Guys,

In Buddhism, I understand that a spirit can take up to 100 days to re-incarnate, is my understanding correct? So after 100 days, why to family members still pray for the deceased (e.g. during Ching Ming, Hungry Ghost Festival, etc) when the spirit has already re-incarnated?

Thanks!

Buddhism and Chinese culture is not the same thing..
Buddhism comes from India and believe in reincarnation.
Ching Ming, Hungry Ghost Festival is Chinese culture/festival.

Your understanding is all messed up ...you mix Buddhism with , Confuciousm and Taoism.

hi TS , u sure ur understanding is the truth ?

how u even sure all that u know and understand is true?

Just like Buddhism, the core teachings of Confucianism and Taoism are purely philosophical.
Those weird rituals are probably distortion from contemporary great great grandfather traditions.

If the deceased was accorded with a Buddhist funeral, we would assume that the person is Buddhist isn't it? So in that case (strictly Buddhism), can we safely assume that during Ching Ming and Hungry Ghost Festival, worshipping of ancestor with food and burning of offering means nothing because his / her spirit has already passed on and re-incarnated? Both Buddhism and Taoism do believe in Hungry Ghost festival isn't it? But ceremonially, how do they differ?

Ermmm, did I say that my understanding was ultimately correct? I added the question "is my understanding correct?".

This post has been edited by pastacarbonara: Aug 9 2014, 09:08 PM

a few already giving you some of their thoughts....
now, my point is , how u gonna be sure that, those u read is the truth?

Hungry ghost festival has nothing to do with Buddhism...its cHinese culture, possibly Taoism (since Taoism is originated from the Chinese). But I dont want to assume...ask someone else who knows Taoism.

i won't say i am an expert in Buddhism but Buddha is an indian. are you saying he observe the ching ming tradition and hungry ghost festival? obviously not right.

are you clear now about the confusion you are in mixing Buddhism and Chinese tradition?

Didn't you learn this in school?

If TS knows it takes 100days... where did TS learn from, why TS never to consult the source of his learning? You call this 'Serious Kopitiam'? It's not I don't want to help but it looks like TS is deameaning religious believes.

This post has been edited by KoChun: Aug 9 2014, 11:09 PM

Well that's the whole point of this discussion now isn't it?

Actually, I have gone through Wikipedia.



Well, Buddha Himself, may be an Indian or Buddhism itself originated from India but I think the principles of his teaching has nothing to do with him being an Indian or from India or not right? It's not that I am confused but this is what I observed. Read my reply below please.

I think you're assuming a little too much. It's deemed demeaning because I asked a question? What I am asking here is based on what I observed. Now, a while ago, a person whom was very close to me passed away. We all agreed on Buddhist funeral for the deceased. With that. nuns came every night and we recited prayers. On the last night of the ceremony (the night before the casket leaves for the crematorium), we burned some paper effigies. That made me wonder, why do we need to do these as clearly Buddhism believes in the concept of reincarnation after 100 days. Source here clearly mentioned that spirits are reborn 3 days, 21 days, 49 days or 100 days after death, and in some cases even 7 years. Apart from the burning of paper effigy, other aspects of the funeral has also been mixed with other practices, such as choosing of the right columbarium spot, etc.

With that said, I am wondering, why do we put effort into treating the deceased are a living entity when clearly Buddhism teaches that the spirit will re-incarnate.

I may not be believer or practitioner of Buddhist or Taoism faith but I do observe these rites when it is required of me to do so. In fact I am heading to Nilai tomorrow for some prayers.

This post has been edited by pastacarbonara: Aug 9 2014, 11:47 PM

condolence for ur lose. coincidentally, some one i know died yesterday morning , accident, die on the spot.

what i think is that doesn't matter 3 or 21 or 49 or 100 day, reborn what day is non of our business, especially those that still live.
it mean more to those monk/nun as they need to perform the ritual or ceremony correctly as per what previous people passed down.

all these tradition and religion ceremony stuff is just purpose to ease those who still live's sorrow. Treating those who die as they still live is an act of sorrow where the living still wish the dead is still live.

As has been mentioned by others, buddhism among chinese, has been mixed with taoism, confucianism, moism, animism, ancestral worship etc. Contrary to popular msian belief, only a small number of chinese are practising buddhist, while majority of chinese here are taoist. They are only buddhist on paper because our government punya stupid forms only recognise buddhism as religion (when in fact it is not) but refuse to acknowledge the existence of taoism.

The ritual of burning of effigies, offerings and etc are all NOT buddhism, just to be clear. buddhism principles advises followers to accept that death is natural, and for surviving members to live and let go. However the practise of ancestral worship, paying respects to the departed is a deeply entrenched cultural practise for the chinese, long before buddhism even reaches china.

One may choose to follow strictly to the knowledge and practise of a devout buddhist, or one may choose not to. After all if one is not a buddhist, why must one subscribe to buddhist principles anyway?

However this is the beauty of buddhism, that is, you are free to choose your way. What Lord Buddha left for us is his knowledge and understanding of the subject matter called enlightenment. He has merely lay down a guide to achieve our own enlightenment and freedom from samsara, freedom from suffering and freedom from cycle of death and rebirth. He does not rule over your life, neither rewarding you for your obedience nor condemn you to hell if you turn your back on him (or his teaching).

Hence due to the liberal attitude of buddhism, it is no surprise that in the course of spreading the knowledge, there are bound to be teachers who would modify come contexts to suit the local populace where the knowledge of buddhism are taught, and hence today you see plenty of variations, and different forms of buddhism around the world. Theravadin, mahayana, tibetan, zen, new age etc. they may differ in terms of practises, rituals, rites, and some even propagated to the realm of mysticism and religionism, however the most basic reason of buddhism remains the same, and that is for deliverance and freedom from samsara.

Hence, whether rebirth is immediate, 3 days,7 days , 100 days or whatever, does it matter? The basic understanding is that death and rebirth occured. And because of death, it caused pain and suffering to the remaining family members and friends. And rebirth occured, because one has yet to achieve enlightenment, due to attachment to cling to life, or to be dragged down by own bad karmas of past. Hence when we are still alive and we have a concious mind, we are provided with the best opportunity and environment to seek and understand dharma (buddhist teachings), to judge and learn, and to make concious decisions that will lead to enlightenment and freedom.

This post has been edited by andrewhtf: Aug 10 2014, 01:02 AM

Samm, is that someone, his name is james?

Real Buddhists, either Mahayana/Theravada don't believe in Hungry Ghost Festival. IMO people who are into Buddhism just do it because of tradition.

This post has been edited by wesleyktr: Aug 10 2014, 01:09 AM

Great answer. And I think you're right. Coincidentally, I found this article here. It says:-


In a way, I think the practice of Buddhism among Chinese is somewhat dynamic or liberal as you've said. I've always had the notion that like other religion or belief, the practice of Buddhism is strictly according to the teachings of Buddha himself.

Thanks for the clarification.

This post has been edited by pastacarbonara: Aug 10 2014, 02:01 AM

if u see those burn paper car or paper money for the deceased means its taoism ...buddism have no such practice ...

Since when Wikipedia is the ultimate source of all matters related to religion. It's full of errors and misinformation. Some people even mentioned VIOS and CITY are C-Segment cars matter of factly...LOL.

Yes. So i guess ur one of the biker that know him too?

We're from the same town. I only rode once with him last year, coming down from genting at midnight. Didnt seem to be a fast rider to me, so the circumstances of his accident is hardly believeable... But then again, things happened. Nothing we can do. Just hoped that he is peaceful and reborn in a better life.

TS you should consult a few Buddhist Sifus that has practical experience.

In theory, and in practice, the answer might be very different.

Also i recommend to you to ask in amulet forums you will have better replies.

Generally all schools of Buddhism don't practise burning stuff as offering, Taoists and their priests do
Hinduism believe in reincarnation (eternal soul), Buddhism believe in Rebirth (ever changing consciousness), sometimes the term reincarnation is used because it is a popular convention especially in the West but fundamentally in no way the same as Hinduism

So, the nuns hired i doubt they are real Buddhists if they burn stuff, play the thing ting ting tong tong type

Hope this gives you a better understanding on offerings to departed ones from the perspective of Buddhism, namely theravada Buddhism
http://sasanarakkha.org/talks/2003/04/cheng-beng.shtml
http://sasanarakkha.org/dhamma/2007/03/mer...ransferred.html

for more details get this small booklet FOC


pastacarbonara u wan come out to talk about it also can

This post has been edited by hotjake: Aug 15 2014, 04:20 PM

Hungry ghost? If really so hungry why don't they reach for the fridge and self-service, it is not like anyone could have stop them...

In the Sutta and buddhist teaching, re-incarnation (or rebirth / or re-existence however you wanna call it) happens immediately after death.

Wailing and crying for the dead will not help them in anyway, but the Buddha taught that these departed beings can benefit from transfer of merits - good deeds that are done on their behalf such as donation, taking precepts, meditation etc.

During the Buddha's time, King Bambisara donated food on behalf of his departed relatives (who were afflicted with their evil karma of burning down the dwelling of the monks and robbed commoners who came to give alms to the monks), and they benefited from it , transforming from disfigured ghosts to Devas (gods)

This post has been edited by Chrono-Trigger: Aug 18 2014, 02:25 PM

their kamma stops them from having those things.

it's like dogs and cats cannot enjoy arts and culture even if they are in front of them - these feelings cannot arise in their mind due to their present existence.

Another example is a deaf man cannot enjoy music, because these hearing consciousness cannot arise in his mind due to his karma. (even though music is just in front of them).

If what they want is merit, why all the messy offerings?

As someone mentioned before, that's not Buddhist practice.

For buddhists, they usually perform meritorious deeds (by giving alms to the monks) , taking moral precepts and meditate - after which they would dedicate the merits to the dead, by reciting the ancient Pali chant - "this is for my relative, may he be happy".

when a human dies. soul leaves the body in its purest form, an orb of energy. this orb of energy shall return to its creator. however, if this soul has karma that is yet to leave earth yet. he will reincarnate, and he will choose what experience will he want in the coming life. then he choose his future life and parents, and reborn. this can happen immediately, or short period of time. those other souls who did not reincarnate because the right 'candidate' is not ready, will inger in our world, but at a different dimension. hell and heaven exist together at the same time, but different dimension. that is when u astral project, u can adjust your aura and vibration, u can see these souls, whether hell or heaven is up to ur vibration. then those souls that has reached enlightenment, they will be 'god' or souls that vibrates at very high frequency. they are connected to the source/creator.

uh? what buddhism denomination are you from?

wow... this is getting a bit out of hand and more like fantasy already... anyway.. first.. i am not a buddist... i am just a knowledge seeker and recently buddism topic arises and interested me... so... i will write a bit on this...

first of all.. there is 6 realms of samsara.. if we have not reached enlightenment... we will "dwell" in either one of this 6 realms... and to be reborned as a human... as buddha teaches it when he grasp the sand on the floor and said that it is as much as the sand in his hands compare to those sands lying around... ie... its precious and hard to get human form... so the guy up there who say you can "choose" is not really that correct... where you go depends on the "balance" of merits... if you are good.. you go to higher "realms".. if not.. lower realms..

ok... buddism is only the "teachings" of buddha... the rest is add in... as some mention.. toaism... and stuff... lets go back to the teachings... first.. you have know.. there is no begining.. and there is no end... no begining no end... our body.. is just like a lease on an apartment.. when "it" expires.. you have to leave... and the concept of "me" does not exist.. that is a topic of its on so i skip.. basically the conclusion is "conciousness" is passed on.. the so call soul in other society.. this conciousness... and "karma" attached... that is the stuff that is pass on.. how long it leaves the body? depends on the meditation depth the person has achieved... some leave the body as soon as "death" (as in brain dead) happens.. and the body began to rot (start to smell).. some sifu or high meditators.. can last longer.. up to a week.. when pronounce "dead" (as in brain dead).. some ppl still observe certain "activity" and the body will not rot.. this is when they say the "conciousness" is still intact and not pass on... "generally" they say about 2 to 3 days... hence the mourning is usually 3 days.. as the "person" can still hear or linger around... some sifu.. as observed during china invade tibet and capture them time.. can meditate and chose to "leave" (dead) and rebirth.. some.. as seen by some sifu.. can "choose" or "know" when they die.. but generally it depends on the depth of meditation one has achieved... ok.. that part covered...

ghost festival.. the 15th day of lunar seventh months.. its also known as buddha joy month (most monks went to meditate and usually this months a lot gain enlighment this month).. at the same time.. another sutra by one of the buddha chief disciple (long name and i forgot).. got mentioned that the diciple dreamt of his mother in one of his past life suffering as a hungry ghost down there and is suffering very badly due to a past evil karmic act.. something abt he give her some money for charity (belongs to sangha) but instead of doing it she selfishly used it for her own benefit (in buddist term its stealing from the sangha which is a very bad bad bad bad bad negative karma).. so she was "thrown" to the hungry ghost realm to suffer until the karma is paid.. and the mother appeared in his dreams and ask him to help her gain some merits.. and the disciple woke up... and asked buddha what can he do to help her... and buddha asked him to help her gain merits by "feeding" the hungry ghost... and hence its also known as the hungry ghost festival as these practices so happen to fall on the 15th day of the 7th chinese lunar calender.. and the keyword is "feed"... not those burning and stuff... those are totally different... but since the practice is mixed over the centuries.... well... it becomes as what we see now... the "feed" mention i believe is "chanting" but i am yet to clear that part as i know buddist "chant" two very long sutras especially for the month.. and of coz some "food" offerings... ok.. that cleared that up...

ok.. the burning and stuff... yes.. as some mentioned its not a buddist practice.. it is in fact not.. its taoism practice.. now have to go back some time.. buddha teachings are only the words that buddha said.. the 4 noble truths.. the eightfold path and the sutras that is passed down.. other than that... its not buddist... but the "followers" who brought the teachings around... incorporated the teachings with the "local" practices... why? coz its easier to accept.. as long as the practice does not harm.. that is why some "evil" practices stopped... but the good ones remains.. the "buddist" have no problem with other practices as long as it does no harm.. hence some places have some sort of "different" practice.. but in the end of the day.. what is important is the sangha.. the dharma.. and the buddha (triple jewel)... as long as there is no harm... as long as the teachings are not diverted... as long as the faith is intact.. ok.. that answers some qs... well.. to be honest... i still find it hard to differentiate buddist and local practices.. but hey.. a scholar/knowledge seeker have to continue

i think i missed something.. typing while working and a lot of distraction.. sorry.... if someone could remind me where i forgot.. i might try to see if i can answer them...

This post has been edited by Wolves: Aug 20 2014, 04:57 PM

ah.. i remembered.. someone mention why ghost cannot just go fridge and take food... well.. in all 6 realms.. they all see things differently... for example.. water.. in human world.. we see them as water... in hungry ghost realm.. they see it as fire... and in the higher being realms... they see it as crystals... so different realms see things differently.. in one of the sutras.. it got mention hungry ghost can only eat puss.. blood and something.... very dirty.. coz of their karmic balance... they are "punished" and other stuff they eat will burnt their throat or something.. and so they appear skinny and cannot swallow stuff.. and one more thing is that each "realms" have different "life span".. and how long we stay there... depends on the karma balance again... this karma thingy will follow us and records whatever we do.. so there is no escape from it..

one more thing to clear... erm.. when we talk abt buddha..... it actually means enlightened beings.. there is actually more than one buddha.... the nearest to us as in the time frame is buddha sakyamuni (i think i spelt it right)...

anything else i forgot? got distracted and i forgot what i wanna write de...

ah crap.. the most important part.. lucky i read chrono-tiger's post again.. his post really good... ok.. praying to "ancestors".. thats actually a mix.. coz the "departed" or ancestors.. depending on the realms they went to... they can help.. as in if they are reincarnated in the higher beings.. and they can be in "ghost" realms... and we can "help"... and yes... we can still transfer merits to them.. as mention on the ghost festival thingy... even animal realms... animals benefitted from listening to sutras.. even though their karmic balance makes them unable to appreciate stuff we can... but they can still gain merits from us.. and only human realms can gain merits (need to read more on this as i am not really that sure but it does seems to be pointing in that direction).. and even if someone has pass away... the "fabric" of karma still interwines with everything or even us.. i think the term is "karmic knots"... that is why we need to slowly untie these knots too.. they can be an obstacles... and why "buddist" dint stop these taoism part (as i say they are mix.. praying to "ancestor" part is taoism) is because "respecting" the dead.. and the elders are good merits.. you gain good merits too.. and depends on their rebirth.. as i mention.. they can help you or in some cases.. you can help them by transfering merits..

Hey. Thanks for replying. Those 2 are quite good article. Took me quite a while digest it.

because most chinese ( prc and oversea ) are Taoism , but taoism does not forbid it believer to worship other god/goddess etc, all campur campur 1, it is like this for a very long time, no kecoh pun. * and Buddha also does not forbid it follower to worship other god/goddess/ancestor etc either.

This post has been edited by steadystream: Aug 23 2014, 05:44 PM

From a scientific POV ? Tell me more

doublefacepalm.png religion.. fake or true, you cant prove it , dont waste time here dude

I petik(quote) this from The Sutra of the Past Vows of Earth Store Bodhisattva... the two sutra i mention earlier they read during the ghost month... this one is the LONG one... i have been reading a bit for the past few days and not yet finish... it is really really really very long.. I put both the sutra quote.. and the "explaination" by one high monk on it....

(Quote)
Sutra:
For forty-nine days it is as if one were stunned and deaf, or as if in the courts arguing over one's own karmic retribution. Once judgement has been fixed, rebirth is undergone in accordance with one's deed.

Explaination:
During the 49 days while the spirit still does not know whether or not it has offenses or blessings, it is in a state of great confusion (stunned) and as in if deaf (it feels like it still has ears but cannot hear anything!).

This Intermediate Skanda Body is even more impermanent. It dies every seven days. It can last for a maximum of seven lives. Hence 49 days is the maximum amount of time before it goes for rebirth.

The hells, King yama's court, have 5 officials.... "
(Unquote)

(i stop here for this sutra and explaination and jumps to the next since i dunno TS is interested to hear the rest but i think the "spirit" explanation and the days/time after death is important...)

(Quote)
Sutra:
Throughout forty-nine days, one whose life has ended and who has not yet been reborn, in every thought, hopes that all his flesh-and-bone relatives will earn blessings powerful enough to rescue him or her.

Explanation:
During the peroid of the seven weeks following death one is as if in darkness, or as in in a court arguing his case. in the hells there are ten Yamas, each of whom has five subalterns. Within all five divisions there is argument and discussion about the deeds that have been done and retribution to be undergone.

In China it is customary to have monks recite sutras and do various things for the benefit of the dead during the seven weeks following death. This custom is derived from the principle clearly stated in this passage.
(unquote)

ok... earlier it got mention about the types of offerings.. i read until here.. and i remember this thread so i come to type out so TS can understand.. erm.. this is the part where the Earth Store Bodhisattva explain how we.. the one still living can help the deceased and the "merits" we gained in doing so.. erm.. earlier part got mention the "offerings" we can do on their behalf and explaination... basically everything can... incense.. oil lamp and stuff... all that does not involved killing... it got mention if you offer roast pork for example.. it actually created more karma and the deceased will face heavier karma penalty.. and even if he were to go heaven he might be throw down.. no killing punya offering only is allowed.... and it got explains that sometimes humans.. we.. do these coz when we do these stuff and usually "lack of response"... this kinda thing mana ada response and we "eager" to know so we seek out "spirits".. its mention there that spirits can help us "see" depending on what sort of spirits.. they are broken down to types in the text.. anyway.. it says ALL spirits cannot help us when it comes to these karma stuff... they cannot affect anything and to please them... when we offer the "meat" offering... we already committed heavier karmic penalty.. and these spirits will not tell "us" about that part coz it "enjoys" the offering.. so conclusion.. anything none living can be used as offerings.. the one shocked me is "butter".. i dint know until i read this long sutra...

anyway.. i still not yet finish reading but i can tell you i learn a lot from this sutra.. especially the commentary and explaination part... i still got around 200 pages to go at this moment so i am sure to discover more stuff... but i guess this answers the TS qs... over and out..

you're very welcome. if i may, i'd like to invite u for further digesting in terms of buddhist funeral guide as future reference; you may or may not find them useful, so read with an open mind.

http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf/buddhist_funeral.pdf
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/thera-chifuner.pdf