Why don't you discuss proper?

instead on going ad hominen?

Not just persecuted church. It was dirt poor materially as well.

yet Jesus called them rich.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write ; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive ; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich)

The word poverty here in greek is Ptocheia which means beggars, the condition of one destitute of riches and abundance.

Goes to show the gospel of Wealth is false.

Well, not to make a point of it .... when a group of people is persecuted ... they usually come to poverty and death History shows this.

I don't think God is against our wealth. Just that, we need to reminded to remember the poor, honor Him with our wealth, not to be greedy, not to let money be our master. Just like what the bible says, LOVE of money is the root of all evil, not money itself.

Recently, I can see this has become so real in my personal life. Property agent will do anything including changing owner's handphone number, so that no one will call the owner directly. Then advertise the same and then call owner so that they can earn that commission.

Even for myself even though I don't do the above, I fell into another sin which related to money too.

Indeed love of the money is the root of all evil. Let's guard our heard from it.

This post has been edited by ngaisteve1: Sep 5 2014, 04:44 PM

Just to add.

I believe God gives wealth so that you can start helping others.
You can't give from what you lack. Common Sense.
If you know God word, He's okay, in fact He delights in the well being of his servants.

The Church of Smyrna was commended because they stood fast despite being persecuted. (Thanks Pehkay for the insight)
Not because Jesus wanted them to be poor or commended that they should be poor.

It's a no brainer statement to think that it is because if that is true than one can say that the Bible also encourages Slavery or Rebellion against Father and Mother.

This is call twisting out of context.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 5 2014, 05:01 PM

Amen

Common sense doesn't work with God. He is a God of the impossible. Our ways are not His ways.
Otherwise common sense tells us that Jesus should have chosen scribes to preach His gospel, not fishermen and tax collectors!

Don't try to read out of the context out of Smryna. Jesus called them rich in spite of their poor conditions. was He trying to be funny?
No. But that Jesus recognises their beggary but yet their heart is rich towards Him and commended them.

If these church of Smryna appeared before wealth gospel preachers they will proclaim that God's curse is upon them as they were poor!
But no, its not the material riches that demonstrates that God is in their lives, but the richness of their hearts towards God in spite of their poverty.

Therefore, to say that God wants you to be rich materially is a false premise.

Thanks for the invitation. I wish i can discuss with you but If Jesus instruct me not to discuss with prophetjul then i have to obey Jesus first. sorry about that.

I wrote what i hear from Jesus. Period. If i add something, then i will write in my opinion... this..that...

I have only one verse that I got from Jesus. The one is not with me is against me. Luke 11:13.

then prophetjul replies about money..money..money.. and give negative credits to Israel Houston charging people for few RM.

I ask Jesus and I give evaluation to Lord Jesus that prophetjul is inappropriate. But, what do you think ? I asked Lord Jesus myself. Then Lord Jesus replies that somebody that keep hurting the body of Christ, will deal with the husband himself, which is... Jesus Christ.

Saul has good intention, but if JESUS asked why you persecuted me ? i believe Jesus is not happy regardless good intention or not.

Therefore I wrote: Keep hurting body of Christ and confirm Christ will not be happy. Don't damage yourself. Repent !

That's all i have.

IGNOReD

what about others? Maybe the rest can share your perspective

he was replying to my post, i am not against Israel houghton coming to play concert in malaysia in fact i support it but to the matter of fact about the price of the ticket is costly and seating not really that an enjoyable view as well which i condemn Glad tidings assembly of God for raking so much money when come to christian concert and to add to the salt the parking at plaza mayang is not cheap either rm 10 per entry on the concert night it self

Greetings!

I kinda stumbled upon an article which I feel compelled to put it here, otherwise I wouldn't be here. It is 100% the same as what I believe, in case someone wonders what kind of teaching I am following.. hehe.

Once upon a time I had an argument with a false teacher, who thought that Salvation is free and easy.... and his followers are blindly following him, cuz he is their Jesus. LOL.

So here it goes...

Wait b4 that, if anyone wants to shoot me later, I say don't bother. I am uninterested to argue no more. I'll say adios to you all, I am following the narrow and difficult path, you all adament to follow the broad and popular path, so there is no reason to argue anymore.

~~~~~~~

ELECTION UNTO SALVATION:

A HATED DOCTRINE IN CHURCHIANITY
by Daniel E. Parks

Modern Churchianity is a perversion of Biblical Christianity. Whereas Christianity is founded upon Christ, Churchianity is founded upon churches and denominations. And whereas Christianity resorts to Holy Scriptures for its beliefs, Churchianity resorts to its creeds and confessions. Churchianity therefore denies many of the doctrines of Christ and the Scriptures.

One of the foremost examples of such a Biblical doctrine denied, and even despised by Churchianity is that of election unto salvation. This doctrine teaches that God, before the foundation of the world, for His own glory and through His free and sovereign grace, predestined a host of unworthy sinners to salvation who otherwise would not have been saved.

Many of Churchianity's ministers deny that the doctrine of election unto salvation is found in Holy Scriptures. One must therefore conclude that they have never read the Bible!

We read in Ephesians 1:1-6 concerning the "saints ... and faithful in Christ Jesus": "... the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ... chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace ...." And we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 concerning these same believers in Jesus Christ: "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation ...."

We read of "the purpose of God according to election" in Romans 9:11; of "the election of grace" in Romans 11:5; that "the elect have obtained [grace]" in Romans 11:7; of "election by God" in 1 Thessalonians 1:4; that "the elect ... may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus" in 2 Timothy 2:10; that believers are called "the elect of God" in Colossians 3:12; of "the faith of God's elect" in Titus 1:1; that Christians are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" in 1 Peter 1:2; of the people of God being a "chosen generation" in 1 Peter 2:9; of "calling and election" in 2 Peter 1:10; that the children of God are "called, chosen, and faithful" in Revelation 17:14; and of the futility of raising "a charge against God's elect" in Romans 8:33.

God declares in Isaiah 65:9 that "My elect shall inherit [My mountains]." And God declares in Isaiah 65:22 that "My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."

Jesus Christ declares in Matthew 20:16 and 22:14 that "many are called, but few are chosen"; and in Mark 13:20 that "the elect" are those "whom [the Lord] chose"; and in John 13:18 that "I know whom I have chosen." Jesus Christ says of His disciples in John 15:19 that "I have chosen you out of the world"; and in John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you." Jesus Christ declares in Matthew 24:31 that He will at the last day "gather together His elect"; and in Luke 18:7 that "God [will] avenge His own elect." Perhaps Jesus Christ warns us of Churchianity's ministers when He declares in Matthew 24:24 that "false christs and false prophets" will try "to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

Election unto salvation is certainly a Biblical doctrine!

Many of Churchianity's ministers aver that the doctrine of election unto salvation is a "damnable heresy." Their assertion would make God and His ministers "damnable heretics," since God has revealed this doctrine and His ministers teach it.

And far from being a "damnable heresy," the doctrine of election unto salvation is a blessed truth. Remember that Paul the apostle in Ephesians 1:3f included election unto salvation among the "spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ"; and that he was in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "bound to give thanks to God always" for election unto salvation. The psalmist David therefore wrote in Psalm 65:4, "Blessed is the man whom You choose, and cause to approach You, that he may dwell in your courts."

Many of Churchianity's ministers who admit that election unto salvation is a Biblical doctrine refuse to teach it because, they say, "It is too deep and dark a subject." In saying it is too dark a subject, they admit that they themselves are devoid of spiritual light to teach it. In saying it is too deep a subject, they declare that their own congregants are too shallow-minded to understand it. Such ministers and congregants will therefore be unable to obey the exhortation in 2 Peter 1:10 to "be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure."

Many of Churchianity's ministers who admit that election unto salvation is a Biblical doctrine aver that it has no place in preaching and evangelism. To the contrary, Paul the apostle began his evangelistic message recorded in Acts 13:16ff by saying ".....The God of this people Israel chose our fathers ...." And surely Paul included the doctrine of election unto salvation when he declared in Acts 20:27, "I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God."

Many of Churchianity's ministers who admit that election unto salvation is a Biblical doctrine aver that the teaching of it hinders church growth. This is true only in the building of their sort of churches, those in which one of the most integral doctrines of God's Word is denied and despised. This doctrine did not hinder the growth of apostolic churches.

Many of Churchianity's ministers who admit that election unto salvation is a Biblical doctrine deny that we may know who the elect are. They are certainly wrong.

Peter the apostle addressed his first epistle to persons he knew to be "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Peter 1:2); and assured them that they were "a chosen generation" (2:9); and wrote also of "She who is in Babylon, elect together with you" (5:13). And Peter admonished his readers to "make your calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10). John the apostle addressed his second epistle to one whom he knew to be an "elect lady" (2 John v.1), and assured her that "The children of your elect sister greet you" (v.13). Paul the apostle was personally assured that "The God of our fathers has chosen you" (Acts 22:14). And Paul wrote an epistle to persons of whom he said, "knowing, beloved, your election by God" (1 Thessalonians 1:4). In another epistle Paul requested his readers to "Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord" (Romans 16:14). Luke wrote of "the apostles whom [Jesus] had chosen" (Acts 1:2). We may indeed know who are God's chosen people!

Why do Churchianity's ministers deny and even despise the doctrine of election unto salvation? Because this doctrine abases the pride of man and exalts the grace of God. This truth was expressed in a hymn by Joseph Hart (18th century):


Why so offensive in their eyes
Does God's election seem?
Because they think themselves so wise
That they have chosen Him.....
"Election!" 'tis a word divine;
For, Lord, I plainly see,
Had not Thy choice preceded mine,
I ne'er had chosen Thee.


In order to believe and love this doctrine, one must acknowledge that Jesus Christ spoke the truth when He declared in John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you." Such a believer and lover of the truth will not hesitate to sing the hymn of Josiah Condor (1856):


'Tis not that I did choose Thee,
For, Lord, that could not be,
This heart would still refuse Thee,
But Thou hast chosen me:
Thou from the sin that stained me
Washed me and set me free,
And to this end ordained me,
That I should live to Thee.

'Twas sovereign mercy called me,
And taught my op'ning mind;
The world had else enthralled me,
To heav'nly beauties blind.
My heart owns none above Thee;
For Thy rich grace I thirst;
This knowing, if I love Thee,
Thou must have loved me first.

Do you rejoice in the Biblical doctrine of election unto salvation?

~~~~~~~~

Link Here

..Just need to add some more.

I found another article of the same person. I begin to like this guy. He teaches the same thing that I truly believe in. Keep in mind, the last argument I had with the so called 'preacher' here was all come from within my own thought. No reference whatsoever from any source except the Bible (of course God was responsible to that). Until I found this guy...

~~~~~~

FREE-WILLISM PREACHES "ANOTHER JESUS"
by Daniel Parks

2 Corinthians 11:4
He who... preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached


The Jesus of Free-Willism, unlike the Jesus of gospel preachers, does not possess the love of God. Preachers of Free-Willism aver God loves everyone in exactly the same way. They therefore indiscriminately tell their hearers what no gospel preacher in Scriptures ever said: "Smile, God loves you." And they preach what no gospel preacher in Scriptures every preached: "God loves you so much He chose you for salvation, but the devil hates you so much he chose you for damnation, and you must of your own free will cast the deciding vote. And Jesus Christ loves everyone so much he died for all their sins."

The God of Free-Willism is therefore not the God of Holy Scriptures and gospel preachers. The true God does not love everyone in the same way. Rather, He hates those who go to the grave in rebellion against Him. "For you are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, nor shall evil dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand in your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man" (Psalm 5:4-6).

And the true God has a special love for His own people. These are they whom He of His free and sovereign grace, apart from any merit of any kind in them, chose and predestined for salvation before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:3-6; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). They are called the Israel of God in the New Testament. God says of them, "Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you" (Jeremiah 31:3).

Preachers of Free-Willism aver their Jesus loves and died for everyone. But gospel preachers declare of the true Jesus, "Christ loved the church and gave himself for it!" He did not waste a single drop of His redeeming blood for those who will never submit to Him.

~~~~~~~~

I wonder how many of you all 'christians' believe in the free-willism. I can remember very clearly you all disagree with all my previous comments about God not loving everyone. Yeah keep doing so.. like I care.. LOL.

Anyway, adious... this is my last post here. Or so I think. heh.

Gee ... I think that is what most of us, if not all, believe that God chose and predestinated us unto salvation.



This post has been edited by pehkay: Sep 5 2014, 10:16 PM

what other perspective leh?

prophetjul gave an clear example of the Church of Smyrna (commended by the Lord) who are materially poor, but spiritually rich & lots of funny answers come out.

it is an undeniable fact that some christian concerts do charge exorbitant prices.

they can claim all they want about being non-profit organizations, donate to charity, etc, but the fact of the matter is, it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth of even believers. How do the non-believers view this/us? On par with secular concert prices leh.........

personally, i'm turned off by the prices. i find it all too gimmicky for my liking. So i don't attend.

It's a nice post and thanks for sharing the value of your Christianity. At least now me, ngaisteve and UW don't think you have "other religion".

I called this your conviction.

What i believe, that Daniel E. Parks also don't want any Christian without Church. I have been studying many preachers / teaching, 100% advises must attend a church. They called it "local church".

Have you find church that share same values with you ?
you still need somebody to speak to your live if you are not doing Matthew 20:16 and 22:14,
if there is false Christ (Matthew 24:24) ... you have friends / leaders to share what do you think about A,B,C,D preacher this and that...

Last time i recalled you said dun wanna go to church cuz still sinful and struggling, i think: prophetjul don't agree with this in addition to me, ngaisteve1 and UW....

@prophetjul, cmiiwr :-) maybe he can grow in your church ? we are talking about a soul here.

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

which church you guys goes to? myself is central Christian church of Malaysia. it's a non denominations church. already 16 years

mine is small EVANGELICAL FREE CHURCH in klang