U didn't prove me wrong. It just your interpretation different than mine. And if i am not wrong then i must be correct.

Which brings to an interesting question. When is a christian born again?

Excerp from an article in the internet,

In this account, Nicodemus questioned Jesus, who answered, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Confused, Nicodemus replied, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered...Except a man be born of water [the first physical, human birth, but can also refer to baptism] and of the Spirit [later, at the Resurrection], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:4-5). To see and enter God’s kingdom, you must become spirit. This will be clear. But people are physical. Entering the kingdom is impossible for them, because scripture states, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (I Cor. 15:50)!

Ah ... excellent question ...

To be born again is to be regenerated.

John 1
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,

13 Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is to be regenerated by the Spirit of God. We need to be regenerated by God, with God, and through God to receive God Himself into us as life. On top of our human life, we receive the divine life of God.

Why do we use the term “born again”? Originally we were born of our parents; but now we are born once more, this time of God; hence, this experience is called being born again. Being born of our parents caused us to obtain human life, whereas being born of God causes us to have God’s life. Therefore, we who have been regenerated have God’s life in addition to the human life.

God’s salvation does not correct or improve man, but regenerates man, since our human life is already corrupted and cannot be made good by improvement. This is the first reason we must be regenerated.

Second, speaking from the higher aspect, there is another reason we need to be regenerated. But first, let us ask: If our life had not been corrupted and become evil, would we still need to be regenerated? (I.e. if Adam did not fall) ...

The Bible reveals it as Yes; we would still need to be regenerated, because our human life is only a created life, not God’s uncreated life. When we were created, we obtained only created life; we did not obtain God’s uncreated life. God’s purpose for us human beings is that we may obtain His uncreated life and be transformed into His image to be like Him, as He is. Therefore, even if our human life had not been corrupted, we would still need to be regenerated.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jul 18 2014, 11:33 AM

Catholics think it is ok to ask a deceased normal human, including Mary, because they believe that they are still present in the afterlife. They acknowledge that they are still living, to be consistent with the belief in heaven and hell. To ignore them, especially those who are saints, is to disregard the grace which God gave them, and lessens the significance of life after death. That's all fine and good, but why still pray to these 'people' if you can go direct to God? Because they believe that by gathering God's saints, and in having conversations with them, and in celebrating their deeds and acts, they ultimately glorify God's will and plan. It is really a universal approach rather than simply thinking that 'oh these people can help me out with God'.

Mary is particularly special because Catholics think that, of all the human beings in the world, if they ever wanted to ask someone to join in their 'group prayer', and if God were ever to choose or favour one person to listen to, it would be Mary, the mother.

Catholic theology has always been fascinating, regardless of my own feelings for the religion. Non-Catholic theology is equally interesting too, as there are so many different beliefs!

Pehkay, i hope u truly understand my answers. Your explanation of reborn occur when a person is still alive.

While mine is this:
1. Valar morghulis (all men must die)
2. Reborn as spirit
3. Enter heaven.

Excerpt fr internet..

notice a startling scripture recorded by the apostle Paul. Recognize that the Bible always interprets itself—another great rule of Bible study—and to always accept what it says after it does. Now notice: “[Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature...and He is the head of the Body, the Church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD; that in all things He might have the preeminence” (Col. 1:15, 18).

Jesus showed how to get into heaven. That is: practice love, die honorably, and be resurrected in spirit form before u can go to heaven. Regardless of religions.

Ah, you push the event to His coming back.

I do recognize that the Bible interprets itself. The verses you quoted along with Romans 8:29-30 will show that we can experience this reality NOW. It will be consistent with the verses in Colossians.

29 Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;

30 And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Right now, we are many brothers of the Firstborn from the dead. Spiritually, we are those who died and resurrected with Christ (Romans 6:8, 1 Pet. 1:3b; Eph. 2:5a etc.) by being one with Him. We are the "twins" of Christ. Too marvelous!

It is now!

This post has been edited by pehkay: Jul 18 2014, 04:09 PM

May I?

Though it sounds nice but unfortunately that is not the truth. If any good person from any religion can go to heaven, it would be pointless for Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins and the Apostles of Christ would be the greatest fools on Earth because Jesus did say He is the only way to Heaven and the Apostles gave their own life for the sake of the gospel, something they truly believe in and experienced. There is no self agenda neither It is something taken lightly because if it is, it defeats the purpose giving up their lives. They are aware of this and recorded their statement in the book of Corinthians.



There's a reason why Jesus spoke in Parables and there is a reason why Jesus uses the OT Law, presupposing good works for Salvation vs Grace when it comes to certain type of people.

First of all, the Parables spoken are meant for people who have closed their heart to God for various reasons, unbelief, self righteousness, self dependency, etc. BUT God spoke clearly to those who are willing to follow Him as stated in verse 11 (the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you) and in the same breath BUT not to them. And Jesus explained those who has will be given more.

What is the meaning of this? It means that those who has are those who are willing to receive God's grace. To have means you must receive from God. Those who have none are those who think they don't need God's Grace. They can make it on their own, presupposing on their own strength, wisdom and works. Even that has no value in the eyes of God and will be taken away as mentioned in verse 12 (Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.)


So what about the Parables of the sheep and goats?

Jesus will use the Law to bring anyone to the end of himself for those who presupposes on their own strength. Consider the Parable of the Young Rich Man.




When that Rich young Ruler asked, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life"?

Jesus should have said the first time, Believe in Him (John 3:16) but instead gave him the Law, and that guy went away sorrowful unable to fulfill it. WHY?

See, the message of the Bible is very consistent. This is the central doctrine of our Salvation is always by Grace and by Faith not of works, it can never be change neither be altered, unless God is the one who does it. Until then this is the prevailing Doctrine.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

The Salvation of God is either by Grace or by Works, NEVER both, this is the EXACT meaning of Romans 11:6.

So why did Jesus gave the Rich young Ruler the Law instead of Grace? Because God will never accept any form of self righteousness because it corrupts the person.
You can see it in the way the Rich young Ruler boasted in his statement...All these I have kept....which presupposes on his own strength, his own self form of righteousness. In reality nobody can do this perfectly, I believe He lied.

When you begin to understand this, then you will understand why Jesus gave the Parables of the Sheep and Goat which presupposes on one own's work because the Pharisee and the Teachers of the Law was there when He spoke of this in

Matthew 26
1 When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2“As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.”

3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4and they schemed to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him. 5“But not during the festival,” they said, “or there may be a riot among the people.”

The parable was meant for them. They were still alive when Jesus spoke this parable. Upon this they decided to kill him. Try and think for a moment why.

Why would God give something like this? Remember that the parable of Sheep and Goat in way will make you question, how many times do I need to do this? One time is enough? 3 Times? 10 Times? If 1 time is enough, doesn't seem fair to those who have constantly help others. If 30 times is enough, how do I keep track perfectly? It can become insincere in a way. And it leads to more questions than answers.

If anyone has ears to hear, listen. In way this type of Parables is meant to make you feel helpless, Why? Why God always give this type of Parable that presupposes on own strength for Salvation.

Answer: So that you come to Him for Grace, leaving your own presuppose strength behind, to repent, to depend on Him for Mercy and Grace and the Bible assures us God is Indeed merciful and more than Gracious!

God's grace will change our life, not our own strength because anything that is of our own, usually leads to pride. (Ephesians 2:9)

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 18 2014, 05:32 PM

Oh there's something I want to ask. Who exactly are the sheep and who are the goats? Nominal christians? Folks who 'convert' for the sake of money?

i think imho, only Jesus can answer that questions. It's true that bible give a hint or baseline. But back to every individual background and education, some individual may think himself as sheep but other people think he's only goat.

2 options, sheep and Goat, and 2 validations, from Christ or not from Christ (aka devil) gives 4 combinations or outcomes. Let's see the breakdown below:

A. If you think yourself as Goat, how do you know it's not devil try not to condemn you ? telling that you are not good Christian and not "holy" enough ? It's written in Rev 12:10 (NIV)

B. If you think yourself as Goat, how can you sure that Lord Jesus put that in your heart, in order to rebuke you and correct your path ? out of HIS love HE can do this, speak and correct HIS children because it's written that HE chasten the one HE loves. (Hebrew 12:6)

C. If you think yourself as Sheep, how do you know it's not a deception from devil ? I mean devil can give you impression that you are on certain standard, but actually our Lord Jesus Christ know you are not yet HIS standard. (John 10:10)

D. If you think yourself as Sheep, how can you be sure that Lord Jesus is agreeing the definition, idea, concept, of you defining or considering yourself, as sheep ?

Only God Jesus Christ can established something deep within your spirit about how much your progress is. and give you status: either Sheep or goat. or, in this information age where word like fuzzy are common... it's quite possible that Holy Spirit gives you impression 50% sheep and 50% goat. or perhaps 40- 60, 60-40, etc...

Hope you can get the conviction from Christ himself, not from your own understanding.

This post has been edited by de1929: Jul 18 2014, 07:19 PM

that is quite abstract you thrown there. i don't see where it says I am wrong.

"29 Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;"

are we those He foreknew, and He predestinated to die like Christ? those who were will be reborn as the second, third, forth reborn and so on... Paul died persecuted. He must be one of them. ( is my interpretation wrong ? prove it.)

to live a new life in Christ, first you must die. find in Bible which say i am wrong.

there are "die" that entitled sijil kematian malaysia
and there are "die" that does not entitled sijil kematian malaysia.

what pehkay means is the second one.

@Unknown warrior
i'll reply later. yours too big and to disrespectful to answer in short.

thw only part i disagree is your first paragraph.

i believe Christ sacrifice is for everyone. The sacrifice He made to allow Him to forgive our sin transcends even the boundaries of religions. His sacrifice means He can provide His grace to literaly anyone He likes. We do not decide by our deeds that we can automatically receives His grace. It is His decision. And when He decided Malala Yousofzai would not die by the bullet shot by a Taliban to her head then it must be because He loves her, regardless of her religion.

But we still need to do the good deeds, or otherwise we are 100% suree to fail in his selection.

i believe we should not create layers upon layers of hidden meanings that can create even more confusion. We take the meaning as 10 yrs old would have taken to believe when first time reading the Bible.

Technically speaking, referring to the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law and also those who reject God's grace.

You can say, The Rich young Ruler is an example of this parable, the one who asked "What must I do to inherit Eternal Life? As you know, It's not DO,
but Faith or Believe in the one who died at the cross. When you measure Salvation by your Performance, Jesus will bring out the Perfect Law of God.
God preposition is that if you want to live by it, you can BUT make sure you are PAR Excellence and can abide by it perfectly. (James 2:10, Galatians 5:3-4)
And you know in reality that is not possible and unrealistic. God knows this but Man is too stubborn to admit it. That is why He gave the Law to bring us to the end of ourselves. Those who understand this will say, This is not possible, I need your Grace God, be merciful. Those who don't see it will say "I can do this, no problem. Just like the young Rich Ruler quoted "All this I HAVE KEPT (smudgily), emphasis is on own self.

Sometime some of us may exhibit the same thought mentality, after Saved by Grace, I need to be careful how I live, Walk Righteously so that I AM righteous and not fall into sin, not realizing that person have mixed up Law and Grace together, when The Bible is clear there can be no mixture, it's either Grace or Works. There's no in between. We are righteous not because of our conduct, we are righteous because we choose to believe and God credit Righteousness as a GIFT because of our Faith. Those who choose to trust God's grace completely will be more at ease and can rest in Christ compare to those who don't because there's is always this element of uncertainty due to our imperfect performance.

If notice in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, both the righteous and the Wicked did not know when they did good works. Both are at loss when they did it and when they didn't do it. Notice the key difference? If you can understand this, God is saying, If you want to be measure by Works, you will never know if you did enough or When you have missed it. And it's scary because no one can actually keep proper record of his own conduct. A person can do good works to someone and YET also missed out on another one by not doing anything. When you have both works judged against you, which one cancels out the other and by how much? More question than answers. The whole point is, there's no certainty in doing good works to justify for Salvation.

The Parable is given so that those who can understand that it is hopeless to be judge by good works will come to the end of themselves and come to God for Grace and Mercy. Unfortunately the Pharisee and Teachers of the Law were too stiff neck to accept that and conspire to kill Jesus for saying that Parable against them.

The rest of the lengthy passages has very much to do with the first paragraph, they are related.

Yes anyone can come to Jesus and confess that He is the only Way to God and to Eternal Life, even if He is from another religion, that is correct. God's offer of Salvation is for all but you are in error with regards to good deeds.


Ephesians 2:8-9 I(NIV)
…8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 19 2014, 12:27 AM

you sure ? there are those who boast, yes. but there are other people who will never feel their good deeds are good enough for salvation, due to the sins they carry and keep doing.

what about those who perform good deeds out of their desire not because they want any reward whatsoever ? they do it because of their enormous empathy towards other peope like the "uncle".

what i really mean is the good works must come from a person own inner desire and not of wanting any reward.

It's not so much about expecting some kind of payment or rewards

but in the economy of God's Salvation is has to do with establishing own Righteousness to be justified before God.

That is where the boasting part comes in.

It doesn't make much sense when you say one must do good deed in order to be 100% sure for selection and at the same time say good works is done because of inner desire not wanting any rewards. It kinda of contradict in meaning.

John 3:16 say For God so loved the world that He sent his only Son and whose ever believe in Jesus Christ will have eternal life(heaven)

the facts does not change that only through Christ you are saved that you must believe that He died on the Cross and rose again on the third day

the economy of God salvation.. some fancy words you got there

i wish i can have the same ability to speak my thought as fuently as yours.

no i did not contradict myself. there are those who volunteer to help in the recent typhoon hayan in the philipines and they do not boasts about it and these acts are what God will keep His tabs on. they come from all religions including the atheists. What drives these people to do such acts that do not benefit them in any way ? must be siomething from within them.