very information thread...any summary

While you are right in outlining the importance of karma, Wolves, it is not the sole force governing a person's lot in life. The role of chance/entropy can and does play a significant role, as well. Bad things can unexpectedly happen to good people, and bad people can have runs of good luck.

Nor is anyone's fate set in stone or pre-written, either. You are not a puppet dancing to a pre-written script; you write the script as you go along.

While it is flattering to ponder the possibility of a link to the Hell beings on my part in a previous existence... nah, I wouldn't necessarily count on it, lol. At any rate, delving into one's prior existence is not an advisable activity. The whole point of spiritual cultivation after death, plus reincarnation, is letting go of the past while retaining the lessons learned from it. Digging too deeply or clinging onto what is rightfully dead and gone might lead to serious conflicts, such as people trying to settle old scores. The world might potentially descend into chaos.

Good post, though, man. You're a very astute guy.

My teacher would have appreciated the praise, Wolves, although the following post by Energy is actually closer to his situation, plus that of many other mediums:

Every medium I know has led a hard life, and all have stated, in no uncertain terms, that their spiritual service indeed is a form of penance for sins past and/or present.

As for acquiring blessings and protection from the deities that they channel, the truth of the matter is that while the deities do look out for their mediums and offer a certain degree of protection, trance mediumship is actually a very risky activity.

While karmic debts are the prime criteria for medium selection, the deities are careful to only choose those who are sufficiently strong of mind and body. The human body is not rightfully built to withstand the strain of channelling a god. Question a medium about how he or she feels directly after a trance, and the answer you will get is invariably: "I feel extremely tired."

This strain is an unavoidable occupational hazard, just like how radiation exposure is an occupational hazard of working in a nuclear power plant. Although the gods try to limit the duration of trance in the interest of the medium's health and safety, stress, strain and damage, both physical and mental, are sustained each time. The cumulative effect will eventually show.

Many mediums consequently die young. My teacher himself knew of this risk, yet cheerfully and bravely went about his duties. He was not quite 55 years old when he passed away.

this 唤醒 me of my way of praying to gods at temple...

asking for help (health recovery, peace, career /businesses' obstacles removal or subduing ) is ok, i guess, but asking for money , wealth, kena number, Kena loteri is too much, some temple actually blatantly tells you 'we are not that kind of place'

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: Jan 8 2015, 09:56 AM

Oh from Klang ar?

I always go to a temple in Klang called Jiu Tian Ting.

They worship the boddhisattva called "Dou Mu Tian Zun"

hmmm.. you and nachtsider said the same thing.. as the matter of fact.. since you two mention it.... that reminds me of the sifu i went to see last year june... from the way he talks.. he sounds like what you said.. he mention he have to send his wife and daughters away in some far away land and when i ask him (out of fun) saying if my career is the right path or not as i dont like what i am doing and i dont feel its my job... he did say "you think i choose this path? i also dont like what i do but the gods/spirits chose me... when they chose me.. there is no way i can run away from it.. i have to do what i was given the task to..".... so... i think you two are kinda right.. it dint strike me till now... but then again... i think back.. he did say he need to do "his" task as its what he "do best".. if he do any other things.. it will not be as successful as what he is doing now so i always thought that... due to his past karma... its his best "ability" and maybe in his past life.. he is already a very devoted and holy person to that "Deity" and hence the deity stick to him very strongly and to deter him from fallen further from enlightenment... they intercept? you know... out of compassion? hmmm.. my reasoning is they when they underwent the wheel of reincarnation.. they did "forget" and as the TS said... leave the past behind.. so they might not "remember" about that.. but as i say.. the deity does... and they wanted to help ppl cross over the other world and get enlightenment.. if you asked me.. they are good spirits right? so i am sure if the "person" is almost there... it makes more sense to "help/bug/nudge" him more towards the "right path".. whatever that path is due to his previous life or karma... isnt it? of coz i got no concrete evidence of it.. but if you look at "older" medium.. none of them actually regret the path... only the new or young ones does but you can say due to conditioning... if i were to make sense of it.. being a medium is hard work.. i agree.. and its not pleasant.. i agree.. but its the "fastest" good karma generator... you help ppl.. all sorts.. and you help the deity at the same time to do their work on earth.. yes you get tired and live shorter lives bla bla bla.. coz you are human... your body is human and you carry deity frequencies... i can understand that part.. and you "die" faster.. to me... i think compare to the good karma.. purifying karma and all those good stuff.. its "worth" it?... no? tell me.. if there is a better way than that to gain good karma so you can be enlightened? i dont think so..

on a second note... those "normal people" medium as you said... as i say.. they do "claim" that its not "easy/good"... i agree those i "met"/known.. like you two said.. they say same thing... but what if we look at monks... the guy i talking about.. base on what his "place" looks like and the statues.. i deduce he is tibetan style.. i did ask his "follower".. the one who bring me.. why he choose such a place.. she told me the "spirit" doesnt want to move and stubbornly stays there so he got no choice but to move to such "far away" and secluded location... he tried to move but the spirit just wont budge.. and i did ask whats his "way".. and to cut things short.. the explanation was of clairaudience... there are 5 types a medium can "interact"... i cut you the details... so this guy belongs to the hearing type.. anyway.. back to theory.. i also knew of some medium... like the ones in tibet.. i forgot which monastry but they will have a monk who posses certain connections to some of the deity... and if he pass... they will automatically be another one.. erm.... they call the deity the protector.. anyway.. he does the trance and let the possession thingy every year.. and from what i know.. he very happy due to the reasons i said.. and even kenchara house or something in kl and pg.. the rinpoche.. i dunno him.. i just see his video and stuff... he talk abt divinations before.. but the way he speaks its more like a blessings.. but its hard work just to "keep" communicating with it.. ie.. keeps the connection opens.. but all the "hard" work at the same time generates humongous good karma and so on and leads to "faster" enlightenments... i have read similar stories by ppl from different sects... and depends on the "holiness" of the person.. the "happy to do it" energy is different... i can say those like tibetan monks.. those normal monks.. some even muslim haji (not saying bad things ya.. i just telling base on what i heard/know/talk to).. some of them can actually "see" through you.. and even christians have some who "does" but of coz they wont tell you... and you need to "grill" it out of them these "holy" ppl thinks its a blessing to be "medium".. and as i say.. normal common folks.. if the older ones you ask them.. they feel same.. but as i say.. they might be "conditioned" to be such and they dont wanna create more bad karma by saying otherwise? i dunno.. so........... its an open debate i guess... but overall.. since i seen more "happy" ones from all different "sects" and only the chinese folks common ppl says the opposite.. i will gonna think its a good thing... and if what TS says abt the "compatibility" of deity to medium is right... then it also should falls in my way in saying the only medium whom the deity should be able to be "compatible" with.. is someone of such high karmic values and holiness and devotion... thats my arguement.. of coz i am just a "geek" who reads and thinks too much.. i not pro.. so i could be wrong...

i beg to differ on this as well.. "chance" is also karma's work if you look at it at the bigger picture.. as i say.. the topic of karma is quite huge.. and i told you there are 3 types of karma.. yes i agree fate is not written and could be change.. i use that arguement on divinations.. what are the purpose of divination.. ie.. divine intervention? its so your future can change.. if it cant change.. why bother ask for divination? of coz there are other things but thats a valid arguement for "fate cannot change"... therefore karma still important and chance/good luck/bad luck.. this is extention of karma.. should i explain...hmmm... its very long....... sigh.. anyway.. summary is 3 types karma.. and chance is an extention of it.. why certain ppl meet certain "fate" or chance... its coz of previous karma he needs to resolve.. he can resolve or not.. can escape or not... depends on his current available karma.. if he did good this life.. and accumulated certain amount.. even if he meets the accident which is due to previous karma.. either this life or previous life... he can still survive.. ie.. miracle bla bla bla.. btw.. miracle is also an extension of karma... thats why i say the karma topic is very huge.. lemme put your questioning mind into gear.. why in a bad situation.. lets say... 9-11 case.. why did some ppl "die".. some "escaped" unscratched.. and some with injury or disability.. and why "all those ppl" are there at the certain time certain place? coincidence? i dont think so.. and thats what set me off to find the answer.. and i found them in the topic of "karma"

i answered this above.. but importantly.. i still wish to highlight is that the way "they" see things.. i believe is very important.. and as i mention.. there is 5 types... some like your sifu might only have one.. and coz of how he "sees" his life... maybe thats why he only got one... i seen ppl with more than one.. erm.. usually the "more" type he possess.. the more holy in a way.. but you cant measure "holy" nor judge "how holy" a person is.. so.. i gonna say "enlightened" or compassionate here the more compassionate one person is... the more "spiritual ability" they possess... and the more happy they are to "help" us... hope you get the meaning.. and most of "these" highly "compassionate" ppl thinks its a blessing..

on another note.. i tend to differ on the "look" at your past life story.. i understand what has been done is done.. we cannot change it... but on the topic of karma... or "self" in this case.. another long story but i gonna use summary.. what are this "self" we are talking about.. if you believe in reincarnation... what is being incarnated... if you dwell into that.. then the reincarnated "thing"... or most ppl called "self"... how is this "self" like... do you understand this "self"? and the list goes on.. long story short... to understand this "self".. some back "travelling" is needed... see what this "self" has done.. what trouble or habit it had form.. whats the sorce of it and by knowing it.. you can "remove" the habit now and for future life.. improving one "self" for next life and eventually to the path of enlightenment... erm... if i need to go any deeper i believe its gonna be hours lecture de... so i stop here.. all in all.. i believe knowing your "past".. learning from your "past".. and of coz letting go of the "past" is the key to a better "future".. at least you could "shape" or "create" a better condition for the future... i am talking about multiple "life time" here... but in actual fact.. this can also be applied for one lifetime.. ie.. now... i think i will call it "self-improvements".. whatever you wanna call it... lets debate more

ALL temples will blatantly tell you that requesting lotto numbers is a fool's errand.

Well, the legitimate temples, at any rate.

The only times I have actually seen deities give out lotto numbers was either to raise money for the temples themselves (charity events, to pay for temple equipment and other expenses, etc), or to help devotees who were truly in need of financial assistance (i.e. to pay for medical bills).

There was once an instance where a local gangster blatantly demanded lotto numbers from a Hell deity. The Hell deity provided and the gangster scored, but he met with a motor vehicle accident shortly afterwards; the money he won was barely enough to cover the cost of his hospitalisation, and he remained permanently paralysed afterwards.

ONE temple around my work place offer lotto numbers with extreme graffiti writing, every other weekends, by Second Elder Brother.

After the channelling and scribbling, then the protege (young kids, age 12++) will then stapler it on a bulletin.

Folks gather around and guess what it is.

If anyone tio any prize from the number, they will come back with offerings, from fruits, beer, joss paper, to equipment.

Once a guy tio second price, come back with a marble incense burner, so heavy need 4 guy to pick it up.

wuuuu... nice... makes my heart itchy wanna move and live there.. wuahahahahah... but then again.. it reminds me of something.. once i were dwelling into the topic of "how to know who is real medium"... and how to "identify" who is not real... what are the "limitations" to such "power/ability"... and WHO can do divination.. and WHY sometimes there are some "conflicting" divination... the answer is nice..

This temple, have both shady and true medium I guess.

There is one guy that trance into Ji Gong, which being caught by me playing tricks to show "divination".

There is also other disciple that trance into other Gods being able to help rebuild torn families, calm retaliating children or so on.

But since I am not a believer, when ever I am around during the trance, which I accompany friends/colleagues to go for a purpose, I was teased, even challenged once by Guan Gong

Being chased away from a sintua or temple on the grounds of not being a believer is utterly disgusting, and something I absolutely condemn.

A legitimate sintua opens its doors to believers and non-believers alike, and encourages questions by any and all who are interested in learning about its practices.

A legitimate medium will never work alongside a fake, or engage in criminal conduct.

I think the reason why you were not made welcome there is now quite obvious - they do not want you probing too deeply into what are obviously fraudulent practices on their part.

The temple had two sides, one for the Hell deities, one for the Heaven deities.
Both side have a few disciple which able to trance, which give me the first question: Is it normal that a medium can trance both side?

The Ji Gong story is quite funny actually. This temple had a weird "tradition", whenever the medium "wanted "trance for Ji Gong, it will make something like an announcement to notify the neighbourhood. Then they will bring their children to the temple for blessings, to cure sickness, to calm shocked emotion etc.

Sometime, the Ji Gong will drink with the neighbourhood, all sort of liquor, which he can drink really a lot, according to the folk, this is because of his divination. (五加皮，青竹酒，Blue Label and sort). One time, because that I'm standing close, he order me to fetch his drink, and serve him and his buddies. When he chanted YUM (drink in Cantonese), other than really drinking it, he using his fan and long sleeved robe, seemingly pouring the liquor into his sleeve.

I some how stunned, and stared for more than 5 sec and I think he noticed. Ever since, come the weird hostility.

Then one day, a new disciple wanted to try to trance, and temple's men in charge (庙祝) ask by stander to help, I being curious then go help too. Inside, a Second Elder Brother and the former mentioned Ji Gong is there helping the new disciple. Whipping long whip, chanting something I don't understand, using joss stick to air-writing charm and so-on. However nothing much happens. The new disciple only breath harder and harder, shivers and rocking his chair.

Then the Ji Gong Kneel down and pray out loud, asking help from God-Who-Know-which-God he is praying too. Then he throws a poe (掷筊), then he looks at me at saw your aura (气场) is not compatible with the disciple, saying that I doubted and do not believe in God and until the point I think the humiliation is enough, I left.


The Guan Gong one is an even scarier drama.

The medium for Guan Gong is some how related to the medium of Ji Gong (Brother-in-laws IINM).

One day, he trance into Guan Gong, and start wielding his Guan Dao, and then in a very movie-ish motion he pointed his Guan Dao at me and yelled "How dare you face me and not kneel" (何方竖子面圣而不跪？)。 He then walk towards me in a very stompy fashion. I was genuinely scared and stunned, mind goes blank directly.

I knew the Guan Dao was not knife sharp, but it has been sanded down at the edge, and it weight ~10kg.

After three steps, the Guan Gong stops, stomp his Guan Dao and laughed "Brave kid, I let you go this time." (小子大胆，今放尔一马)

And yes, the Guan Gong speaks in Classical Chinese.

question 1: is it possible a medium can trance both side?
answer which i believe (of coz i not belong to their sect): *i actually typed a long page but after reading i decided i talked out of topic a lil so i re-write again*.. the answer is yes and no.. but simple answer.. No.. one person can be body for one deity... one person can only have affinity for one.. and with the characteristic and compatibility thingy to allow the diety to enter... it is a bit "specific" so usually only one for each person..

question 2: can a temple have more than one deity?
answer: yes.. you can have a few ppl inside who can perform such act.. and it can be from different "groups".. ie.. like your case.. heaven deities and hell deities.. it could also include others..

question 3: is your experience with ji gong funny? can that be real?
answer which i think: real or not... chances are that particular one is no.. a medium will not "reveal" himself to be real.. and much less announce or notify... they just do it when the time comes.. when it comes... yes.. you can "invite" them to perform certain things certain days... but there are limited "exceptions".. mostly are on the spot.. the drinking part? thats normal i guess.. if memory serves me right he do drink a lot.. and eat certain stuff he shouldnt be eating.. long story actually so i gonna spare you that part.. the method he used to "cheat"? erm.... in my memory he can really drink a lot lor.. if he really ji gong i doubt he needs any tricks like that.. so i still feel funny lor.. and to be "hostile" to non believer.. well.. if its really ji gong we are talking about.. he never bothered if you believe him or not.. he just enjoy what he does and he do plays tricks but not in that kinda hostile way.. as TS say.. i dont believe any true practitioner would mind if you believe it or not.. they do to serve and to make others life easier/happier.. it doesnt matter believer or not.. although some act requires constant "doing" of certain things and therefore require some faith.. but you arent even asking them to do something for you.. so it shouldnt affect you or your presence affect them.. so there is definitely some funny stuff going on.. but hey.. i just a nerd.. what i know right?

It is actually pretty common for a medium to channel both Heavenly gods and Hell deities. In fact, you seldom, if ever, see a medium who channels Hell deities alone.

My teacher channelled Elder Brother, Second Brother and the Heavenly god known as Lord Zhang/张公圣君, whom I will post about later.


Quite standard procedure, really, for a sintua or temple to announce to its local parish when certain gods are being channelled. This is usually done in the temple's early stages, however; over time, word of mouth amongst the temple-goers plus between temple-goers and laypeople, becomes sufficient advertisement.


I can't say I've ever heard Ji Gong, or even ANY deity, for that matter, speaking in Cantonese before - trance mediumship is very much a Hokkien and Teochew tradition.

The presence of a non-devotee or non-believer should not interfere whatsoever with how a trance progresses. We often had such people attending our temple feast days and celebrations out of curiosity, and no issues or problems were encountered.

Glad you pointed out the whip, though; it's a very important ritual tool in Chinese folk religion, and I will explain about it thoroughly in due course.

Deities normally converse in an ancient, rarified version of dialect that is very difficult for a modern-day devotee with no knowledge of classical languages to understand. I know I certainly didn't, at least not completely. Oftentimes, a temple committee member or assistant specially trained as an interpreter must translate for the benefit of the consultee.

Lord Guan has an air of overwhelming masculinity and might, but he is a benevolent character and will not behave in such an arrogant or rude fashion. In fact, never in my entire sintua involvement have I seen a deity demand that devotees pay him respect.

If anything, what you describe only serves to reinforce my conviction that this temple is inhabited by conmen.

Who is Lord Zhang?





Lord Zhang (张公圣君), also known as Fa Zhu Gong or Master of the Way (法主公), is, to cut a long legend short, a mystic warrior who does all kinds of awesome things, ranging from slaying demons to healing the sick and controlling the weather.

His skin is permanently blackened from a fight with fire-wielding demons; the cobra wrapped around his arm is the transformation of a 30-foot magical serpent that he tamed, and turned into his pet. Whenever needed, he can transform the cobra into a ritual whip, which can dispel any evil, particularly evil spirits that have possessed people. The Seven-Star Sword that he wields is also a tremendously powerful weapon.

The legend of Lord Zhang gave rise to the use of a special ritual item, based on his cobra - the fa suo/huat soh (法索) or ritual whip, shaped to look like a snake. If a ritual is to be performed in an area, a medium or other ritual practitioner will crack the whip in or around the relevant space to dispel evil and bless the place as a form of preparation. Those who are possessed by evil spirits may be bound or struck with the whip during exorcisms. The whip is considered to be a sentient being, and is treated with appropriate respect.

wow... nice info.. thanks.. and i am sorry.. looks like i am wrong again.. i thought one medium one deity only.. hmmmmmm.... looks like i still dunno a lot of things.. good to know and learn that.. then does that mean "any deity" also can posses the medium? erm.. what is the "criteria" for the deity if there is any to enable them to posses?

Hello Wolves , often a medium is "shared" amongst a few deities. He will usually have 2 main deities from the heavenly and hellish realms.

To quote , medium A would have a heaven main deity , shan cai tong zi as well as a deity from the hell realm , 7th dian tua dee ya pek.

Any deity can possess the medium but of cause there are some deities which do not go into mediumship , like , the Jade emperor , The three pure ones aka san qing , Buddha. Reason I am not sure why.

Criteria , deities often possess the medium to conduct consultation sessions for devotees to solve their worldly problems as well as some deities possess them to dispel evil lingering around or onto the devotee in question.

I hope I have cleared your doubts.

This post has been edited by sales.convenience: Jan 10 2015, 11:52 PM

Hi Nacht.

I have heard so many versions of origin of nine emperor gods but what would think true orgin would be depicted here


http://www.nine-emperorgods.org/legend/


My question is isn't Tan Lang and Po Jun regarded as bad stars?
If so why do we pray to them?

Hi Energy, the information as displayed in the link you've mentioned is generally accurate - the Nine Emperors correspond to stars in the sky, as do most of the gods in the Taoist pantheon (the sintua/folk religion pantheon, by comparison, consists of gods who largely used to be human beings).

Tan Lang and Po Jun are not willfully bad/evil. In fact, they probably do not know that you exist at all.

If the heavenly bodies/constellations corresponding to your horoscope are positioned in opposition to certain other stars (e.g. Tan Lang and Po Jun) during their orbits/paths across the sky, the resultant conflicting energy can exert a negative influence over you. You can undergo rituals to counteract this negative energy; these rituals are often termed as rituals to 'placate' or 'appease' the stars that conflict with your horoscope (e.g. 'appeasing Tan Lang/Po Jun'), but such a term would be incorrect for the reason I outlined above - they are not evil, and are not consciously out to get you.

The above concept is central to Tai Sui worship, of which I will speak more in due course.