Assalammualaikum, Im happy this thread has become quite popular

Semoga kita semua mendapat balasan pahala dari Allah SWT dan dapat membantu memperbetulkan misperception ke atas Islam

I do not understand why ppl become extremists, i would never do. The caliph state system is long gone, it's history, so stop trying to bring back the past that you know wont happen. If killing is the way they do it, justifying that this is the same like old times holy war... They're just plain wrong.

Sad thing is that many malaysians, including some in this forum, agree with establisbing such thing, condoning all these killings. It's sad. Future in malaysia is bleak. I reject pas with their extremist mind. What is more important to me, is that we all, regardless of religion, can live equally in harmony.

And god give us brain to think. Question everything. I dont simply accept things.

And i need to add, some ustaz are quite extremist minded as well... Why are we following them? We shouldnt. No matter what his title is. Ustaz or ulama. Those are plain titles.

This post has been edited by hirano: Jan 11 2015, 11:29 PM

Debate on sensitive religious matters should be conducted in the Real World Issues section.

Yes I believe this thread is not to debate on religious issue. Just sharing knowledge only.

... i guess lowyat is for hentam islam since my post on other religion here seems to be removed.

What does it say? at office now, no speaker.. (boss not in yet, ngulor kejap laa )

Different community. I am sure this thread will be bombarded with Islam hater if move to RWI. Besides,..

yes, ..it's more to sharing our diverse opinion on and in Islam.

What was it that you talked about? Mind PM me?

I believe you are Muslim, yes? Then you should know since young, we are told the stories of the old times, sirah nabi, para sahabah, etc etc. We were told the "sacred story" not the "historical story". Meaning the stories were romanticized, dibunga2kan, even their dialogs were very theatrical. People today still romanticize those old times, that's why. They believe that's what we should be.

It's true what you say: Even us here, look around. How many still regard the Khulafa Al-rasyidin as holy men, examplary muslim? They don't even know those men fight each other, use force and aggression and tricks to gain political power, and they're not even the religious leader of their people!

If we know the historical story, we would not romanticize the ancient times. We will still have high respect for them, yes. But we will think logical too, with modern mind.

How many Malaysian Muslims still hate Jews even innocent child jews, for no apparent reason, apart from what their ulama told them? Countless. They're afraid to question, because they think questioning those ulama means questioning Islam. They're blinded by their Islam.

some of us here asking if we should punish apostasy to death or not. a true follower of islam must believes in quran and hadith right? hence the video disscussed what should we do to apostasy. the answers were vary, the quran states its allowed to kill when they degrades islam. say that one married to a muslim woman then after a while he turned back apostasy and ripped all the benefits and go against islam. this is the one we should kill.

another one is what if he apostate by his own? and not spread lies/libel? it suggested that we should just ignores but of course we are not redha on the act of apostasy.

That's why it's essential to use our rationale. We should understand the context of the text, not just follow literally. How can anyone in their right mind condone killing SIMPLY because someone choose to leave Islam?

I'm still learning, because I don't agree we should kill that easy.

Another belief is that many of these rulings were revealed during the ancient time, war time, war between religions. So "apostates" here means enemy in war. It was actual wars between religions that time, so turning against Islam means you are joining the enemy's side of the trench, literally. That's when reaction such as killing is permissible. This make more sense to me...

This post has been edited by notoriousfiq: Jan 15 2015, 04:26 PM

yup, youre right. we should learn how to tolerates and always remember one of His characteristics is that He is the most forgiving and merciful.

and verse about quran (4:89) continuous with next verse (4:90) Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you.

that make sense, but Allah tak cipta quran untuk satu era sahaja. bear in mind that god's words tak terikat pada masa macam kita manusia ni. bagi aku kita mesti selarikan islam sesuai dengan peredaran zaman.

Pada pendapat saya, islam tak seharusnya diselarikan dengan peredaran zaman.
Sepatutnya peredaran zaman diselarikan dengan islam.
ia sama seperti islam tidak sepatutnya dipolitikkan tetapi politik diselarikan dengan islam.

http://selasihhijau.blogspot.com/2012/05/7...isaat-saat.html

I'm not saying Quran is only applicable in one era. What I'm trying to say is, when we read the text, we should also know the context of the text, not follow it simply literally.

I agree with you, we shoud selarikan, which is what we reformist muslim is trying to call for, reinterpetation of the text. It's about INTERPRETATION. Quran is always applicable, in all era, but in which interpretation?

But bear in mind, we call for this, but doesn't mean it's not happening yet, reformation within Islam has been going on since forever.

Kenapa tidak? Kita bukan mahu "ubah Islam", tapi memperbaharui pemahaman, intrepretasi quran dan hadis. Quran dan Hadith itu masih sama. Dan ini bukan benda baru, memang pemahaman telah dan sedang diperbaharu. Islam yang dipraktis sekarang tidak sama exactly dengan Islam beratus2 tahun dahulu, meaning praktisan Islam sudah sememangnya "berubah".

Mungkin ada yang terkejut dengar ini, Islam berubah. Perkataan "berubah" itu mengejutkan, dan akan ada yang tidak setuju. Bukan saya kata Islam itu berubah, cuma pemahaman itu diperbaharui dengan timbulnya minda moden, negara itu negara ini, fatwa itu fatwa ini, mazhab itu mazhab ini, pembaharuan perlahan dalam beratus2 tahun.

To me, you sound like those who call for the caliphate system to be back in this modern times. Am I correct?
If so, I disagree with that.

can you please give us some examples of these 'perubahan'?

can you recommend some ustaz/ustazah/ulama that is not extremist?

Like I said, instead of perubahan, it more of a pembaharuan, renewal. We are not "changing" Islam.

If you want renewals, look at the fatwas being issued everyday. The differing ideas of modern muslims vs old muslims. Introduction of "new" system such as democracy, civil law.

what kind of 'pembaharuan' in specific? imo, what you are saying is too general.

Tell me, what is the caliph system? What is majlis syura?

If you're looking for specific, for a small black-white change, means you don't understand the overall concept of reformation. I suggest you go read up about it.

Oh come on, now.. google stuff, people! Let's read more, I'm still learning too.

This post has been edited by notoriousfiq: Jan 12 2015, 12:12 PM