hi guys, just wondering if we can convert any new cars into using throttle cable, or new car still uses t.cable or equivalent replacement?

oh..how i wish theres even 1 car using cable and NOT drive by wire..
i would buy it anytime

Then you should buy Perodua Viva, Myvi or Alza anytime....

those are all drive by wire la
those modern engine
even ancient tech campro engine all already drive by wire
hence drive by wire lag happens

no.mechanical cable..

I know there's electronic fuel injection control. But i don't know that throttle in modern car don't have mechanical linkage. You mean my Viva 850 got electronic throttle control la?

1) On many cars, the accelerator pedal motion is communicated via the throttle cable, to activate the throttle linkages, which move the throttle plate.

2) In cars with electronic throttle control (also known as "drive-by-wire"), an electric motor controls the throttle linkages and the accelerator pedal connects not to the throttle body, but to a sensor, which sends the pedal position to the Engine Control Unit (ECU). The ECU determines the throttle opening based on accelerator pedal position and inputs from other engine sensors.
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so basically, the throttle actuation has two type. the classic :
http://chevythunder.com/2010%20project%20t...20cable%202.jpg

and the modern actuation = throttle body
http://www.firstfives.org/faq/throttle/Throttle_plate.jpg

so its actually whether your car throttle is using throttle sensor (electronic throttle) or not la. If it uses electronic, it slows down response time. I know old fashioned kelisa doesnt have throttle sensor.

I dont think viva has electronic throttle control. it may have electronic fuel ejection but its totally different section

to make things simple, if your car uses throttle sensor, it means electronic throttle. It sure lags your response time.

If no sensor means its "fun time". All your mercedes benz, BMW, Audi confirm has throttle sensor means it is slow when driver accelerate but because of engine power, it catches up later.

Car like Kelisa, wira or old car that has no sensor = once u accelerate puhhh.. u run like horse. now thats fun.

Please list down any modern cars that use NO throttle sensor, then I m happy with my next purchase.

If you want an instant throttle response buy an electric car.

this
and those MB, BMW and audi surely have electronic throttle sensor
but it feels like none because their throttle response is faster
i've revved and drove an audi before...it really feels like there isn't any DBW delay
the response is so fast
or should i say sensitive

This post has been edited by MR_alien: Jul 5 2014, 08:07 PM

too sad to say it went down the same road as carburetors

good that they improved the electronic throttle. Have driven few hondas and toyota.. all have throttle lag.

i think each manufacturers has different setting producing different result. like mr_alien said those lux vehicle has fast response time. while not for some honda and toyota? need to drive to compare haha

Why so butthurt with drive-by-wire throttle system?
The system actually very useful and use to implement following system:
● Rev limiter.
● Adaptive cruise control.
● Speed limiter.
● Traction control.
● Electronic stability control.
● Eco mode.
● Sport mode.
● Rev match shifting.
● Launch control.

The drive-by-wire throttle system give automotive engineer the flexibility to program the linearity of throttle response.

This post has been edited by Bubble Ring: Jul 5 2014, 10:53 PM

Drive by wire systems has it's merits compared to traditional mechanical systems... it came to automobiles after digital controls are proven to be advantageous in fighter jets like the F22 Raptors...

Like what Bubble Ring says... there are many reasons to why drive by wire is implemented from the ability to manipulate driving characteristics to safety and control systems that are in place...

There are reasons why digital throttle are in place as this makes it easier for manufacturers to intervene in between the car and driver for various multiple reasons.. there is no reason why a digital throttle cannot be made to act and have the linearity as if it was a mechanical system...

i guess you are pretty much getting things wrong here... digital throttle does not cause delay in throttle response... it is the deliberation of the manufacturer or a poor design that causes it... there is no doubt that electrical signals can travel through a sensor and wire as fast as the cable can react to the input by your foot... the only problem in the entire setup could only be the actuator motor that control the throttle plate not being able to turn in response fast enough hence a design factor...

and there is also reasons that manufacturers want to control over the throttle movements for reasons like prevent jerkiness in case the driver decided to feed too much throttle all of a sudden... the last batches of 2JZ VVTi motors actually introduced digital throttle which dampens throttle inputs i think by gear selection which in which way you look at it, might give it a smoother feel or safer as there would not be so much possibility of sending a surge of power to the driven wheels...

on the other hand, drive by wire systems in some cars (proton iafm manual) helps the driver to compensate for the lack of throttle (to a certain extend) if the engine is about to stall due to things like clutch not being released smoothly...

then on another side of things... digital throttle can be used to tune how the car reacts in different driving conditions like how most european marques like to add a "sport" mode to their cars...this can help sharpen up the throttle for spirited driving while turning it off will dull the throttle response down to make the car easier to drive in city driving...

if you are saying that DBW is the entire cause of all the conundrums... then you are indirectly saying that this proven technology is also a wrong direction in development in many other applications among things like fighter jets and the various robotics that are used in the medical / surgical field that might one day save your life...

the same reason why fly by wire exists in a F22 Raptor is because the design of the F22 Raptor is aerodynamically unstable which makes it impossible for a human being to fly the plane by itself and still focus on combat maneuvers.. this is why fly by wire is developed to be the intermediary between the pilot and the plane so that the pilot can tell the plane what it intends to get the plane to do by the electronics controls and the computer to command and make further decision on how to react to get the plane to do what the pilot wants it to do...

the same can be applied to cars of today if you see it that way... many other reasons can exists and it does not have to do with the car and yourself directly as it can be something as unrelated as emissions control or anything the engineers can think up which digital control systems can provide and be of assistance in the bigger picture...

many cars have throttle lag and especially worst.. throttle dampening in the first gear... if you are still driving your FD2R... consider investing in a hondata flash pro and you can play around with the "Target Throttle Plate" settings which will reveal a lot to you in terms of how the stock honda mapping is programmed... putting 50% throttle sometimes does not mean a 50% throttle plate opening on the throttle body for various reasons...

and there is reasons for throttle dampening to be applied in 1st gear as some cars might be a handful for some people in 1st gear which can be dangerous sometimes... you wouldn't want your GF to be ramming down the parking ticketing machine because she could not compensate the throttle properly for the incline where the ticketing machine is placed or your mother got startled by the amount of acceleration in 1st gear driving your car compared to her puny 1.0l city slugger....

as i say... in the bigger picture.. there is merits in such system being introduced... they can't make the car less sensible and go backwards just simply because you do not like it... that being said, there are always ways to get around it via aftermarket upgrades \ hacks and whatnot unless it is physically impossible to do so from a mechanical perspective...

This post has been edited by nm7: Jul 6 2014, 12:06 AM

Following are not so common implementation of drive-by-wire throttle system:

1) Launch control. Rregulating throttle and optimum engine output to prevent traction loss.






2) Rev match shifting. Regulating engine speed to match the speed of transmission input shaft.




3) Speeding teenage driver? Here's the parental control solution (speed limiter).




4) F1 pit lane speed limiter.


5) Allow F1 Race Engineer to program song.




Above examples demonstrated the many possibilities of servo motor driven throttle butterfly valve and it's impossible to implement with traditional mechanical cable driven type. The drive-by-wire throttle system doesn't work alone. It work and communicate with other system.

you just painted the bigger picture... unfortunately and sadly, not the picture TS wanted...

There also already steer-by-wire on production cars.

Those who complain about numb electric power steering.....prepare to complain summore

he did say he want a equivalent replacement, so i believe he should be happy if the drive-by wire system is sophisticated enough to give immediate response like how a throttle cable could.
like GTR

dares, those steer-by-wire system is in mass consumer cars mostly...

i think he wants a system that reacts just by the initiation of his thoughts... even the delays in the nerve pathways of his spinal cord in between his legs are too much of a delay for him to endure...

we can use system like Stephen Hawking's system, except got USB (or bluetooth) to connect to car engine

Don't forget park-by-wire feature.
Skip to 3:06 for action.





How about remote engine starting, air-can switching and GPS tracking with smartphone? [Kia MyUVO]



This post has been edited by Bubble Ring: Jul 6 2014, 12:56 AM

there are reasons why digital controls are yet to be implemented into 2 out of the 3 aspects of driving which is stopping and steering...

safety is one of it... if such system fails, it might very often mean the very end of whoever is on the controlling end and hence the stakes are larger compared to the acceleration aspect of driving...

if a digital throttle fails and gets stuck in throttle plate fully opened.. it could be over-comed by just killing the power to the engine or stomping on the brakes if it has enough bite to stop an engine at full grunt....

as with digital throttle... EPS and steer or brake by wire is all about adjusting it to the ergonomics of the driver... the driver can always adapt around a system while a system has to be systematically programmed to suit any specific person and the permutation on that would be preposterous if it needs to encompass every possible aspect or expectations out there...

which is why alonso is not complaining about the brake by wire on his F14T while kimi is blaming all his woes on it every chance he gets...

they can't just satisfy everyone...

This post has been edited by nm7: Jul 6 2014, 01:02 AM

USB would be more preferable for added physical security...there could be possibilities that someone can jam your bluetooth connection or worst, send instructions that do not originate from the actual controller and do harm... the wireless connection would need to be highly encrypted and secure and prevent possible interference from other similar systems in range..

but then, knowing people being people... they would just complain about the hassle of plugging in a cable everytime...

Actually, there's a brake-by-wire project developed by Siemens VDO called EWB for automotive application.
However, the project already abandoned due to safety reasons.

if you look at the toyota gas pedal recall / settlement / reaction... one cannot imagine the outcome of a failed braking system....

even something as common to some people like a warped rotor can cause an uproar in the toyota camry community... imagine if that darn thing fails... there might be a possible bloody massacre in the toyota corporation globally (just my worst case scenario imagination)....

Talk about wireless security and encryption, in US someone already managed to cracked the keyless entry system.

Perhaps, the device generate and inject known pattern of pass code into the system.
Just like the WiFi WPS cracking.



This post has been edited by Bubble Ring: Jul 6 2014, 01:43 AM

Nope, I m not wrong. In general, electronic does lags out the throttle as you have said it yourself. Intentional or non-intentional. I dont really care about nicky picky details. I selectively prefer to have what I want, there is nothing you can talk about it. I did say each manufacturers has different setting producing different result. like mr_alien said those lux vehicle has fast response time. I did not say he is wrong nor i m disputing the merit of electronic throttle. There is no need to put words in my mouth. Lets not go too far in fly by wire in raptor22, yes, its related but its funny and getting out of topic. Is there anything I dont know that you would like to add? Yes, anything that helps improve throttle response on ordinary car with electronic throttle. While, the rest you can keep it to yourself, really.

The topic of this thread is overblown. If anything that contributes to driving enthusiast has been taken over, it's the death of hydraulic steering. drive by wire lag? seriously

Doesn't Infiniti have a production car with drive by wire out there? But it still has a mechanical link just in case.

The lag might be intentional, cause it makes the car more comfortable to drive. Have you never driven with someone who has bad control over his leg? Sometimes you're pushed into the seat, then no gas at all, you fly forward, then pushed into seat, ... imagine that with a car that has immediate throttle response.

As for keyless entry... IIRC at a Swiss university some students have proven how insecure these systems are. They used 2 modified walkie talkies and were able to enter and even drive away all sorts of cars. You just need one person with a walkie talkie near to the key, while the other one has the walkie talkie in his pocket and enters the car as if he's the owner. It's rather trivial, and you can do it anywhere, any time, risk free, because the thief looks like he owns the car. No suspicious movements or anything.

This post has been edited by kadajawi: Jul 6 2014, 06:57 PM

unfortunately, the world revolves around TS... so he jus wants what he wants one way or the other... Honda / Toyota / Suzuki / Subaru / Kia / Hyundai / Ferrari / BMW / Merc / VW and who knows what will all have to do design their cars according to TS's needs if they intend to get his business...

very apparent that no argument is going to be valid from the start of the thread...

There's a reason why some cars come with different modes. Can set it to be responsive, can set it to be comfortable and fuel saving, depending on how you want it at this moment. Maybe the TS has to buy one of those cars?

I m not sure why you are still around. You dont like it? get out.

haha, indeed.. i need a sport cars!

Used to drive the previous gen city, the lag is so much. Actually when driving slowly like at parking lot, when u have this lag, it is annoying. As the engine will do nothing when u tap the pedal a little bit to get the minimal engine power for slow moving at the parking lot.

This post has been edited by ledtechn: Jul 6 2014, 08:09 PM

Here's your ahbeng solution to dbw lag

There's a different between the 1st gen vios (cable) vs 2nd gen and the rest (dbw) - the response for the 1st is immediate, while the rest has a bit of a lag like .5 sec or so.

Do you know why?

Fyi, TS has been poisoned by Scotty Kilmer video about the drive-by-wire throttle system.
You can check out this thread.

Personally, I like Scotty Kilmer's repair videos. Short, simple and funny.
Anyhow, I feel that guy quite anti-technology and always praise his ancient tech Toyota Celica.


This post has been edited by Bubble Ring: Jul 7 2014, 10:14 PM

I have driven 2 generation FL VIOS for 3 years and the realized the juddering and jerking or refer to slower response from the dbw, wasn't felt much delay from the system but instead more likely from the weird 4 speed gearbox, may be the gear ratio or something like that. At first i also though the dbw throttle system sucks, but after that, i shifted to current ride, an Prius hybrid, definitely having the dbw system for throttle. While on power mode, the throttle response very fast, almost instant, or at least i can't feel the obvious delay, may be need to use diagnostic tool to check, in order to find out if the throttle response is delayed or not.

thats not improving lag...its just change the throttle curve..

electronic throttle control should be as fast as mechanical linkage..
yes, there a delay, for sure...but at certain point it almost undetectable...

take servo used in RC car as an example...the high speed servo follows your hands movement rapidly..you mesmerise just by looking at it...

maybe theres a time where manufacturer will invest in zero-lag throttle control to cope with market demand...

BTW, electronic steering doesnt have lag...its just lack of feel/weight....

eh, i m still learning from his video.

his videos are informative and i watch them as well.

he is however rather bias/anti tech while i'm totally in favor of technological advancement.
so imho, take his opinions on tech with a pinch of salt

no doubt new tech always needs time to match existing tech, but to be anti-new tech is stupid. because we know eventually new tech will surpass existing tech and becomes the norm.