I still don't get the part why you have to mention lazarus though o.0. The only thing that's similar is both died. In fact, all of the characters in Bible died except for one or two which could no longer be found and there's also Jesus too.

I don't see the connection you're trying to make from lazarus to uzzah @.@. I am frankly speaking confused except for the part about grace. I know that when you make a mistake, there's always grace of God. But I thought the topic we're discussing at hand is whether an action which is stated as a sin can be used for a good intention is right/wrong. That's before the grace of God sets in provided that the particular action is wrong. If it's right in the first place, then there's no aftereffect where God's grace need to be discussed.

I don't see any possible end where we both can agree overall. To simply just have faith and not doubt at all is just blind faith to me, I can't put my life just on those statements alone, I need more of whatever it is to believe and please do pray that I'll find it xD. Anyways I do appreciate all your lengthy replies and your time and effort in this ministry (I assume is this forum). They are very biblical base, but they are not the answers I am looking for.


Ya you're right. I am a second generation Christian. =). I've been a part of worship teams where the pastors themselves are trying to create a smooth flow for the Holy Spirit to flow. There's nothing wrong with that but I somehow feel it's manipulative to manipulate the environment in such a way (although I know that they are out of good intention). I've felt so many "emotional kicks" during worship that I feel it's just the music that makes us behave and feel something special but is not presence of God to me.

I've started to embrace doubt and start questioning because I wouldn't be able to give satisfying answers to non-believers as they question. Because often times the answers given by pastors/leaders/christians in general are just not enough or just one sided without any logical explanations (some there aren't, but I believe most are and can be logically explained).

I did enjoy these discussions and will take a hard look at how I read the Bible to see how could I answer these doubts better.

This post has been edited by amosai: Dec 12 2014, 11:26 PM

I find it weird though.

God has given me so much grace to believe in Him, I don't find it a problem to believe at all.
I've always believe in God as a young child. I didn't need much convincing, neither a need for evidence from scientific or empirical POV.

And yet I keep meeting people like you who has problems believing in God.

I just don't know how to reconcile this weird part, and I know I don't have the power to convince anyone but I know God can.

So I leave his words with you to the best explanation that I can think of.

Yeah I pray that one day, your eyes, ear and mind will be opened in the name of the Son of God, Jesus.

Take care ya.

I guessed you are right. Today I read this interesting article.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/w...judgmental.html

I hope new Christians out there IF they are reading this, please don't lose hope because of some "Judgmental Christians".





Herzlich Willkommen zum oberstimmer christkindlmarkt - literally means "Warm Welcome To Oberstimmer Christmas Market"

Beer lovers should know this place. hehehe..

Its at south of Munich.

But If you look at the complete passage, the main point still come back to the point of being absolutely certain.

In this context, it's not about whether it's going to be real or not but for sure it will happened, only how it's going happened is in question, we leave that in the hands of God, let Him be sovereign in "how" and his timing. Faith is the same as trust.

It's not about seeing God, but the experience , as how Jesus put it in

John 10:38 (NIV) - But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

And if you look at

John 10:25 (NIV) - Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me,

You'll understand why He said that.

Hmmm, Nah, don't think that is idolatry because having Faith and having his word, they are both crucial and essence as how God wants it.

Bible knowledge comes when you meditate on his words. The Words of God is actually God himself. They are both part and parcel of the Christian Faith.

I did not say having faith is a form of idolatry, it's the comfort of being certain that's the form of idolatry. I don't deny they are part and parcel and that's what God wants. But there's an overemphasis, a person can study and know the Bible and loves the story but not the God inside. That's idolatry. Like how the pharises focuses on doing thinga right by the law. Is it unpleasant to God? No. But there's an over emphasis thus becoming an idol. An over emphasis to be secure and comfortable on what is given or stated and following without any questions is also an act of idolatry as the focus is on self comfort rather than with God.

The definition of idol is basically anything that fills the void of the heart that's meant for God to fill.

Frankly speaking, you're in a place where you have no doubts which is good for you. But that's also the reason you can't understand those that has it. You've experienced something that you feel it's God thus you can't wrap your head around someone who does not. Thus defeating the whole purpose of having any sort of discussion as you adamantly rejects another person's view completely. Having doubts about God is a genuine process, a painful one especially to those who resist change. And I believe that if there's a God like in the bible, i believe that He has always welcomed humans to struggle or wrestle with Him without any hesitation. I refuse to accept a statement just because it's simply stated, i refuse to stop thinking and accept it as it is.

second generation christian?

It means someone born into a christian family, as opposed to a convert.

Actually what you've describe here is the symptom of having head knowledge but no heart revelation. Head knowledge means you know about God but you don't know God. Heart revelation comes from having a consistent pursue for God and that only happens when you have a relationship with him. So Yeah I know what you mean. You're describing this part that as a part of a problem you're going through right now.

But The comfort of being certain is actually where God wants you to be at. That is the home objective of Faith anyway.
It's not idolatry.

It's explained like this:

In Hebrews 3:7-11

7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ 

then see verse 12

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

This is about the context of Faith. The key to operate this is explained in verse 8: Don't hardened your heart. That's all.

Hearing his voice in verse 7 here means hearing from the words you read in the Bible.
In Verse 11 Enter into God's rest, that's the same meaning of Resting in God or Trusting in God. You can only rest from the position of Faith or in your definition; being certain.

And verse 14 is the evidence of what I've said about being certain.

14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Holding on firmly is just tenacious faith.
Remember the part I shared earlier that it's not about experimental faith but simply believing till the day we die? This is it.

Then Read the entire chapter of Hebrews 4. See the point in verse 10 & 11 where it says.

10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,e just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Why it's so important to enter into this rest? And why do you think the result is devastating that if you don't get into this position, you'll perish from disobedience. Disobedience comes when you don't really believe. That is the context when God sent the 12 spies to scope out the land of Canaan as explained in Numbers chapter 13. Out of the 12, only 2 believed. The other 10 clans perished due to disbelieve and fear. Caleb and Joshua entered the promised land and symbolically they rested.

I'm showing you scripture because that is where it starts and how everything connects. It is the word of God after all and it's where we can understand what his will is.

This rest from their work is synonym with resting from struggling/labour. Struggling can be applied to struggling with God. Man wants to trust in something they can work at when God actually just want you to just trust in Him. The same predicament that you're in.

So to be secure and comfortable on what is given or stated and following without any questions is actually Faith in essence, it's not idolatry. You got it reverse.

Actually not really. The problem with the Pharisee is that they don't practise what they preached.
With their mouth, they say they love God but in their heart and actions, far from it. They actually made it harder for people to be saved with their own rules of traditions when God intended it to be easy by way of Faith.

Actually I do understand where you're coming from. You're trying to get to God through your 5 senses when it must start from the point of Faith. The 5 senses will come. Your physical experience will come. But you got to take the first step by the way of Faith first. The initial step has to come from you and it has to be consistent. It may seem like Blind Faith initially but God will not leave you to be contented as blind. This I can assure you.

I would go as far as to say He is the God as how the Bible describe Him to be. God is faithful to his words. He did not lie about what he promised.
How do I know this? It's happening in my life. I'm one of the walking testimony. I'm sure there are many others as well.

Bro I didn't have this "super" Faith automatically handed over to me on a plate. I've gone through your struggle. There was a point in time when I stared at the walls wondering where is God. Why He didn't answer my prayers. See I believe in God but I didn't know what moved Him or how to get Him to answer me.
How this struggle was resolved, part of the answer is above. There's another part. Maybe to be continued tomorrow.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Dec 13 2014, 09:51 AM

GOD's grace is multidimensional. It means, first you have to imagine a dice. A dice has 6 faces. And each face has unique explanations. If i want to explain about 100% meaning of a dice, then the listener must understand all 6 faces of dice as best as i know.

A dice represent GOD's grace. Imho, you know only 1 or 2 faces. not all 6 of them.

Does GOD's grace has 6 explanations ? it's more actually. GOD's grace it's not a dice. I just use dice to explain the richness of GOD's grace.

1. GOD's grace saves human kind from sin. I think this part you know already
2. GOD's grace direct your thinking to GOD as a good GOD. Not the punisher ones.
3. GOD's grace gives you provision, health, wealth to make you content
4. GOD's grace gives purpose in your life.
5. GOD's grace gives you empowerment to complete anything GOD's want.
6. GOD's grace gives you access to spiritual realm without cost you unnecessary things.
7. GOD's grace gives you confidence to come to GOD when you screwed up (aka made mistake)
8. GOD's grace gives you faith, to trust without empirical proofs
9. GOD's grace helps you think positive regardless whatever happen in your surroundings
10. GOD's grace gives you enough money to tithe, to benefit your self.
11. GOD's grace becomes more when sin is more.
12. For reader of purpose driven life book from rick warren, GOD's grace is the only option to make your purpose driven life 100% match with GOD's perfect will
13. GOD's grace is the only reason you can do miracles
14. GOD's grace gives you abundant knowledge to know do spiritual warfare
15. GOD's grace makes you overcomer. David can kill goliath because of GOD's grace.
16. GOD's grace reduce fear. This is one of the way to measure whether you are operated in GOD's grace or not. How much fear you have in your thoughts or feels ?
17. GOD's grace makes you blessed.
18. GOD's grace leads you from victory to victory.
19. GOD's grace will make you productive. It's not making you counter productive.
20. GOD's grace enable you to rest, regardless fear / worries happens.
21. GOD's grace will tell you what to ask, so it will be given.
22. GOD's grace will give you something called GOD's presence. A condition where spiritual presence of GOD manifest deeper than usual. Mostly happen in pentecostal churches during services only.
23. GOD's grace gives you ability to discern things, which one from GOD, which one are manipulative (even it is in good faith).

These list still growing, but the basic questions, do you get the depth of GOD's grace up to these few points ?

How about uzziah ? in short, he does not have GOD's grace.

As you are to concern about uzziah, my advise is not to equalize amosai = uzziah. It's counter productive.

empowerment is the key. You do have GOD's grace. But it's not enough. Just ask more.

as you mention "holy spirit to flow". i assumed you are pentecostal background.

in simple english, do you have empowerment yesterday ? or you feel defeated yesterday ? that's the easy way to measure GOD's grace.

--- closing, monthly living cost example ---

as closing, let's assume your rental, electric, food and monthly you need RM1000. Monthly RM1000. I think GOD's grace operated in you is only RM100 to max RM500. That's why every month you are short. And you are short a lot, almost 50% from your calling.

uhm how about mine ? i find myself operated around RM1 million. Enough to feed other household even if they costed monthly around RM10k to RM15k.

Using your imagination, can you imagine the rich and depth of GOD's grace in my life, that i can say i have RM1 million ringgit per month ?

head knowledge is just another term.
Do you know why people prefer head knowledge? Because it's safe, it's fixed, it's comfortable. There are also other reasons such as the need to feel superior and other factors too. It's a long list of explanations explaining in detail which I would rather be doing something else than write it all here. I am not going to elaborate more as it's not going to be helpful for either parties. I am not asking why He didn't answer my prayers, I have no deep need for any prayer to go answered as of now. I am asking if there's a God in the first place.

Before someone purchase a car, the person would do all the required research, doubting whether the salesperson is actually quoting a reasonable price and all other information provided. You don't just believe the salesperson. You don't dive in head first without weighing the argument for and against. You count your materials and bricks before you build a house. You weigh the suffering/blessing or benefit/cost before doing something as it should apply to anything. Especially when you're diving in with YOUR ENTIRE LIFE. That's why doubt plays an essential part, you need to doubt what you believe before you can actually assess whether what you believe is true or false. However, the way you see faith and doubt is clearly different from the way I see it. From how I see it, Faith's antonym is Certainty, not doubt.

Frankly speaking, we seem to be on opposite ends of the book as we're clearly both talking about different matters. You emphasize a lot on grace which biblically speaking ya, it's true. I know what you're talking about. God's grace is upon all of us. Whether we receive it or not is the question. But as I was talking about Uzzah, there was no relation to grace. Why do I say so? Because there was no emphasis on it in the story. Did God say anything in relation that Uzzah does not have enough of "God's Grace"? No. But the story shows that when you go against what God has said in spite of good intention, God still abides to the rules He set up thus Uzzah died.

Can you use right/good intention to justify sin? In Uzzah's story, no. Because clearly he died because of it. That's the moral of the story. There was no mention of God's grace.

Now, let's put it in today's context, you cheat/bribe/lie for a good intention. You didn't die. That's where God's Grace comes in when you realize what you do is wrong/sinful. You go to God to repent and for forgiveness.

You're trying to imply that I think God doesn't forgive or tolerate my mistakes as if He is like a human judge that is unable to sympathize and has to follow the law completely. Thus, you conclude that I don't have God's grace as per your closing. I understand He isn't like that, He was able to sympathize with us. IF God does exist as according to the Bible, I know He will catch us with a net of God's Grace. For goodness sake, He sent His Son to die for our mistakes. The cross is more than enough said about God's Grace.

But the matter we're talking about is whether can you use right/good intention to justify sin (whether it's lying/bribing/stealing)? The answer is no looking from Uzzah's story.

This post has been edited by amosai: Dec 13 2014, 11:59 AM

Everyone wants it safe. Just that we guys who have crossed over from that leap, we're telling you, it's alright to leap because it's real.

God has place in evidences or trails of his existence, we as the witnesses of his reality are one of the source, our testimonies.
Answer prayers is also the evidence of God. That is what Jesus meant when he said, at least believe in his works.

I also believe God have not left out physical evidence. Jesus is the evidence.
Jesus is God. He is the physical evidence sent by God the Father as recorded by Historian. My siggy explains it.

Just as much as I believe Galileo was real person even though I've never seen Him.

But I'm telling you, all these may be of no help if you still don't take that first step of Faith. Faith has always been the key and will always be till He comes back.
There's no other way. To find God, it has to done his way. Your way is not going to work. If you're going to say, then it's pointless to even try, I'll just tell you, the way has been given, you just don't want to take it. You want to make your own road. You want to force fit a square into a circle. Well......there's where your problem lies, staring at you, why you can't find Him.

Uzzah.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Dec 13 2014, 12:52 PM

Bro, i here to give you testimony that my mindset works. my way to know GOD works. Testimony is the key. My mindset produces good testimony. regardless what happen to uzzah

i want you to success like me, but unfortunately, your mindset need to change. whatever you wrote above will not make you produce testimonty like me. Cuz like u say, you deserted Christ right ?

I have victorious life, i am an overcomer. Do you want to be like me ? then follow my mindset. ... you need to undone some of what you learned in the past. especially most of christian mindset you have that betray your destiny.

i don't know what you want. Do you want to success like me, or you want to convince me that uzzah sucks ?

you should try pusat injil kelana jaya. It's near brothers car accessories shop. I don't have exact location. Warm people, traditional church, no speaking in tongue, no expensive church gadgets... good enuf for you ?

I guess you're right. I am really trying to fix a square into a circle. I am trying to fix logical steps into Christianity. Somehow, it just doesn't work because Christianity doesn't work that way. I am stubborn, hopefully just for now. I might die trying I guess. Believing there is a God at the end of the day for me is not safe at all, in fact it's more dangerous than no God. A lot of atheist has gone by life questioning the existence of God through logical methods and found God (or rather God found the person). I am still hopeful. I don't want to "just believe". It doesn't work for me as there is another part of my brain that questions its logicality if I simply just believe.


You.... LOL..... I am speechless because of how these conversations are so lopsided with you LOL, unlike the one I have with UnknownWarrior, at least we understand both sides of the argument, you on the other hand is just looking at only your viewpoint. I give up trying to tell you something, you are too fixed on yourself, you don't even look at the story independent of your feelings (or at least try to). Oh well, if you do believe you're victorious, more power to you =).

thanks i received by faith you will be victorious as well.

About logicality ? have you ever think to follow somebody because he is more success than you ? like follow my mindset for example. I do have victorious life. I oso overcomer

I think i found it very logical to follow somebody more successful than mine. You can follow me, and my teaching, if your surrounding sucks.

logic enuf for you ?

to all new christian bro and sister here and those struggling with their faith today

i have a song to share with you hope you understand this song better

Have you heard of Ravi Zachariah?

This guy has been ordained by God for intellectual discourse.
He's a professor and a philosopher.

He may be the material you're looking for.

He has tons of excellent materials in youtube, proving about God.


May want to check him out





Pls take time to check out this videos as I believe it will benefit you.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Dec 14 2014, 05:51 PM

Ooohyes I can vouch for Ravi he's really good. Listened to some of his stuff too.

Why don't you attend DUMC then if you feel more welcome there? It's better to stick to 1 Home Church rather than going around.