Greetings, Lowyat/Kopitiam goers.

I'm a lifelong Klang resident, and a long-time enthusiast/practitioner/student of Chinese folk religion and ritual activities (the 'sintua [神坛] scene', as some call it). I primarily associate with the Hell deities, such as Elder and Second Brother [大二爷伯, also known as the 黑白无常 or Black and White Ghosts], and Hell-related topics are where I am most knowledgeable; however, I do pray to several Heavenly gods, as well.

The sintua scene is so vibrant and widespread in Malaysia; I was thinking of starting a discussion thread about it here, so that fellow sintua buffs might be able to discuss this wonderful aspect of Chinese culture. A lot of misconceptions, ignorant beliefs, etc concerning the sintua scene have been going around; perhaps this thread can be used as an educational tool. I'm more than happy to answer questions, clarify facts and so on.

Pics related; the first is me at the temple I normally attend, and the second is me worshipping at home. Let's hear it from all the other sintua people here!

Geez. Pretty quiet in here; surely there MUST be people who adhere to Chinese folk religion on this forum? I did a search of the Kopitiam and saw plenty of threads on Datuk worship, the Hungry Ghost Festival and other related topics.

I'm not Chinese but I think this is pretty cool man.

Thanks, Seager - feel free to talk about the subject or ask any questions if you so please!

There are quite a number of non-Chinese adherents of Chinese folk religion, in actual fact. For example, here is an Indian medium who is channelling Second Brother (二爷伯).



Still waiting and hoping that some sintua people will come in here to participate. I wonder if I posted this topic in the correct section...

You mind explaining what's going on in the 2nd picture of yourself in the first post?

I'm praying - performing a ritual to invoke my gods, summoning them to partake of the offerings I will serve.

The costume is a symbol of my allegiance.

i guess not many dare to replies or have the knowledge to participate in ur thread since this is in serious /k, and the pics u posted means u are in serious business...
there is a thread about PJ ghost stories, why dont u go there take a look...

i have encounter spirit few years back in uni time which i hope dont want encounter again...always bring along my azimat with me....


btw, just now back from penang botanical garden jogging, while i was about to finish my jog, i walk the big round of the botanical garden...
at top, i saw one leave, yes, only one leave keep swinging and waiving up and down like there is someone or something holding it...
i tot it was wind...then i check surrounding, all other leaves/plants/flowers not moving like got wind blow...
only this one particular leaves keep moving...i guess its something waiving it...i just act duno and keep walking...

Not daring to reply? Aw, man. I don't bite, you know. And neither do the gods - unless you're a bad person, of course.

Maybe I should've created this thread in the regular /k section, lol. All the other threads on ghosts, gods and devils seem to be located over there.


I might swing by, thanks. I'm not a PJ resident, but enjoy listening to ghost stories of all kinds.

You and me both, haha. I've had several encounters myself, most of which were nothing serious. In fact, I can say that only ONE of my encounters was truly extreme/nasty, and it was this encounter, which took place during the Hungry Ghost Festival many, many years ago, that started me on my current religious path, because one the gods whom I pray to probably saved my life then.

Most ghostly beings are usually quite content to keep themselves to themselves. I believe we generally have more to fear from other humans than ghosts.

cause at there most just bullshiting...some are true...some are just entertaining....u will notice that as u read on more and more..

i'm not pj resident also...but hearing from them...it keeps getting more and more ridiculous...
same with me...i also kena at the same time...14th of hungry ghost festival..some more zhun2 12am sharp...
but for me, 心要正 then okay ady...this is what i keep mentioning in my heart back in botanical garden just now...
i keep saying, 一横，一竖，一横，一竖，一横...心要正....that walk by it...
some might say, u should go over there and check it out..but the timing also zhun2 during sunset time, when ghost starting to lurk around....i prefer let it be...

mana ada ghost tell stories about themselves?
those 占童 needless to say la...those...some are real and minority are real...

It's all about separating the wheat from the chaff, I guess. The more authentic ghost stories usually don't involve anything too outlandish.

Haha - what I said is that ghosts usually KEEP themselves to themselves, meaning that they usually mind their own business and leave humans alone.

It's not always easy to tell which mediums are real and which are fake, unfortunately. But there are a few pointers - real mediums do not charge fixed monetary fees, do not make any illegal demands (such as sexual favours) and do not perform any illegal services (such as placing curses on people).

And at the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. Fake mediums cannot produce any real results, the same way a fake doctor cannot heal sick people.

TS u worship hell deities. Is it for protection purpose? Are the ritual got any different's with other's heavenly deities?

Hello Tension, the Hell deities are the spiritual police force and justice system of Chinese folk religion. They deal with matters concerning death and the afterlife, are involved in the punishment of sinners, and are good at subduing evil spirits.

I worship them because they been very kind to me, protecting me from harm and guiding me throughout my life. My line of work involves regularly dealing with people who are either close to death or already dead - I used to work in a funeral home, and currently work as an emergency room doctor.

Hell-based chants and talismans are somewhat different from those associated with Heavenly deities. For instance, Hell talismans may contain dark or death-related images, such as skulls and bat's wings, and are often green in colour, instead of the usual yellow (see below).





Incense/joss sticks are normally offered to them in multiples of seven rather than the usual three. Seven is a number that is closely associated with the Hellish or Yin side - the moon, a Yin heavenly body, has seven phases; a newly departed soul can stay on earth for up to 49 days before leaving for the next world (49 is made up of seven sevens); and the Seventh Month is when the Hungry Ghost Festival takes place.

Also, Hell deities prefer 'rougher' offerings such as roasted meat, alcohol, opium and cigarettes (see below).

Thanks for sharing


"" You and me both, haha. I've had several encounters myself, most of which were nothing serious. In fact, I can say that only ONE of my encounters was truly extreme/nasty, and it was this encounter, which took place during the Hungry Ghost Festival many, many years ago, that started me on my current religious path, because one the gods whom I pray to probably saved my life then. "


Mind to share story above?? pm also can.. seem interesting

ts, those spirit have been nice to u cause u have been nice to them or how?
share ur story how u end up in this religious path..

from my understanding, u need to give something for them to protect u...

Hi Arthur/Tension, 'giving something for them to protect you' is behaviour usually associated with beings that are either neutral or evil in terms of alignment. The Hell deities are of a lawful good alignment, and will selflessly help the needy.

My story goes along these lines.

Ever since I was a small child, I was always interested in Chinese myths and folklore, especially classic Chinese ghost stories like those in the 聊斋志异. I would be very curious whenever I went to temples; I would often run off and explore on my own, plus try and find out whatever I could about the gods there. The interest was more academic than anything else, though. I didn't TRULY start believing until I was about eight years old.

It was the Seventh Month. Being my usual naughty self, I went out on a walk to a friend's place all by myself, at about eight-thirty p.m. or so. Didn't care about the old folks' warnings to stay in so the wandering spirits wouldn't get me; I was one of those kids who thought that bad things only happened to other people.

As I walked through the night-time neighbourhood, I passed by one of those candlelit roadside altars for the wandering spirits. It was specially dedicated to the spirits of dead children. There were two dolls on the altar, representing male children and female children, plus lots of sweets, milk bottles and other 'kiddy' offerings.

Something like this.



The dolls creeped me out. In the candlelight, it almost looked as though their eyes were watching me. I hurried away. And as I hurried away, I felt as though I was being followed. Like there were a pair of eyes staring into the back of my head. I walked faster, not daring to look behind me. The sensation remained. I started running. Now I felt like I was being chased.

I ran and I ran, not coming to a stop until I reached the grounds of a nearby temple. There, right in front of me, was a huge paper statue of Da Shi Ye/大士爷, the King of Ghosts (he is the commanding officer of all the soldiers of Hell, a former demon king who was subdued by Guan Yin, and he keeps an eye on the wandering spirits during the Seventh Month, destroying any who try to escape or harm humans).



The moment I came face to face with the statue, the sensation of being followed/chased stopped. Only then did I dare to look behind me (there was nothing there). I stayed near the statue for quite a while. I felt so safe, so calm, standing there in the shadow of the King of Ghosts. When I was satisfied that everything was okay, I went straight home.

Could I have been imagining things? Anything's possible, I guess. But I remain firmly convinced that Da Shi Ye saved my life that night. Those kids probably desired a playmate, and may have been willing to kill me to make me one of them.

Ever since then, I've been a believer, praying to Da Shi Ye out of gratitude for being saved. I did this in public to begin with, then pondered the idea of worshipping him at home. I did not know how to set up an altar for home worship at first, though.

So I asked around, and through a family friend, I got to know the man who became my spiritual teacher.



He was a veteran medium, the real deal - very knowledgeable but nevertheless humble and always willing to help. Not only was he a good mentor in all matters concerning Chinese folk religion, he was practically like a dear uncle to me.

Through him, I consolidated my relationship with not only Da Shi Ye, but the other Hell beings, as well. I've seen all kinds of things go down at his temple, that have more than convinced me that there is more to this world than just the physical.

But those are other tales for other days.

then now u can see those spirits?

I don't have the second sight, no.

They make their presence felt to me via mediums (such as my teacher), dreams, and certain other events/signs.

Fascinating read indeed.
This may seem out of topic but there seems to be a couple of huge statues on top of the Guan Yin temple in Penang. Is this something that you're somewhat related to as well?

What will be his advice for non-believers?

Be as virtuous as you can.

You don't necessarily have to be religious to be a good person.

No, it's completely relevant. Guan Yin is a major goddess in both Buddhism and Chinese folk religion.

If you show me pictures of these statues, I might be able to identify them for you and provide additional relevant information.

Did your spiritual teacher told you how he got involved with these practice? How he acquired the spirit eye?

My teacher became a medium at the age of sixteen. People are usually chosen to become mediums as a form of penance for previous negative karma.

He didn't have the second sight, although he was sensitive to the supernatural.

I wonder why it seldom happen on Xtians and Muslims.

Few of my family members are believers of deities too, not exactly Sintua but the more common ones ranging from chinese, hindu and siamese traditions.

Are the hell deities compatible with the heavenly ones when placing their idols close together in an altar?...since people served them different offerings.

This post has been edited by loud: Dec 31 2014, 12:46 PM

You'd be surprised, how many Chinese deities fall under the sintua/folk religion category. Many people who identify as Buddhists or Taoists are actually sintua practitioners; they just don't know it.

If you related some of the deities that your family believes in, I might be able to tell you if you are actually one of my brothers/sisters in faith.

This is a good question.

Heavenly gods and Hell deities are normally placed separately. Take a look at the photo here, for instance; the Heavenly gods occupy the upper portion of the altar, while the Hell deities are placed in an alcove beneath. It is actually quite common for Hell deities to be placed near to or even on the floor; the Chinese phrase for Hell (地狱) literally means 'subterranean prison' or 'prison of the earth', after all.

Need to go through my photo album
But they looked like warriors though

Tian kong
Na tuk kong
Guan kong
Guan Yin
Ganesh
and a few different buddha idols.

Personally my faith has ceased quite for sometime, what remains is curiosity. But the badass looking idols from the pics you posted are too mesmerizing to be ignore...feel like getting them for ornament purpose.



And a buddha is down there enjoying stout with them?

It would seem that you indeed, are, one of my siblings in faith.

Datuk (Na Tok Gong) worship is a Chinese folk religious practice. They are Malay earth gods and nature spirits, the spiritual landowners of Malay soil. If a plot of Datuk-owned land is to be used or developed, the relevant Datuk(s) must be appeased beforehand.





Lord Guan is the sintua God of War, he who protects humanity from war and its horrors, and who is the patron of fighting men such as soldiers and police. He was a philanthropist in addition to being a warrior, and is thus revered as a god of wealth - a military wealth god, who does not usher in wealth but helps you safeguard your wealth from being swindled or stolen. This quality, coupled with his ability as a strategist, makes him revered by 'fighters' of another kind - traders, businessmen, those who 'do battle' in the world of hostile business takeovers and high stakes deals.





Lady Guan Yin is recognised by both Buddhism and Chinese folk religion. Within the sintua context, she is the Goddess of Mercy; a former princess who went against her cruel father's wishes and became a Buddhist nun who subsequently worked many miracles, including saving her father from a dreadful illness, despite him attempting to kill her for defying him.





The 'Buddha' of whom you speak is Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva, also known as Di Zang (地藏; Haven - literally 'womb' - of the Earth) or Ojizosama. Recognised by both Buddhism and Chinese folk religion, he is a Hell-associated Bodhisattva whom we sintua practitioners regard as one of the highest ranking beings in the Hellish pantheon. An ancient king of India turned Buddhist high priest, he a saviour and protector of suffering souls, especially deceased children (including aborted babies), and has the power to pardon those who are undergoing punishments in Hell. He has vowed not to accept the status of Buddha until Hell is empty.



Ksitigarbha is often present on Hell altars in a position presiding over the other, lesser Hell beings (see image below). But no, he does not drink, haha. Offerings to his subordinates that are incompatible with a Buddhist's vows are positioned at a distance from his image.

And that's perfectly okay. There's no pressure on you to conform to any faith, my friend. You're free to leave and return as you so please, as per what you're comfortable with. I'm more than happy for you to discuss the topic from a curious onlooker's perspective.

I'm glad you like the pics I've posted, including those of the statues on my altar. Considerable man-hours and funds went into assembling my personal lineup; feel free to request more photos of it, and ask any relevant questions.

Thank you for their interesting background.
A bit confuse with Guan Yin story. Some source stated that Guan Yin is a He with the original name Avalokiteśvara.
Quote:
The name Avalokiteśvara is made of the following parts: the verbal prefix ava, which means "down"; lokita, a past participle of the verb lok ("to notice, behold, observe"), here used in an active sense (an occasional irregularity of Sanskrit grammar); and finally īśvara, "lord", "ruler", "sovereign" or "master". In accordance with sandhi (Sanskrit rules of sound combination), a+iśvara becomes eśvara. Combined, the parts mean "lord who gazes down (at the world)". The word loka ("world") is absent from the name, but the phrase is implied.[1]

It was initially thought that the Chinese mis-transliterated the word Avalokiteśvara as Avalokitasvara which explained why Xuanzang translated it as Guānzìzài (Ch. 觀自在) instead of Guānyīn (Ch. 觀音). However, according to recent research, the original form was indeed Avalokitasvara[2] with the ending a-svara ("sound, noise"), which means "sound perceiver", literally "he who looks down upon sound" (i.e., the cries of sentient beings who need his help; a-svara can be glossed as ahr-svara, "sound of lamentation").[3] This is the exact equivalent of the Chinese translation Guānyīn. This etymology was furthered in the Chinese by the tendency of some Chinese translators, notably Kumarajiva, to use the variant Guānshìyīn (Ch. 觀世音), literally "he who perceives the world's lamentations"—wherein lok was read as simultaneously meaning both "to look" and "world" (Skt. loka; Ch. 世, shì).[3] This name was later supplanted by the form containing the ending -īśvara, which does not occur in Sanskrit before the seventh century. The original form Avalokitasvara already appears in Sanskrit fragments of the fifth century.[4]

The original meaning of the name fits the Buddhist understanding of the role of a bodhisattva. The reinterpretation presenting him as an īśvara shows a strong influence of Hinduism, as the term īśvara was usually connected to the Hindu notion of Krishna (in Vaisnavism) or Śiva (in Śaivism) as the Supreme Lord, Creator and Ruler of the world. Some attributes of such a god were transmitted to the bodhisattva, but the mainstream of those who venerated Avalokiteśvara upheld the Buddhist rejection of the doctrine of any creator god.[5]

An etymology of the Tibetan name Jänräsig (Jainraisig) is jän (eye), rä (continuity) and sig (to look). This gives the meaning of one who always looks upon all beings (with the eye of compassion).[6]

In other parts of Asia other than China, Avalokitasvara is commonly refers to the Bodhisattva of Compassion or the Goddess of Mercy. In Korean Buddhism Avalokitesvara is Gwaneum, or Gwanseeum-bosal. In Sanskrit, Avalokitesvara is also referred to as Padmapāni ("Holder of the Lotus") or Lokeśvara ("Lord of the World"). In Tibetan, Avalokiteśvara is known as Chenrezig, སྤྱན་རས་གཟིགས་ (Wylie: spyan ras gzigs) and is said to emanate as the Dalai Lama,[7] the Karmapa[8][9] and other high lamas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalokite%C5%9Bvara

There's no confusion there, really.

Avalokitesvara is a genderless Bodhisattva, who has many manifestations, male and female alike. It is the female manifestation of Avalokitesvara whom Chinese folk religion reveres as Lady Guan Yin.

Nice thread! Thanks for sharing!

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=3425705&hl=

Hello Lee, the thanks are mine to offer - I'm grateful that you've come to participate. Feel free to talk about Chinese gods and Chinese folk religion as much as you wish; any questions are welcome.

It is a misconception that all these gods are 'Taoist deities', actually.

For instance, Taoism does not subscribe to the existence of Na Zha and Guan Yin, among many others.

This post has been edited by nachtsider: Jan 1 2015, 10:27 AM

The concept of "San Jiao He Liu / San Jiao He Yi (Confluence of Three Religions / Combination of Three Religions) has already in existence back in Han Dynasty.
In Chinese religion, we absorb the teachings of these three religions, namely Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism.
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E6%...%90%88%E6%B5%81

It is the syncretic form of Chinese religion, which combines some Taoist elements, some Buddhist elements and some Confucian elements, that I refer to as Chinese folk religion or the sintua belief.

However, Chinese folk religion often puts its own interpretation on Buddhist beliefs, Taoist beliefs and Confucian beliefs - see, for instance, our take on Guan Yin.

Also Chinese folk religion has some of its own unique elements, as well.

Trance mediumship - the concept that deities can possess the bodies of human mediums in order to communicate with mortal devotees - is one example. Taoism and Buddhism do not subscribe to this belief, which is very ancient, much older than either of these religions.

Chinese folk religion also accepts a number of non-Chinese belief systems, such as Datuk worship, and includes deities that Buddhism and Taoism either do not recognise at all, or pay the merest of lip service (e.g. the Monkey King and Na Zha).

Well said!

Interesting. Good thread to subscribed to. If you don't mind, please share with me what is eight immotals' place in the whole scheme of things?

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: Jan 1 2015, 11:23 AM

Interesting thread for reading.

All those pictures taken, are at your house?

Thanks again for the nice pic.

Here is a more challenging question...drumroll...

As far as i know, the heaven and hell concept in eastern religion is not eternal, yet people keep praying to the same deities with the same fashion.
Isn't it the time to expect some old deities to retire or take new rebirth?
As for Nezha, aren't he suppose to grow up already?

Hi Energy, the Eight Immortals are a group of eccentric, fun-loving deities with a reputation throughout folklore as gods-about-town who embark on many strange and fantastic adventures. They are not commonly worshiped; it is more usual for them to be regarded as icons and depicted in statues, paintings, etc. as symbols of what they stand for.

They are, anti-clockwise from top right in the picture below (start with the white-beared gentleman and end with the individual holding the fruit basket) - Zhang Guo Lao/張果老, Gao Guo Jiu/曹国舅, Lu Dong Bin/呂洞賓, He Xian Gu/何仙姑, Zhong Li Quan/钟离权, Li Tie Guai/李铁拐, Han Xiang Zi/韩湘子 and Lan Cai He/藍采和.



Zhang is more or less Dionysus - an immortal winemaker, whose brews confer longevity if drunk.

Gao was formerly a royal regent, wields a purifying jade tablet, and is a patron saint of actors, being fond of the performing arts and the theatre.

Lu is an exorcist (and ladies' man) who battles and dispels demons with the aid of his magic sword.

He Xian Gu is a protector of young women, particularly virgin girls (she was a vestal virgin herself). Nuturing and motherly, she was responsible for sheltering and raising the outcast royal baby who would later become the fearsome stellar deity, Marshal Yin (also known as Tai Sui - thereby hangs another story entirely).

Zhong is a former military commander turned alchemist, whose magic fan is said to transform base matter (such as stones) into gold if waved over it.

Li is pretty much Dr. House. A cripple who uses an iron crutch, he is a master healer who has a kind heart beneath his grumpy exterior and carries medicines of all kinds inside his magic gourd.

Han is a philosopher, a patron of musicians (especially flutists, being a skilled flutist himself) and a disciple of Lu Dong Bin.

Lan Cai He (whose gender is ambiguous, but is often depicted as female) is a trickster figure, a mischievous wandering musician renowned for her (his?) clairvoyant activity; s/he was known to sneak his (her?) predictions into the songs s/he sang. S/he is the patron saint of minstrels.

This post has been edited by nachtsider: Jan 3 2015, 08:40 AM

Hi Blofeld, the first picture I posted was taken at my teacher's temple.

My home altar is the one with the winged skull talisman on the back wall.

All the other photos were taken at various temples and shrines around Malaysia and Singapore - sometimes by me, sometimes by my friends and contacts.

Most deities are described as remaining the same age they were when they attained immortality or enlightenment. Which is why Na Zha, for instance, is consistently depicted as a seven-year-old boy. They do not reincarnate, as they have escaped the cycle of death and rebirth.

Some practitioners are of the opinion that cyclical changes do take place amidst the Chinese folk religious pantheon - there are certain Lord Guan followers, for instance, who believe that he has taken on the mantle of Jade Emperor. But they are the minority; to most sintua devotees, the pantheon is static. This static nature is not necessarily as simple as one might think, though; keep reading.

It is entirely possible for a deity to retire for parts unknown, or even to spiritually elevate beyond the reach of us and our world. However, spiritual 'echoes' of said deity may continue to reverberate through space and time even after he or she has departed, these 'echoes' being capable of manifesting as 'residual copies'. Therefore, even a departed god would be capable of continuing to manifest their influence, particularly if belief in them is strong. In such cases, it can seem as though they never left at all, and the status quo therefore remains more or less unchanged.

wow..nice thread

I'm glad you like it, fantasy.

Anything to add or ask?

TS, can u tell me story about ''hell gate'' ?

Last time i watch guai tan. The story is about ''tai pak gong'' bring the tv host journey to hell gate.. Seem interesting..

The Gate of Hell, the Gui Men Guan/鬼门关, is precisely what the label suggests. It is the main entrance to the Netherworld, where all souls must undergo spiritual cultivation and/or punishment for their sins. Legend has it that the gate is situated under one of the old salt mines in Feng Du County. Feng Du is the necropolis of Chinese folklore - the City of the Dead.

怪谈 is a show you really should take with a pinch of salt. I'm familiar with the episode of which you speak, however, and can vouch for the authenticity of the featured temple, which is in Penang.

Taking living individuals down to Hell before their time is up is a VERY risky business, however, and is seldom (if ever) performed unless authorised, and for a very good reason. It can result in serious injury or even death to the human participants. The Hell deity in the episode almost certainly just MADE the host feel as though she was down there, rather than actually take her soul on a trip.

nice tread. just an edit on the order of names for the 8 immortals. It should mention anti-clockwise from the white bearded gentlemen.

just finished reading the thread. It is interesting as I worship only heavenly deities. Never knew there are more widespread deities. I thought only sinseh and those performing last rites worship the hell deities. I stand corrected.

Hi

I'm not sure how to address you TS

I have a few questions, does having sintua eliminate bad luck?

I mean, according to a medium, the Guan Yin in my home has 'ran away'. Since you're quite knowledgeable in this field, perhaps can you enlighten me on this occurance?

My error on that one; I've amended the post.

There are deities of all kinds, my friend, specialising in all sorts of different things.

The Hell deities deal primarily with death and afterlife-related matters, plus the subduing of troublesome ghosts and other supernatural beings. We who privately worship them aren't all THAT common, admittedly, although we certainly do exist. Most of us either have lines of work that are linked to the Hell beings in some way (e.g. undertakers, morticians, palliative care/critical care providers) or otherwise have an affinity for them (e.g. received assistance from them at some point in time).

Hi Patience, call me Nacht. 'TS' sounds so... impersonal, lol.

As I've mentioned, there are different gods who specialise in different things. Gods who deal with matters of luck and prosperity include wealth gods like Tua Pek Gong/大伯公 and Cai Shen Ye/财神爷, and the 'paymaster' type Hell beings such as Jin Qian Bo/金钱伯. One can approach any of the aforementioned regarding such issues.

A consecrated/activated/blessed statue can lose its power if not worshiped properly, neglected or if whatever protocols pertain to it are not adhered to (protocols may differ from deity to deity). Ensure that the medium is reputable, then get them to rectify the issue by either re-activating the existing statue or replacing the statue with a new one.

A statue of, say, Guan Yin, should be consecrated/activated/blessed by a medium who channels Guan Yin or, in the absence of this, a medium who channels a subordinate deity whom Guan Yin has issued the authority to perform consecrations on her behalf.

Installing a deity in one's home is something that requires commitment, faith and relevant purpose; it should not be done if any of these three qualities is lacking.

Morning

Me not chinese too

What I respect most about these old folk beliefs/religion (not just chinese folk in particular but in other races as well) where a man cannot easily touch a girl unless they're married.

It was similar elsewhere all over the globe.

As time goes by, many did not follow them (the rules) no more.




Hail the old traditions


Stephen Chow's 'A Chinese Odyssey' adapted the sintua concept correct?



This post has been edited by Raikkonen: Jan 3 2015, 10:43 AM

Hi Nacht
Is the road side praying/favor seeking ' a proper:act' according to your sifu teaching? What are the repercussion if it has gone wrong?

Chinese folk religion is quite misunderstood these days, especially among the younger generation. Many youngsters barely know who they are praying to, or why. I'm hoping that avenues like this thread will serve to educate them better, at least a little bit.

If you're referring to the 1995 two-parter, yes, I absolutely LOVE that film. Most adaptations of Journey to the West neglect the fact that the Monkey King can be very dangerous, wild and unpredictable when he wants to. They overlook the fact that he was once a feared rebel, who held even the most powerful Heavenly troops at bay.

Hi Energy, there is nothing wrong at all about stopping by wayside shrines or temples and paying your respects there. If said places are isolated or rarely visited, the gods enshrined within might even see this as a nice gesture on your part, and smile upon you. But of course, to pray merely in the hope of obtaining blessings from the gods is not a good attitude to adopt.

Bald-facedly asking the gods for favours, particularly selfish favours born of greed, is very poor form. You can expect such requests to be ignored outright. If you are deemed to be particularly undeserving, some sort of admonishment might very well take place.

A virtuous person in genuine/dire need of help who approaches them, however, is another story entirely.

Here is the story of the Black and White Brothers (the original pair, at any rate), if anyone is interested.

Once upon a time during the Song Dynasty, there were two constables who worked at a magistrate's yamen in Anxi Province. Their names were Xie Bi An/谢必安 and Fan Wu Jiu/范无救. Orphaned from an early age, Xie and Fan were childhood friends, stuck up for each other and joined the police force together. They were as congenial as actual brothers, and were famous for being upright, capable officers of the law who were absolutely incorruptible and would always catch their man.

There came a day when the magistrate dispatched Xie and Fan to apprehend a gang of vicious bandits. Fan, always eager to impress Xie, tried to apprehend them alone. Unfortunately, he was captured, tied up and thrown into a river to drown. Xie rushed in, killed the bandits and dived into the river to save his friend. He was too late, however; Fan had already succumbed. The heartbroken Xie chose to hang himself rather than live on.

As hanging cuts off the blood supply to your face and kills by suffocation, Xie's ghost is deathly pale and has a protruding tongue; as drowning victims are bloated from swallowing water and have blue-black complexions from lack of oxygen, Fan's ghost is bloated and has bluish-black skin. Upon their arrival in the Netherworld, the Ten Judges, impressed by their devotion to their duty and their loyalty to one another, ordained them as Chief Constables; they now help the City Gods to collect the souls of the newly dead for processing and judgement.

Xie and Fan wield magic items in order to assist them in carrying out their duties. Xie carries an enchanted fan, that can draw out a living creature's soul if waved over the being in question, while Fan carries enchanted chains that can restrain the living and the dead alike.

Written on Xie's hat is the inscription 'See Me and Prosper'/一见发财, while Fan's hat bears the inscription 'Omnipresent Peace'/天下太平. These were originally meant to be ironic slogans, given the fact that one normally encounters them when one's time is up. But they also refer to the fact that Xie and Fan may occasionally reward living beings whom they cross paths with, provided of course that the individuals are deserving people. This has given them the nickname of 黑白无常鬼, or Black and White Unpredictable Ghosts. '无常' additionally refers to the impermanent, fleeting nature of life, in keeping with how the two brothers are beings associated with death and dying.

Who is the King of Ghosts?



Da Shi Ye/大士爷, the Venerable Great Lord, also known as the King of Ghosts (大士鬼王), is one of the most fearsome Hell deities, if not THE most fearsome. Originally a vicious demon king who was the holy terror of the spiritual realm, Da Shi Ye was subdued by Guan Yin, the Goddess of Mercy, subsequently converting to the cause of good and becoming her disciple. This did not entirely quell his ferocious nature, however, and Guan Yin found him a job that would allow him to exercise this characteristic in a constructive manner - she found him a job as the commander of Hell's soldiers, including beings such as the Black and White Brothers and other ghostly troops.

Worship of Da Shi Ye becomes very widespread during the Seventh Month - the Hungry Ghost Festival. It is during this period that the souls serving penance in Hell are temporarily set free for a month's reprieve, and Da Shi Ye keeps his glinting eye on these prisoners, ensuring that they do not harm human beings or escape. In accordance with this belief, large paper effigies of him are erected in temple grounds, cemeteries and other strategic areas where the wandering spirits are said to frequent.



Da Shi Ye's fierceness is legendary. Any and all who offend against him or defy him are sure to be destroyed. Even his own followers fear him, as well as some of his superiors. There is only one individual who can quell his savage temper, and this is, of course, Guan Yin. Take a close look at a statue of Da Shi Ye, and you will see a small figurine of Guan Yin sitting or standing upon his head - she is there to quell his excesses and ensure that he does not go overboard.

Hi Nacht,

I bought a Buddha bust made from wood and Crystal cube laser engraving "Guan Gong", and I display them in my display cabinet. is it ok to display them as ornament? am I being disrespectful?

Thanks.

Hi Brusky, a statue of a god that has not been consecrated can most definitely be used as an ornamental piece. Treat it respectfully (e.g. not bring it into a toilet, not allow it to be marred/vandalised, not allow it to become dirty or grimy) and you'll be fine.

None of them is consecrated and I think is proper if I gave it away so others can consecrated and used it as an object of worship.

That's very altruistic of you.

I'm still hoping that more people who are familiar with Chinese folk religious practices will come into this thread to participate. Which is not to be disparaging of everyone else who has posted so far, of course; for people who are not of the faith, some of you are asking really intelligent questions. Keep the queries coming!

nachtsider

Great thread TS. It's something useful to find references like this in English, a bit hard if you're non-Chinese speaker.

keep for later studying.

No problem, Wolger! I want to make this a useful resource for practitioners, mere enthusiasts, and the casually curious alike.

While I will update the thread with information provided of my own accord, it is your questions and comments that should ideally serve as fuel for the fire.

Feel free to ask about any of the gods or ritual practices, and I will answer your queries to the best of my ability.

this consider Taoism?

Not quite.

Sintua/Chinese folk religion contains a number of elements that Taoism does not agree with, such as mediumship, and worships a number of gods that Taoism either does not acknowledge or pays only very slight lip service, such as the Monkey King, Datuk Gongs, many of the Hell beings and Guan Yin.

It does include a number of Taoist concepts such as Tai Sui worship, yes, but interprets them in its own way.

I would regard sintua and Taoism to be like Judaism and Christianity - similar but not the same.

in my hometown my grandma house, there are few statue, God of prosperity, Judge of Hell, Kuanyin on top, then 5 kiddo at bottom then behind got 1 kitchen guardian kind of stuff. Taoism, no?

If Guan Yin is there, my answer would have to be 'no'.

By 'five kiddos', I think you are referring to the Five Ghosts/五鬼将军. They are childlike ghostly creatures who act as assistants and runners for the higher ranking Hell beings.

While I don't subsribe to the beliefs, it's still very interesting to learn and read about the stories and folk religion

it's good that there are people like you around to keep the culture alive.

What is the purpose of self piercing and mutilation during the trance of a temple medium?

Another good question.

Self-mutilation is usually performed only for very specific purposes.

The first purpose is empowerment. Certain ritual items used for self-mutilation correspond to certain deities. Pic #1 shows an example - a set of nine spikes, corresponding to nine Hell soldiers known as the Nine Yin Warriors/九阴军.



When a medium wishes to imbue himself with the power of the Nine Yin Warriors for the purpose of conducting a ritual, he will pierce his body with the spikes (see pic #2).



The second purpose for self-mutilation is to shed divinely imbued blood. When a medium is in trance, the divine essence of the gods they are channelling courses through their bodies, and by extension their bodily fluids, too, such as blood, sweat, tears and so on. Self-mortification is done for the purpose of drawing the energised blood, which can then be used as a magic ingredient to activate ritual items and prepare talismans with; it can also act as a repellent against demonic creatures or other evil beings. The objects used to self-mutilate are special ritual weapons such as axes, swords, spiked balls and so on.

Pic #3 shows a medium mutilating his tongue to draw blood. He is channelling a Hell deity (Elder Brother) and the weapon he is using is a special abacus with a blade fixed onto the top frame - Hell deities use abacuses to calculate people's sins and merits, plus their estimated lifespans.



Pic #4 shows a ritual fan that has been energised/activated by being daubed with drops of blood.

DISPLAY divinity, i guess?

In comparison to the reasons I've outlined above, this is of little importance.

The gods do not necessarily bother if you believe in them or otherwise.

hmmm.. that is more like a secondary purpose.. not the real or primary purpose.. imagine if you want to be medium for say monkey king.. what do you think the medium should be like? a monk? or normal folk who wore like taichi master clothes? it would be normal to mimic the monkey king as much as possible.. the hat with two long "tail" thingy and at the min his long staff.. if not how would the monkey king know that is the "medium" for him? so.. "recognisable" medium is one.. second is these "gods" sometimes have their own "special" stuffs/weapons that they carry or is linked to.. it might be a source they "draw" their ability from.. like the guy above mention.. the 9 yin warriors.. or the abacus which that particular deity carry and use most and perform his duty with.. just putting it in logic ways.. if they need it in their time and "realm" to perform their duty.. if they "cross" here... its natural they need it to do their "stuff" right? i think thats what the guy trying to explain...

lets put this into current world perspective.. if you were to cosplay... say kirito in sword art online.. what do the cosplayer need? imagine the cosplayer is the medium.. well.. thats roughly the same idea... the cosplayer needs to be a guy since kirito is a guy (of coz there are crossdresser but hey.. we are talking about the respect and norm here).. he needs his two swords (items kirito used in the anime) and a black attire.. as close as possible to the anime right? only then you know he is cosplaying as kirito.. in the ritual aspect.. the medium plays a bit different role.. instead of "acting" like the person cosplayer wanna mimic.. the medium is trying to "invite" the spirit/god to enter into him.. so he needs to look as "close" to the deity as "humanly" possible... of coz if the spirit is monkey king you dont expect the guy to be hairy like a monkey or what.. just as humanly possible.. they are good "spirit/deity/god".. they will forgive the shortcomings and they aint gonna punish you that bad if you dont look exactly like them... just do their best to look like them will do... and unlike the cosplayer where they try to "act" like the anime character.. medium invites the spirit to perform duty the spirit's "power/ability/duty" whatever the ritual is about.. so they need their "stuff/weapon/whatever they need"... get it? and since the mutilation/weapons/method is the spirits own "stuff" it wont affect/harm the medium as he is protected by such spirit/god/enlightened beings.. i think thats the main reason behind it.. of coz.. the "show" power part as i said is more like the "side effects" of such act where ppl goes... "wah.... kena poke till like pin cushion still ok... wah... bleed the tongue and bla bla bla still no problem..".. as i say.. those stuff they do wont harm the medium since they are protected by the spirit/deity/god and those items or stuff is theirs in the first place.... so.. dont lar say they show off not good you know

This post has been edited by Wolves: Jan 7 2015, 11:27 AM

This is actually a very insightful post, Wolves. I'm curious, haha - are you involved with Chinese folk religion in any shape or form, or do you at least have a cosplay background?

Mediums often dress up as they deities they are channelling; it is often said amongst those in the trade that the more authentic the resemblance provided by the costume and makeup, the smoother the trance will proceed, as the medium effectively becomes a duplicate physical body for the deity - a second skin, so to speak.

That being said, the gods do not select mediums on the basis of physical resemblance, lol.

Here is a particularly authentic-looking Monkey King medium.

sorry.. no cosplay and no sintua or chinese folk involvement... i am what they call a scholar or study geek.. i study anything and everything and i do come across the topic of "religion" and did some "study" in it.. and yes.. the closer the "resemblence" the smoother the "transition"... i think some ppl on the second page mention why no xtians or other religion who "experience" or why certain ppl are "selected" being the medium... and i remember you also mention your sifu is chosen coz previous life he not very good or something and as punishment... he was chosen... erm... i would like to challenge that notion/thinking... base on what i have read... actually... its a bit long as it involves a few theories... =.="

hmmmm... after second thought.. i think i might explain.. for those who dont like to read.. stop here.. for those who wish to know why.. read on.. its very long... first the thought of reincarnation.. this of coz comes from buddism point of view.. this world is called samsara.. the world of suffering... one of the 4 noble truth.. i spare you the details.. in this world.. life is suffering.. to get out of this world of suffering.. you must get out of the wheel of rebirth.. the wheel of rebirth has 6 path... human is one of the "better" path but it still world of suffering... when you get out of the wheel of suffering... you are what they called enlightened beings.. arahats is the lowest of the enlightened beings... ji gong.. the monk who travel and have powers and so call drinks and stuff.. he is an arahat... in chinese pin yin its called luo han.... lady guan yin is bodhisatvas... the highest few of the enlightened beings.. these enlightened beings.. which some refer as god or spirit or what... is "closer" to the inhabitants of the world of samsara since they just escaped the wheel of rebirth.. hence.. can easily "connect" with us and "influence" us.. and help us.. you seldom see stories where "buddha sakyamuni" was involved in our world.. the ones you hear is before his passing to the other side and claim the title "buddha"... bodhisatvas as well when they "cross over" they will be buddha.. its a phase... and di zhang pu sha... its actually translated as earth store bodhisatvas.. actually he is as "enlightened" as buddha... at his time.. two of them were able to attain the title buddha but he did not cross as he symphatized humans and see them suffering in the realms of hungry ghost and hell.. hence.. instead of "crossing" over to the other world.. he went down the realm of hell and decided to help the beings there to get enlightened and reduce suffering and help them overcome their bad karma... and he vowed he will not cross over until there is no longer any beings that is still in this world (as oppose to what you say about nobody left in hell.. ).. ie.. he will he the last to cross over.. ok.. background story set..now.. how do you determine where is your rebirth.. there is 6 path.. it all depends on your karma... 3 "better" realms.. 3 "worse" realms... and if you were to go "human realms".. how your birth is determined? lots of ppl ask.. why my life like that... why my habit like that... why i always face this problem... this is the answer the those qs.... and they are because........... next paragraph... another long story..

karma.. everything one does.. it accumulates karma.. be it good.. bad.. or neutral.. and where you ended up will depends on what karma you have accumulated.. karma is 3 types... i spare details on that.. thats another big topic.. if you have good karma.. and you are to be rebirth as human.. you will be rebirth into a good family... but if you have bad karma.. and chosen to go to human realms.. but on poor conditions.. if you are a buddist in previous life.. chances are you will have a better intellectual/smart... thats what i heard.. coz you study a lot and you broke a lot of obstacles so when you are rebirth.. you are born with less "obstacles" in life and you can seek out knowledge a lot easier.. whatever you do.. you create these karmic knots.. if you bully a begger... in the next life you will meet this begger but instead of him.. you would be the begger begging him... if you treat your wife badly.. next life you might be the wife bla bla bla... karma... what goes around comes around.. and humans are suffering because of these karma as well.. thats why they say ppl who have unfinished karmic knots will have to stay in the realms of rebirth until they untie all of them.. and gained enuf good karma to be out of the wheel of rebirth... ok.. i think i go a bit lengthy de.. anyway... there is no right or wrong path.. right or wrong deities.. or religion... every religion could lead you to the path of enlightenment.. but how you know which one is for you.. easy.. the one you are the most at ease with.. the enlightened beings.. all of them are compassion and will come to help every living soul.. how connected you are to any of them... depends on your accumulated karma... or what you have done before.. maybe TS was a ghost general for the deity before.. hence in this life... he is "connected" to the hell beings.. who knows.. or maybe TS was a fren with one of the generals down there.. and that general talk abt him and decided to help him.. we dunno.. one thing we know is.. we are more drawn to one or a few of such good spirits.. and they will try to come and help us.. to point us the way.. not to worship them i mind you.. they are just helping... and they can see past into our past lives.. some ppl can see their past life.. a lot of example of these... and see what they had done.. you can go to any temple and check if there is a person where whom can do it.. some rely on a book... and mind you.. that book is written over 1000 years ago and its still useable even until today.. that book can tell you past lives.. the most direct one.. and what you have done.. what you are blessed with this life coz of it.. and what you owe in the previous life... and you need to pay back and how.. anyway.. this also tells us why certain ppl are good with certain stuff.. i have heard a 5 years old kid who had never learned piano and can instantly play the highest grade piano and he just remember it off his head... and some ppl are "talented" or more drawn to something... these.. are all karma.. another good and living example.. the dalai lama... the current one was reincarnation of the previous one and the previous one and previous one... now he is 14th reincarnation.. he chose to be reincarnated coz he has a "duty" to fulfil before he cross over.. and hence he kept reincarnated and ppl "can find him"... he left signs that its him for the ppl to "find" and know its him..

ok... its getting a bit long winded.. i have heard base on the rebirth and karma and "what you bring over from past life" theory... due to the previous "path/religion" taken... it could also means that last life if he was a strong christian.. this life he technically will be "drawn" to christians... and so on and so forth... and since he is a "strong" christian follower.. it only makes sense he will do as what his "deity" tells him to... and if we bring this example to our brother here... it also means that his guru.. in previous life was a loyal and strong follower of sintua religion.. and he was particularly "holy" or very very devoted... hence this life.. he is "easily connect" and resume from his previous life.. this is proven by babies or kids who are sensitive.. those who had opened their sixth sense/third eye/second vision as TS put it in his religion (same thing.. diffferent sect refers them differently).. in their previous life when they see.. they also had opened them... thats why when borned in this world... the eyes are not really "shut" as they had utilize them in past life and its too strong.. that is why they say do not "close" it if possible and if you do close it.. his fate in this life will have a drastic change.. since there must be a reason or things he need to do this life thats why he "forcefully" try to kept it open... i dunno.. it could be by accident wuahahah.. anyway.. some ppl can "feel" at young age.. can "see" at young age... or half vision as one guy put it.. i believe they are all connected to what they did in previous life.. one more thing... in the karma explaination.. its a long topic but bear with me... there is a mentioning that you will be reborned into a place where most of the ppl you meet.. even your father and mother and siblings were ppl you had connections with previous life.. your father.. mother.. siblings.. sons.. grandsons... friends.. wife... gf bf... ex gf and ex bfs.... they are here in this world with two purpose.. one.. to "pay" back your good doings in previous life.. or to make you "pay back" what you owe them in previous life.. have you notice there are some ppl you wanna hate but cannot hate? you wanna avoid but cannot avoid? some ppl are nice to you but no reason and some gals are attach to evil ppl and do whatever they wish? well.. thats the explanation to it... anyway.. i better stop de

This post has been edited by Wolves: Jan 7 2015, 05:24 PM

anyway.. base on the last paragraph above.. i believe your guru/sifu was a very holy and devoted sintua practitioner in his previous life.. it can be seen by how he do stuff.. i am sure he is kind and helpful and very compassionate towards others.. and base on the theory i said.. these were brought forward from previous life.. and to be able to be "chosen".... in previous life.. he must be one hella holy fella that even the deity so like him and hence can easily "go into his body" and so on and so forth.. and he acquired blessings and protection from the deity... hence.. i think you should "study" more on that... i believe its a blessings and not a punishment... thats my two cents..

This post has been edited by Wolves: Jan 7 2015, 05:38 PM

One particular lady medium that I know actually said despite how many times since young in her life that she has turned away and attempted to deny her 'duty' to become the medium and help people. Her fate and her life was so bad each time she turned her back, she was divorced, she has a son that she has to let him addressed her by name and not by being called 'mom' , her other livelihood and businesses failed. She had a very difficult childhood that remained difficult to her adulthood.

She has said at the end , she has to concede and surrender to her chosen path, not by her own choice but by the deity that has chosen her and she has mentioned that she has been a very bad person in her previous lives so she has to do this until her bad deeds of former lives are all equalized by being medium to let Deity help people who sought for help through her.

Being a medium is hardwork... it is not a chosen profession but rather hard works bestowed on those who are born to have such destiny to 'pay back' in such ways.

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: Jan 8 2015, 12:27 AM

OH, when i reply that, i forgot about the imbued power of the blood into talisman/charm (符箓)

BTW, personally, I am not a religious person and I am not even close to believe in such deities. But again, I am Chinese Malaysian, I grew up around this stuff even though my parents is strictly agnostics and do not pray in any form. Thus come the curiosity to study, especially sintua is very popular among some sub-group of our community. (sorry to say so and i apologize if I hurt or insult your feelings)

However, I find it very difficult to learn about this, as I always being chased away from the sintua, due to my "not believing" state.

very information thread...any summary

While you are right in outlining the importance of karma, Wolves, it is not the sole force governing a person's lot in life. The role of chance/entropy can and does play a significant role, as well. Bad things can unexpectedly happen to good people, and bad people can have runs of good luck.

Nor is anyone's fate set in stone or pre-written, either. You are not a puppet dancing to a pre-written script; you write the script as you go along.

While it is flattering to ponder the possibility of a link to the Hell beings on my part in a previous existence... nah, I wouldn't necessarily count on it, lol. At any rate, delving into one's prior existence is not an advisable activity. The whole point of spiritual cultivation after death, plus reincarnation, is letting go of the past while retaining the lessons learned from it. Digging too deeply or clinging onto what is rightfully dead and gone might lead to serious conflicts, such as people trying to settle old scores. The world might potentially descend into chaos.

Good post, though, man. You're a very astute guy.

My teacher would have appreciated the praise, Wolves, although the following post by Energy is actually closer to his situation, plus that of many other mediums:

Every medium I know has led a hard life, and all have stated, in no uncertain terms, that their spiritual service indeed is a form of penance for sins past and/or present.

As for acquiring blessings and protection from the deities that they channel, the truth of the matter is that while the deities do look out for their mediums and offer a certain degree of protection, trance mediumship is actually a very risky activity.

While karmic debts are the prime criteria for medium selection, the deities are careful to only choose those who are sufficiently strong of mind and body. The human body is not rightfully built to withstand the strain of channelling a god. Question a medium about how he or she feels directly after a trance, and the answer you will get is invariably: "I feel extremely tired."

This strain is an unavoidable occupational hazard, just like how radiation exposure is an occupational hazard of working in a nuclear power plant. Although the gods try to limit the duration of trance in the interest of the medium's health and safety, stress, strain and damage, both physical and mental, are sustained each time. The cumulative effect will eventually show.

Many mediums consequently die young. My teacher himself knew of this risk, yet cheerfully and bravely went about his duties. He was not quite 55 years old when he passed away.

this 唤醒 me of my way of praying to gods at temple...

asking for help (health recovery, peace, career /businesses' obstacles removal or subduing ) is ok, i guess, but asking for money , wealth, kena number, Kena loteri is too much, some temple actually blatantly tells you 'we are not that kind of place'

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: Jan 8 2015, 09:56 AM

Oh from Klang ar?

I always go to a temple in Klang called Jiu Tian Ting.

They worship the boddhisattva called "Dou Mu Tian Zun"

hmmm.. you and nachtsider said the same thing.. as the matter of fact.. since you two mention it.... that reminds me of the sifu i went to see last year june... from the way he talks.. he sounds like what you said.. he mention he have to send his wife and daughters away in some far away land and when i ask him (out of fun) saying if my career is the right path or not as i dont like what i am doing and i dont feel its my job... he did say "you think i choose this path? i also dont like what i do but the gods/spirits chose me... when they chose me.. there is no way i can run away from it.. i have to do what i was given the task to..".... so... i think you two are kinda right.. it dint strike me till now... but then again... i think back.. he did say he need to do "his" task as its what he "do best".. if he do any other things.. it will not be as successful as what he is doing now so i always thought that... due to his past karma... its his best "ability" and maybe in his past life.. he is already a very devoted and holy person to that "Deity" and hence the deity stick to him very strongly and to deter him from fallen further from enlightenment... they intercept? you know... out of compassion? hmmm.. my reasoning is they when they underwent the wheel of reincarnation.. they did "forget" and as the TS said... leave the past behind.. so they might not "remember" about that.. but as i say.. the deity does... and they wanted to help ppl cross over the other world and get enlightenment.. if you asked me.. they are good spirits right? so i am sure if the "person" is almost there... it makes more sense to "help/bug/nudge" him more towards the "right path".. whatever that path is due to his previous life or karma... isnt it? of coz i got no concrete evidence of it.. but if you look at "older" medium.. none of them actually regret the path... only the new or young ones does but you can say due to conditioning... if i were to make sense of it.. being a medium is hard work.. i agree.. and its not pleasant.. i agree.. but its the "fastest" good karma generator... you help ppl.. all sorts.. and you help the deity at the same time to do their work on earth.. yes you get tired and live shorter lives bla bla bla.. coz you are human... your body is human and you carry deity frequencies... i can understand that part.. and you "die" faster.. to me... i think compare to the good karma.. purifying karma and all those good stuff.. its "worth" it?... no? tell me.. if there is a better way than that to gain good karma so you can be enlightened? i dont think so..

on a second note... those "normal people" medium as you said... as i say.. they do "claim" that its not "easy/good"... i agree those i "met"/known.. like you two said.. they say same thing... but what if we look at monks... the guy i talking about.. base on what his "place" looks like and the statues.. i deduce he is tibetan style.. i did ask his "follower".. the one who bring me.. why he choose such a place.. she told me the "spirit" doesnt want to move and stubbornly stays there so he got no choice but to move to such "far away" and secluded location... he tried to move but the spirit just wont budge.. and i did ask whats his "way".. and to cut things short.. the explanation was of clairaudience... there are 5 types a medium can "interact"... i cut you the details... so this guy belongs to the hearing type.. anyway.. back to theory.. i also knew of some medium... like the ones in tibet.. i forgot which monastry but they will have a monk who posses certain connections to some of the deity... and if he pass... they will automatically be another one.. erm.... they call the deity the protector.. anyway.. he does the trance and let the possession thingy every year.. and from what i know.. he very happy due to the reasons i said.. and even kenchara house or something in kl and pg.. the rinpoche.. i dunno him.. i just see his video and stuff... he talk abt divinations before.. but the way he speaks its more like a blessings.. but its hard work just to "keep" communicating with it.. ie.. keeps the connection opens.. but all the "hard" work at the same time generates humongous good karma and so on and leads to "faster" enlightenments... i have read similar stories by ppl from different sects... and depends on the "holiness" of the person.. the "happy to do it" energy is different... i can say those like tibetan monks.. those normal monks.. some even muslim haji (not saying bad things ya.. i just telling base on what i heard/know/talk to).. some of them can actually "see" through you.. and even christians have some who "does" but of coz they wont tell you... and you need to "grill" it out of them these "holy" ppl thinks its a blessing to be "medium".. and as i say.. normal common folks.. if the older ones you ask them.. they feel same.. but as i say.. they might be "conditioned" to be such and they dont wanna create more bad karma by saying otherwise? i dunno.. so........... its an open debate i guess... but overall.. since i seen more "happy" ones from all different "sects" and only the chinese folks common ppl says the opposite.. i will gonna think its a good thing... and if what TS says abt the "compatibility" of deity to medium is right... then it also should falls in my way in saying the only medium whom the deity should be able to be "compatible" with.. is someone of such high karmic values and holiness and devotion... thats my arguement.. of coz i am just a "geek" who reads and thinks too much.. i not pro.. so i could be wrong...

i beg to differ on this as well.. "chance" is also karma's work if you look at it at the bigger picture.. as i say.. the topic of karma is quite huge.. and i told you there are 3 types of karma.. yes i agree fate is not written and could be change.. i use that arguement on divinations.. what are the purpose of divination.. ie.. divine intervention? its so your future can change.. if it cant change.. why bother ask for divination? of coz there are other things but thats a valid arguement for "fate cannot change"... therefore karma still important and chance/good luck/bad luck.. this is extention of karma.. should i explain...hmmm... its very long....... sigh.. anyway.. summary is 3 types karma.. and chance is an extention of it.. why certain ppl meet certain "fate" or chance... its coz of previous karma he needs to resolve.. he can resolve or not.. can escape or not... depends on his current available karma.. if he did good this life.. and accumulated certain amount.. even if he meets the accident which is due to previous karma.. either this life or previous life... he can still survive.. ie.. miracle bla bla bla.. btw.. miracle is also an extension of karma... thats why i say the karma topic is very huge.. lemme put your questioning mind into gear.. why in a bad situation.. lets say... 9-11 case.. why did some ppl "die".. some "escaped" unscratched.. and some with injury or disability.. and why "all those ppl" are there at the certain time certain place? coincidence? i dont think so.. and thats what set me off to find the answer.. and i found them in the topic of "karma"

i answered this above.. but importantly.. i still wish to highlight is that the way "they" see things.. i believe is very important.. and as i mention.. there is 5 types... some like your sifu might only have one.. and coz of how he "sees" his life... maybe thats why he only got one... i seen ppl with more than one.. erm.. usually the "more" type he possess.. the more holy in a way.. but you cant measure "holy" nor judge "how holy" a person is.. so.. i gonna say "enlightened" or compassionate here the more compassionate one person is... the more "spiritual ability" they possess... and the more happy they are to "help" us... hope you get the meaning.. and most of "these" highly "compassionate" ppl thinks its a blessing..

on another note.. i tend to differ on the "look" at your past life story.. i understand what has been done is done.. we cannot change it... but on the topic of karma... or "self" in this case.. another long story but i gonna use summary.. what are this "self" we are talking about.. if you believe in reincarnation... what is being incarnated... if you dwell into that.. then the reincarnated "thing"... or most ppl called "self"... how is this "self" like... do you understand this "self"? and the list goes on.. long story short... to understand this "self".. some back "travelling" is needed... see what this "self" has done.. what trouble or habit it had form.. whats the sorce of it and by knowing it.. you can "remove" the habit now and for future life.. improving one "self" for next life and eventually to the path of enlightenment... erm... if i need to go any deeper i believe its gonna be hours lecture de... so i stop here.. all in all.. i believe knowing your "past".. learning from your "past".. and of coz letting go of the "past" is the key to a better "future".. at least you could "shape" or "create" a better condition for the future... i am talking about multiple "life time" here... but in actual fact.. this can also be applied for one lifetime.. ie.. now... i think i will call it "self-improvements".. whatever you wanna call it... lets debate more

ALL temples will blatantly tell you that requesting lotto numbers is a fool's errand.

Well, the legitimate temples, at any rate.

The only times I have actually seen deities give out lotto numbers was either to raise money for the temples themselves (charity events, to pay for temple equipment and other expenses, etc), or to help devotees who were truly in need of financial assistance (i.e. to pay for medical bills).

There was once an instance where a local gangster blatantly demanded lotto numbers from a Hell deity. The Hell deity provided and the gangster scored, but he met with a motor vehicle accident shortly afterwards; the money he won was barely enough to cover the cost of his hospitalisation, and he remained permanently paralysed afterwards.

ONE temple around my work place offer lotto numbers with extreme graffiti writing, every other weekends, by Second Elder Brother.

After the channelling and scribbling, then the protege (young kids, age 12++) will then stapler it on a bulletin.

Folks gather around and guess what it is.

If anyone tio any prize from the number, they will come back with offerings, from fruits, beer, joss paper, to equipment.

Once a guy tio second price, come back with a marble incense burner, so heavy need 4 guy to pick it up.

wuuuu... nice... makes my heart itchy wanna move and live there.. wuahahahahah... but then again.. it reminds me of something.. once i were dwelling into the topic of "how to know who is real medium"... and how to "identify" who is not real... what are the "limitations" to such "power/ability"... and WHO can do divination.. and WHY sometimes there are some "conflicting" divination... the answer is nice..

This temple, have both shady and true medium I guess.

There is one guy that trance into Ji Gong, which being caught by me playing tricks to show "divination".

There is also other disciple that trance into other Gods being able to help rebuild torn families, calm retaliating children or so on.

But since I am not a believer, when ever I am around during the trance, which I accompany friends/colleagues to go for a purpose, I was teased, even challenged once by Guan Gong

Being chased away from a sintua or temple on the grounds of not being a believer is utterly disgusting, and something I absolutely condemn.

A legitimate sintua opens its doors to believers and non-believers alike, and encourages questions by any and all who are interested in learning about its practices.

A legitimate medium will never work alongside a fake, or engage in criminal conduct.

I think the reason why you were not made welcome there is now quite obvious - they do not want you probing too deeply into what are obviously fraudulent practices on their part.