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 The Official Lowyat.NET Sintua Thread, A thread on Chinese folk religion.

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Sl1984
post Jun 28 2017, 01:41 PM

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Hi Nachtsider ... I use to pray in melaka temple, have been to the one in jln ipoh area.

Any other places that you can recommend in kl area. wanna go to pray.

This post has been edited by Sl1984: Jun 28 2017, 01:42 PM
audreyreiko
post Jun 28 2017, 02:30 PM

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QUOTE(nachtsider @ Jun 22 2017, 05:13 PM)
Unless the spirit of Karpal Singh manifests through this statue and can confirm his identity plus his divinity, this is nothing but a disgusting and blasphemous attempt to use his name and image for selfish purposes.

Surely deity Karpal Singh would have appeared to his family members and his DAP comrades first, or in a Sikh gurdwara, rather than in some shady Chinese temple with a dubious reputation.

His family should sue.
*
Oic, thanks for the clarification.

So all the while I thought it started with people worshipping first then came the identification by the deity. So it's the other way around.
SUSredisthcan
post Jun 28 2017, 02:36 PM

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QUOTE(Sl1984 @ Jun 28 2017, 01:41 PM)
Hi Nachtsider ... I use to pray in melaka temple, have been to the one in jln ipoh area.

Any other places that you can recommend in kl area. wanna go to pray.
*
Are you looking for a place dedicated to a specific deity?

If so, who?
SUSredisthcan
post Jun 28 2017, 03:14 PM

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QUOTE(audreyreiko @ Jun 28 2017, 02:30 PM)
Oic,  thanks for the clarification.

So all the while I thought it started with people worshipping first then came the identification by the deity. So it's the other way around.
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That's right.

It's the other way around.
Intergalactic
post Jun 28 2017, 05:11 PM

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At last, I've come to the last page at this point.

Must praise Nacht for the effort to keep here alive since 2 years ago.

I have a number of questions to ask actually.

However, last few pages from here a number of discussions related to Datuk's had been discussed.

I just like to give my point of view.

I personally don't really think majority of 'Datuk' are just human spirit.

Before Islam entered the Tanah Melayu in 15th Century, the Malay communities were largely animists and also Hindus, Buddhists.

They believing in existence of spirits (supernatural elements, animal spirits, elves, fairies, djinns, demons) in everything, for example like rock, tree, hive, fire.
That has explained the Malay worshiped those hives or those strange looking rocks and so on.
And remember that those mentioned spirits/entities had already owned that place long ago no matter it was inhabited by human or not.

In order to chase off or take over that place original 'Owner' or 'Datuk', that human spirit need to be really powerful enough to do that.
You can imagine a human spirit needs to go thru a fight with the thousand year old spirit (reminded me of the 人间道's 树精姥姥 vs 小倩) to own that place. If they are Muslim spirits, I honestly don't think their 'God' or 'Creator' will lend a hand for them on that purpose.

Even if they got a warrior terror like 'Guan Kong'... as in Islam, life is a test and a preparation ground for the afterlife.
As one dies, the 'God' will resurrect and judge every individual and will entitle them either in heaven or hell. So how they are able to 'escape' from their 'Mighty God' and to become a local place taiko?

Honestly I felt quite perplex when I saw those 'Datuk' in Songkok or in Malay figure rclxub.gif

IMO, 'Datuk' absolutely existed but they are the earlier mentioned spirits (supernatural elements, animal spirits, elves, fairies, djinns) and I always pay my respect to them.
dp82
post Jun 29 2017, 12:05 AM

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My cousin always c Datuk ran back to his "house". Like normal to him lol
SUSredisthcan
post Jun 29 2017, 05:40 AM

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QUOTE(Intergalactic @ Jun 28 2017, 05:11 PM)
At last, I've come to the last page at this point.

Must praise Nacht for the effort to keep here alive since 2 years ago.

I have a number of questions to ask actually.

However, last few pages from here a number of discussions related to Datuk's had been discussed.

I just like to give my point of view.

I personally don't really think majority of 'Datuk' are just human spirit.

Before Islam entered the Tanah Melayu in 15th Century, the Malay communities were largely animists and also Hindus, Buddhists.

They believing in existence of spirits (supernatural elements, animal spirits, elves, fairies, djinns, demons) in everything, for example like rock, tree, hive, fire.
That has explained the Malay worshiped those hives or those strange looking rocks and so on.
And remember that those mentioned spirits/entities had already owned that place long ago no matter it was inhabited by human or not.

In order to chase off or take over that place original 'Owner' or 'Datuk', that human spirit need to be really powerful enough to do that.
You can imagine a human spirit needs to go thru a fight with the thousand year old spirit (reminded me of the 人间道's 树精姥姥 vs 小倩) to own that place. If they are Muslim spirits, I honestly don't think their 'God' or 'Creator' will lend a hand for them on that purpose.

Even if they got a warrior terror like 'Guan Kong'... as in Islam, life is a test and a preparation ground for the afterlife.
As one dies, the 'God' will resurrect and judge every individual and will entitle them either in heaven or hell. So how they are able to 'escape' from their 'Mighty God' and to become a local place taiko?

Honestly I felt quite perplex when I saw those 'Datuk' in Songkok or in Malay figure  rclxub.gif

IMO, 'Datuk' absolutely existed but they are the earlier mentioned spirits (supernatural elements, animal spirits, elves, fairies, djinns) and I always pay my respect to them.
*
Nobody needs to fight or displace anyone.

The human spirit and the nature spirit merely assimilate, and become one and the same.

So seamlessly, in fact, that it becomes indistinguishable where one begins and the other ends - where who came first.
SUSredisthcan
post Jun 29 2017, 07:20 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jun 28 2017, 11:36 AM)
i see, never seen neneks before, are they related to the datuks?

also you say datuk has range limit, so means the original residence of the datuk must be near the area you build the hut? he cannot move too far from his own residence but can be done with talisman? if go overseas bring talisman can work?

also why some datuk are in gold & green some got robes like the one you showed? bigger statue means higher rank & more power?

also what happens if 2 person competitor pray to same 1 datuk?

will datuk fight among datuk? what happens if they do, what happens if a datuk lost the fight?

also, how you gauge the datuk's rank & power? they tell you?
*
As I mentioned, Neneks are the womenfolk of Datuk society. They are depicted as middle-aged Malay women, in traditional Malay female costume (see picture below).

The original residence of the Datuk is usually within the vicinity of where you set up your shrine, yes. He can project power beyond his boundaries through the use of talismans and charms, which can indeed be used overseas.

Gold or yellow robes usually signify Datuks who are of royal lineage and high rank; yellow is the Malay regal colour, after all. Green Datuks are those who are closely linked to nature and the sylvan/forest environment. The centre Datuk in the previous photograph is our principal Datuk, outranking the other two.

If two competitors pray to the same Datuk, he is free to decide which of the two is worthy of winning his favour. Whatever criteria he uses is obviously not mine to say.

Conflict can indeed happen between Datuks. The outcome of such conflicts depends on the nature of the conflict, really. But I can tell you for a fact that deities can be killed.

The Datuk's power is gauged by their efficacy. If they can solve serious or dire matters in a cinch, they're obviously powerful. More powerful Datuks will naturally be ranked higher than less powerful ones.

user posted image
SUSadvocado
post Jun 29 2017, 08:16 AM

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QUOTE(nachtsider @ Jun 29 2017, 07:20 AM)
As I mentioned, Neneks are the womenfolk of Datuk society. They are depicted as middle-aged Malay women, in traditional Malay female costume (see picture below).

The original residence of the Datuk is usually within the vicinity of where you set up your shrine, yes. He can project power beyond his boundaries through the use of talismans and charms, which can indeed be used overseas.

Gold or yellow robes usually signify Datuks who are of royal lineage and high rank; yellow is the Malay regal colour, after all. Green Datuks are those who are closely linked to nature and the sylvan/forest environment. The centre Datuk in the previous photograph is our principal Datuk, outranking the other two.

If two competitors pray to the same Datuk, he is free to decide which of the two is worthy of winning his favour. Whatever criteria he uses is obviously not mine to say.

Conflict can indeed happen between Datuks. The outcome of such conflicts depends on the nature of the conflict, really. But I can tell you for a fact that deities can be killed.

The Datuk's power is gauged by their efficacy. If they can solve serious or dire matters in a cinch, they're obviously powerful. More powerful Datuks will naturally be ranked higher than less powerful ones.

user posted image
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oic, so how to tell if the datuk still ok or not, and will you know if datuks are fighting? also, possible a group of datuks fighting? so normally datuk can exist for eternity if no fight?

btw those hut that are slightly levitated, must build small staircase up to the hut?
SUSredisthcan
post Jun 29 2017, 08:24 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jun 29 2017, 08:16 AM)
oic, so how to tell if the datuk still ok or not, and will you know if datuks are fighting? also, possible a group of datuks fighting? so normally datuk can exist for eternity if no fight?

btw those hut that are slightly levitated, must build small staircase up to the hut?
*
Conflict can be large or small, but they usually happen out of mortal sight, with no way of us knowing the outcome unless the Datuks themselves decide to reveal what has happened.

A god can live forever if not killed, yes.

Little staircases are not mandatory for elevated huts (I've seen plenty that lack them), but they do look nice.
SUSredisthcan
post Jun 29 2017, 08:26 AM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jun 28 2017, 11:37 AM)
hi, i think he meant a datuk near another god, maybe Tu Di Gong, or another god. they can stay together in harmony?
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Sure, why not.

My teacher's place has Tu Di Gong along with the Datuks, and they coexist quite peacefully.
SUSredisthcan
post Jun 29 2017, 11:19 AM

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Afternoon stroll.

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sales.convenience
post Jun 29 2017, 03:15 PM

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QUOTE(nachtsider @ Jun 29 2017, 11:19 AM)
Afternoon stroll.

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damn , tua ya's hair made him looked ghostly
Sl1984
post Jun 29 2017, 03:19 PM

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Hi Nachtside,

Im Looking for 大二爷伯temple in kl area,

Use to pray in melaka but dont know anywhere in kl have,

Any good can recommend?
Intergalactic
post Jun 29 2017, 03:56 PM

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QUOTE(nachtsider @ Jun 29 2017, 05:40 AM)
Nobody needs to fight or displace anyone.

The human spirit and the nature spirit merely assimilate, and become one and the same.

So seamlessly, in fact, that it becomes indistinguishable where one begins and the other ends - where who came first.
*
The question arises:

People tend to use the Islamic rules such as no non-halal foods, no alcohol, no filthy animals, etc as reference when describing the Datuk (Malay).
Because people assuming that Datuk is a deceased Malay person's spirit whose faith in Islam and thinking that the Datuk still practising it, am I right?

Then why are people simply ignored some very important concepts in Islam, like a Muslim MUST ONLY serves to one God (Allah S.W.T) and there is no other than Him? Islam strictly prohibited deification of any human being. According to the Islamic teaching without question, the establishment of "partners" placed beside God is a great sin. The God in Islam (Allah S.W.T) may forgive any sin sorely except for this one.

So will a deceased Muslim person's spirit defy the teaching which he has practised for his entire life before and after his death?
I personally don't think so. Therefore, I highly doubt that the Datuk is a deceased Malay person's spirit.

This post has been edited by Intergalactic: Jun 29 2017, 04:36 PM
vendetta87
post Jun 29 2017, 05:13 PM

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audreyreiko
post Jun 29 2017, 06:34 PM

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QUOTE(Intergalactic @ Jun 29 2017, 03:56 PM)
The question arises:

People tend to use the Islamic rules such as no non-halal foods, no alcohol, no filthy animals, etc as reference when describing the Datuk (Malay).
Because people assuming that Datuk is a deceased Malay person's spirit whose faith in Islam and thinking that the Datuk still practising it, am I right?

Then why are people simply ignored some very important concepts in Islam, like a Muslim MUST ONLY serves to one God (Allah S.W.T) and there is no other than Him? Islam strictly prohibited deification of any human being. According to the Islamic teaching without question, the establishment of "partners" placed beside God is a great sin. The God in Islam (Allah S.W.T) may forgive any sin sorely except for this one.

So will a deceased Muslim person's spirit defy the teaching which he has practised for his entire life before and after his death?
I personally don't think so. Therefore, I highly doubt that the Datuk is a deceased Malay person's spirit.
*
This is an interesting question, I've also wondered the same. It's like the nature of the non-halal, no alcohol rule of Datuk is very contradictory because if the Datuk is Islam, then he cannot be the same entity that would become a deity, and if he has become a deity, why would he still believe in Islam because what he is now is against the very teachings of Islam. Unless Sufi Islam is something entirely different?

Hope this does not come off as offensive, I'm just curious.
SUSredisthcan
post Jun 30 2017, 05:25 AM

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QUOTE(Intergalactic @ Jun 29 2017, 03:56 PM)
The question arises:

People tend to use the Islamic rules such as no non-halal foods, no alcohol, no filthy animals, etc as reference when describing the Datuk (Malay).
Because people assuming that Datuk is a deceased Malay person's spirit whose faith in Islam and thinking that the Datuk still practising it, am I right?

Then why are people simply ignored some very important concepts in Islam, like a Muslim MUST ONLY serves to one God (Allah S.W.T) and there is no other than Him? Islam strictly prohibited deification of any human being. According to the Islamic teaching without question, the establishment of "partners" placed beside God is a great sin. The God in Islam (Allah S.W.T) may forgive any sin sorely except for this one.

So will a deceased Muslim person's spirit defy the teaching which he has practised for his entire life before and after his death?
I personally don't think so. Therefore, I highly doubt that the Datuk is a deceased Malay person's spirit.
*
QUOTE(audreyreiko @ Jun 29 2017, 06:34 PM)
This is an interesting question, I've also wondered the same. It's like the nature of the non-halal, no alcohol rule of Datuk is very contradictory because if the Datuk is Islam, then he cannot be the same entity that would become a deity, and if he has become a deity, why would he still believe in Islam because what he is now is against the very teachings of Islam. Unless Sufi Islam is something entirely different?

Hope this does not come off as offensive, I'm just curious.
*
You are analysing the situation from a Sunni Muslim's perspective.

As I have mentioned earlier, Sufi Islam works on somewhat different principles - principles that Sunni Muslims have long considered heretical.

I would suggest that you go do a read-up on Sufism to understand the ways in which it differs from the mainstream Islam you are evidently more familiar with.

This post has been edited by nachtsider: Jun 30 2017, 05:28 AM
SUSredisthcan
post Jun 30 2017, 05:27 AM

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QUOTE(Sl1984 @ Jun 29 2017, 03:19 PM)
Hi Nachtside,

Im Looking for 大二爷伯temple in kl area,

Use to pray in melaka but dont know anywhere in kl have,

Any good can recommend?
*
As previously stated, Tua Li Ya Pek are more likely to be found in Hokkien majority areas.

I do not know of any legitimate Tua Li Ya Pek temples in KL.

Your best bet is Klang.
SUSredisthcan
post Jun 30 2017, 05:41 AM

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QUOTE(sales.convenience @ Jun 29 2017, 03:15 PM)
damn , tua  ya's hair made him looked ghostly
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Well, he IS a ghost. wink.gif

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