree. It could've been done better. Yes I agree. I will support every fact you quoted about mishandling of refunds, 7 day bans, no possibility of recourse if mods are removed etc. I agree completely how this all looks like it is the worst idea ever.

But you are citing examples of a 3-4 days of use of an infant system. Problems are not being given a chance to be fleshed out and bugs to be squashed. But the concept is right. These workshop mods are from amateurs. This is what exactly you are dealing with in modding community. Quality mods have no chance to get into it yet. The system didn't even last a week because of the back lash. I would dare say no one actually managed to taste the money.

Please don't say ransom, you can still play Skyrim. Mods are optional and always is.

If Falksarr was for sale. Will people buy it? I'm sure people will. Will it be successful? That is the data we do not have. But if it is successful, will it be continuously supported? Can you imagine a mod so successful, it forces the company of the base game to release patches so the mod can work? I can think of one. DayZ mod for ARMA 2.

I know the system is flawed because of implementation. But not the concept. You can protest the bad implementation and it can be fixed. You can demand 48 hours refund instead of 24 hours. You can demand they drop the 7 day ban. It's all just implementation issues.

But the concept of incentive based mod building is still the right way to go.

You may disagree because you believe the concept of modding is to remain free and niche. Strictly Skyrim sense, yes it is niche if only 8% of users uses mods.

I believe the modding scene will grow even bigger and wider if these incentives are introduced. Not exclusive to Skyrim only. There are a lot of games that can be modded. There is a wide pool of basement talents just waiting to be recognized and grow big. And I truly believe with these incentives over time, you will see the results of the system of paid mods growing and improving the mod community.

Note:

Please do not take my not commenting of recent Chesko scandal as skipping on issues. I just think it's a small issue because it will not be a common thing. Currently due to shared resources, the challenge was to prove who is the rightful owner of current established mods. This is a legacy issue with older Skyrim mods but will not affect newer mods that is design with that clause in mind.
*
Sorry, in the years of Skyrim modding, the only patches that Bethesda have downloaded are all DLCs that doesn't even mostly fix issues from previous patches or DLCs, but instead in some cases ADD MORE bugs to the entire game. Skyrim Wiki has a lot of such entries. I'm going to address what you call as a "small issue" base on your following comment below.

QUOTE(Skidd Chung @ Apr 28 2015, 02:54 PM)
No I do not play Skyrim. I hope that fact does not exclude me from the discussion.  smile.gif

I do play Fallout with mods, M&B Warband with mods, Insurgency with mods and CS:GO with community made content. All mods I played are free.

I am discussing the potential of the system of paid mods not only exclusive to Skyrim but to the entire ecosystem of mods that may benefit all consumers in the future if the system takes off.

If Skyrim without unofficial patches is broken. Then the problem is not with mods but with Bethesda.

Is an unofficial patch a mod? Should you pay for unofficial patches? I would say no on both counts. But if you expect work for nothing, you shouldn't have expectations.
*
I myself am an optimistic person, but clearly in this case, you're drinking a lot of Valve and Bethesda kool-aid, and look at the turn of events, since they are irrefutable facts, since you love to talk about facts and your reliance on stats (I know i've been hammering on this point, because at the moment its supporting my argument, that is, for now). The guy who made one of the UNOFFICIAL patches, also made SKYUI / MCM, which allows a lot of other mods to latch on and have a menu of their own.

Guess what happened?

the same guy put SKYUI v5.0 on the paywall, yet claims SKYUI 4.0 will be free. Not to mention SKUI 4.0 and 4.1 is STILL BUGGY. Yet he says development will continue on SKYUI 5.0, and 4.1 will not evolve. That's ESSENTIALLY RANSOMWARE.

To even put it very strongly, since he had all the versions uploaded on a github, somebody actually paid for SKYUI 5.0, dissected it, and guess what? the only "UPGRADE" for SKYUI 5.0 vs SKYUI 4.1 is only 2 lines of codes, where it says "SKYUI version = 4.1" became "5.1". TWO LINES changed, and it ain't cheap too.

Oh yeah, so much for "INCREASE OF QUALITY" that you've been harping about. Oh yeah, so much of it.

QUOTE(Skidd Chung @ Apr 28 2015, 03:03 PM)
Paid mods for Skyrim is history. It is gone and the modders there will not have an avenue to monetize their work anymore. Now they only have to wait for recognition, donations and work for gratitude.

If this history of Skyrim legacy mods were to be addressed. If the creator of FNIS or any other baseline mods were to be officially recognized and compensated by Bethesda. If Bethesda officially takes this mod and make it as part of the Skyrim client. Would it be more easier for future modders to sell their work? Since there is no more conflict of interest.

But hopefully future games will include mod tools for their games if they can see that this market/scene is where they can continuously extend the lifetime of their IP.
*
Wrong. We won one battle but the war is not yet over. There will be new fronts, such as Gary's Mods, and others, and we'll continue to fight corporate greed.



You know, I intend to copypaste one wall of text to which I agree heartily, despite one part of me says "i probably can and should donate to a certain so and so modder because i really want to see him / her continuing development on a certain mod that I enjoy", but here goes


Credits: Kendo

QUOTE
Well. modding for money is hypocritical in the purest sense on all the fronts who favor it.

Just imagine:
Modder A makes mod and it’s free.  Modder B uses Modder A’s assets for his own mod and wants to charge for it.
That’s when Modder A says,”You know what?  Charging for what’ve I made is a great idea.  Go ahead and send me everything you’ve made using my assets and I’ll be the one to upload it to Steam and I’ll be the one who gets paid for it.”

Is Modder B going to go along with that scheme?  Him charging for someone’s work is okay.  Someone else charging for what he made isn’t.  Suddenly charging for mods isn’t such a great idea to Modder B.

Anyway, the 25/75 split is joke and so is the $400.00 quota before the modder makes one penny.  That is a gerbil wheel sales floor mentality.
‘Let’s fill every cubicle with a warm body and get them generating sales.  Anyone who doesn’t hit the $400.00 quota gets no fee and we get to keep everything.  $390.00 last month?  Though shit.  We get to keep your percentage because you didn’t perform.’

Then there is Steam bucks scam; refunds and modder payouts are in Valve Monopoly money, not dollars or Euros.  That means Steam/Valve is taking quantitative funds and exchanging them for a currency THEY determine the value of; a qualitative currency with no real worth.  What happens with the real money?  They keep it and draw interest on it in a 90 day banking cycle and the people stuck with these ‘Steam Dollars’ get nothing, since Valve is treating those Steam accounts due funds as demand accounts.  In other words, your 100 Steam bucks stays that way indefinitely because it isn’t real money and you are not owed interest.  THEY keep the interest.  Depending on the rate, a paltry $100K quarter for a big fish like Valve turns into a serious payday after a 90 day cycle for stuff they didn’t make (mods).  And they don’t have to make any payouts in real cash.

Paying for mods and modding for money a bad idea.
Just to add another comment which I think is true in its very sense

credits to bjornk
QUOTE
Paying more to get better quality is nothing but a capitalist myth. If that was indeed the case, you'd never get a shitass AAA game, as the devs who produce them get a pretty fat paycheck.


This post has been edited by hyperyouth_firepower: Apr 28 2015, 03:50 PM
Skidd Chung
post Apr 28 2015, 05:02 PM

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QUOTE(hyperyouth_firepower @ Apr 28 2015, 03:48 PM)
This is going to be a long read, so I hope the long reply won't bore you.

Still,

Sorry, in the years of Skyrim modding, the only patches that Bethesda have downloaded are all DLCs that doesn't even mostly fix issues from previous patches or DLCs, but instead in some cases ADD MORE bugs to the entire game. Skyrim Wiki has a lot of such entries. I'm going to address what you call as a "small issue" base on your following comment below.
I myself am an optimistic person, but clearly in this case, you're drinking a lot of Valve and Bethesda kool-aid, and look at the turn of events, since they are irrefutable facts, since you love to talk about facts and your reliance on stats (I know i've been hammering on this point, because at the moment its supporting my argument, that is, for now). The guy who made one of the UNOFFICIAL patches, also made SKYUI / MCM, which allows a lot of other mods to latch on and have a menu of their own.

Guess what happened?

the same guy put SKYUI v5.0 on the paywall, yet claims SKYUI 4.0 will be free. Not to mention SKUI 4.0 and 4.1 is STILL BUGGY. Yet he says development will continue on SKYUI 5.0, and 4.1 will not evolve. That's ESSENTIALLY RANSOMWARE.

To even put it very strongly, since he had all the versions uploaded on a github, somebody actually paid for SKYUI 5.0, dissected it, and guess what? the only "UPGRADE" for SKYUI 5.0 vs SKYUI 4.1 is only 2 lines of codes, where it says "SKYUI version = 4.1" became "5.1". TWO LINES changed, and it ain't cheap too.

Oh yeah, so much for "INCREASE OF QUALITY" that you've been harping about. Oh yeah, so much of it.
Wrong. We won one battle but the war is not yet over. There will be new fronts, such as Gary's Mods, and others, and we'll continue to fight corporate greed.
You know, I intend to copypaste one wall of text to which I agree heartily, despite one part of me says "i probably can and should donate to a certain so and so modder because i really want to see him / her continuing development on a certain mod that I enjoy", but here goes
Credits: Kendo
Just to add another comment which I think is true in its very sense

credits to bjornk
*
I read it and I agree some parts of it.

But your conclusions of 'QUALITY' is based on work of amateurs putting their mods for sale. The system is not even a week old. I strictly mentioned quality MODs will come to Skyrim if the incentive is there. QUALITY will come from the new modders going for the incentive. Older mods such as you mentioned that was put in the market are just that, old MODs. No one is getting a dime from sales yet. No one quit their day jobs yet. The system is still in its infancy.

How these modders think they can get away by just charging money for broken products gets called out. Community driven reviews such as the criticism of current mods for sale is extremely important if the market were to stay competitive. Modders know they will be called out if they charge for a broken product. They won't make sale if their reviews are shit. This is where modders know they can only charge for quality.

The 'INCREASE IN QUALITY' is incremental and time consuming. It may take a week or month or year, where the actual modders have more free time as they get independent as the funds come in. Once they quit their day job, its full time modding to keep their products relevant. This is if the modders decides to dedicate full time.

Please UNDERSTAND that QUALITY doesn't come immediately. But quality mods will come if the incentive is there.

I will not defend the questionable practices of the current modders you feel are just cheating consumers with their broken product and you as a consumer have every right to demand the quality you think you deserve for what you paid. These are bad apples and it is truly your right to throw shit at them.


The market always correct itself based on popularity or demand. If a mod sucks, it won't sell for a penny. If the mod is great but buggy, it will be deemed expensive for its state. If a mod is a typical rip off, it will be called out and boycotted.


Kendo

Kendo's example is flawed because he uses the current practice of borrowed assets and share resources. The future is original content where modders come up with their own stuff or pay the commercial right to use others.

25/75 split is based on Valve's current practice. It may change for different games based on dev decision. The quota for withdrawal important aspect of accountability. If people can withdraw any amount, they can 'cabut lari' anytime. This will separate the men and boys in modding community. The long term vs the short term.

While 75% may seem greedy, its up to the modding team to determine if its worth their effort to sell their mods for 25% cut. You may feel 25% out of 4 bucks is not a lot. But if it sells 100k worth of mods a month, it is a lot. Now check the most downloaded free mod for Skyrim. Now just estimate only 5% actually paid for the mod. How much is 25%?

The so called Steam bucks scam. Valve is not a bank. They don't pay interest. It's essentially a pre-paid card. And modders gets paid in cash as far as I last read.


bjornk

Paying more doesn't equals quality. That is true especially in a scam.

But high pay attracts the best quality and retains it.

How do you attract technical talent into your industry? By promising gratitude and fandom? Or cold hard currency?











hyperyouth_firepower
post Apr 28 2015, 05:32 PM

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QUOTE(Skidd Chung @ Apr 28 2015, 06:02 PM)
I read it and I agree some parts of it.

But your conclusions of 'QUALITY' is based on work of amateurs putting their mods for sale. The system is not even a week old. I strictly mentioned quality MODs will come to Skyrim if the incentive is there. QUALITY will come from the new modders going for the incentive. Older mods such as you mentioned that was put in the market are just that, old MODs. No one is getting a dime from sales yet. No one quit their day jobs yet. The system is still in its infancy.

How these modders think they can get away by just charging money for broken products gets called out. Community driven reviews such as the criticism of current mods for sale is extremely important if the market were to stay competitive. Modders know they will be called out if they charge for a broken product. They won't make sale if their reviews are shit. This is where modders know they can only charge for quality.

The 'INCREASE IN QUALITY' is incremental and time consuming. It may take a week or month or year, where the actual modders have more free time as they get independent as the funds come in.  Once they quit their day job, its full time modding to keep their products relevant. This is if the modders decides to dedicate full time.

Please UNDERSTAND that QUALITY doesn't come immediately. But quality mods will come if the incentive is there.

I will not defend the questionable practices of the current modders you feel are just cheating consumers with their broken product and you as a consumer have every right to demand the quality you think you deserve for what you paid. These are bad apples and it is truly your right to throw shit at them.
The market always correct itself based on popularity or demand. If a mod sucks, it won't sell for a penny. If the mod is great but buggy, it will be deemed expensive for its state. If a mod is a typical rip off, it will be called out and boycotted.
Kendo

Kendo's example is flawed because he uses the current practice of borrowed assets and share resources. The future is original content where modders come up with their own stuff or pay the commercial right to use others.

25/75 split is based on Valve's current practice. It may change for different games based on dev decision. The quota for withdrawal important aspect of accountability. If people can withdraw any amount, they can 'cabut lari' anytime. This will separate the men and boys in modding community. The long term vs the short term.

While 75% may seem greedy, its up to the modding team to determine if its worth their effort to sell their mods for 25% cut. You may feel 25% out of 4 bucks is not a lot. But if it sells 100k worth of mods a month, it is a lot. Now check the most downloaded free mod for Skyrim. Now just estimate only 5% actually paid for the mod. How much is 25%?

The so called Steam bucks scam. Valve is not a bank. They don't pay interest. It's essentially a pre-paid card. And modders gets paid in cash as far as I last read.
bjornk

Paying more doesn't equals quality. That is true especially in a scam.

But high pay attracts the best quality and retains it.

How do you attract technical talent into your industry? By promising gratitude and fandom? Or cold hard currency?
*
sorry, but using the 3 days example, there was NOTHING of HIGH quality that even popped up, even the joke mods or the protest mods.


Please share any PAID ones that were REALLY good?

You keep dismissing these people as amateurs.


Please lah, if pros were that good, BETHESDA would not have released a game so buggy. Heck, 20 million sales and after so many years, they still can't even bother to fix the game.

Let's just assume, at the lowest regional price, that's RM22.50 (That's less than USD 10), they would have earnt at least nearing a minimum of USD 200 million. Yet no fixes.

Oh, that's some "HIGH quality" alright. If a triple AAA company like Bethesda couldn't do it, you expect the modders will step up to the plate, on paid?

Sorry. Clearly the OVERJUSTIFICATION EFFECT isn't bringing in the "AAA" grade mods or bug fixes YET


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect


You know quality doesn't come immediately, it sounds very much like Proton. Sorry. I don't have that patience, and money must be well justified. I wouldn't purchase a crap if its crap.


The long term effect is that it destroys the entire modding scene. People won't cooperate. They'll force to compete. Let's just put Chesko again into the equation. See what happens when he had to compete?


Let's put Maddox the guy who made SKYUI, and one of the unofficial patches. His so called "quality" in competition (barring none, actually) is just an upgrade of 2 codes. ROFLMAO

Yeah right competition breeds quality. Apparently in the history of the 3 day "paid mod fiasco", that didn't happen. So please don't call kendo and bjornk's ideas as "flawed", when in reality NOTHING serves to concretely prove your idealism that bringing in capitalism into the modding scene makes it flourish. I mean, can you really point out even a decent example in SKYRIM?



you know one of the highest priced mod was an apple on counter charged for USD 99.99, right? That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HIGH QUALITY. Yeah.

This post has been edited by hyperyouth_firepower: Apr 28 2015, 05:33 PM
Skidd Chung
post Apr 28 2015, 06:06 PM

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QUOTE(hyperyouth_firepower @ Apr 28 2015, 05:32 PM)
sorry, but using the 3 days example, there was NOTHING of HIGH quality that even popped up, even the joke mods or the protest mods.
Please share any PAID ones that were REALLY good?

You keep dismissing these people as amateurs.
Please lah, if pros were that good, BETHESDA would not have released a game so buggy. Heck, 20 million sales and after so many years, they still can't even bother to fix the game.

Let's just assume, at the lowest regional price, that's RM22.50 (That's less than USD 10), they would have earnt at least nearing  a minimum of USD 200 million. Yet no fixes.

Oh, that's some "HIGH quality" alright. If a triple AAA company like Bethesda couldn't do it, you expect the modders will step up to the plate, on paid?

Sorry. Clearly the OVERJUSTIFICATION EFFECT isn't bringing in the "AAA" grade mods or bug fixes YET
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect
You know quality doesn't come immediately, it sounds very much like Proton. Sorry. I don't have that patience, and money must be well justified. I wouldn't purchase a crap if its crap.
The long term effect is that it destroys the entire modding scene. People won't cooperate. They'll force to compete. Let's just put Chesko again into the equation. See what happens when he had to compete?
Let's put Maddox the guy who made SKYUI, and one of the unofficial patches. His so called "quality" in competition (barring none, actually) is just an upgrade of 2 codes. ROFLMAO

Yeah right competition breeds quality. Apparently in the history of the 3 day "paid mod fiasco", that didn't happen. So please don't call kendo and bjornk's ideas as "flawed", when in reality NOTHING serves to concretely prove your idealism that bringing in capitalism into the modding scene makes it flourish. I mean, can you really point out even a decent example in SKYRIM?
you know one of the highest priced mod was an apple on counter charged for USD 99.99, right? That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HIGH QUALITY. Yeah.
*
I think you completely missed my point of incentive attracts quality.

You again and again quoted current free mods that is being put on a NEW untested market for 3 days as your benchmark of the lack of QUALITY and how my opinion of "incentive attracts quality" is wrong.

I do not know of any mods that is of high quality that was being put up for sale for the 3 days the market was up. Maybe if given a chance the esteemed Falksarr might be put up for a dollar if the market stayed open, would that be a good deal? Think about that.

Would you consider Falksarr a quality product that deserve a dollar purchase price on the workshop market? Will you pay 2 dollars for it? How about 10 dollars? Is that too much? Ultimately the market will decide how good a mod can sell on its own merit.

If the market was up for a month or a year, could more polished products be produced and sold? We won't know I guess. We won't know if the incentive worked because the market is abolished.

I specifically say these people are amateurs because that is what they are. Amateurs are people who work without being paid or considered a professional in their field. They do it as a hobby or as a side project in their free time. They are not paid for their time or talent to do it.

Market forces will decide how successful a mod is. A popular mod will sell well. A broken mod will not sell. It's a simple concept. You as the consumer decide if its worth your dollars.


As your "Apple on a counter for 99 bucks" example. I know you are being sarcastic and rhetorical, but I would say if the consumers wants fruits in his game. He might shop around for other mods that add fruits. It is up to him and the mod is entirely optional. If there is a mod for apples for 10 cents and another for 99 bucks, which will sell? The market will decide.

I don't know why you think competition will stump creativity, if anything it will breed creativity.

The reason why SKYUI has no other mod competing with it is because there is no incentive to do so.

If there are 10 different UI mods for sale and one is more highly rated than SKYUI, would you still be 'ransomed' into buying SKYUI? Incentives will breed competition, ambition and creativity to earn money.
Skidd Chung
post Apr 28 2015, 06:17 PM

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QUOTE(hfi @ Apr 28 2015, 02:47 PM)
If Beth were to take these mods and put it through some proper QA process to deem their worth and comb through any potential problems then sure perhaps these mods are worth a price and everyone involved can be satisfied and get on gaming happily.

A lot of these mods were never stable at launch and it being free meant a lot of people could easily download them and help beta test these mods. This is part of the backlash from the Skyrim community as a lot of these mods resulted from collaboration of not just modders but also users who help tested these mods. A lot of users tend to create patches whenever modders themselves took too long to fix things. This is what Beth and Valve should have offered if they were to implement a paid system. Mods should be officially supported by both modders and developers. As it stood, it was everything modders, Beth and Valve to gain but paying customers to lose. If the mods were broken it was up to modders to fix them without having any obligation to fix it. It was more or less ask them nicely to fix it. It was a shitty deal all around.

They really need to think this one through. Because gameplay altering mods are not as clear cut as cosmetic mods.
*
That is true. A lot of mods are still being actively developed. Personally I prefer if 'in development' mods stay out of the market and only complete/finished v1.0 ones make it in. Development mods should be free for testing.

I don't expect Bethesda or any company to personally work directly with modders unless it is extremely popular to a point it is what majority of their player base wants. Due mainly to preferential treatment accusations. However, if Bethesda is serious about growing its mod community since its a profitable venture, it should begin supporting its main client as much as possible to be easy to mod and also fix legacy problems. However for now, there isn't reason to increase support for a modding scene so reluctant to change.



hyperyouth_firepower
post Apr 28 2015, 06:27 PM

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QUOTE(Skidd Chung @ Apr 28 2015, 07:06 PM)
I think you completely missed my point of incentive attracts quality.

You again and again quoted current free mods that is being put on a NEW untested market for 3 days as your benchmark of the lack of QUALITY and how my opinion of "incentive attracts quality" is wrong.

I do not know of any mods that is of high quality that was being put up for sale for the 3 days the market was up. Maybe if given a chance the esteemed Falksarr might be put up for a dollar if the market stayed open, would that be a good deal? Think about that.

Would you consider Falksarr a quality product that deserve a dollar purchase price on the workshop market? Will you pay 2 dollars for it? How about 10 dollars? Is that too much? Ultimately the market will decide how good a mod can sell on its own merit.

If the market was up for a month or a year, could more polished products be produced and sold? We won't know I guess. We won't know if the incentive worked because the market is abolished.

I specifically say these people are amateurs because that is what they are. Amateurs are people who work without being paid or considered a professional in their field. They do it as a hobby or as a side project in their free time. They are not paid for their time or talent to do it.

Market forces will decide how successful a mod is. A popular mod will sell well. A broken mod will not sell. It's a simple concept. You as the consumer decide if its worth your dollars.
As your "Apple on a counter for 99 bucks" example. I know you are being sarcastic and rhetorical, but I would say if the consumers wants fruits in his game. He might shop around for other mods that add fruits. It is up to him and the mod is entirely optional. If there is a mod for apples for 10 cents and another for 99 bucks, which will sell? The market will decide.

I don't know why you think competition will stump creativity, if anything it will breed creativity.

The reason why SKYUI has no other mod competing with it is because there is no incentive to do so.

If there are 10 different UI mods for sale and one is more highly rated than SKYUI, would you still be 'ransomed' into buying SKYUI? Incentives will breed competition, ambition and creativity to earn money.
*
sorry, the only reason why anyone would even try to outdo SKYUI, was that somebody would prefer a free version over a paid version, not because SKYUI was that damn good (not to mention SKYUI development was already DEAD before suddenly necroed for the paywall)

You asked what the market decides, and yet you ironically forgot that the market wants a selective pay. Not to VALVE, not to BETHESDA, only straight to the modders, and that's not even the majority. The market has responded and the answer is clear, the economy forces wants to have the modding scene (at least for skyrim, until the modding scene fights in another front) that the modding scene in skyrim is to be left alone, F. O. C unless people want to donate to the modders.


Please, you're already ignoring the obvious facts

1) there are so many high price mods that are subpar quality
2) when demanded to fix it, the quality went down the drain. Some even stopped development (again, Chesko and his fiasco)
3) You keep saying potential, i'm stating the facts backed up by the history of 3 days. The market has answered, and I believe firmly this is the correct answer: selective monetary compensation on freewill, and mods must be a labour not of money. For love, probably, but NEVER A LABOUR OF MONEY.

Your claims of it will breed creativity, as far as I can say what happened in these 3 days, is pure utter garbage nonsense. Heck, go back to Chesko again. Did Valve and Bethesda do anything to protect him? NONE. So much for signing off his assets, which he can NEVER RECLAIM.


You talk about improving the system.


Let me repeat, by posting this picture.
user posted image

Are you trying to deny this happened?

What is this? Is this an improvement? We just went back nearly to the archaic age of gaming, were it not for us protesting, it would have been FAR WORSE. You talk about improvements will come. But has the improvements arrived? NO.

Clearly if I would make a graph of progress, wait, the whole system REGRESSED from day 1 itself!


so how can you insist on harping that FORCE PAYING FOR MODS will bring BETTER quality when history itself has shown, laid right bare, that nothing as you said has even materialized?

Yet you have even the audacity to call the modders as "amateurs". Where is this professionalism improvement you keep harping? I demand to know where is it? Because there are NONE! NEIL! ZERO!

Skidd Chung
post Apr 28 2015, 06:59 PM

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QUOTE(hyperyouth_firepower @ Apr 28 2015, 06:27 PM)
sorry, the only reason why anyone would even try to outdo SKYUI, was that somebody would prefer a free version over a paid version, not because SKYUI was that damn good (not to mention SKYUI development was already DEAD before suddenly necroed for the paywall)

You asked what the market decides, and yet you ironically forgot that the market wants a selective pay. Not to VALVE, not to BETHESDA, only straight to the modders, and that's not even the majority. The market has responded and the answer is clear, the economy forces wants to have the modding scene (at least for skyrim, until the modding scene fights in another front) that the modding scene in skyrim is to be left alone, F. O. C unless people want to donate to the modders.
Please, you're already ignoring the obvious facts

1) there are so many high price mods that are subpar quality
2) when demanded to fix it, the quality went down the drain. Some even stopped development (again, Chesko and his fiasco)
3) You keep saying potential, i'm stating the facts backed up by the history of 3 days. The market has answered, and I believe firmly this is the correct answer: selective monetary compensation on freewill, and mods must be a labour not of money. For love, probably, but NEVER A LABOUR OF MONEY.

Your claims of it will breed creativity, as far as I can say what happened in these 3 days, is pure utter garbage nonsense. Heck, go back to Chesko again. Did Valve and Bethesda do anything to protect him? NONE. So much for signing off his assets, which he can NEVER RECLAIM.
You talk about improving the system.
Let me repeat, by posting this picture.
user posted image

Are you trying to deny this happened?

What is this? Is this an improvement? We just went back nearly to the archaic age of gaming, were it not for us protesting, it would have been FAR WORSE. You talk about improvements will come. But has the improvements arrived? NO.

Clearly if I would make a graph of progress, wait, the whole system REGRESSED from day 1 itself!
so how can you insist on harping that FORCE PAYING FOR MODS will bring BETTER quality when history itself has shown, laid right bare, that nothing as you said has even materialized?

Yet you have even the audacity to call the modders as "amateurs". Where is this professionalism improvement you keep harping? I demand to know where is it? Because there are NONE! NEIL! ZERO!
*
3 days is not enough to make a new mod. The market had no time to expand and attract. There is no data or market transactions to observe, no one knows if the market is big enough to venture into.

Potential is when the market stays up and let people start making new mods to be sold. New complete, original mods that is not piggy bagging on someone else assets.

Market forces has not decided on the potential mods the market can attract.

If you were a professional songwriter, that can make great epic music for Skyrim or any medieval game, you wouldn't mind working for tracks that would potentially be paid for. If you were a professional 3D artist, expert in robot modelling, you won't bother spending your time a resources freelancing if a mod doesn't pay. If you were a professional voice actor, you could make a sound pack but why should you if it doesn't pay. You don't need passion for Skyrim or any game to be able to contribute, you just need the talent and incentive to do so.

For a songwriter of epic tracks, she can record original songs as mod packs for different games. That is where professionalism comes in. Because being paid for it is the incentive to create and produce.

A 3D modeler might rather spend his time doing side line jobs for other companies instead of being attracted to the incentive the mod market might provide. He might make a realistic robot mod pack for games.

All these are potential professional mods that can come in if the market is open.


3 days is just not enough and you shouldn't use it as a 'fact' that incentive does not attract talent.

I never denied the shenanigans of Valve, from its banning of users to censorship.

This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 28 2015, 07:01 PM
hyperyouth_firepower
post Apr 28 2015, 08:18 PM

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Joined: Apr 2005
From: Sabah, Malaysia.


QUOTE(Skidd Chung @ Apr 28 2015, 07:59 PM)
3 days is not enough to make a new mod. The market had no time to expand and attract. There is no data or market transactions to observe, no one knows if the market is big enough to venture into.

Potential is when the market stays up and let people start making new mods to be sold. New complete, original mods that is not piggy bagging on someone else assets.

Market forces has not decided on the potential mods the market can attract.

If you were a professional songwriter, that can make great epic music for Skyrim or any medieval game, you wouldn't mind working for tracks that would potentially be paid for. If you were a professional 3D artist, expert in robot modelling, you won't bother spending your time a resources freelancing if a mod doesn't pay. If you were a professional voice actor, you could make a sound pack but why should you if it doesn't pay. You don't need passion for Skyrim or any game to be able to contribute, you just need the talent and incentive to do so.

For a songwriter of epic tracks, she can record original songs as mod packs for different games. That is where professionalism comes in. Because being paid for it is the incentive to create and produce.

A 3D modeler might rather spend his time doing side line jobs for other companies instead of being attracted to the incentive the mod market might provide. He might make a realistic robot mod pack for games.

All these are potential professional mods that can come in if the market is open.
3 days is just not enough and you shouldn't use it as a 'fact' that incentive does not attract talent.

I never denied the shenanigans of Valve, from its banning of users to censorship.
*
3 days is not enough to make a mod?
Apparently many of the USD 99 mods are made in less than 1 day.

The market has no time to expand and attract?
Sorry, the workshop wasn't launched 3 days ago. It has been there for A LONG TIME. Even during its pre-paid era, the quality is so much worse compared to Nexus. Its so obvious as to why.


There is no data or market transactions to observe, no one knows if the market is big enough to venture into.
Apparently Valve already examined the market, before making a statement that they don't know what they were doing. You can head to the announcement page, and read for it yourself.

Potential is when the market stays up and let people start making new mods to be soldApparently despite all the potentials

a) stolen items were sold
b) subpar quality mods were sold (again, look at the quality check post)
c) somehow contradicts your statement that 3 days is not enough.


New complete, original mods that is not piggy bagging on someone else assets.
sorry, care to explain how this works? Because right now in Skyrim, I can think of NO METHODS as of such. Please elaborate, because you made the statement, the onus is on you to prove such a thing can be done. I'm already thinking of Chesko's "fishing mods". Sorry, not to say fully independent mods don't exist, but I fail to see how Chesko in paid version would even find ways to make a brand new FNIS, a brand new SKSE into his mod without breaking other mods. Again, the ball is on your feet.

Market forces has not decided on the potential mods the market can attract.
"Lord GabeN" disagrees. He even posted in reddit "earning 10k, but losing 1m is stupid business". He said that, not me. The market has spoken. You make 10k, but lose 1million. How can you justify that as a GOOD business move, please explain.


You don't need passion for Skyrim or any game to be able to contribute, you just need the talent and incentive to do so.
And then, what happens? People pirate, copy, steal your work, post it as a free, and you can do NOTHING. Did Steam did anything to protect their modders? NO. Did Bethesda did anything? No. They censor, censor, censor and plug their ears and scream "la la la la la" while the shitstorm raged. How would that even contribute to modders even making mods, as of matter of fact, there were modders on Nexus that hid their files out of GENUINE FEAR that their mods would have been stolen, and that fear is not unfounded when there were NUMEROUS stolen mods and again, Valve-Bethesda DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Please tell me how is this an incentive?

I never denied the shenanigans of Valve, from its banning of users to censorship.
Pretty ironic statement given the poor examples (or lack of thereof) to even justify how users and modders even benefit.
Skidd Chung
post Apr 28 2015, 09:44 PM

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3 days is not enough to make a mod?
Apparently many of the USD 99 mods are made in less than 1 day.

Yet, is it even possible people are so stupid to pay 99 bucks. I meant quality mods aren't made in 3 days.

The market has no time to expand and attract?
Sorry, the workshop wasn't launched 3 days ago. It has been there for A LONG TIME. Even during its pre-paid era, the quality is so much worse compared to Nexus. Its so obvious as to why.

Market was only there for 3-4 days. Workshop is just a collection of mods. What is lacking is the data or market to look into to see if it was worth the effort to make new mods for the market to be sold. Is the audience ready to pay so and so for this etc. There is no data to analyse if the mod market is a feasible scene to invest in.

There is no data or market transactions to observe, no one knows if the market is big enough to venture into.
Apparently Valve already examined the market, before making a statement that they don't know what they were doing. You can head to the announcement page, and read for it yourself.

They had the data for CS:GO and DOTA2. It is a major success. They pitched the idea to Bethesda to see if they are interested in the idea. Their data is solid. Community content creation sparked an entire industry of professional modders that put their creation up for scrutiny to be accepted in game as an item to be traded. The modders made a living on these creations and their share is 25%.

Potential is when the market stays up and let people start making new mods to be sold

Apparently despite all the potentials

a) stolen items were sold
b) subpar quality mods were sold (again, look at the quality check post)
c) somehow contradicts your statement that 3 days is not enough.


Again the problem of implementation rather than concept. Implementations I agree was haphazard and too little was done to police it at least in an official sense. A green light pre-listing would be better. It certainly can be improved to ensue the markets success.


New complete, original mods that is not piggy bagging on someone else assets.
sorry, care to explain how this works? Because right now in Skyrim, I can think of NO METHODS as of such. Please elaborate, because you made the statement, the onus is on you to prove such a thing can be done. I'm already thinking of Chesko's "fishing mods". Sorry, not to say fully independent mods don't exist, but I fail to see how Chesko in paid version would even find ways to make a brand new FNIS, a brand new SKSE into his mod without breaking other mods. Again, the ball is on your feet.

I did put some examples of original songs, new voice overs. When I said not piggy bagging, it means instead of using SKYUI creators unofficial patch, they make their own patch integrated with the mod. They don't borrow assets that belongs to other mods.

Market forces has not decided on the potential mods the market can attract.
"Lord GabeN" disagrees. He even posted in reddit "earning 10k, but losing 1m is stupid business". He said that, not me. The market has spoken. You make 10k, but lose 1million. How can you justify that as a GOOD business move, please explain.

That is not market forces, that is just a PR disaster. Gabe said in 3 days, 10k in transactions happen. But it was disproportionate to the amount of complains he receives that is increasing the traffic in his company email system. The 1 million is not actual figures, just a figure to compare the difference.

You don't need passion for Skyrim or any game to be able to contribute, you just need the talent and incentive to do so. [/colory
[COLOR=red]And then, what happens? People pirate, copy, steal your work, post it as a free, and you can do NOTHING. Did Steam did anything to protect their modders? NO. Did Bethesda did anything? No. They censor, censor, censor and plug their ears and scream "la la la la la" while the shitstorm raged. How would that even contribute to modders even making mods, as of matter of fact, there were modders on Nexus that hid their files out of GENUINE FEAR that their mods would have been stolen, and that fear is not unfounded when there were NUMEROUS stolen mods and again, Valve-Bethesda DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Please tell me how is this an incentive?


You are absolutely right on this point. Since there is no proper response on how this can be managed, a lot of talents would be discouraged to put their work up for sale if it can be pirated. More DRM perhaps? Hopefully not but definitely something has to be done to prevent this.

I never denied the shenanigans of Valve, from its banning of users to censorship.
Pretty ironic statement given the poor examples (or lack of thereof) to even justify how users and modders even benefit.

How is it ironic statement? I never defended Valve for the treatment of its customers or the bad policy of 7 day market bans.

I am for a market driven mod where the incentives of providing paid content would entice future professional talent to invest and make quality mods for the users.

Modders get paid for their work.
Users get a bigger selection of mods to their liking.
Paid incentive will attract higher talents to invest into mods.

If you want quality mods and support, you have to be ready to pay for it. The market will show how much the audience is ready to pay for it when more mods hit the market. As the market grows, so does the user base and the modders themselves.

More mods, more users, more content.
hyperyouth_firepower
post Apr 28 2015, 10:36 PM

BlackBerry enthusiast
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Joined: Apr 2005
From: Sabah, Malaysia.


QUOTE(Skidd Chung @ Apr 28 2015, 10:44 PM)
3 days is not enough to make a mod?
Apparently many of the USD 99 mods are made in less than 1 day.

Yet, is it even possible people are so stupid to pay 99 bucks. I meant quality mods aren't made in 3 days.

The market has no time to expand and attract?
Sorry, the workshop wasn't launched 3 days ago. It has been there for A LONG TIME. Even during its pre-paid era, the quality is so much worse compared to Nexus. Its so obvious as to why.

Market was only there for 3-4 days. Workshop is just a collection of mods. What is lacking is the data or market to look into to see if it was worth the effort to make new mods for the market to be sold. Is the audience ready to pay so and so for this etc. There is no data to analyse if the mod market is a feasible scene to invest in.

There is no data or market transactions to observe, no one knows if the market is big enough to venture into.
Apparently Valve already examined the market, before making a statement that they don't know what they were doing.  You can head to the announcement page, and read for it yourself.

They had the data for  CS:GO and DOTA2. It is a major success. They pitched the idea to Bethesda to see if they are interested in the idea. Their data is solid. Community content creation sparked an entire industry of professional modders that put their creation up for scrutiny to be accepted in game as an item to be traded. The modders made a living on these creations and their share is 25%.

Potential is when the market stays up and let people start making new mods to be sold

Apparently despite all the potentials

a) stolen items were sold
b) subpar quality mods were sold (again, look at the quality check post)
c) somehow contradicts your statement that 3 days is not enough.


Again the problem of implementation rather than concept. Implementations I agree was haphazard and too little was done to police it at least in an official sense. A green light pre-listing would be better. It certainly can be improved to ensue the markets success.
New complete, original mods that is not piggy bagging on someone else assets.
sorry, care to explain how this works? Because right now in Skyrim, I can think of NO METHODS as of such. Please elaborate, because you made the statement, the onus is on you to prove such a thing can be done. I'm already thinking of Chesko's "fishing mods". Sorry, not to say fully independent mods don't exist, but I fail to see how Chesko in paid version would even find ways to make a brand new FNIS, a brand new SKSE into his mod without breaking other mods. Again, the ball is on your feet.

I did put some examples of original songs, new voice overs. When I said not piggy bagging, it means instead of using SKYUI creators unofficial patch, they make their own patch integrated with the mod. They don't borrow assets that belongs to other mods.

Market forces has not decided on the potential mods the market can attract.
"Lord GabeN" disagrees. He even posted in reddit "earning 10k, but losing 1m is stupid business". He said that, not me.  The market has spoken. You make 10k, but lose 1million. How can you justify that as a GOOD business move, please explain.

That is not market forces, that is just a PR disaster. Gabe said in 3 days, 10k in transactions happen. But it was disproportionate to the amount of complains he receives that is increasing the traffic in his company email system. The 1 million is not actual figures, just a figure to compare the difference.

You don't need passion for Skyrim or any game to be able to contribute, you just need the talent and incentive to do so. [/colory
[COLOR=red]And then, what happens? People pirate, copy, steal your work, post it as a free, and you can do NOTHING. Did Steam did anything to protect their modders? NO. Did Bethesda did anything? No. They censor, censor, censor and plug their ears and scream "la la la la la" while the shitstorm raged. How would that even contribute to modders even making mods, as of matter of fact, there were modders on Nexus that hid their files out of GENUINE FEAR that their mods would have been stolen, and that fear is not unfounded when there were NUMEROUS stolen mods and again, Valve-Bethesda DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Please tell me how is this an incentive?


You are absolutely right on this point. Since there is no proper response on how this can be managed, a lot of talents would be discouraged to put their work up for sale if it can be pirated. More DRM perhaps? Hopefully not but definitely something has to be done to prevent this.

I never denied the shenanigans of Valve, from its banning of users to censorship.
Pretty ironic statement given the poor examples (or lack of thereof) to even justify how users and modders even benefit.

How is it ironic statement? I never defended Valve for the treatment of its customers or the bad policy of 7 day market bans.

I am for a market driven mod where the incentives of providing paid content would entice future professional talent to invest and make quality mods for the users.

Modders get paid for their work.
Users get a bigger selection of mods to their liking.
Paid incentive will attract higher talents to invest into mods.

If you want quality mods and support, you have to be ready to pay for it. The market will show how much the audience is ready to pay for it when more mods hit the market. As the market grows, so does the user base and the modders themselves.

More mods, more users, more content.
*
sorry, i can never agree that paid mods = more mods.

Yet, is it even possible people are so stupid to pay 99 bucks. I meant quality mods aren't made in 3 days.
Exactly, so how can you guarantee that mods that takes more than 3 days to make are quality mods? Mind you, the mods that are posted up in the paid market, there were those that were necroed right after inactive development. They were given a month's time in notice (as very clearly evident in Chesko's letter). So one month equates to 2 code change in SKYUI, which then proceeded to get behind a paywall that's USD 1.00. That's USD0.50 per code updated, with no additional functionality on top of the still some things broken in SKYUI. That's expensive, and does not bring quality. So where's the quality?

They had the data for CS:GO and DOTA2. It is a major success. They pitched the idea to Bethesda to see if they are interested in the idea. Their data is solid. Community content creation sparked an entire industry of professional modders that put their creation up for scrutiny to be accepted in game as an item to be traded. The modders made a living on these creations and their share is 25%.
and yet you said they had no data. So what are you basing your arguments on?


Again the problem of implementation rather than concept. Implementations I agree was haphazard and too little was done to police it at least in an official sense. A green light pre-listing would be better. It certainly can be improved to ensue the markets success.
Even if its green-lighted like the greenlight alpha access scam on Steam, there is no guarantee that the mods are of high quality. In the 7 days grace period, nobody can actually even access the files, and despite things were stolen, it was only viewable after the 7 days assuming you purchased. They screwed up on the implementation, they screwed up on the concept. One game's success does NOT dictate as a success for another game, in this case Skyrim.



I did put some examples of original songs, new voice overs. When I said not piggy bagging, it means instead of using SKYUI creators unofficial patch, they make their own patch integrated with the mod. They don't borrow assets that belongs to other mods.
Sorry, did you know that when you sign up for Steam Workshop upload, you're basically signing off everything to Valve and Bethesda, right?

That means, you cannot claim copyright, you cannot claim ownership. With nothing, how can you say those assets are yours when you've signed over EVERYTHING. that's right, repeat after me, EVERYTHING. That's in their TOS.

That is not market forces, that is just a PR disaster. Gabe said in 3 days, 10k in transactions happen. But it was disproportionate to the amount of complains he receives that is increasing the traffic in his company email system. The 1 million is not actual figures, just a figure to compare the difference.
I still see it exactly as market forces, because the market reacted so strongly that Valve lost MORE money trying to patch up the shitstorm over the cash they earnt, and quickly realised that they aren't earning anything. Therefore the market HAS SPOKEN NO PAID MODS, ON ANY GROUND, EVER!


You are absolutely right on this point. Since there is no proper response on how this can be managed, a lot of talents would be discouraged to put their work up for sale if it can be pirated. More DRM perhaps? Hopefully not but definitely something has to be done to prevent this.
Of course this is a fact. So it just proves that PAID MODS = FAIL, and should not be implemented in any way. It is a capitalistic MYTH. THIS IS NOT THE WAY FORWARD.


Users get a bigger selection of mods to their liking.
Paid incentive will attract higher talents to invest into mods.

You see, yet again you're stating one thing, and then the other which doesn't correlate. With the 3 day example of so much theft, people actually closed up their mods, not willing to sell, let alone share. The amount of mods actually SHRANK. HIGH QUALITY ONES. So how can you say that users get bigger selection of mods, when original mod authors are already closing, forcing users to pay for BROKEN SHITTY MODS which are WAY OVERPRICED? What "selection" is there? NO SELECTION, NO CHOICES. This point has been talked so much the dead horse is already beaten so many times. IT just doesn't work and will NEVER advance the modding scene.



If you want quality mods and support, you have to be ready to pay for it. The market will show how much the audience is ready to pay for it when more mods hit the market. As the market grows, so does the user base and the modders themselves.

More mods, more users, more content.

apparently we didn't even have to pay, so why create something to pay just to satisfy the minority few? Let alone, the fact that we managed to kill off a cancer in Skyrim, that is PAID MODDING.



If your PAID modding is just limited to arts and songs, i'm sorry, that's just too limited of a mod. Look at games like Sleeping dogs. Their only mod is just a re-skin, even when people tried to pay, all they get is a low quality re-skin. Is that even worth paying? I don't think so. Are the skins in MOBA like LoL, HoTs, worth paying? questionable but I still don't think so that it would advance the modding scene at all. In the case of DoTA, the only thing it has accelerated is making Valve richer at the expense of the users.

in fact that you said the people who bought the USD99 apple are stupid, I would say the same for those who bought the skins in DoTA. But what makes the point that paid modding is not the way to go, is that in the case of Skyrim, anyone can make a CRAPPY skin (its quite easy apparently) and yet nothing can be done to halt these subpar quality items. NOTHING.

So how can Paid modding be good? THe answer is obvious: IT NEVER DOES.
light bulb
post Apr 29 2015, 03:03 PM

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From: Serdang
I'm for one glad this is over. I've reversed the negative review on Steam too. Somehow I feel like they'll try it again someday but probably on a new game, FO4? TES6? who knows
malakus
post Apr 29 2015, 03:37 PM

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QUOTE(light bulb @ Apr 29 2015, 03:03 PM)
I'm for one glad this is over. I've reversed the negative review on Steam too. Somehow I feel like they'll try it again someday but probably on a new game, FO4? TES6? who knows
*
nah, Bethesda won't have enough funds to create a new game since the paid mods got cancelled unsure.gif nah, jk

--

It's over for now, but meh. Might as well post it here


light bulb
post Apr 29 2015, 04:45 PM

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Joined: Apr 2007
From: Serdang
QUOTE(malakus @ Apr 29 2015, 03:37 PM)
nah, Bethesda won't have enough funds to create a new game since the paid mods got cancelled  unsure.gif  nah, jk

--

It's over for now, but meh. Might as well post it here

*
Wouldn't have expected that coming from him at all. A lot more reasonable compared to TB.
Anyway here's a good read, an interview with the owner of Nexus site, Robin http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/04/28...s-on-paid-mods/

This post has been edited by light bulb: Apr 29 2015, 04:45 PM
Skidd Chung
post Apr 29 2015, 11:03 PM

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Yet, is it even possible people are so stupid to pay 99 bucks. I meant quality mods aren't made in 3 days.
Exactly, so how can you guarantee that mods that takes more than 3 days to make are quality mods? Mind you, the mods that are posted up in the paid market, there were those that were necroed right after inactive development. They were given a month's time in notice (as very clearly evident in Chesko's letter). So one month equates to 2 code change in SKYUI, which then proceeded to get behind a paywall that's USD 1.00. That's USD0.50 per code updated, with no additional functionality on top of the still some things broken in SKYUI. That's expensive, and does not bring quality. So where's the quality?

Again you harp on old mods. I'm not defending the actions of SKYUI or Chesko at all. If SKYUI modder had the intention of upgrading the 5.0 version past the 2 lines of code, maybe he would in time or he just wanted to cash grab. Either way it does not equate 'paid mods = bad quality'. There just ins't enough time for the market to mature to bring in the newer mods we might see.

They had the data for CS:GO and DOTA2. It is a major success. They pitched the idea to Bethesda to see if they are interested in the idea. Their data is solid. Community content creation sparked an entire industry of professional modders that put their creation up for scrutiny to be accepted in game as an item to be traded. The modders made a living on these creations and their share is 25%.
and yet you said they had no data. So what are you basing your arguments on?

I'm sorry you seem to misunderstand me. I meant there is no data for paid mods in Skyrim. The market did not mature since it was aborted in its infancy.

TF2, DOTA2 and CS:GO had these community made skins, hats, items, etc. that was sold and traded. The industry started to attract talents to contribute to gain market share. Definitely there are more skins and items from before. Previously it was Valve who did the skins before approaching the community to contribute and vote for the ones they want in. However when they open the contributions to the community, it was an unexpected success.

There are professional teams who make 6 figures sums just by designing these items. These are the talents that makes it a their business to design the best items/skins etc. for the game and the users to enjoy using them.

The paid mod market for Skyrim is the first to experiment to see if there is a feasible market for indie mods. Unfortunately, bad implementation and community rejection killed the idea.

Again the problem of implementation rather than concept. Implementations I agree was haphazard and too little was done to police it at least in an official sense. A green light pre-listing would be better. It certainly can be improved to ensue the markets success.
Even if its green-lighted like the greenlight alpha access scam on Steam, there is no guarantee that the mods are of high quality. In the 7 days grace period, nobody can actually even access the files, and despite things were stolen, it was only viewable after the 7 days assuming you purchased. They screwed up on the implementation, they screwed up on the concept. One game's success does NOT dictate as a success for another game, in this case Skyrim.

Yes, you have a point regarding different communities might react differently. Possible due to Skyrim nature of mods that seem to run into hundreds of little different mods rather than in a one packed form. I was thinking perhaps it can be bundled but then it each mod belongs to different modder, it might complicate compensation.

Without proper curation of mods, it might take time to see problems that might occur perhaps 100 hours in game. Especially for Skyrim's case of long play time.

I did put some examples of original songs, new voice overs. When I said not piggy bagging, it means instead of using SKYUI creators unofficial patch, they make their own patch integrated with the mod. They don't borrow assets that belongs to other mods.
Sorry, did you know that when you sign up for Steam Workshop upload, you're basically signing off everything to Valve and Bethesda, right?

That means, you cannot claim copyright, you cannot claim ownership. With nothing, how can you say those assets are yours when you've signed over EVERYTHING. that's right, repeat after me, EVERYTHING. That's in their TOS.


As far as I know, anything you create with Skyrim's modding tool also belongs to Bethesda. Which is why, selling it before is not possible without getting possible lawyer letter from Bethesda if they deemed it profiting from the IP.

IF it was a market and it's your mod, it would be prudent to protect the integrity of the market that stolen/plagiarism can be combated officially instead of only community.

That is not market forces, that is just a PR disaster. Gabe said in 3 days, 10k in transactions happen. But it was disproportionate to the amount of complains he receives that is increasing the traffic in his company email system. The 1 million is not actual figures, just a figure to compare the difference.
I still see it exactly as market forces, because the market reacted so strongly that Valve lost MORE money trying to patch up the shitstorm over the cash they earnt, and quickly realised that they aren't earning anything. Therefore the market HAS SPOKEN NO PAID MODS, ON ANY GROUND, EVER!

No it is not market forces of what you described.

If you grow bananas to feed your village for free, everyone who eats it is happy. It is not much and just small bananas but it's the only banana the village know of. <This is the mod community>

But if you try to sell the bananas in the market to other people from town, your village is unhappy because they can't get all the bananas for free. <This is not market force. >

But the bananas is selling very well in the market and there is a healthy demand for more bananas. <This is market force.>

This demand for more bananas make you want to keep your bananas fresh and free from mold so you can sell it. <Incentive to keep quality.>

The demand also make other banana growers happy, because they can sell theirs too. <Incentive for others to mod.>

This great market for bananas have attracted Fruit Co. to setup a plantation of high quality bananas for sale in the market as well. <This is professional talent/modders.>

In time, the market is full of every type of banana known. The village though now have to pay for their bananas is delighted to taste better bananas than before. Also they can choose cheaper or more expensive bananas. <market maturity>

You are absolutely right on this point. Since there is no proper response on how this can be managed, a lot of talents would be discouraged to put their work up for sale if it can be pirated. More DRM perhaps? Hopefully not but definitely something has to be done to prevent this.
Of course this is a fact. So it just proves that PAID MODS = FAIL, and should not be implemented in any way. It is a capitalistic MYTH. THIS IS NOT THE WAY FORWARD.

Well not in current phase of implementation. They know now it won't work the way they thought it would. More solutions and steps needs to be taken to be able to support a market properly to ensure fair and transparent business.

Users get a bigger selection of mods to their liking.
Paid incentive will attract higher talents to invest into mods.

You see, yet again you're stating one thing, and then the other which doesn't correlate. With the 3 day example of so much theft, people actually closed up their mods, not willing to sell, let alone share. The amount of mods actually SHRANK. HIGH QUALITY ONES. So how can you say that users get bigger selection of mods, when original mod authors are already closing, forcing users to pay for BROKEN SHITTY MODS which are WAY OVERPRICED? What "selection" is there? NO SELECTION, NO CHOICES. This point has been talked so much the dead horse is already beaten so many times. IT just doesn't work and will NEVER advance the modding scene.

Again 3 days is not enough for this market to mature.

No one is forcing anyone to pay anything. Mods are again optional. You feel entitled to free mods, which is why you feel you are being forced to pay for it. Broken shitty mods are putting a gun on your head to buy their mods? So please, cut the drama.

I hate to bring up the app store of Apple and Android, but that is what the mod market can be like. Free shitty apps or paid premium apps. Again not all are perfect, some are more expensive than others. Some are out right scams. But it is a market maturing to a point it is able to filter the bad from the good. And the amount of apps, the diversity of it is so numerous you didn't even know it can exists as an app. Professionals and amateurs make apps to be sold in the market. The market is big enough to attract talent into the app making business.

The app store is just a thought of how a mod market can mature to.


If you want quality mods and support, you have to be ready to pay for it. The market will show how much the audience is ready to pay for it when more mods hit the market. As the market grows, so does the user base and the modders themselves.

More mods, more users, more content.

apparently we didn't even have to pay, so why create something to pay just to satisfy the minority few? Let alone, the fact that we managed to kill off a cancer in Skyrim, that is PAID MODDING.
If your PAID modding is just limited to arts and songs, i'm sorry, that's just too limited of a mod. Look at games like Sleeping dogs. Their only mod is just a re-skin, even when people tried to pay, all they get is a low quality re-skin. Is that even worth paying? I don't think so. Are the skins in MOBA like LoL, HoTs, worth paying? questionable but I still don't think so that it would advance the modding scene at all. In the case of DoTA, the only thing it has accelerated is making Valve richer at the expense of the users.


Your view is of the current mods available in Skyrim. My view is of the possible mods that don't yet exists for Skyrim. I believe an incentive based mod market can create enough interest for more creative, innovative and expansive mods to be made.

in fact that you said the people who bought the USD99 apple are stupid, I would say the same for those who bought the skins in DoTA. But what makes the point that paid modding is not the way to go, is that in the case of Skyrim, anyone can make a CRAPPY skin (its quite easy apparently) and yet nothing can be done to halt these subpar quality items. NOTHING.

Anyone who falls for obvious scams are stupid. A fool and his money will soon be parted.

Nothing can stop sub par quality and yet nothing will force people to buy these sub par quality either. I don't see an issue here unless it is a scam such as false advertising.

So how can Paid modding be good? THe answer is obvious: IT NEVER DOES.

The answer is, we will never know for Skyrim.

Hopefully other game community in the future will be more welcoming. Perhaps a newer game where the mod community is not so entrenched. Perhaps then it can be seen by others what an incentive based mod community will be like. Will it be better or worse?

This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 29 2015, 11:11 PM

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