hmmm.. that is more like a secondary purpose.. not the real or primary purpose.. imagine if you want to be medium for say monkey king.. what do you think the medium should be like? a monk? or normal folk who wore like taichi master clothes? it would be normal to mimic the monkey king as much as possible.. the hat with two long "tail" thingy and at the min his long staff.. if not how would the monkey king know that is the "medium" for him? so.. "recognisable" medium is one.. second is these "gods" sometimes have their own "special" stuffs/weapons that they carry or is linked to.. it might be a source they "draw" their ability from.. like the guy above mention.. the 9 yin warriors.. or the abacus which that particular deity carry and use most and perform his duty with.. just putting it in logic ways.. if they need it in their time and "realm" to perform their duty.. if they "cross" here... its natural they need it to do their "stuff" right? i think thats what the guy trying to explain...

lets put this into current world perspective.. if you were to cosplay... say kirito in sword art online.. what do the cosplayer need? imagine the cosplayer is the medium.. well.. thats roughly the same idea... the cosplayer needs to be a guy since kirito is a guy (of coz there are crossdresser but hey.. we are talking about the respect and norm here).. he needs his two swords (items kirito used in the anime) and a black attire.. as close as possible to the anime right? only then you know he is cosplaying as kirito.. in the ritual aspect.. the medium plays a bit different role.. instead of "acting" like the person cosplayer wanna mimic.. the medium is trying to "invite" the spirit/god to enter into him.. so he needs to look as "close" to the deity as "humanly" possible... of coz if the spirit is monkey king you dont expect the guy to be hairy like a monkey or what.. just as humanly possible.. they are good "spirit/deity/god".. they will forgive the shortcomings and they aint gonna punish you that bad if you dont look exactly like them... just do their best to look like them will do... and unlike the cosplayer where they try to "act" like the anime character.. medium invites the spirit to perform duty the spirit's "power/ability/duty" whatever the ritual is about.. so they need their "stuff/weapon/whatever they need"... get it? and since the mutilation/weapons/method is the spirits own "stuff" it wont affect/harm the medium as he is protected by such spirit/god/enlightened beings.. i think thats the main reason behind it.. of coz.. the "show" power part as i said is more like the "side effects" of such act where ppl goes... "wah.... kena poke till like pin cushion still ok... wah... bleed the tongue and bla bla bla still no problem..".. as i say.. those stuff they do wont harm the medium since they are protected by the spirit/deity/god and those items or stuff is theirs in the first place.... so.. dont lar say they show off not good you know

This post has been edited by Wolves: Jan 7 2015, 11:27 AM

sorry.. no cosplay and no sintua or chinese folk involvement... i am what they call a scholar or study geek.. i study anything and everything and i do come across the topic of "religion" and did some "study" in it.. and yes.. the closer the "resemblence" the smoother the "transition"... i think some ppl on the second page mention why no xtians or other religion who "experience" or why certain ppl are "selected" being the medium... and i remember you also mention your sifu is chosen coz previous life he not very good or something and as punishment... he was chosen... erm... i would like to challenge that notion/thinking... base on what i have read... actually... its a bit long as it involves a few theories... =.="

hmmmm... after second thought.. i think i might explain.. for those who dont like to read.. stop here.. for those who wish to know why.. read on.. its very long... first the thought of reincarnation.. this of coz comes from buddism point of view.. this world is called samsara.. the world of suffering... one of the 4 noble truth.. i spare you the details.. in this world.. life is suffering.. to get out of this world of suffering.. you must get out of the wheel of rebirth.. the wheel of rebirth has 6 path... human is one of the "better" path but it still world of suffering... when you get out of the wheel of suffering... you are what they called enlightened beings.. arahats is the lowest of the enlightened beings... ji gong.. the monk who travel and have powers and so call drinks and stuff.. he is an arahat... in chinese pin yin its called luo han.... lady guan yin is bodhisatvas... the highest few of the enlightened beings.. these enlightened beings.. which some refer as god or spirit or what... is "closer" to the inhabitants of the world of samsara since they just escaped the wheel of rebirth.. hence.. can easily "connect" with us and "influence" us.. and help us.. you seldom see stories where "buddha sakyamuni" was involved in our world.. the ones you hear is before his passing to the other side and claim the title "buddha"... bodhisatvas as well when they "cross over" they will be buddha.. its a phase... and di zhang pu sha... its actually translated as earth store bodhisatvas.. actually he is as "enlightened" as buddha... at his time.. two of them were able to attain the title buddha but he did not cross as he symphatized humans and see them suffering in the realms of hungry ghost and hell.. hence.. instead of "crossing" over to the other world.. he went down the realm of hell and decided to help the beings there to get enlightened and reduce suffering and help them overcome their bad karma... and he vowed he will not cross over until there is no longer any beings that is still in this world (as oppose to what you say about nobody left in hell.. ).. ie.. he will he the last to cross over.. ok.. background story set..now.. how do you determine where is your rebirth.. there is 6 path.. it all depends on your karma... 3 "better" realms.. 3 "worse" realms... and if you were to go "human realms".. how your birth is determined? lots of ppl ask.. why my life like that... why my habit like that... why i always face this problem... this is the answer the those qs.... and they are because........... next paragraph... another long story..

karma.. everything one does.. it accumulates karma.. be it good.. bad.. or neutral.. and where you ended up will depends on what karma you have accumulated.. karma is 3 types... i spare details on that.. thats another big topic.. if you have good karma.. and you are to be rebirth as human.. you will be rebirth into a good family... but if you have bad karma.. and chosen to go to human realms.. but on poor conditions.. if you are a buddist in previous life.. chances are you will have a better intellectual/smart... thats what i heard.. coz you study a lot and you broke a lot of obstacles so when you are rebirth.. you are born with less "obstacles" in life and you can seek out knowledge a lot easier.. whatever you do.. you create these karmic knots.. if you bully a begger... in the next life you will meet this begger but instead of him.. you would be the begger begging him... if you treat your wife badly.. next life you might be the wife bla bla bla... karma... what goes around comes around.. and humans are suffering because of these karma as well.. thats why they say ppl who have unfinished karmic knots will have to stay in the realms of rebirth until they untie all of them.. and gained enuf good karma to be out of the wheel of rebirth... ok.. i think i go a bit lengthy de.. anyway... there is no right or wrong path.. right or wrong deities.. or religion... every religion could lead you to the path of enlightenment.. but how you know which one is for you.. easy.. the one you are the most at ease with.. the enlightened beings.. all of them are compassion and will come to help every living soul.. how connected you are to any of them... depends on your accumulated karma... or what you have done before.. maybe TS was a ghost general for the deity before.. hence in this life... he is "connected" to the hell beings.. who knows.. or maybe TS was a fren with one of the generals down there.. and that general talk abt him and decided to help him.. we dunno.. one thing we know is.. we are more drawn to one or a few of such good spirits.. and they will try to come and help us.. to point us the way.. not to worship them i mind you.. they are just helping... and they can see past into our past lives.. some ppl can see their past life.. a lot of example of these... and see what they had done.. you can go to any temple and check if there is a person where whom can do it.. some rely on a book... and mind you.. that book is written over 1000 years ago and its still useable even until today.. that book can tell you past lives.. the most direct one.. and what you have done.. what you are blessed with this life coz of it.. and what you owe in the previous life... and you need to pay back and how.. anyway.. this also tells us why certain ppl are good with certain stuff.. i have heard a 5 years old kid who had never learned piano and can instantly play the highest grade piano and he just remember it off his head... and some ppl are "talented" or more drawn to something... these.. are all karma.. another good and living example.. the dalai lama... the current one was reincarnation of the previous one and the previous one and previous one... now he is 14th reincarnation.. he chose to be reincarnated coz he has a "duty" to fulfil before he cross over.. and hence he kept reincarnated and ppl "can find him"... he left signs that its him for the ppl to "find" and know its him..

ok... its getting a bit long winded.. i have heard base on the rebirth and karma and "what you bring over from past life" theory... due to the previous "path/religion" taken... it could also means that last life if he was a strong christian.. this life he technically will be "drawn" to christians... and so on and so forth... and since he is a "strong" christian follower.. it only makes sense he will do as what his "deity" tells him to... and if we bring this example to our brother here... it also means that his guru.. in previous life was a loyal and strong follower of sintua religion.. and he was particularly "holy" or very very devoted... hence this life.. he is "easily connect" and resume from his previous life.. this is proven by babies or kids who are sensitive.. those who had opened their sixth sense/third eye/second vision as TS put it in his religion (same thing.. diffferent sect refers them differently).. in their previous life when they see.. they also had opened them... thats why when borned in this world... the eyes are not really "shut" as they had utilize them in past life and its too strong.. that is why they say do not "close" it if possible and if you do close it.. his fate in this life will have a drastic change.. since there must be a reason or things he need to do this life thats why he "forcefully" try to kept it open... i dunno.. it could be by accident wuahahah.. anyway.. some ppl can "feel" at young age.. can "see" at young age... or half vision as one guy put it.. i believe they are all connected to what they did in previous life.. one more thing... in the karma explaination.. its a long topic but bear with me... there is a mentioning that you will be reborned into a place where most of the ppl you meet.. even your father and mother and siblings were ppl you had connections with previous life.. your father.. mother.. siblings.. sons.. grandsons... friends.. wife... gf bf... ex gf and ex bfs.... they are here in this world with two purpose.. one.. to "pay" back your good doings in previous life.. or to make you "pay back" what you owe them in previous life.. have you notice there are some ppl you wanna hate but cannot hate? you wanna avoid but cannot avoid? some ppl are nice to you but no reason and some gals are attach to evil ppl and do whatever they wish? well.. thats the explanation to it... anyway.. i better stop de

This post has been edited by Wolves: Jan 7 2015, 05:24 PM

anyway.. base on the last paragraph above.. i believe your guru/sifu was a very holy and devoted sintua practitioner in his previous life.. it can be seen by how he do stuff.. i am sure he is kind and helpful and very compassionate towards others.. and base on the theory i said.. these were brought forward from previous life.. and to be able to be "chosen".... in previous life.. he must be one hella holy fella that even the deity so like him and hence can easily "go into his body" and so on and so forth.. and he acquired blessings and protection from the deity... hence.. i think you should "study" more on that... i believe its a blessings and not a punishment... thats my two cents..

This post has been edited by Wolves: Jan 7 2015, 05:38 PM

hmmm.. you and nachtsider said the same thing.. as the matter of fact.. since you two mention it.... that reminds me of the sifu i went to see last year june... from the way he talks.. he sounds like what you said.. he mention he have to send his wife and daughters away in some far away land and when i ask him (out of fun) saying if my career is the right path or not as i dont like what i am doing and i dont feel its my job... he did say "you think i choose this path? i also dont like what i do but the gods/spirits chose me... when they chose me.. there is no way i can run away from it.. i have to do what i was given the task to..".... so... i think you two are kinda right.. it dint strike me till now... but then again... i think back.. he did say he need to do "his" task as its what he "do best".. if he do any other things.. it will not be as successful as what he is doing now so i always thought that... due to his past karma... its his best "ability" and maybe in his past life.. he is already a very devoted and holy person to that "Deity" and hence the deity stick to him very strongly and to deter him from fallen further from enlightenment... they intercept? you know... out of compassion? hmmm.. my reasoning is they when they underwent the wheel of reincarnation.. they did "forget" and as the TS said... leave the past behind.. so they might not "remember" about that.. but as i say.. the deity does... and they wanted to help ppl cross over the other world and get enlightenment.. if you asked me.. they are good spirits right? so i am sure if the "person" is almost there... it makes more sense to "help/bug/nudge" him more towards the "right path".. whatever that path is due to his previous life or karma... isnt it? of coz i got no concrete evidence of it.. but if you look at "older" medium.. none of them actually regret the path... only the new or young ones does but you can say due to conditioning... if i were to make sense of it.. being a medium is hard work.. i agree.. and its not pleasant.. i agree.. but its the "fastest" good karma generator... you help ppl.. all sorts.. and you help the deity at the same time to do their work on earth.. yes you get tired and live shorter lives bla bla bla.. coz you are human... your body is human and you carry deity frequencies... i can understand that part.. and you "die" faster.. to me... i think compare to the good karma.. purifying karma and all those good stuff.. its "worth" it?... no? tell me.. if there is a better way than that to gain good karma so you can be enlightened? i dont think so..

on a second note... those "normal people" medium as you said... as i say.. they do "claim" that its not "easy/good"... i agree those i "met"/known.. like you two said.. they say same thing... but what if we look at monks... the guy i talking about.. base on what his "place" looks like and the statues.. i deduce he is tibetan style.. i did ask his "follower".. the one who bring me.. why he choose such a place.. she told me the "spirit" doesnt want to move and stubbornly stays there so he got no choice but to move to such "far away" and secluded location... he tried to move but the spirit just wont budge.. and i did ask whats his "way".. and to cut things short.. the explanation was of clairaudience... there are 5 types a medium can "interact"... i cut you the details... so this guy belongs to the hearing type.. anyway.. back to theory.. i also knew of some medium... like the ones in tibet.. i forgot which monastry but they will have a monk who posses certain connections to some of the deity... and if he pass... they will automatically be another one.. erm.... they call the deity the protector.. anyway.. he does the trance and let the possession thingy every year.. and from what i know.. he very happy due to the reasons i said.. and even kenchara house or something in kl and pg.. the rinpoche.. i dunno him.. i just see his video and stuff... he talk abt divinations before.. but the way he speaks its more like a blessings.. but its hard work just to "keep" communicating with it.. ie.. keeps the connection opens.. but all the "hard" work at the same time generates humongous good karma and so on and leads to "faster" enlightenments... i have read similar stories by ppl from different sects... and depends on the "holiness" of the person.. the "happy to do it" energy is different... i can say those like tibetan monks.. those normal monks.. some even muslim haji (not saying bad things ya.. i just telling base on what i heard/know/talk to).. some of them can actually "see" through you.. and even christians have some who "does" but of coz they wont tell you... and you need to "grill" it out of them these "holy" ppl thinks its a blessing to be "medium".. and as i say.. normal common folks.. if the older ones you ask them.. they feel same.. but as i say.. they might be "conditioned" to be such and they dont wanna create more bad karma by saying otherwise? i dunno.. so........... its an open debate i guess... but overall.. since i seen more "happy" ones from all different "sects" and only the chinese folks common ppl says the opposite.. i will gonna think its a good thing... and if what TS says abt the "compatibility" of deity to medium is right... then it also should falls in my way in saying the only medium whom the deity should be able to be "compatible" with.. is someone of such high karmic values and holiness and devotion... thats my arguement.. of coz i am just a "geek" who reads and thinks too much.. i not pro.. so i could be wrong...

i beg to differ on this as well.. "chance" is also karma's work if you look at it at the bigger picture.. as i say.. the topic of karma is quite huge.. and i told you there are 3 types of karma.. yes i agree fate is not written and could be change.. i use that arguement on divinations.. what are the purpose of divination.. ie.. divine intervention? its so your future can change.. if it cant change.. why bother ask for divination? of coz there are other things but thats a valid arguement for "fate cannot change"... therefore karma still important and chance/good luck/bad luck.. this is extention of karma.. should i explain...hmmm... its very long....... sigh.. anyway.. summary is 3 types karma.. and chance is an extention of it.. why certain ppl meet certain "fate" or chance... its coz of previous karma he needs to resolve.. he can resolve or not.. can escape or not... depends on his current available karma.. if he did good this life.. and accumulated certain amount.. even if he meets the accident which is due to previous karma.. either this life or previous life... he can still survive.. ie.. miracle bla bla bla.. btw.. miracle is also an extension of karma... thats why i say the karma topic is very huge.. lemme put your questioning mind into gear.. why in a bad situation.. lets say... 9-11 case.. why did some ppl "die".. some "escaped" unscratched.. and some with injury or disability.. and why "all those ppl" are there at the certain time certain place? coincidence? i dont think so.. and thats what set me off to find the answer.. and i found them in the topic of "karma"

i answered this above.. but importantly.. i still wish to highlight is that the way "they" see things.. i believe is very important.. and as i mention.. there is 5 types... some like your sifu might only have one.. and coz of how he "sees" his life... maybe thats why he only got one... i seen ppl with more than one.. erm.. usually the "more" type he possess.. the more holy in a way.. but you cant measure "holy" nor judge "how holy" a person is.. so.. i gonna say "enlightened" or compassionate here the more compassionate one person is... the more "spiritual ability" they possess... and the more happy they are to "help" us... hope you get the meaning.. and most of "these" highly "compassionate" ppl thinks its a blessing..

on another note.. i tend to differ on the "look" at your past life story.. i understand what has been done is done.. we cannot change it... but on the topic of karma... or "self" in this case.. another long story but i gonna use summary.. what are this "self" we are talking about.. if you believe in reincarnation... what is being incarnated... if you dwell into that.. then the reincarnated "thing"... or most ppl called "self"... how is this "self" like... do you understand this "self"? and the list goes on.. long story short... to understand this "self".. some back "travelling" is needed... see what this "self" has done.. what trouble or habit it had form.. whats the sorce of it and by knowing it.. you can "remove" the habit now and for future life.. improving one "self" for next life and eventually to the path of enlightenment... erm... if i need to go any deeper i believe its gonna be hours lecture de... so i stop here.. all in all.. i believe knowing your "past".. learning from your "past".. and of coz letting go of the "past" is the key to a better "future".. at least you could "shape" or "create" a better condition for the future... i am talking about multiple "life time" here... but in actual fact.. this can also be applied for one lifetime.. ie.. now... i think i will call it "self-improvements".. whatever you wanna call it... lets debate more

wuuuu... nice... makes my heart itchy wanna move and live there.. wuahahahahah... but then again.. it reminds me of something.. once i were dwelling into the topic of "how to know who is real medium"... and how to "identify" who is not real... what are the "limitations" to such "power/ability"... and WHO can do divination.. and WHY sometimes there are some "conflicting" divination... the answer is nice..

question 1: is it possible a medium can trance both side?
answer which i believe (of coz i not belong to their sect): *i actually typed a long page but after reading i decided i talked out of topic a lil so i re-write again*.. the answer is yes and no.. but simple answer.. No.. one person can be body for one deity... one person can only have affinity for one.. and with the characteristic and compatibility thingy to allow the diety to enter... it is a bit "specific" so usually only one for each person..

question 2: can a temple have more than one deity?
answer: yes.. you can have a few ppl inside who can perform such act.. and it can be from different "groups".. ie.. like your case.. heaven deities and hell deities.. it could also include others..

question 3: is your experience with ji gong funny? can that be real?
answer which i think: real or not... chances are that particular one is no.. a medium will not "reveal" himself to be real.. and much less announce or notify... they just do it when the time comes.. when it comes... yes.. you can "invite" them to perform certain things certain days... but there are limited "exceptions".. mostly are on the spot.. the drinking part? thats normal i guess.. if memory serves me right he do drink a lot.. and eat certain stuff he shouldnt be eating.. long story actually so i gonna spare you that part.. the method he used to "cheat"? erm.... in my memory he can really drink a lot lor.. if he really ji gong i doubt he needs any tricks like that.. so i still feel funny lor.. and to be "hostile" to non believer.. well.. if its really ji gong we are talking about.. he never bothered if you believe him or not.. he just enjoy what he does and he do plays tricks but not in that kinda hostile way.. as TS say.. i dont believe any true practitioner would mind if you believe it or not.. they do to serve and to make others life easier/happier.. it doesnt matter believer or not.. although some act requires constant "doing" of certain things and therefore require some faith.. but you arent even asking them to do something for you.. so it shouldnt affect you or your presence affect them.. so there is definitely some funny stuff going on.. but hey.. i just a nerd.. what i know right?

wow... nice info.. thanks.. and i am sorry.. looks like i am wrong again.. i thought one medium one deity only.. hmmmmmm.... looks like i still dunno a lot of things.. good to know and learn that.. then does that mean "any deity" also can posses the medium? erm.. what is the "criteria" for the deity if there is any to enable them to posses?

Come, Let me shed some wisdom on this topic for you. As i had mentioned before, i am not sin tua people. I am more of what they called a person with too much time to find out things to learn. This toad has sparked my curiosity a few year ago as i am moving into the business field. I actually owned one facing my cashier. For its origin and legend, I will use the wikipedia and the link is as follow:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Chan

The toad is called chan chu. However, there are other names for it as well. As for its summary, It is not a sin tua religion but more of a feng shui part. Chan Chu was originally a human, a wife of the 8 immortals in the chinese god mythlogy. This 8 immortals were mentioned in sintua religion as well. Anyway, due to women's "sin", the women is turned into a toad and a few centuries later, the toad was seen with liu hai, a chinese alchemist (or doctor if you wish to call him that way). Liu Hai learned the secret of immortality from this chan chu and it is fabled that he had been using chan chu to "travel" instantly (as in teleport) all over the place. On a side note that the wikipedia did not mention is that chan chu has a large thirst for water and therefore always escapes and run away to drink water and liu hai will use a string of "gold coins" just to lure it back. This has been shown by today's statue of chan chu whichs always have a string of gold coins around its mouth.

Now we go back to the relevence of chan chu to feng shui. it is a symbol for wealth and prosperity in feng shui. It is used to fetch wealth as well as to protect them as seen on its statue by standing over "treasures". It also has the ability to dispel bad lucks. On the reason why your grandfather has such a device and the timing of the toad facing which direction, you have to know chan chu's characteristic.

There are some do(s) and dont(s) for chan chu. as said on the wikipedia, it should not face the doors. The rational behind this is that chan chu appears once in a "blue moon" (ie seldom/rare) and if it appears, it will bring wealth and luck. So if you put them facing the doors, it will "run away" with your wealth and luck. Hence, "do not let it escape" analogy. The exception this is if you put it facing your garden with no doors in sight. A lot of people place this toad facing their garden with a small pond with no gates or door at sight. As mention above, chan chu has a large thirst for water and likes to stay around water sources. It is said that chan chu works best if you let it "roam" around but do not let it escape. Therefore, the third thing to remember is you should let it roam around and therefore it should be placed close to the floor. If you place it too high, the toad might be afraid to hop down and therefore might not have any effect. Place it close to floor so it can hop down and roam around to find money and then bring back to the "house".

By that, it should explains that your grandfather's house has that kind of device. During the day, the device face outside into the garden to let it go out and roam around to find money/wealth and by the evening, the toad's direction is changed so the toad will come back with the day's finding and let it stay in the house while protecting the wealth. This is also shown by having the toad standing on heaps of treasure and with the coins in its mouth.

Another few ways to use it is like what i do. I put it on the floor hidden from plain sight and facing the counter not very far away. But all those are more of fengshui than actual religion issue. I found out all these details a few years back and these are what i still remember of it.

Edited for Joey Christensen benefit to read. I hope you will not scold me again. thousand apologies.

This post has been edited by Wolves: Feb 7 2015, 11:40 AM

i think i need to step in here before you two start to quarrel hmmm... nachtsider means no harm and maybe did not elaborate enuf for you to understand... let me try to shine a torch or two here... all these "myths" beings... or so called "deities".. or "god" by some.. they were all once a human and accomplised great feats or virtues.. that the "higher beings" deitified them.. and gave them relevant "jobs" to what their are capable of when they are mortal.. and these mortals has touched ppl of the world when they are still alive.. think of it as a hero to common ppl.. so out of respect they sort of "pay respect" or if you want to called it.. idolize or worship.. the point is not all "idolised" humans get deitified.. these are rare exceptions and they had "shown" in their own way they still influence the earth..

anyway.. all these good mortals that has been "Deitified" are of good virtue.. they show devotion and stuff.. by "worshipping" them.. it reminds us that we should be "good"... i think that is the biggest point of it.. you dont see ppl "worship" "deities" that ask you to kill around do you? or act as prostitute? or do bad stuff? no right? thats the point of it.. and what they are actually doing.. well.. as far as i can see is "pay respect" to these beings.. just like we would to an elderly ppl like grandparents? we visit them.. feed them.. feast with them.. accompany them.. talk to them... and so on and so forth.. and when in trouble we find them.. ask for help.. they try within their means... bla bla bla... to me... its just that.. OF COZ sin tua religion got MORE stuff like parade and stuff... but lets put it this way.. the deities are not "young" plus they are "deities".. they deserve MORE RESPECT and have been doing their JOB for the benefits of humans? so i think those are more or less justified for them since they been doing a lot of stuff for a very very very very very long time and ... as i say.. just as a sign of showing respect to them? and each of them have some slight differences.. like everybodies grandparents have some slight differences? well.. thats all i think lar.. dunno if you can accept this explanation...

This post has been edited by Wolves: Feb 6 2015, 05:14 PM

sorry, i wish to make some correction. First you mention buddism and the indian prince is "Siddhārtha Gautama, or AKA Buddha". I would like to correct the buddha part. It should be AKA Buddha Shakyamuni. There is more than one buddha and he is one of them. Secondly I agree with most part of your explaination except the last few paragraphs.

As I mentioned, people who actually contributed to humanity and touches the heart of the "Angels/God/Spirits" whatever you call them will be deitified. And another attributes you should not forget is these "people" will influences the earth as in they will return and continue to "help" the people of this world. a lot of people get idolized and "pay respect" to. But it doesnt mean all of them is deitified. I hope you get what i mean. and through constant "returning" to the world and helping the people in this earth, their influences does not perished like the other idolised but not deitified people. and as time after time has tested its "existence" of such deitified spirits, it evolves into the so called sintua religion. and i do not believe the last sentence at all. but that is my understanding and i could still be wrong.


my apologies, i will tried my best here to do as you said master. please forgive me. old habits die hard you know

This post has been edited by Wolves: Feb 7 2015, 11:10 AM

Joey Christensen. I have edited the post about the chan chu for your ease of reading. I apoligise again for its raw and unrefined formed. I will not edit the rest though as I think its too hard for me plus I doubt people will go back to re-read all of it

why all of you started a very interesting point without me I hope i am still in time to join. My take on the issue "to kill or not to kill". First I quote a monk from Australia, Perth when asked on issues of karma and if certain things happen is good or bad. His answer is, "Is this good? Is this bad? who knows?" and he proceeded with a story about a doctor and a king. I would spare you the lengthy story but the take home message is "who are we to know what is good and what is bad? what is right and what is wrong? what is retribution or punishment or reward? What might appear good in the beginning can turn bad in the end and what is bad in the beginning can turn good as well. We wont know. In life, nothing is guaranteed nor promised except for two things. You are borned and you will one day perished (die)".

On my favourite quote which i used all the time, I will say "do what you should. Do what you could. And the rest leave it to God/Karma/fate/luck (whatever you believe)". That is my take on most of the things that happens. On your scenario, I will say not to kill is the best choice (5 precepts of monks). But in the monk precepts, there are minor precepts as well and one of it says "if you are in the position to avoid evil but did not do so, then you are guilty of the same evil". This is said by Dalai Lama on one of his talks. In other words, if you see someone is about to commit a great sin and yet you stood by and did nothing, that sin that is about to be commited will effect on your karma and you will carry the sin as well. In other words, if you see a man who are about to denote a bomb to bomb a building of peoples and you have a gun/weapon on you but did not use it, you are the same as the person who denote the bomb. However, in that scenario if you take the gun and shot him down, you will bear the sin of killing but the karma of saving the countless life would prevail.

This is however different from hearing a guy who says he is going to hijack a plane and yet did nothing but you kill him on what he said. I use monk's precept as I believe most of your concerns are actually taken care of. For example, the guy who say he is going to hijack plane yet did not do anything is consider idle talk. In the monk's minor precepts there is a mention "do not engage in idle talk".

Even if someone tells you that X is terrorist, a monk will not do anything since to him, X is just a human and nothing more. there is no label nor past to consider. Monk looks at the person as what he sees right NOW. And i believe all religion do have similar "teachings" about this. See things as they are and do not bother about the past nor how one presents itself but as what the truth should be. Do not jump to conclusions and do not engage in idle talk. Do not gossips or believe gossips until you have facts and prove. Even ancient scholars like Socrates says so.

Anyway, I might have derail a bit but i am just telling you how i come to this conclusion. We should not harm any living beings unless that living beings, be it human or animal or any other living beings are IN THE ACT of killing/disastrous act and there is no other choice you could do to prevent that act but to kill that living being in order to save more lives. Of coz one can argue that there are "better" choices like running and get for help and so on but that itself is "efficiency" question. I believe we wont be penalized for being incompetent nor unefficiency but on "our hearts" when we commit it. And i believe that is what the sintua religion says when the go down to the "courts of hell" to answer the charges. And i believe this answers your "grey areas" of religion as well. All it matters is at that point of time, what is happening and why you do it.

*please dont kill me*

This post has been edited by Wolves: Feb 9 2015, 01:28 PM

*hijack the thread*
i think explain the differences would do much good rather than dismiss this notion. Sorry boss, I hijack your thread a bit and will settle in the fastest way possible.

Just curious if the "lady with snake-like" hand posture means the hand is snake form or raise the hand like a snake and the lady is sitting with the legs at the side position?

Thailand has rich history on their deities (buddism mostly since they are 99% buddist) and they are incorporated with their local culture. Buddism did not forbid integration with local culture as long as they do no harm. Before buddist arrive in thailand, thailand already has a rich history of dark and white magic, and they also have their own "heros" they worshipped like khun peng. Think of it like bomoh in malaysia and indonesia. These are already a local practice since ancient times. Even other places like africa has their own local version of these ancient arts. When buddism is spread to thailand, most of these bomoh/sifu/masters of these arts was touched and they discarded their "dark arts" and uses only their white art (the art of helping ppl) while incorporate the teachings of buddism into their practice and hence the birth of thailand amulets and "barang"/takruts/stuff. They are totally different from sintua and is more like a local adaption of their buddism practice. Understand?

This post has been edited by Wolves: Feb 14 2015, 11:15 AM

if you say the one with the hand posture like a snake and with sitting leg on her side, that is nang kwak. It is a local thai deity, the goddess of fortune. She was a businessman's daugther and brings great fortune to her father when she was borned and everywhere she goes, the business will bloom and hence the local "deitified" her as the goddess of fortune. As i mention, its not sintua. Its Thai's local adaptation. She is similar to the "fortune cat" from Japan. In Thailand, every business would put at least one in their shop just like in Japan, most shop would put one fortune cat at least on their cashier.

As mentioned earlier as well, Thai is 99% buddist and the spread was from india/tibet. Hindu was "older" than buddism and hence some do "share" similar character but different "description". Just like Kuan yin from China is the same as Avalokistewara from Tibet/India but in China, kuan yin is mainly a women but Avalokistewara is mainly shown as male and some is unisex. Its how the "locals" describe and the deities "manifestation" to them in "real form", dreams, their mediums or through any other means. During the olden times, there is no camera nor any way anybody can "record" what they seen/dream/felt. So, they are mainly described and deities has the ability to "change" their outlook, they do manifest in different forms. So each places might portrait different images and the language barrier is problem. Each uses their own mother tongue hence different names but refering to the same deity. So, the "Hindu" gods might appear in the buddism deities and even sintua but each "religion" has their own way of "pleasing" the same deity. Therefore, you should not mix them up.

Therefore, since your curiousity is answered and "we" already explained the differences, we should not hijack this thread and we should go back to sintua religion before the "landlord" kick me out of his apartment (this thread) and ban me...

This post has been edited by Wolves: Feb 16 2015, 01:02 PM

Actually I do not think it just "ends" as per se after you are strong enough or reach adulthood and the deity will continue to look after you. Its the same as having a dad and when you are younger you "seek" his attention and he pay more attention to you but as you grow up into adulthood you talk less and interact less (remember to treat your dad nicely). And as i say, you are linked with that deity and that deity will continue to look after you. Just that you grew stronger and doesnt really need to rely on them. I believe the "ties" will not be broken at all.

When a child is having some difficulties or problem, as the example given by nachtsider such as sickly, prone to being disturbed by evil spirits (usually manifest with signs like nightly crying, screaming, restlessness, easily startled and so on), normally the parents will be asked to seek the temple's help. The temple will see (depends on the temple, some might use date of birth and consult a special book, some can terus "see" and tell, some consult "sifu" or totem master or consult a medium and the list goes on) and they will then tell you which deity (or deities, it could be more than one) or what you need to do to help. It could be none deity. I seen a guy whom needs a "Datuk", as in a title Datuk and after find one whom willing to accept him as his godson, the kid's body automatically become better and the illness does not really come back. Anyway, most of these cases usually involves deity or deities.

Some might ask, if there is why is there more than one? and in this case, how to know which one to find? Depending on the "problem" the child faces, some of the problems can be solved by a number of deities. For example, if due to "past" life or some sort of karma, one child is prone to be disturbed by "spirits", a lot of deities can help. The child might also face problem that only one deity can handle (that particular deity's area of specialty). Anyway, if a lot of deity can help, then the "affinity" of the child will be taken into consideration and even with the date of birth, there still might exist a few deities to choose from.

So, in that case how to know which deity to "choose"? Easy, go to the temple of the said deity and see if you got "fate". A case which i personally knew. A child has 3 deities that was recommended to the parents. The first day, the parents decided to bring to one of the temple whom host one of the deity. At the time of departure, it rains quite hard and due to the body condition of the child, the parents decided to call it off. Second day they decided to try a second temple but the condition of the child suddenly got worse and they call it off. On the third day, they decided to visit the third temple and everything went smoothly. After that i was told that it actually mean that the first two is not the one the child should seek but the third one is. This one is from experience and how I knew about these stuff but there is no hard evidence and mostly from hearsay from people in this area. But I above two cases I know them personally and that was what i was told.

so.... nachtsider. Am i right?

This post has been edited by Wolves: May 5 2015, 09:18 PM

Sorry, I am a few days late and I have been missing for quite a while from here I just want to point out something here about "offering"/"Sacrifice". I am of course not talking in the sense of "sintua" religion but since "sintua" is a local adaptation from the buddism and places heavy focus on the dharma, therefore what the dharma says will have some significance. In buddism, NO FORMS OF OFFERING THAT REQUIRES TAKING ANOTHER LIFE IS ALLOWED! For whatever reason, for whomever it is, for whatever excuse nor logic there may be, NO KILLING is allowed. And that is how one person can differentiate if the "spirit" is good or evil. ANY GOOD spirit will NEVER ASK YOU TO KILL AS SACRIFICE TO THEM! and those who "does", they are EVIL spirits/deities to begin with. ALL SPIRITS have some limited abilites (most are limited but there are some powerful ones that have abilities without limits) depending on a few things. There are no exception to the NO KILLING AS SACRIFICE rule. Its just makes the person who does the killing accumulate bad karma and no GOOD spirits/deities/protectors will want that.

However, I have to point out another thing which is about "wine". As I say above, Sintua religion is a local "adaptation" of buddism. As BUDDIST, of coz wine is to be avoided but these are what called presepts and are with exception and so on (ie, erm... how to say so i dont sound bad... its like ponteng sekolah.. not good but if you did it... you wont be "expelled" terus and you can redeem yourself if you can give good excuses? forgivable "sin" depending on "why" you did it? hmmm... anyway.. dont do it if you can!). But as a MONK you MUST follow the precepts (200 plus of it.. not the normal 5 for layman only). And as the sintua religion, it seems they are "ok" with wine and depending on the "spirit"/"deity's" character, wine is a norm (not all as some are stricter on themself". So, you must really know the deity well. Not all are "ok" with wine.

Natch, am i right?

actually since i felt like you might not be aware of certain things, in buddism, trance, mediumship and oracles do exist as well (especially tibettan and even some thereveda sect). The biggest difference in the way of worship is the deitified "local" ppl and the "range" of deities/gods. The way of worshipping might differ slightly and i believe the difference is mainly due to the toaist influence. However, the basics are still the same. Buddism allows integration as long as it does not break the fundamentals. That includes "NO KILLING" and hence NO LIFE SACRIFICES.

However, that itself brings out a few confusions especially about "offerings" as seen by some ppl slaughtering pigs and roast pig as sacrifice. To be honest, the practice itself is generating more bad karma as oppose to good karma. Think about it. What will be the excuse when the person went "down" after pass away when the "pig" accuse the person for "murdered" it in front of the court? (talking in sintua explanation and system as example). That pig is sacrifice for bigger good? sacrifice to honor some "deity"? what if the pig ask why him? his karma? this can't be correct, right? What i believe happened is that the pork was to give their "ancestors" as its the behaviour of the "human" when they are still on earth (extrapolated to those heros and local good man) and being uneducated or limited education society (i mean their son and daughters), these practices were then assumed to be correct for deities and so on. Another possibility i can think of is some "rich" fella wanted to show off they can please the deity by making offering "normal" peasants cant to gain favour (whole roast pig was considered a very good luxury in the olden days) and it was then assumed to be "better" and people "try to follow" the rich person's way and it spread. This again might be due to the lower level of education lvl then. However, the same question applies and "bribing" the deity is in itself a wrong/bad intention. That is my own opinion though but i still believe that "life sacrifice" should never happen.

If we go to the root of everything about "offerings" the right way was to offer offerings that pleases the 5 senses, Ie, sight, touch, taste, smell and sound. I want to clarify that the sight can be anything pleasing to the eyes like colourful flags (flags of 5 colours mentioned in some sutra text) or scultpure of the deity or precious stones like pearls. the touch can be in the form of silk or nice things to touch (banners and flags). the TASTE is not "meat" offerings but refers to fruits and water to be exact where non bad karma will be generated and i think this is where the life offerings went wrong as well. The deity or gods do not really need to "eat" if we think about it. The smell can be candles (which pleases sight as well in a way) and the toaism joss stick in this case is acceptable (hence i say buddism allow integration as long as it does not harm others). the sound could be mantra, reciting sutras or any hum and nice music. of course this is my opinion lar but i believe if we stick to the basics, we will be a lot safer than to venture into giving offerings like wine, meat sacrifices and the sorts. i doubt the "god"/deity will scold us for giving such offerings.... errr... i guess? lol..

natchsider .. care to talk more? i want to emphasize these coz it just.. erm.... makes me feel not good when i see ppl "sacrificing" livestocks as offerings. Hence when i see the topic mentioned about offering i "talk too much" about it. But i am, like most ppl, curious about offerings one should prepare and it puzzles me why i see during Chinese New Year especially ppl actually ordered one whole pig with apple at the mouth and offer it up to the temples. I also wish to be clear on sintua's stand on these issues.

BTW, just to mention a fun fact and its debatable of cours. not all monks are vegetarian

This post has been edited by Wolves: Jul 3 2015, 01:31 PM

actually all "buddism" or "deity" have their own version in their own country. For example, Gautama Buddha, Bhaisajyaguru, Amitabha Buddha, they are the "most commonly" known buddha all over the world. However, each country has their own interpretation and their own way of worshipping but not very far off from each other. I take bhaisajyaguru for example. In Japan there is a dedicated temple called yakushi-ji. In Japan, bhaisajyaguru is called yakushi. In china, "yao shi fuo" (藥師佛）。 In thailand, Phra Kring. In tibet, bhaisajyaguru. I believe you might be talking of something similar.

However, please be aware that Japan is very "tradisional" and they do worship "natural" local deity like the 9 tail fox and so on. Its like the Japan verson of chinese folklore. Ie, it was a "local adaptation" of buddism plus taoism in their own culture sense and the buddha you mention might not really be a "buddha". The only one i can think of is the "brahman" or the 4-face buddha (Erawan) in the thailand version. I am sure you heard of the 4 face buddha in thailand where you make a wish/desire and when what you wished for came true, you need to give something back (what you promised when you make the wish) or whatever you seek will be gone and with some consequences? In japan I will not be surprised if such version (in their own local adaptaion) existed.

actually, i believe there is "the 3 wise man" in chinese folklore whom i believe that sounds like the brahman. And i think there is similar stuff where you make a wish in exchange for something you will give (exchange) when you get what you asked for. Isnt there one?

This post has been edited by Wolves: Jul 7 2015, 10:44 AM

Ah, then I can tell you what natch said is correct. It is not the "main stream" buddism. It sounds more like the local adaptation of japanese buddism/local deity/culture type. In Japan, besides the "main" buddhas, they have different sects or schools (like any country) as well that practices slightly different. I believe your friend had mess with the "bad" side of the practice. In thailand, there is one that is called kumanthong. Normally I do not wish to mention so ppl will not ask more of it. Its known as small ghost or little ghost in chinese. In japan, there is also a sect of schools/culture that "welcomes" it. It is called Zashiki-warashi. I am not sure if your "friend" is talking about these but its a small boy or girl version which you can "invite" by performing certain ceremony and it sorts of follow you around. It comes and goes as they like. But i can tell you that you are not talking about the same thing from the two different post as the first post you mention a buddha (a buddha dont do these wish thingy to be honest) and on the second post you mention it "sticks" to you. There are quite a number of yokai (spirits) that can stick to a person in Japan's cultural believes. It is definitely out of this scope in these thread and before you anger our local "guardian" of the page, mr Natch, I believe we should not discuss this topic further. I am very scared of mr Natch's holy "smite" since he is experts in needles, injections and diseccting human alive..............

sorry.. missing for a while...

Actually Mr natchsider, I am sure every type of "trance" only allows himself only to enter a trance where it involves certain deities and I don't think the Thais or Tibetan monks induced a "trance" involving deities in anyone else. If you are talking about certain medium doing some ceremony and allows certain deities to enter them (the medium) to perform certain task, all are the same. If you asking the difference, I would say Sin tua the difference is only the "person" suitable to be the medium. Sintua's medium is "chosen" base on certain criteria as Natch mentioned while in Thai and Tibetan, only monks with very strong meditative ability. I don't see much other differences otherwise IF you ask about difference in medium and trance.

However, I believe he was asking a different question which is during certain ceremony, devotees started acting weirdly and so on. And I think "all" also have similar stuff. Need to confirm if he indeed is asking the about the medium or ceremony stuff.

hmm.. that depends if there were any kid statue stuff lying around in that house and what type of things/faith the owner worshipped. I detected some sort of thai stuff again and as mr Natch said... "My, lots of people here certainly are interested in Thai stuff. ".. lol..

Visiting the temple is definitely gonna help clear some bad "air".. but its definitely only.. erm.. what they call it... "good to do but dont rely on it" sort of things.. its good to clear these bad air stuff out... worship as your faith goes.. and do what you can.. but most importantly.. work on it and find the cause and fix the root of problem is more important.. hope you get what i mean..

Natch... wah... ppl look for you to teach them how to increase luck and so on wor... i also want~~ lai lai.. gimme some "fa bao" or stuff to boost my life

hmmm.. partly true. Its just like the saying "praying to buddha equals to pray to all deities as all is one and one is all". However, even all deities are "same" as they goes back to one "root" or "begining/end/source" (whatever you wish to call it), and they are just different "manifestation" of "path of enlightenment/buddha" (depends on which angle you want to see), please be reminded that each person has affinity to "some" (or just one) deity.

hmm.. lets put it this way as a form of analogy and i am not really trying to degrade any deities ah. This example is only for illustration purposes. Say you have a company and you want to pass a message to the CEO of the company (assume he Jade Emperor). You can say "just pass him the memo" and its the same as passing it to everybody else in the management. Technically true right? The problem is, is it possible for anybody to just walk into the CEO office and says "nah.. this memo is for you.. read it when you are free".. Chances are the memo would be ignored BUT... some people can actually achieve that feat. Ie, that person have affinity to the CEO. Very very rare but there are such ppl. Most people cant reach that level but they might have affinity to different levels of management. Maybe Guy A have affinity to the Managing director whom he can seek to pass the memo to the CEO, Guy B might have affinity to the HR manager whom he can seek. Guy C might have affinity to the Department Manager and so on and so forth.

To cut the msg short as I talk too much de, these different "levels of management", ie, representing different deities at different "manifestations" to tackle certain values of our lives are important than we aim straight to the top. I am not saying that deities are below or above or less or more powerful and so on. They are equal and same as they are here to help us "remove/settle" our hindrances to enlightenment. To reach enlightenment we need to rid our human unpure qualities and base on your karma and previous actions, we will have certain defilement and different affinity towards certain deities. And since we are "closer" or have more affinity to certain deities, we can "communicate" with them "easier".. ie.. same wavelength if you wanna put it that way. That way we can remove the "hindrances" faster. This also applies to "communicating" with higher beings and getting our message/wishes (or whatever you wanna do) across to the higher realms easier through deities we can communicate with easier...

did i go into too much details? lol.. sorry =.=" but its important to understand than a bit here and there. Natch... i correct or not?

hmmm... not saying its good or bad but I do heard phra phrom being very very very "effective" but please do not forget what you promised or said you will do if what you wished for is being "granted".. how big or how small the assistance is when you pray to phra phrom.

This post has been edited by Wolves: Sep 28 2015, 04:11 PM