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 Kitchen hood and hob, 60 cm hood (under-mount cabinet) and hob

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halcyon27
post Nov 5 2014, 09:09 PM

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QUOTE(Career26 @ Oct 15 2014, 10:36 AM)
thanks for your input. if i go for anything wider than 60 cm, I will lose space for kitchen cabinet. So it's either I compromise on the kitchen cabinet space or the hood. Due to lack of storage space (the unit does not come with a store room), and since I don't do much of the asian cooking style - I thought I will maximise the space available for KC and compromise on the size of hood. And I have used 60 cm hood during my stay in Aus few years ago at a rental apartment - worked quite well, I must say. smile.gif
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Sorry to chime in late. Unless you're in a hurry or i f you've fixed your design on kitchen cabinetry, the following sites might help re-orient on design and space usage perspectives.
BLUM Dynamicspace
Cleanup Kitchen Systems (Japan) Kitchen design reviews (via Google translate) Catalog (via Google translate)

Note that I'm not suggesting you get the exact specs as in here esp the second one. What's more important is you get another perspective of how to organise and plan your kitchen storage and workflow.

IKEA mostly relies on Blum parts for their hinges and hence they do adhere to BLUM's storage philosophy. The European triangle workflow is clearly seen here.

It's ok if it's space is really constrained or you have committed the kitchen cabinetry. Just sometimes if these help re-orient how kitchen storage planning is taken, it might perhaps help enable you to get back more space and then expand your options for choosing wider appliances like the 90cm hood as some suggested. The choices are wider.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Nov 5 2014, 09:23 PM
halcyon27
post Nov 6 2014, 01:09 PM

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QUOTE(Career26 @ Nov 6 2014, 09:31 AM)

--->You nailed it! That's exactly my thought. I am thinking of expanding my choices a little bit more. I made calls to most of the brands I mentioned yesterday and I was told that Rinnai might have a 71 cm or 73 cm gas hob. Also, Fotile has a 73 cm gas hob. So am thinking of considering that and also look at the electric ones which I have never considered in the past. Will update my findings - In the mean time, if you come across anything that will be in line with my requirement, do give me a shout here! smile.gif

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Electrolux in SG have the electric hobs in the sizes you require ie nominal 80cm. There's another brand from Germany also quite popular there. They make units for cooking and also with oven attached.
halcyon27
post Nov 10 2014, 12:55 AM

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The other brand uncommon as it is from Germany but sold in SG is Rommelsbacher. They make portable (like their 120-240V portable cooker), electric oven, kettle, built-in hob (vitro, induction, hot plate), induction plate, etc.

What's innovative in terms of space saving and electrical consumption is their Mini Kitcheners cooker top with oven which comes in 2500W width cast iron hot plates ie retro 1960s style to 3000W modernized Glass ceramic hot plates with tempered glass top. 60cm width chassis and 40cm width oven at 22l volume.

From their manual, it's a 2500/3000W restricted design so that it can retrofit into an existing dedicated 13A powerline minimum or 15A just to be comfortable.

They have a 60cm 4800W 3 way induction cook top with Schott Ceran top. That requires a 20A-25A power socket.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Nov 10 2014, 01:23 AM
halcyon27
post Nov 10 2014, 01:40 PM

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QUOTE(Career26 @ Nov 10 2014, 09:27 AM)
---> Hey, thanks so much for your input. I had a look at the links you sent and also few other individual models of their induction hobs: http://www.rommelsbacher.de/en/rommelsbacher_k.htm

They are induction hobs with low wattage (if am reading the technical details correctly) which would suit my requirement . Unfortunately, they don't seem to be available in Malaysia from the searches that I have done in the internet. Even called a few dealers just then, but none of them have even heard of the brand name. sad.gif

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Doesn't surprise me as our business environment quite insular. Even plumbing stuff sometimes buy down there. We saw it in Tangs Orchard here.
halcyon27
post Nov 10 2014, 04:18 PM

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QUOTE(Career26 @ Nov 10 2014, 03:36 PM)

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Career26,

I don't know but having anything over 3000W requires special planning electrically. That's thicker gauge wiring and there's potential of tripping. Single phase wiring is up to 63A. For hob requirements that require in excess of 6400W, the kitchen has to be on 32A (32Ax240V=7680W). If planning in such a way, sometimes it's prudent to put a separate MCB in the kitchen to isolate trips to this zone.

Otherwise going by Watt limited appliance or gas is one way mindful of the space constrain it presents. I presume you'd either use a table top oven or has a built-in planned?

Assuming ovens are planned for, the good news is there are those that only consumes 13A:
a. Kee Huat Radio's Ovenmate Valencia
b. older 5 to 7 function Rinnai models
c. recent Rinnai 4 and 8 funciton model

I used to own a KHR Ovenmate Valencia and the cooking that comes out of this oven is amazing from grilled chicken, ribs, cakes and pizza. Since the Valencia is only 500mm wide and 675cm tall, it can fit within a 60cm width space with space on either end. If the working surface is 80cm high from the floor then you could invest in a 60cm 3 zone hob. Both can run off the same 32A circuit with the caveat either one has exclusive use or a combination of both should not exceed 32A. Perhaps a lower wattage induction with the oven might solve the issue. In such a set up and if the 3 zone hob is not too deep, open up a rectangular breathing hole to allow heat from oven space to escape.
halcyon27
post Nov 10 2014, 05:04 PM

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QUOTE(Career26 @ Nov 10 2014, 04:32 PM)
---> It's an apartment unit kitchen and does not allow the luxury of having a built-in oven for me. The more appliances I add, the more I will have to compromise on storage space. I don't do baking that much - so did not prioritize on getting an oven. So, I decided to choose what is absolutely needed on a daily basis. The major electrical appliances that I am going to have in the kitchen will be the electric hob (i have narrowed down to only 2 zone with something like 4800 w), a microwave, hood and fridge.
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Hmmm.... ok understand your constraints better now. Well, the Rommelsbacher KML 3001 would do nicely in your case if it could be found here.
halcyon27
post Nov 11 2014, 12:30 PM

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QUOTE(Career26 @ Nov 10 2014, 08:34 PM)
I am going to make a confession - with all this wattage, amps, power, technicalities - I AM COMPLETELY LOST!  rclxub.gif  sweat.gif  rclxub.gif  My search process is based on the following factors:

1. 60 cm
2. 2 zones
3. Low wattage
4. Reasonably priced and reliable brand

Am I still on the right track or am I missing out something ?

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Career26,

Sorry to step on the brakes to back track. You raise a very pertinent point and point 3 here raise some misgivings I have concerning putting the cart before the horse.

To clarify: this place of yours how recent is the development? If in pre-2004, I hazard a guess that they planned for gas cooking using 60cm or domino hob style. If later or was renovated before and has an induction/heat plate/vitroceramic hob before chances are high wattage wiring is in place.

Otherwise to assume the worst, all electrical is shared off a single 13A or 15A line for fridge, hood and other electrical appliances like kettle, toaster, microwave. At best it's two lines 13A and 15A. Even better if provision was made for electrical cooking is 13A and 20-25A.

If it's an old place, I'm guessing that by buying such a hob, that you'll be doing some form of renovation including adding high amp (20A at least) electrical wiring for this purpose. Hence the rest of this is based on this assumption.

If adding electrical point is not considered as part of the renovation, I recommend revisiting the core assumptions above. You can enlist an electrician help do a sanity check.

Low wattage means less than 4800W (20A or 4800/240)? That means it needs a separate dedicated apart from fridge, hood. Because if the development is older than 1990s, chances are unless there was previous renovation (with an electrical hob evident), no one in those days would foresee the possibility cooking with electricity and chances are they have only one 13A point in the kitchen or at best one 13A or one 15A.

Not that I want to spoil your renovation journey but by knowing this in itself beforehand is to be sure that we know where you stand and don't give advice in a misleading manner. Not a problem if the electricals are known - I assume here that by saying low wattage there's something in mind between 15A to 20A. But if you don't yet know, better to sort that out first then you can see for sure what options lies before you.
halcyon27
post Nov 11 2014, 12:44 PM

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QUOTE(weikee @ Nov 11 2014, 12:43 PM)
All incoming from tnb need to use 230v for calculation. Tnv officially supply 230v no longer 240v

I will use 220v for calculation, because the incoming always have variance. Is best to over spec than having problem later.
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weikee, thanks for the tip.
halcyon27
post Nov 12 2014, 06:53 AM

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Career26 - glad to be of help. For new development, well it's easier to check if you still have the brochure. Most would state bill of materials listing type of materials for floor, walls, windows, door, plumbing points, AC/lighting/fan/water heater points. Often, some will state how many electrical points at each location. Not many will state of these electrical points per location, how many are rated at what amperage (13A, 15A, 20A, etc.). Then confirm with developer as what S'aimer suggested if can add electrical point if necessary. Good luck and looking forward to your renovation journey sharing.


halcyon27
post Nov 12 2014, 12:29 PM

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QUOTE(Career26 @ Nov 12 2014, 11:46 AM)

---> I am not sure why they are not mentioned in the brochure - but during my inspection at the unit after collecting the key, I saw they do have water heater and aircond points.

Aircond points ( living and 3 bedrooms)
Water heater (2 bathrooms)
Washing machine is to be placed at the yard. Nevertheless, I will get my electrician to do a sanity check as pointed out by another forum friend here. Thanks smile.gif

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Air cond points between 13-15A depending upon HP.
Water heater point usually 20A.

Perhaps their brochure too brief and missing a few things.

Get electrician to confirm the max amperage supplied to your MCB if it's 32A or 63A? With the latter you have some leeway with not so often encountered nuisance trips.

Nusiance tripping means AC on, water heater on and suddenly by turning on an extra appliance say hair dryer, the circuit trips at one DB (fuse) point.

With 32A alone, I'm afraid that's very restricted into what additional high wattage equipment that can be used without the possibility of nuisance tripping. For that you can explore with management if it's feasible to upgrade your MCB.

BTW, some of Cleanup kitchen storage concepts fit your layout. They were meant for small places and their storage options shines where space is limited. Just that they are not cheap shakehead.gif But if your carpenter or kitchen specialist can do what they can do on budget...wow...can I have his contact?

Good luck.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Nov 12 2014, 12:31 PM
halcyon27
post Nov 13 2014, 04:03 PM

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Looks like it too. That's good. Career26, it looks like last two slots are spare 20A. If you can, take a photo of your DB box with the fuse clearly shown and post it here so we can see and compare that with the DB box layout plan.
halcyon27
post Nov 13 2014, 11:36 PM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Nov 13 2014, 10:18 PM)
Wow, do you really need that high watt? That freaking high consumption. Using gas cheaper?

6mm is enough.
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QUOTE(Career26 @ Nov 13 2014, 10:21 PM)
umm...I am just being a silent reader of the question and answer here as I know nothing technically. I may have to compile all these questions / comments and check with my electrician.
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In some sense I agree with ozak. Consult your electrician and ask especially if nuisance trips are likely and how to mitigate if possible. It could be such a way that ozak describes but if it still trips, cooking will be disrupted. Your hood can be off the 13A shared with fridge and microwave. Hood normally don't consume as high power if use LED lights. It's the cooker that has the high power requirement. That's where you have to decide pending upon electrician's advice if you still want to add dedicated power line for electrical hob.

One suggestion by electrician is if it's still decided to go with electric cooking is 3 phase. Normally this would be asked by developer before hand. I actually did that in my very old condo. But to add 3 phase after this... I don't know if such an option is possible since for my case I added it while they were still under construction.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Nov 13 2014, 11:40 PM
halcyon27
post Nov 18 2014, 01:40 PM

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QUOTE(Career26 @ Nov 17 2014, 10:14 PM)
---> Could you please explain that? I have no clue what you are saying and why you are asking if the MCB - all are C16. I am no expert in this electrical stuff and you will know that if you had read the thread from the beginning.  rclxub.gif
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kimsim is referring to the circuit breaker. It's 16 amperes (16A) which means it will distribute electrical current to the end points up to 16A before breaking the circuit. Overcurrent greater than it's rated Amperage can burn the wires and cause an electrical fire.

Going by traditional 240V, 16A will admit up to 240x16=3840W. At 230V, then 3680W.

Lighting and fans usually 6A but I've seen it go up to 10A in certain properties.

Socket point for appliances normally rated at 13A. Some points that share sometimes allow for 15-16A relying on the fuse at the appliance socket to protect overcurrent.

Kitchen by right should use 15A if sharing between fridge and toaster microwave. Some owners prefer dedicated ones to prevent nuisance trip on the circuit.

1HP AC and oven usually 15A. Water heater and 1.5-2.5hp AC usually 20A. Washing machine with dryer sometimes 20A as well but dryer alone 15A although newer ones uses 10A-13A.

The main distribution circuit coming in to the residential dwelling is either 32A or 63A (1 phase) or 100A (3phase). There are uncommon ones as well esp for larger requirements like offices also.

The overloading is what causes tripping but this is a safety characteristic of the circuit breaker to prevent overcurrent that causes electrical fire.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Nov 18 2014, 01:42 PM
halcyon27
post Dec 27 2014, 10:51 AM

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QUOTE(sonyu @ Dec 27 2014, 10:05 AM)
Hi halcyon27,

For 20A, that means it can go up to maximum 4800W (240x20) right?

So let's say my hood is 230W and the owen is 2.7kw, that means they are safe to used together with 20A because the total power only draw about 3000W?

My wiring man advised me use 20A for the owen alone. Is that a particular reason to do so?

Thanks.
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Usually, electrician sound practice is to engineer with safety margin. Ovens range from at least 2400W (older Rinnai 5 and 7 function oven as well as Kee Huat Radio Europa ovens are rated for 13A socket use) to over 4000W (Range cooker with Electrical ovens like Smeg, Elba, Delonghi, etc). There could be some that draws more. None will know before hand what actual product will be used. The ball park is prevalently within this range. I'd follow the electrician's advice and weikee's tip to use 230V as basis for calculation as well as to note what thickness of wiring that will be used which is crucial. The rated amp of the circuit breaker is half the equation governing how much currant the downstream appliance can draw. But the crucial hidden half is the wire through which the current conducts over. It must match or exceed the circuit breaker amp rating. Put it another way, the circuit breaker should not exceed what the max wattage of the wiring it protects.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: Dec 27 2014, 11:07 AM

 

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