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> changing and looping new wall socket, help me master

advocado
post Jan 2 2018, 01:36 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jan 2 2018, 01:12 PM)
Standard tapping. An MCB of 20A is for 2 x 13A socket. If just 1 x 13A socket, use 16A MCB. Yes, you can see that 2 x 13A = 26A but an MCB of just 20A is used. This is to assume that you will not load constantly more than 20A on the wire.

[attachmentid=9476600]
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most of mine except 2 branches run on 2x13A @ 20A MCB using 2.5mm2 wires.

but there's 2 branches (running on 2 sets wires each) that runs on 5x13A @ 30A MCB 2.5mm2 & 6x13A @ 30A MCB 2.5mm2. i need to figure out where these 2 branches go

But even assuming a user has 1 13A dedicated wired socket it's normal they use a 5 slot extension socket especially around the home entertainment area. so am wondering how does a 5 slot extension socket do will it overload for normal home appliances?

also is it true AC startup requires x3 power consumption than it's rated input like ozak stated?

i'm guessing 13A socket can tolerate slightly higher amps before the fuse blows or the socket fails, but with MCB rated at 30A is it too high? especially if they run on 2.5mm2 wires. note this is the original design.

This post has been edited by advocado: Jan 2 2018, 01:50 PM
ozak
post Jan 2 2018, 01:42 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 2 2018, 01:28 PM)
normally there should have 2 RCD/RCCB after branching out from the main branch not including RCD for water heater etc.

100mA RCD branch is mainly for lights, Aircon, doorbell.

30mA RCD branch is for power socket, switches.

then for water heater there will have a 10mA RCCB.

30mA is obviously more sensitive than 100mA, but i don't know how they determine why Lights & Doorbell goes under 100mA, both are also connected to switches that user will often come into contact with. maybe the design is for Incandescent in mind (when switched on) and door bell usually requires a quick boost of Amp.

so running AC on 30mA might increase the chance of trip? i'm not sure that is why i asked.
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Is your house come with 2 RCD?

I never see a std house with 2RCD.

Unless you modify it yourself.
advocado
post Jan 2 2018, 01:43 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jan 2 2018, 01:12 PM)
Standard tapping. An MCB of 20A is for 2 x 13A socket. If just 1 x 13A socket, use 16A MCB. Yes, you can see that 2 x 13A = 26A but an MCB of just 20A is used. This is to assume that you will not load constantly more than 20A on the wire.

[attachmentid=9476600]
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bro the example diagram shown is it proper way doing it.

it only has a 40A/60A MCB on the main branch, and all the sockets are tapped from the 32A MCB branch. shouldn't they branch off at the main line instead? that 32A MCB can support so many MCB & Sockets?
advocado
post Jan 2 2018, 01:47 PM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Jan 2 2018, 01:42 PM)
Is your house come with 2 RCD?

I never see a std house with 2RCD.

Unless you modify it yourself.
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may i know your RCD/RCCB is what rating 100mA or 30mA.

for sockets requires 30mA, for water heater requires standalone 10mA, if you only have 1 RCD i would assume you only have a 30mA RCB?

if so means that probably not a problem the AC is connected on 100mA or 30mA RCD.

in this case having only 30mA RCD is actually safer compared to Aircon, Light switch & Doorbell running on 100mA.

so question, should i swap out the original 3Phase 60A/100mA RCCB for a 3P 60A/30mA RCCB?
advocado
post Jan 2 2018, 01:55 PM

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also any kind soul can advise on the requirement of a electrical box if i want to add a socket next to existing socket?

if need to add box i have to make a hole as big as the socket itself and install the box, then patch up any excess on the hole before adding the socket.

and can i install a 2 gang socket instead so at least 1 side of the socket is screwed into the existing box?

also is x2 1-gang socket better or x1 2-gang socket better?
ozak
post Jan 2 2018, 01:59 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 2 2018, 01:47 PM)
may i know your RCD/RCCB is what rating 100mA or 30mA.

for sockets requires 30mA, for water heater requires standalone 10mA, if you only have 1 RCD i would assume you only have a 30mA RCB?

if so means that probably not a problem the AC is connected on 100mA or 30mA RCD.

in this case having only 30mA RCD is actually safer compared to Aircon, Light switch & Doorbell running on 100mA.

so question, should i swap out the original 3Phase 60A/100mA RCCB for a 3P 60A/30mA RCCB?
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There is only 1 RCD in DB box for my home. 100mA.

Leave the RCD alone. You don't need to touch it.

Is your home have 2 RCD ?
advocado
post Jan 2 2018, 02:06 PM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Jan 2 2018, 01:59 PM)
There is only 1 RCD in DB box for my home. 100mA.

Leave the RCD alone. You don't need to touch it.

Is your home have 2 RCD ?
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yes it has 2 branches after main branch 100mA & 30mA.

sockets are on 30mA for better safety and i think is normal nowadays.

so for those tapping AC on the 30mA RCCB, not sure if it will result in more frequent trip or not due to sensitivity.
Zot
post Jan 2 2018, 02:20 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 2 2018, 01:43 PM)
bro the example diagram shown is it proper way doing it.

it only has a 40A/60A MCB on the main branch, and all the sockets are tapped from the 32A MCB branch. shouldn't they branch off at the main line instead? that 32A MCB can support so many MCB & Sockets?
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If you use simple math, numbers do not match simple math. The same practice is on the Internet. The formula they use contains probability. Not all demands happened at the same time, though they may. However, logically, it does not matter as long as the wire can support the main circuit breaker maximum load. Even if all the sockets run and trying to max their loads, the worst thing that can happen is that the main CB will trip.

So, if you know that they will be one socket that will always need full load, consider running it on separate line. For me, even if you branches more than 2 x 13A on 20A MCB, the 20A MCB will still protect the wiring from damage. Most of the time you just need more 3-pin sockets and not the 13A power. So, I do not worry much smile.gif

The problem with any socket or multiple socket plug adapter is that its poor quality that cause fire. The fire is not caused by overload of sockets because it is protected by at least 13A fuse. The fire is cause by poor socket contact that generates heats on prolonged heavy current load and the flammable material used.

Whenever you see any black mark on socket hole, it is time to change the socket. The copper clip grip may have weakened over time. Re-bending may not help much because the material property may have changed due to heat and become softened and more flexible. It may not hold grip as long as new one. I would just replace it.
advocado
post Jan 2 2018, 02:29 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jan 2 2018, 02:20 PM)
If you use simple math, numbers do not match simple math. The same practice is on the Internet. The formula they use contains probability. Not all demands happened at the same time, though they may. However, logically, it does not matter as long as the wire can support the main circuit breaker maximum load. Even if all the sockets run and trying to max their loads, the worst thing that can happen is that the main CB will trip.

So, if you know that they will be one socket that will always need full load, consider running it on separate line. For me, even if you branches more than 2 x 13A on 20A MCB, the 20A MCB will still protect the wiring from damage. Most of the time you just need more 3-pin sockets and not the 13A power. So, I do not worry much  smile.gif

The problem with any socket or multiple socket plug adapter is that its poor quality that cause fire. The fire is not caused by overload of sockets because it is protected by at least 13A fuse. The fire is cause by poor socket contact that generates heats on prolonged heavy current load and the flammable material used.

Whenever you see any black mark on socket hole, it is time to change the socket. The copper clip grip may have weakened over time. Re-bending may not help much because the material property may have changed due to heat and become softened and more flexible. It may not hold grip as long as new one. I would just replace it.
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yea there's 3 levels of protection socket fuse, MCB & main MCB but they do not have thermal protection.

however the sample you gave means 12 sockets running on 32A MCB shows that they could have just split a branch out just for the sockets. the design on the socket branch is adequate but bottlenecked by the 32A MCB on the main run. anyway i don't think it's common here to do like that.

so AC startup will take around 15A, that means 2hp aircon might just keep tripping on a 20A MCB because their consumption is around 7A so start up would be borderline 20A+-.
Zot
post Jan 2 2018, 02:41 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 2 2018, 02:29 PM)
yea there's 3 levels of protection socket fuse, MCB & main MCB but they do not have thermal protection.

however the sample you gave means 12 sockets running on 32A MCB shows that they could have just split a branch out just for the sockets. the design on the socket branch is adequate but bottlenecked by the 32A MCB on the main run. anyway i don't think it's common here to do like that.

so AC startup will take around 15A, that means 2hp aircon might just keep tripping on a 20A MCB because their consumption is around 7A so start up would be borderline 20A+-.
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When a motor (or compressor in this case) starts, it is like short circuit at very short instance. that is why for high hp air-con, a starter is needed to reduce voltage and current. a 1hp air-con used to have it before but since it is not much, the starter is built into the unit so that you don;t need a bulky starter that can support a much larger power air-con.

The air-con current surge is during compressor start. That is why one of the main reason the conventional air-con uses more electricity since the compressor starts many time during normal operation. The inverter air-con compressor solves this problem. Anyway, the current requirement once the compressor runs is not high.
advocado
post Jan 2 2018, 02:45 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jan 2 2018, 02:41 PM)
When a motor (or compressor in this case) starts, it is like short circuit at very short instance. that is why for high hp air-con, a starter is needed to reduce voltage and current. a 1hp air-con used to have it before but since it is not much, the starter is built into the unit so that you don;t need a bulky starter that can support a much larger power air-con.

The air-con current surge is during compressor start. That is why one of the main reason the conventional air-con uses more electricity since the compressor starts many time during normal operation. The inverter air-con compressor solves this problem. Anyway, the current requirement once the compressor runs is not high.
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IC. so most AC 1-2hp will come with their starter right esp inverters?

ok now on the looping, to add a socket beside existing, is it better to install a electric box or just drill enough space for the wire to run to the added socket and socket sits on the wall instead of screwed into the box?

also is x2 1-gang socket better than x1 2-gang socket and if i use 2-gang can i just screw 1 side of the socket into the existing box?
Zot
post Jan 2 2018, 02:55 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 2 2018, 02:45 PM)
IC. so most AC 1-2hp will come with their starter right esp inverters?

ok now on the looping, to add a socket beside existing, is it better to install a electric box or just drill enough space for the wire to run to the added socket and socket sits on the wall instead of screwed into the box?

also is x2 1-gang socket better than x1 2-gang socket and if i use 2-gang can i just screw 1 side of the socket into the existing box?
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It is just how good you want it look. If one socket flushed to the wall and the additional one protruding on the wall, it looks unprofessional laugh.gif

I drilled and hacked mine and make the sockets flushed nicely on the wall. It is not easy if you do not have proper tool. Yet with proper tool, still need a bit of work smile.gif

The easiest way is to use 2x ganged socket. You can chisel the wall and make them flushed or just sit on surface. The good thing about ganged socket are:
1) Internally both socket are interconnected with copper strip. So, no connection loss or possible heat generating lose screw.
2) Jumping wires between screw holes is tedious. I don't like it much. Too short, hard to work with. Too long, hard to push and fit wires into small socket space laugh.gif
advocado
post Jan 2 2018, 03:14 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jan 2 2018, 02:55 PM)
It is just how good you want it look. If one socket flushed to the wall and the additional one protruding on the wall, it looks unprofessional  laugh.gif

I drilled and hacked mine and make the sockets flushed nicely on the wall. It is not easy if you do not have proper tool. Yet with proper tool, still need a bit of work  smile.gif

The easiest way is to use 2x ganged socket. You can chisel the wall and make them flushed or just sit on surface. The good thing about ganged socket are:
1) Internally both socket are interconnected with copper strip. So, no connection loss or possible heat generating lose screw.
2) Jumping wires between screw holes is tedious. I don't like it much. Too short, hard to work with. Too long, hard to push and fit wires into small socket space  laugh.gif
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oh wait i don't have to installed socket with me right now so i'm not sure if the socket is slightly buried inside the wall or sitting on the wall because i don't know how deep the box is buried. if it's slightly inside the wall yea it will look uneven.

the hole you make, is it bigger than the socket and need to patch up the edges?

but in this case if i don't want to make a square hole for the socket to sit in, how would i be able to install the 2-Gang as the surface would be uneven.

and if the socket is indeed buried slightly in the wall, how do i remove it to do the wiring since i assume it's stuck with the wall. meaning i have to chisel the 4 edges of the socket to get it out?

and based on what you say, the 2-Gang socket is already prewired between the 2, so i just need to disconnect the wires on existing socket and plug into the 2-Gang? for Schnieder sockets are the internal wiring quality good? if so i think replacing 1 gang with 2 gang is more efficient since they don't cost too much. safe the work to extend the wires.

is there such thing as a "Box Sinker" you use with a drill that makes a square hole for sockets? is it easy available in malaysia?

and regarding installing plugs on ceiling, how to avoid wirings if there is no wiring route drawings? i need to put plugs for lights on Concrete & plaster ceiling and there are existing wires poking out. plaster maybe i can go up manhole have a peek but concrete, usually are the wires buried close to the surface or deeper within the ceiling? to play safe i should use shorter plugs so they won't dig too deep?

This post has been edited by advocado: Jan 2 2018, 03:15 PM
Zot
post Jan 2 2018, 03:55 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 2 2018, 03:14 PM)
oh wait i don't have to installed socket with me right now so i'm not sure if the socket is slightly buried inside the wall or sitting on the wall because i don't know how deep the box is buried. if it's slightly inside the wall yea it will look uneven.

the hole you make, is it bigger than the socket and need to patch up the edges?

but in this case if i don't want to make a square hole for the socket to sit in, how would i be able to install the 2-Gang as the surface would be uneven.

and if the socket is indeed buried slightly in the wall, how do i remove it to do the wiring since i assume it's stuck with the wall. meaning i have to chisel the 4 edges of the socket to get it out?

and based on what you say, the 2-Gang socket is already prewired between the 2, so i just need to disconnect the wires on existing socket and plug into the 2-Gang? for Schnieder sockets are the internal wiring quality good? if so i think replacing 1 gang with 2 gang is more efficient since they don't cost too much. safe the work to extend the wires.

is there such thing as a "Box Sinker" you use with a drill that makes a square hole for sockets? is it easy available in malaysia?

and regarding installing plugs on ceiling, how to avoid wirings if there is no wiring route drawings? i need to put plugs for lights on Concrete & plaster ceiling and there are existing wires poking out. plaster maybe i can go up manhole have a peek but concrete, usually are the wires buried close to the surface or deeper within the ceiling? to play safe i should use shorter plugs so they won't dig too deep?
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The wall socket face panel is screwed into housing. Normal housing inside the wall is black plastic with two post where you screw the 3-pin socket panel. During construction, this black plastic housing is nailed onto the wall brick before wall plastering. They will leave square (more or less) opening just slight smaller than the socket panel so that when you screw the panel, it will sit flushed on the wall. This black socket is not meant to be mount on the wall. It is not good looking as white housing you see at the electrical shop, which is meant to be mounted on the wall, though you can still mount inside the wall. The black socket is sold at any electrical construction material.

If you want to mount something like this on the wall.

Attached Image

Just fill the hole with cement or tile the hole (if wall is tiled) leaving opening for wire and screw on top of the wall. This is faster way. If you want it flushed, then need to hack and recreated the opening and place the mounting housing inside the wall. A lot more work and you need power tool to ease the job or hire contractor laugh.gif

Many house wiring is not in conduit. Normal practice is that the wiring is laid and clipped perpendicular or parallel to the wall. Yes. they run in square pattern either perpendicular or horizontal, close to ceiling or along 3-pin socket level. So, whenever I want to mount screw for ceiling lighting, I will drill across diagonally and pray no wire underneath sweat.gif

Once I pulled a wire for external lighting. Mount a switch near a cluster switches and need to pull wire across the wall. However, there is 3 pin socket down there and the wire will intersect and I need to use disc cutter to cut the wall plaster. So, need to guess how deep inside the plaster those wire are. I was luck just 2~3mm above the wire. I pulled the N wire from the 3-pin socket and the the L wire from the switch met perpendicularly the N wire from the socket. Both wires then go outside through wall near ceiling. Then I plastered the wall nicely using white unshrinkable cement before painting it. Very satisfied with it. thumbsup.gif
advocado
post Jan 2 2018, 04:48 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jan 2 2018, 03:55 PM)
The wall socket face panel is screwed into housing. Normal housing inside the wall is black plastic with two post where you screw the 3-pin socket panel. During construction, this black plastic housing is nailed onto the wall brick before wall plastering. They will leave square (more or less) opening just slight smaller than the socket panel so that when you screw the panel, it will sit flushed on the wall. This black socket is not meant to be mount on the wall. It is not good looking as white housing you see at the electrical shop, which is meant to be mounted on the wall, though you can still mount inside the wall. The black socket is sold at any electrical construction material.

If you want to mount something like this on the wall.

Attached Image

Just fill the hole with cement or tile the hole (if wall is tiled) leaving opening for wire and screw on top of the wall. This is faster way. If you want it flushed, then need to hack and recreated the opening and place the mounting housing inside the wall. A lot more work and you need power tool to ease the job or hire contractor  laugh.gif

Many house wiring is not in conduit. Normal practice is that the wiring is laid and clipped perpendicular or parallel to the wall. Yes. they run in square pattern either perpendicular or horizontal, close to ceiling or along 3-pin socket level. So, whenever I want to mount screw for ceiling lighting, I will drill across diagonally and pray no wire underneath  sweat.gif

Once I pulled a wire for external lighting. Mount a switch near a cluster switches and need to pull wire across the wall. However, there is 3 pin socket down there and the wire will intersect and I need to use disc cutter to cut the wall plaster. So, need to guess how deep inside the plaster those wire are. I was luck just 2~3mm above the wire. I pulled the N wire from the 3-pin socket and the the L wire from the switch met perpendicularly the N wire from the socket. Both wires then go outside through wall near ceiling. Then I plastered the wall nicely using white unshrinkable cement before painting it. Very satisfied with it.  thumbsup.gif
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ok, 1st question, if the square hole is slightly smaller than the socket, doesn't that mean once the socket is screwed into the box, it kisses/sits on the wall? if i decide to add another socket beside without using a box, won't the new socket also be kissing/sitting on the wall so both sockets are even even though 1 has a box 1 doesn't? i mean i still make a hole behind the new socket just enough for wiring etc just not as big or deep as a box would require.

also if i take out the single socket and put a 2 gang socket will it sit evenly on the wall? the wiring connection for 2 gang sockets, it's located in the middle or 1 side of the socket?

my idea of existing wiring would be same possible path is the cross, i can try to avoid drilling on the cross but just worry the wires might be curved inside the ceiling. Wires for AC/Socket/Heater/Doorbell all are inside conduit (assuming they follow the drawings), lights most probably not in conduit (not sure about those above plaster ceiling.

for plaster ceiling, i always wonder after they laid the cable, put up the plaster, how they manage to avoid cutting the wires (or even the aluminum plaster support) when they make hole for downlights? i mean once they plaster it up, you can't see anything. this is especially if the wire & plaster are done by different people.



Zot
post Jan 2 2018, 05:12 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 2 2018, 04:48 PM)
ok, 1st question, if the square hole is slightly smaller than the socket, doesn't that mean once the socket is screwed into the box, it kisses/sits on the wall? if i decide to add another socket beside without using a box, won't the new socket also be kissing/sitting on the wall so both sockets are even even though 1 has a box 1 doesn't? i mean i still make a hole behind the new socket just enough for wiring etc just not as big or deep as a box would require.

also if i take out the single socket and put a 2 gang socket will it sit evenly on the wall? the wiring connection for 2 gang sockets, it's located in the middle or 1 side of the socket?

Smaller means the socket face panel will cover the opening hole but deep enough to ensure the panel sit flushed on the wall surface. Note that the monting screw is not on very edge of panel but  a bit inside. The in wall mounting box is smaller than the type mounted on the wall. This is another way to do:



my idea of existing wiring would be same possible path is the cross, i can try to avoid drilling on the cross but just worry the wires might be curved inside the ceiling. Wires for AC/Socket/Heater/Doorbell all are inside conduit (assuming they follow the drawings), lights most probably not in conduit (not sure about those above plaster ceiling.

for plaster ceiling, i always wonder after they laid the cable, put up the plaster, how they manage to avoid cutting the wires (or even the aluminum plaster support) when they make hole for downlights? i mean once they plaster it up, you can't see anything. this is especially if the wire & plaster are done by different people.

Usually they leave small square opening with cover the same material as plaster ceiling for access. Other than that the hole for downlight mounting is the access for wiring. They just fish wires through downlight openings.

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advocado
post Jan 2 2018, 05:41 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jan 2 2018, 05:12 PM)
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so the reason without a box the socket won't be able to sit nicely on the wall is because of the protruding part like the screw in is in the way? what if i drill hole where the screw in will sit, will the socket sit on the wall nicely without a box? of course the middle part will have a hole for wiring.

the plaster ceiling maker said they will cut a hole after the plaster is done, so it's different from what you say cut a tiny manhole. fishing the wire is not an issue just that the wire might be right above the plaster, so the risk of cutting the wires when making a hole is there. especially if you use a hole maker with driller.

also is box sinker common in malaysia?

user posted image

and there is 1 socket i would like to add but it's on a wall tile, so what is the best method to get it in line with the existing while not making visible damage on the tile that cannot be hidden by the socket?

This post has been edited by advocado: Jan 2 2018, 05:43 PM
Zot
post Jan 2 2018, 05:45 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 2 2018, 05:41 PM)
so the reason without a box the socket won't be able to sit nicely on the wall is because of the protruding part like the screw in is in the way? what if i drill hole where the screw in will sit, will the socket sit on the wall nicely without a box? of course the middle part will have a hole for wiring.

the plaster ceiling maker said they will cut a hole after the plaster is done, so it's different from what you say cut a tiny manhole. fishing the wire is not an issue just that the wire might be right above the plaster, so the risk of cutting the wires when making a hole is there. especially if you use a hole maker with driller.

also is box sinker common in malaysia?

user posted image
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Not much of a risk. The gap between the original ceiling and plaster ceiling is not so small I believe.

Yes you can drill hole and put plug if you don't want mounting box I believe.
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post Jan 2 2018, 05:48 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Jan 2 2018, 05:45 PM)
Not much of a risk. The gap between the original ceiling and plaster ceiling is not so small I believe.

Yes you can drill hole and put plug if you don't want mounting box I believe.
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hi, i mean after they pull the wire, the wire should be resting above the plaster ceiling pending installation, that is where the risk of cutting the wire is. unless they tied the wires slightly above the ceiling.

btw your concern without a box is that the back of the socket will block the wall so they can't sit nicely on the wall, or that there won't be anything for the socket to hold on to with screw?

cannot apply silicone on the edges to glue the socket into place? sorry coz i haven't got access to a twin socket not sure how the back looks like.

This post has been edited by advocado: Jan 2 2018, 05:52 PM
Zot
post Jan 2 2018, 08:52 PM

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QUOTE(advocado @ Jan 2 2018, 05:48 PM)
hi, i mean after they pull the wire, the wire should be resting above the plaster ceiling pending installation, that is where the risk of cutting the wire is. unless they tied the wires slightly above the ceiling.

btw your concern without a box is that the back of the socket will block the wall so they can't sit nicely on the wall, or that there won't be anything for the socket to hold on to with screw?

cannot apply silicone on the edges to glue the socket into place? sorry coz i haven't got access to a twin socket not sure how the back looks like.
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The wire is freely move around. The chance to get cut is very unlikely.

At the back of the panel, like all sockets, has mechanical part ans switch, socket pins, etc. So, it protrude to certain extend. The screw need to be ling to catch the cement deep beyond the protrusion. The mounting box has plastic post that make it unnecessary for too long a screw and easier to install.

No need to apply glue as the edge cover the hole when mounted. Applying glue makes it difficult to do repair. Ganged one similar to single one except the back protrusion is longer rectangular in shape. You cannot see interconnection normally.

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