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 The Official Lowyat.NET Sintua Thread, A thread on Chinese folk religion.

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SUSredisthcan
post Jan 1 2015, 02:01 PM

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QUOTE(loud @ Jan 1 2015, 11:48 AM)
Thanks again for the nice pic. notworthy.gif

Here is a more challenging question...drumroll...

As far as i know, the heaven and hell concept in eastern religion is not eternal, yet people keep praying to the same deities with the same fashion.
Isn't it the time to expect some old deities to retire or take new rebirth?
As for Nezha, aren't he suppose to grow up already? laugh.gif
Most deities are described as remaining the same age they were when they attained immortality or enlightenment. Which is why Na Zha, for instance, is consistently depicted as a seven-year-old boy. They do not reincarnate, as they have escaped the cycle of death and rebirth.

Some practitioners are of the opinion that cyclical changes do take place amidst the Chinese folk religious pantheon - there are certain Lord Guan followers, for instance, who believe that he has taken on the mantle of Jade Emperor. But they are the minority; to most sintua devotees, the pantheon is static. This static nature is not necessarily as simple as one might think, though; keep reading.

It is entirely possible for a deity to retire for parts unknown, or even to spiritually elevate beyond the reach of us and our world. However, spiritual 'echoes' of said deity may continue to reverberate through space and time even after he or she has departed, these 'echoes' being capable of manifesting as 'residual copies'. Therefore, even a departed god would be capable of continuing to manifest their influence, particularly if belief in them is strong. In such cases, it can seem as though they never left at all, and the status quo therefore remains more or less unchanged.
SUSredisthcan
post Jan 1 2015, 04:28 PM

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QUOTE(fantasy1989 @ Jan 1 2015, 04:04 PM)
wow..nice thread biggrin.gif
I'm glad you like it, fantasy.

Anything to add or ask?
SUSredisthcan
post Jan 1 2015, 08:04 PM

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QUOTE(tension_fedup @ Jan 1 2015, 07:36 PM)
TS, can u tell me story about ''hell gate'' ?

Last time i watch guai tan. The story is about ''tai pak gong'' bring the tv host journey to hell gate.. Seem interesting..
The Gate of Hell, the Gui Men Guan/鬼门关, is precisely what the label suggests. It is the main entrance to the Netherworld, where all souls must undergo spiritual cultivation and/or punishment for their sins. Legend has it that the gate is situated under one of the old salt mines in Feng Du County. Feng Du is the necropolis of Chinese folklore - the City of the Dead.

怪谈 is a show you really should take with a pinch of salt. I'm familiar with the episode of which you speak, however, and can vouch for the authenticity of the featured temple, which is in Penang.

Taking living individuals down to Hell before their time is up is a VERY risky business, however, and is seldom (if ever) performed unless authorised, and for a very good reason. It can result in serious injury or even death to the human participants. The Hell deity in the episode almost certainly just MADE the host feel as though she was down there, rather than actually take her soul on a trip.

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SUSredisthcan
post Jan 3 2015, 09:41 AM

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QUOTE(jeckyl @ Jan 2 2015, 11:09 PM)
nice tread. just an edit on the order of names for the 8 immortals. It should mention anti-clockwise from the white bearded gentlemen.
My error on that one; I've amended the post. tongue.gif

QUOTE(jeckyl @ Jan 2 2015, 11:12 PM)
just finished reading the thread. It is interesting as I worship only heavenly deities. Never knew there are more widespread deities. I thought only sinseh and those performing last rites worship the hell deities. I stand corrected.
There are deities of all kinds, my friend, specialising in all sorts of different things.

The Hell deities deal primarily with death and afterlife-related matters, plus the subduing of troublesome ghosts and other supernatural beings. We who privately worship them aren't all THAT common, admittedly, although we certainly do exist. Most of us either have lines of work that are linked to the Hell beings in some way (e.g. undertakers, morticians, palliative care/critical care providers) or otherwise have an affinity for them (e.g. received assistance from them at some point in time).
SUSredisthcan
post Jan 3 2015, 09:56 AM

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QUOTE(patienceGNR @ Jan 3 2015, 03:30 AM)
Hi

I'm not sure how to address you TS

I have a few questions, does having sintua eliminate bad luck?

I mean, according to a medium, the Guan Yin in my home has 'ran away'. Since you're quite knowledgeable in this field, perhaps can you enlighten me on this occurance?
Hi Patience, call me Nacht. 'TS' sounds so... impersonal, lol.

As I've mentioned, there are different gods who specialise in different things. Gods who deal with matters of luck and prosperity include wealth gods like Tua Pek Gong/大伯公 and Cai Shen Ye/财神爷, and the 'paymaster' type Hell beings such as Jin Qian Bo/金钱伯. One can approach any of the aforementioned regarding such issues.

A consecrated/activated/blessed statue can lose its power if not worshiped properly, neglected or if whatever protocols pertain to it are not adhered to (protocols may differ from deity to deity). Ensure that the medium is reputable, then get them to rectify the issue by either re-activating the existing statue or replacing the statue with a new one.

A statue of, say, Guan Yin, should be consecrated/activated/blessed by a medium who channels Guan Yin or, in the absence of this, a medium who channels a subordinate deity whom Guan Yin has issued the authority to perform consecrations on her behalf.

Installing a deity in one's home is something that requires commitment, faith and relevant purpose; it should not be done if any of these three qualities is lacking.
SUSredisthcan
post Jan 3 2015, 01:14 PM

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QUOTE(Raikkonen @ Jan 3 2015, 10:33 AM)
Morning happy.gif

Me not chinese too happy.gif

What I respect most about these old folk beliefs/religion (not just chinese folk in particular but in other races as well) where a man cannot easily touch a girl unless they're married.

It was similar elsewhere all over the globe.

As time goes by, many did not follow them (the rules) no more.
Hail the old traditions happy.gif
Stephen Chow's 'A Chinese Odyssey' adapted the sintua concept correct?

Chinese folk religion is quite misunderstood these days, especially among the younger generation. Many youngsters barely know who they are praying to, or why. I'm hoping that avenues like this thread will serve to educate them better, at least a little bit.

If you're referring to the 1995 two-parter, yes, I absolutely LOVE that film. Most adaptations of Journey to the West neglect the fact that the Monkey King can be very dangerous, wild and unpredictable when he wants to. They overlook the fact that he was once a feared rebel, who held even the most powerful Heavenly troops at bay.
SUSredisthcan
post Jan 3 2015, 03:27 PM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Jan 3 2015, 01:06 PM)
Hi Nacht
Is the road side praying/favor seeking ' a proper:act' according to your sifu teaching? What are the repercussion if it has gone wrong?
Hi Energy, there is nothing wrong at all about stopping by wayside shrines or temples and paying your respects there. If said places are isolated or rarely visited, the gods enshrined within might even see this as a nice gesture on your part, and smile upon you. But of course, to pray merely in the hope of obtaining blessings from the gods is not a good attitude to adopt.

Bald-facedly asking the gods for favours, particularly selfish favours born of greed, is very poor form. You can expect such requests to be ignored outright. If you are deemed to be particularly undeserving, some sort of admonishment might very well take place.

A virtuous person in genuine/dire need of help who approaches them, however, is another story entirely.
SUSredisthcan
post Jan 4 2015, 02:01 PM

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Here is the story of the Black and White Brothers (the original pair, at any rate), if anyone is interested.

Once upon a time during the Song Dynasty, there were two constables who worked at a magistrate's yamen in Anxi Province. Their names were Xie Bi An/谢必安 and Fan Wu Jiu/范无救. Orphaned from an early age, Xie and Fan were childhood friends, stuck up for each other and joined the police force together. They were as congenial as actual brothers, and were famous for being upright, capable officers of the law who were absolutely incorruptible and would always catch their man.

There came a day when the magistrate dispatched Xie and Fan to apprehend a gang of vicious bandits. Fan, always eager to impress Xie, tried to apprehend them alone. Unfortunately, he was captured, tied up and thrown into a river to drown. Xie rushed in, killed the bandits and dived into the river to save his friend. He was too late, however; Fan had already succumbed. The heartbroken Xie chose to hang himself rather than live on.

As hanging cuts off the blood supply to your face and kills by suffocation, Xie's ghost is deathly pale and has a protruding tongue; as drowning victims are bloated from swallowing water and have blue-black complexions from lack of oxygen, Fan's ghost is bloated and has bluish-black skin. Upon their arrival in the Netherworld, the Ten Judges, impressed by their devotion to their duty and their loyalty to one another, ordained them as Chief Constables; they now help the City Gods to collect the souls of the newly dead for processing and judgement.

Xie and Fan wield magic items in order to assist them in carrying out their duties. Xie carries an enchanted fan, that can draw out a living creature's soul if waved over the being in question, while Fan carries enchanted chains that can restrain the living and the dead alike.

Written on Xie's hat is the inscription 'See Me and Prosper'/一见发财, while Fan's hat bears the inscription 'Omnipresent Peace'/天下太平. These were originally meant to be ironic slogans, given the fact that one normally encounters them when one's time is up. But they also refer to the fact that Xie and Fan may occasionally reward living beings whom they cross paths with, provided of course that the individuals are deserving people. This has given them the nickname of 黑白无常鬼, or Black and White Unpredictable Ghosts. '无常' additionally refers to the impermanent, fleeting nature of life, in keeping with how the two brothers are beings associated with death and dying.

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SUSredisthcan
post Jan 5 2015, 07:15 PM

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Who is the King of Ghosts?

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Da Shi Ye/大士爷, the Venerable Great Lord, also known as the King of Ghosts (大士鬼王), is one of the most fearsome Hell deities, if not THE most fearsome. Originally a vicious demon king who was the holy terror of the spiritual realm, Da Shi Ye was subdued by Guan Yin, the Goddess of Mercy, subsequently converting to the cause of good and becoming her disciple. This did not entirely quell his ferocious nature, however, and Guan Yin found him a job that would allow him to exercise this characteristic in a constructive manner - she found him a job as the commander of Hell's soldiers, including beings such as the Black and White Brothers and other ghostly troops.

Worship of Da Shi Ye becomes very widespread during the Seventh Month - the Hungry Ghost Festival. It is during this period that the souls serving penance in Hell are temporarily set free for a month's reprieve, and Da Shi Ye keeps his glinting eye on these prisoners, ensuring that they do not harm human beings or escape. In accordance with this belief, large paper effigies of him are erected in temple grounds, cemeteries and other strategic areas where the wandering spirits are said to frequent.

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Da Shi Ye's fierceness is legendary. Any and all who offend against him or defy him are sure to be destroyed. Even his own followers fear him, as well as some of his superiors. There is only one individual who can quell his savage temper, and this is, of course, Guan Yin. Take a close look at a statue of Da Shi Ye, and you will see a small figurine of Guan Yin sitting or standing upon his head - she is there to quell his excesses and ensure that he does not go overboard.

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SUSredisthcan
post Jan 5 2015, 10:27 PM

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QUOTE(Brusky @ Jan 5 2015, 10:19 PM)
Hi Nacht,

I bought a Buddha bust made from wood and Crystal cube laser engraving "Guan Gong", and I display them in my display cabinet. is it ok to display them as ornament? am I being disrespectful? 
Hi Brusky, a statue of a god that has not been consecrated can most definitely be used as an ornamental piece. Treat it respectfully (e.g. not bring it into a toilet, not allow it to be marred/vandalised, not allow it to become dirty or grimy) and you'll be fine.
SUSredisthcan
post Jan 5 2015, 11:06 PM

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QUOTE(Brusky @ Jan 5 2015, 10:37 PM)
None of them is consecrated and I think is proper if I gave it away so others can consecrated and used it as an object of worship.
That's very altruistic of you. rclxms.gif

I'm still hoping that more people who are familiar with Chinese folk religious practices will come into this thread to participate. Which is not to be disparaging of everyone else who has posted so far, of course; for people who are not of the faith, some of you are asking really intelligent questions. Keep the queries coming!
SUSredisthcan
post Jan 6 2015, 01:56 PM

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QUOTE(Wolger @ Jan 6 2015, 01:49 PM)
nachtsider

Great thread TS. It's something useful to find references like this in English, a bit hard if you're non-Chinese speaker.

keep for later studying.
No problem, Wolger! I want to make this a useful resource for practitioners, mere enthusiasts, and the casually curious alike.

While I will update the thread with information provided of my own accord, it is your questions and comments that should ideally serve as fuel for the fire.

Feel free to ask about any of the gods or ritual practices, and I will answer your queries to the best of my ability.
SUSredisthcan
post Jan 6 2015, 02:48 PM

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QUOTE(iwubpreve @ Jan 6 2015, 02:43 PM)
this consider Taoism?
Not quite.

Sintua/Chinese folk religion contains a number of elements that Taoism does not agree with, such as mediumship, and worships a number of gods that Taoism either does not acknowledge or pays only very slight lip service, such as the Monkey King, Datuk Gongs, many of the Hell beings and Guan Yin.

It does include a number of Taoist concepts such as Tai Sui worship, yes, but interprets them in its own way.

I would regard sintua and Taoism to be like Judaism and Christianity - similar but not the same.
SUSredisthcan
post Jan 6 2015, 03:06 PM

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QUOTE(iwubpreve @ Jan 6 2015, 02:58 PM)
in my hometown my grandma house, there are few statue, God of prosperity, Judge of Hell, Kuanyin on top, then 5 kiddo at bottom then behind got 1 kitchen guardian kind of stuff. Taoism, no?
If Guan Yin is there, my answer would have to be 'no'.

By 'five kiddos', I think you are referring to the Five Ghosts/五鬼将军. They are childlike ghostly creatures who act as assistants and runners for the higher ranking Hell beings.

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SUSredisthcan
post Jan 7 2015, 10:17 AM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Jan 7 2015, 09:51 AM)
What is the purpose of self piercing and mutilation during the trance of a temple medium?
Another good question. nod.gif

Self-mutilation is usually performed only for very specific purposes.

The first purpose is empowerment. Certain ritual items used for self-mutilation correspond to certain deities. Pic #1 shows an example - a set of nine spikes, corresponding to nine Hell soldiers known as the Nine Yin Warriors/九阴军.

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When a medium wishes to imbue himself with the power of the Nine Yin Warriors for the purpose of conducting a ritual, he will pierce his body with the spikes (see pic #2).

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The second purpose for self-mutilation is to shed divinely imbued blood. When a medium is in trance, the divine essence of the gods they are channelling courses through their bodies, and by extension their bodily fluids, too, such as blood, sweat, tears and so on. Self-mortification is done for the purpose of drawing the energised blood, which can then be used as a magic ingredient to activate ritual items and prepare talismans with; it can also act as a repellent against demonic creatures or other evil beings. The objects used to self-mutilate are special ritual weapons such as axes, swords, spiked balls and so on.

Pic #3 shows a medium mutilating his tongue to draw blood. He is channelling a Hell deity (Elder Brother) and the weapon he is using is a special abacus with a blade fixed onto the top frame - Hell deities use abacuses to calculate people's sins and merits, plus their estimated lifespans.

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Pic #4 shows a ritual fan that has been energised/activated by being daubed with drops of blood.

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SUSredisthcan
post Jan 7 2015, 10:55 AM

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QUOTE(JunJun04035 @ Jan 7 2015, 10:20 AM)
DISPLAY divinity, i guess?
In comparison to the reasons I've outlined above, this is of little importance.

The gods do not necessarily bother if you believe in them or otherwise.
SUSredisthcan
post Jan 7 2015, 04:10 PM

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QUOTE(Wolves @ Jan 7 2015, 11:24 AM)
hmmm.. that is more like a secondary purpose.. not the real or primary purpose.. imagine if you want to be medium for say monkey king.. what do you think the medium should be like? a monk? or normal folk who wore like taichi master clothes? it would be normal to mimic the monkey king as much as possible.. the hat with two long "tail" thingy and at the min his long staff.. if not how would the monkey king know that is the "medium" for him? so.. "recognisable" medium is one.. second is these "gods" sometimes have their own "special" stuffs/weapons that they carry or is linked to.. it might be a source they "draw" their ability from.. like the guy above mention.. the 9 yin warriors.. or the abacus which that particular deity carry and use most and perform his duty with.. just putting it in logic ways.. if they need it in their time and "realm" to perform their duty.. if they "cross" here... its natural they need it to do their "stuff" right? i think thats what the guy trying to explain...

lets put this into current world perspective.. if you were to cosplay... say kirito in sword art online.. what do the cosplayer need? imagine the cosplayer is the medium.. well.. thats roughly the same idea... the cosplayer needs to be a guy since kirito is a guy (of coz there are crossdresser but hey.. we are talking about the respect and norm here).. he needs his two swords (items kirito used in the anime) and a black attire.. as close as possible to the anime right? only then you know he is cosplaying as kirito.. in the ritual aspect.. the medium plays a bit different role.. instead of "acting" like the person cosplayer wanna mimic.. the medium is trying to "invite" the spirit/god to enter into him.. so he needs to look as "close" to the deity as "humanly" possible... of coz if the spirit is monkey king you dont expect the guy to be hairy like a monkey or what.. just as humanly possible.. they are good "spirit/deity/god".. they will forgive the shortcomings and they aint gonna punish you that bad if you dont look exactly like them... just do their best to look like them will do... and unlike the cosplayer where they try to "act" like the anime character.. medium invites the spirit to perform duty the spirit's "power/ability/duty" whatever the ritual is about.. so they need their "stuff/weapon/whatever they need"... get it? and since the mutilation/weapons/method is the spirits own "stuff" it wont affect/harm the medium as he is protected by such spirit/god/enlightened beings.. i think thats the main reason behind it.. of coz.. the "show" power part as i said is more like the "side effects" of such act where ppl goes... "wah.... kena poke till like pin cushion still ok... wah... bleed the tongue and bla bla bla still no problem..".. as i say.. those stuff they do wont harm the medium since they are protected by the spirit/deity/god and those items or stuff is theirs in the first place.... so.. dont lar say they show off tongue.gif not good you know tongue.gif
This is actually a very insightful post, Wolves. I'm curious, haha - are you involved with Chinese folk religion in any shape or form, or do you at least have a cosplay background?

Mediums often dress up as they deities they are channelling; it is often said amongst those in the trade that the more authentic the resemblance provided by the costume and makeup, the smoother the trance will proceed, as the medium effectively becomes a duplicate physical body for the deity - a second skin, so to speak.

That being said, the gods do not select mediums on the basis of physical resemblance, lol.

Here is a particularly authentic-looking Monkey King medium.

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SUSredisthcan
post Jan 8 2015, 08:36 AM

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QUOTE(Wolves @ Jan 7 2015, 05:23 PM)
sorry.. no cosplay and no sintua or chinese folk involvement... i am what they call a scholar or study geek.. i study anything and everything and i do come across the topic of "religion" and did some "study" in it.. and yes.. the closer the "resemblence" the smoother the "transition"... i think some ppl on the second page mention why no xtians or other religion who "experience" or why certain ppl are "selected" being the medium... and i remember you also mention your sifu is chosen coz previous life he not very good or something and as punishment... he was chosen... erm... i would like to challenge that notion/thinking... base on what i have read... actually... its a bit long as it involves a few theories... =.="
While you are right in outlining the importance of karma, Wolves, it is not the sole force governing a person's lot in life. The role of chance/entropy can and does play a significant role, as well. Bad things can unexpectedly happen to good people, and bad people can have runs of good luck.

Nor is anyone's fate set in stone or pre-written, either. You are not a puppet dancing to a pre-written script; you write the script as you go along.

While it is flattering to ponder the possibility of a link to the Hell beings on my part in a previous existence... nah, I wouldn't necessarily count on it, lol. At any rate, delving into one's prior existence is not an advisable activity. The whole point of spiritual cultivation after death, plus reincarnation, is letting go of the past while retaining the lessons learned from it. Digging too deeply or clinging onto what is rightfully dead and gone might lead to serious conflicts, such as people trying to settle old scores. The world might potentially descend into chaos.

Good post, though, man. You're a very astute guy. rclxms.gif
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post Jan 8 2015, 08:48 AM

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QUOTE(Wolves @ Jan 7 2015, 05:37 PM)
anyway.. base on the last paragraph above.. i believe your guru/sifu was a very holy and devoted sintua practitioner in his previous life.. it can be seen by how he do stuff.. i am sure he is kind and helpful and very compassionate towards others.. and base on the theory i said.. these were brought forward from previous life.. and to be able to be "chosen".... in previous life.. he must be one hella holy fella that even the deity so like him and hence can easily "go into his body" and so on and so forth.. and he acquired blessings and protection from the deity... hence.. i think you should "study" more on that... i believe its a blessings and not a punishment... smile.gif thats my two cents..
My teacher would have appreciated the praise, Wolves, although the following post by Energy is actually closer to his situation, plus that of many other mediums:

QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Jan 8 2015, 12:26 AM)
One particular lady medium that I know actually said despite how many times since young in her life that she has turned away and attempted to deny her 'duty' to become the medium and help people. Her fate and her life was so bad each time she turned her back, she was divorced, she has a son that she has to let him addressed her by name and not  by being called 'mom' , her other livelihood and businesses failed. She had a very difficult childhood that remained difficult to her adulthood.

She has said at the end , she has to concede and surrender to her chosen path, not by her own choice but by the deity that has chosen her and she has mentioned that she has been a very bad person in her previous lives so she has to do this until her bad deeds of former lives are all equalized by being medium to let Deity help people who sought for help through her.

Being a medium is hardwork... it is not a chosen profession but rather hard works bestowed on those who are born to have such destiny to 'pay back' in such ways.
Every medium I know has led a hard life, and all have stated, in no uncertain terms, that their spiritual service indeed is a form of penance for sins past and/or present.

As for acquiring blessings and protection from the deities that they channel, the truth of the matter is that while the deities do look out for their mediums and offer a certain degree of protection, trance mediumship is actually a very risky activity.

While karmic debts are the prime criteria for medium selection, the deities are careful to only choose those who are sufficiently strong of mind and body. The human body is not rightfully built to withstand the strain of channelling a god. Question a medium about how he or she feels directly after a trance, and the answer you will get is invariably: "I feel extremely tired."

This strain is an unavoidable occupational hazard, just like how radiation exposure is an occupational hazard of working in a nuclear power plant. Although the gods try to limit the duration of trance in the interest of the medium's health and safety, stress, strain and damage, both physical and mental, are sustained each time. The cumulative effect will eventually show.

Many mediums consequently die young. My teacher himself knew of this risk, yet cheerfully and bravely went about his duties. He was not quite 55 years old when he passed away.
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post Jan 8 2015, 03:12 PM

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QUOTE(EnergyAnalyst @ Jan 8 2015, 09:55 AM)
asking for help (health recovery, peace, career /businesses' obstacles removal or subduing ) is ok, i guess, but asking for money , wealth, kena number, Kena loteri is too much, some temple actually blatantly tells you 'we are not that kind of place' shakehead.gif
ALL temples will blatantly tell you that requesting lotto numbers is a fool's errand.

Well, the legitimate temples, at any rate.

The only times I have actually seen deities give out lotto numbers was either to raise money for the temples themselves (charity events, to pay for temple equipment and other expenses, etc), or to help devotees who were truly in need of financial assistance (i.e. to pay for medical bills).

There was once an instance where a local gangster blatantly demanded lotto numbers from a Hell deity. The Hell deity provided and the gangster scored, but he met with a motor vehicle accident shortly afterwards; the money he won was barely enough to cover the cost of his hospitalisation, and he remained permanently paralysed afterwards.

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