you point that salvation must come by believing in Christ while we still alive.

which raises the question. is there salvation after death ?

excerpts from the Internet..

What about the good people who have lived out their lives without ever hearing the name of Christ or anything that He taught and therefore had no chance at salvation?

Are people condemned because of geography or the timing of their birth? Billions of people, by no choice of their own, have been born, lived and died in regions or during eras in which the Word of God was never available to them.

How could a just and loving God condemn people born into such a situation?

Would it be fair for God to destroy them forever when they never really had an opportunity to understand His truth? Indeed it would not be just or fair. That's why the Bible reveals that God's plan encompasses the billions of men, women and children who have lived and died under just those circumstances.

The answer is the second resurrection in physical form (i am still sceptical but for now i accept this as His answer.)

Ezekiel:37:1-14 describes the second resurrection in colorful detail. This chapter shows how God will work with people of all nations, for Israel has no spiritual advantage over other people (Galatians:3:26-29).

I agree, we should not create layers upon layers of hidden meaning.

Unfortunately, i am not the author of the bible. I believe Holy Spirit is the author of the bible. Therefore when you say: "We take the meaning as 10 yrs old would have taken to believe when first time reading the Bible" ... without you realize, you try to demonstrates you are smarter then Holy Spirit. But i am sure you are trying to be "as safe as" possible and "as righteous as" possible.... a good intention and pure heart is good, but cannot out weight God's love to you.

Perhaps you don't realize but now i hope your eyes is open. Let 10 yrs old think as 10 yrs old.... Let Sonido think as what Christ wants...

My advise, ask the holy spirit. He will gently guide you. He will gives you rhema. For detail about Logos and Rhema, i think this side should be good to start:
http://ati.iblp.org/ati/family/articles/concepts/rhema/

Perhaps you misunderstand my point.

I agree with you, there are many people who does good deeds without expecting anything in return, it's out of the sincerity of their Hearts but these acts do not qualify them to Heaven.

Many people will probably ask why not?

The answer is this.

The Kingdom of God is about God's Glory and his goodness, it has nothing to do with us.

He qualify us to enter NOT because we are good but because God is good, this Glory and Recognition belongs to Him and Him alone.
He qualify us to enter NOT because we do good deed but because God's good work at the cross. (Jesus sacrificed himself at the cross).

It ALL about God, nothing to do with us. NOT EVEN our obedience to God qualify us.

Since you mention atheist, please allow me to kepo a bit.

Selflessly helping others and witnessing how someone relieves from pain by our own action will generates good sensation which contributes to a peaceful mind. Even feeding a hungry stray kitten will do. I guess it is the nature of one's conscience and compassion.

To simplify it, i don't believe in God but i understand the benefit of good deeds and doing something without recognizing its benefits or harm is called delusion.

I appreciate your view not to believe in God. At least you share your core belief system.

there is salvation after death, by believing in Christ, you are accepted in heaven when you die, Jesus told nicademus before Flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit so in order to be reborn is believing in Jesus Christ and the Trinity which is consist of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, your soul are saved the moment you accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior and that He died on the Cross for us, otherwise you are bound in Hell where the gnashing teeth come from.

Before Jesus was taken up to Heaven He commanded this to His Twelve Disciple, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit , 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’ (Matthew 28:18 - 20)

29 Jesus replied, ‘You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead – have you not read what God said to you, 32 “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.’ (Matthew 22:29-32)

21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. (1 Corinthians 15:21)

This post has been edited by De_Luffy: Jul 19 2014, 04:32 PM

"Are people condemned because of geography or the timing of their birth? Billions of people, by no choice of their own, have been born, lived and died in regions or during eras in which the Word of God was never available to them."

That is one point that my mom and I wondered. Our grandparents come straight from China. None of my foreparents knew there is such a thing as 'Christians' until the time when ang moh came. Even then, they've never heard the word of God until they came to Malaysia.

anybody attending alpha?

i'll be frank. Holy Spirit is a subject i wish not to touch, due to my lack of knowledge. what i know is the reality im facing and Jesus Christ, that is enough. Im imperfect and i sin everyday and i may end up in hell. i don't care.

mind to give more info?

i should clarify this to you. what i mean is no orndinary type of work. this is a type of work that even more important than faith that we need to perform before Christ can offer us the gift of everlasting life.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE.

Love cannot be manifested without work. in other words, good deeds are the manifestations of love.

the first and most important commandment is to Love God with all your heart. but since God has everything, He doesn't mean He need us to perform a ritual rote prayer that utters the 'i love u God' a thousand times a day... He had shown us how to love him through our work in Matthew 25:36-40...

I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply,

‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. AGAINST SUCH THINGS THERE IS NO LAW.

religion equates to law. this is why i said religion becomes irrelevant.

This post has been edited by sonido: Jul 20 2014, 08:35 AM

The keyword i was looking for you said is compassion. It is a component of Love. Thanks for the explanation.

salvation = your sin is forgiven by Christ. you can still lose this gift of salvation if you do not practice it. only when we are sinless that we can enter heaven. this is why we need Christ in our everyday life to ensure we do not stray from the right path. we strive with our own strength, but we need Christ to lend us the help we need in every situation we face. (correct me if im wrong)

salvation is not a gift, salvation is once you received Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior which means you are bound in heaven which is eternal

owh okay.. i m always careless with my choice of words

Ok i see your point because i exactly like yours before, before moving to other church.

I also has a lot of confusion in the past because people interpret bible "suka-suka-dia"... meaning whatever the preacher / gurus claim he got from God / Jesus Christ, they just preach 1 way, and did not want to hear my response nor answering my questions. Forget about challenge him, because he the ones holding the mics. Sometimes i got change to discuss usually if the preacher is not busy. either by lunch / dinner or just simply casual talks... at the end either i have something new, or i feel closer to hell.

The problem is, their version of truth did not help my problem, or at least their truth also did not make me a better person. What i feel, i feel sooooooooooo close to hell instead of soooooooooo close to Jesus.

Then i decided to venture from Churh A, to B, to C to D to really find the church that really meet my need
1. Church must understand that i am a normal human being. take me as is, or leave me alone
2. Church must understand that i sin everyday, due to nature as business man sometimes i have to convince client and give clients comforts, instead of plain truth.
3. Church must be worshiping Jesus Christ, same as i worship Jesus Christ.
4. Church must be open and have attitude to give warmth welcome to newcomers, instead of just simply Praise God and forget new comers.

So today i went to a church that really 50% to 70% meet my expectations. At least the community did not condemn me, and understand me as is... as is meaning take me as what i am. And also, they take care my emotional needs, as a human being, i need pair of ears that i can trust. The definition of trust is:
1. did not call me sinner because i share you A,B,C,D...
2. can keep secret as i just need ur pair of ears.

sound selfish ? you need to trust me this. They are people that want to invest their lives in you. Listening to you, and build you... because they are just people like to do that... there are also church like that... 1st They put Jesus as no 1, and then No 2. they invest their lives in you. The doctrine is just as simple as that. So if you are selfish, these kind of church still will pamper you, because they are looking for selfish people. at least that's their doctrine.

You can try church:
http://www.chc.org.my/

When you attend chc church above, they always announce to all congregation: who is the first comer or second time comer. We would love to know you more and let's have a relationships. This is good. they are deliberately telling you that if you are a first timer or second timer, you are welcomed. All you need to to is raise your hand and minister / ushers / leaders nearby will give you pen and card that you can fill with your name and phone number.

This church as 500 people at 10AM service in the morning, so it's quite packed, but usually only 1% to 5% are new comers. sometimes leaders they approach you, sometimes if not, usually they will call you next days... but perhaps they forgot who knows... people are inperfect anyway

The people are nice, but again... people also have weaknesses... so don't get tempted to just say yes...yes... and open up 100%. Balance it.... trust Jesus, don't be naive... Test first....

When they call you, they ask for a meeting / chit-chat ... well consider as business opportunities. who knows it's benefit, why not give a try.... give them test case. (aka you lie / make up story lahhh.... ) e.g.
telling them i run a business but now business is difficult ya... where is my Jesus ?
telling them i am smart at school, but i need to work so don't have time to study, so i cheat with assignments and exams... what should i do ya ? life difficult lah... no work no money to pay tuition. no degree no career lahhh...

Then slowly you will have a better understanding of live.

now is 9:15 sunday. chc start at 10AM. hope u stay nearby. God Bless

This post has been edited by de1929: Jul 20 2014, 09:17 AM

All gifts from God are eternal, as you pointed out the greatest of these is love, why is that so because Jesus love His people so much that He is willing to die on the cross for our sins. That is the greatest love of all and God ask you to do the same for Him by laying down your life for Him no matter what is the consequences.

God wants you to lay down your life to spread the Good News of Him, even that means death.

Has anyone attended City Harvest Church?

May I know if it's really a church?

How do you define a church?