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 Panasonic Lumix/eCam Series Discussion, Introduced MOIS, 3CCD, 12x f/2.8 Leica

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JDream
post Aug 12 2006, 10:39 AM

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Hello there,

Nice forum. I'm also interested in the FZ-7 (hope to be a future user).

ANW what do you guys seriously think of the noise issue? That seems to be the only major problem bugging this particular camera.

Please do share your views on the camera, cos I am also thinking of getting one.

Thanks!
JDream
post Aug 14 2006, 09:04 AM

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Went to the PC fair yesterday. Saw the last FZ-7 model sold there. The guys told me they were from Harvey Norman.

Unfortunately there was no discount and it only came with a 512MB card, so I only tested the camera.

To me, the ISO 100 and 400 looks almost the same. Sorry but I'm new to photography here, so maybe I still need some time for my eyes to go "pro" tongue.gif

Went hunting around, saw the S3 IS and the newest Pentax dSLR. Sold for RM2599.

Oh btw if you guys walked a bit on, there was this stall selling camera pouches (same stall selling the RM19 tripods). I saw the Lumix FZ-7 pouch there for RM8.

But nvm la, saw lots of lovely cun promoters there hehe.
JDream
post Aug 14 2006, 01:56 PM

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Haha. Actually I was also thinking of that. Love the Leica lenses and that 12x zoom really got my interest yesterday.

Sorry bro but I did not take my camera yesterday there. But the cun promoters for every product was present. Everywhere you go, leng lui leng lui.
JDream
post Aug 15 2006, 10:14 AM

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QUOTE(aaron @ Aug 15 2006, 09:43 AM)
the size of FZ7 is just right to travel with light weight.
*
I agree with you regarding the weight. biggrin.gif

Eh want to ask those who bought the FZ-7 - does the package come with lens hood?
JDream
post Aug 17 2006, 09:35 AM

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Fellow photography friends... there's going to be a digital camera fair at Midvalley from the 16th to the 20th this month

Anyone planning to go? I'm going to check out the cameras there and see if there are any good offers. Sponsored by Shangri-La Foto.

This post has been edited by JDream: Aug 17 2006, 09:36 AM
JDream
post Aug 17 2006, 02:15 PM

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Yeah man. The lake is very nice. I took quite a few pictures, will post up later... tongue.gif

Damn I miss Taiping! Certainly a very nice place to be.
JDream
post Aug 17 2006, 03:38 PM

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Picture 01

Picture 02

Picture 03

Just a few photos I took when I went to Taiping for the first time last month tongue.gif

For the rest feel free to visit JDream's Flickr, my humble photo site.

Thanks too! smile.gif

This post has been edited by JDream: Aug 17 2006, 03:42 PM
JDream
post Aug 17 2006, 03:43 PM

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QUOTE(aaron @ Aug 17 2006, 03:40 PM)
broken link..cannot c the pic
*
Sorry mate, first time trying to publish pictures here heh tongue.gif

Link's been fixed, altho no picture appearing...
JDream
post Aug 17 2006, 03:49 PM

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Canon IXUS 50. smile.gif
JDream
post Aug 17 2006, 03:58 PM

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Haha thanks... but unfortunately only 3x optical zoom... so now thirsting for more power tongue.gif

FZ-7... Ah sweet lovely prosumer camera...
JDream
post Aug 19 2006, 09:35 AM

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QUOTE(rave @ Aug 19 2006, 03:03 AM)

dont think i can get a scenery which is so relax in msia.
*
I heard Sabah near the foot of Mt. Kinabalu has this wonderful LOTR-esque forest (ya, complete with the lichens and moss and stuff like that). In the mist, it looks just heavenly...

Plan to get meself a camera before venturing there... else doh.gif

JDream
post Aug 20 2006, 11:01 PM

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Wowee you get to see live football! Man I'd do (almost) anything to watch a live Liverpool match...

ANW, great photo bro. Keep up the enthusiasm. Mind if I ask - at that time was it going to rain?

Just curious. Thanks mate!
JDream
post Aug 24 2006, 12:29 PM

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Wow, nice humvee. Great composition of all the pictures too, siokae.
JDream
post Aug 25 2006, 09:46 AM

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I wish to go too, but no passport tongue.gif and getting one just to go there is not really worth it cos I seldom travel overseas hehe.

The Songkran festival is a good opportunity to take photos, but at the risk of getting the camera wet! tongue.gif

So how is a Thai girl like, Siokae? Wild or docile? tongue.gif
JDream
post Aug 30 2006, 02:48 PM

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Hello all,

Did not have the time to go online these few days. Well I found a few very nice tools to help us combat noise here which I would like to share with you all biggrin.gif :-

The first is the highly rated Neat Image. I've used the free version and I must say it handles noise pretty well. You can also get it here.

The second one is something called Helicon. This is a freeware and it's also not bad.

And here's the most honest and all-rounded comment by someone (I found on the Net) about the FZ-7.

QUOTE
Original article here.

Over the past three weeks I've done a lot of digital camera research. It's been six years since I purchased my first digital camera, a Panasonic PV SD4090, and I had a lot of catching up to do. Before buying the Panasonic FZ7 I tried the Panasonic LZ2 (also a good pick), the Olympus SP-350 and not one but THREE Fuji FinePix F10s, all of which failed to deliver sharp images at high ISOs despite being a number one pick in 2005 for low light performance. Having tried the "best" consumer-level, high ISO point-and-shoot camera on the market and found it wanting three times over, I was left with a limited range of cameras featuring a high ISO "boost", all of which are viewed as worthless options in the eyes of professional reviewers-e.g. people who are spoiled by dSLRs.

Early on it became clear that unless you have the hands of a surgeon, the lowest noise stats won't matter one iota if hand shake blurs your pictures. That narrowed the field down to Panasonic, Sony and Canon, which are the major players in the image stabilization category. (Fuji and others claim to offer IS, but instead of a gyroscope they provide high ISO substitutes, which, in the absence of manual controls, does not increase the shutter speed sufficiently to eliminate potential motion blur and camera shake.)

If you visit digital camera review sites, you will see that reviewers have mastered the art of "pixel scrutiny." Oftentimes reviewers will rely on posters of outdoor scenes - canned wall posters! - rather than venturing into the natural world. They test equipment under controlled settings using the camera's default sharpening, color and noise reduction to make their judgments. Therefore, if a camera over saturates color, for example, the average pro reviewer will disparage such a camera without testing any of the adjustment options. The same goes for noise processing, sharpening and other variables that may be fine tuned depending on model in question. Such reviewers then proceed to make impressive but impractical comparisons using crops in order to magnify all signs of noise and chromatic aberration. (If you want something to worry about though, be more concerned about CA and purple fringing, which will stand out even to the untrained eye.)

To put this into perspective, cropping a digital image to the extent and degree that so-called professional reviewers do is akin to a dermatologist taking your face and putting it under a 100x microscope only to exclaim that you that you have a poor complexion, when to anyone looking at normal face-to-face distances you have the skin of a baby or a porcelain doll. In other words, unless an image flaw is noticeable even at normal, uncropped sizes, chances are that image noise comparisons will have little, if any, real-world detriment on your photos. Unfortunately, most professional reviewers simply do not print their results. Instead, they evaluate camera performance with software and computer monitors, all of which alter the perception of color, saturation and other subjective variables. In short, there's no substitute for evaluating a camera's OUTPUT. That means PRINT.

And this brings me to pro reviewers' rubber-stamp criticism of the Panasonic FZ7 at high or even normal ISOs.

Rubbish.

As I mentioned earlier, I owned three Fuji FinePix F10s. These cameras created a CULT FOLLOWING because 400, 800 and 1600 ISOs were so effective. Yet what I saw in real-world testing was anything BUT impressive when using natural light (a scene mode with high ISOs and suppressed flash). The pictures were soft. They looked hazy. They looked imprecise. They looked out of focus. They looked bright-as-day yet dull and lifeless. Hand shake - which the high ISO was supposed to compensate for - was still very much a problem. Unfortunately, there was no image stabilization to offset the negative effects of simply pushing the shutter button. Thus, in all practicality, the F10 is a low light loser when used without a tripod or a surgeon's ultra steady grip. Consider: What does it matter if you can snap a picture in pitch black if that picture is so fuzzy that you wouldn't want to print it?

Enter the Panasonic FZ7. Some reviewers have gone so far as to say that they wouldn't use the FZ7 at ISO 200 let alone ISO 400+. They claim the noise is such that the results look like "oil paintings" and not photos. Okay. Here's the bad: Some photos DO look a bit splotchy, even those with flash (low ISOs). But here's the good: Splotchy photos are the exception and NOT the rule. This is one of the fastest cameras I have used, which means you can easily snap enough pictures in short succession to get one that is not the least bit offensive wherein noise is concerned.

All the way around the Panasonic FZ7 will focus faster - fully 2 seconds faster under low light than the Fuji F10! - and a greater percentage of photos will come out sharp and clear than your average competitor. It's all in the lens - the Leica lens, that is.

I've shot in available light using the high ISO scene boost, and while I won't be printing these pics at 13x19 on my Canon i9900 or even 8x10, high ISO photos are detailed and sharp compared to anything the three overrated Fuji FinePix F10s could produce indoors during the day with lights on and blinds open.

So let's recap. Are we to worry about "high noise" or are we going to be more concerned with a higher degree of successful pictures (non blurred, accurate focus, speedy shutter, etc.). In my case, I wanted superior optics for sharper images. Any point-and-shoot camera will produce a cliche digital camera look: a picture devoid of anything that looks like it would be sharp or rough enough to scrape a finger. Even bricks and stones come out looking airbrushed by the time your average digital camera finishes writing them to your memory card. And coming from an artist's perspective, that just isn't true to life. Only a reliable focus system and optimal optics will reproduce mood, texture and realism. And that's where the Panasonic FZ7 shines. Coupled with one of the best AUTO white balance systems I've run across - and that's including a comparison to two dSLRs - the FZ7 hits a home run. With accurate white balance comes truer color and less time processing them later. Kudos to Panasonic.

Much ado about noise? Here's my advice: Take the photos into Photoshop or a noise reduction program and strip it out if it is a problem (to my eye it is generally NOT, however). Now try that with your average Fuji FinePix F10 - meaning try to put back detail where camera shake, motion blur or in-camera noise reduction has eliminated and oblitrated it.

"Not possible," you protest?

Correct!

It's much easier to deal with a camera that will allow you to adjust noise settings - as the FZ7 will - than deal with a camera that makes all the decisions for you and ends up making your picture look soft and artificial.

In art school they tell you that if you stare at your drawing or painting too long you will be unable to see it for what it is. You might even ruin it if you continue to work after you've lost your objectivity. You MUST to step away to get a bigger perspective on what strikes you as wrong and what strikes you as right. The same goes for professional digital camera reviewers. These folks are looking at so many cameras and so many charts and so many studio lights and so many tripods and so many graphs and so many stats that they can no longer just pick up a camera and see it for what it is. What is the FZ7? A solid performer that is faster and lighter and easier to hold than just about anything else. A camera that offers simple menues and straightforward options. And did I mention a optically stabilized 12x zoom? Did I mention the ability to shoot in lossless TIF? Did I mention that unlike the Panasonic FZ20 and FZ30 this is MUCH smaller and easier to tote about? Did I mention that if you are unhappy with the color, contrast, sharpening or noise reduction you can CONTROL these factors?

If you are going to be concerned about something be concerned about a camera's battery life, optical qualities and the surety of a digital camera's auto focus system, paying particular attention to its behavior under household light and similarly dim conditions (restaurants, etc.). An outstanding auto focus system will mean the difference between obtaining that charming pic of your child at a birthday party vs. having to stand there trying to refocus until the moment is gone. By contrast, camera noise - unless you plan on printing images larger than 8x10, which you really shouldn't attempt with a 6MP anyway - is most likely a nil issue.

Get the camera. You won't regret it.


In truth, no matter what you see, all pictures go through processing first before they are released to the audience. Therefore it is safe to say that how great the camera is, there will be noise and there is no such thing as the perfect camera. tongue.gif

I agree that the Canon is a good camera, and I accept the fact that the FZ-7 does have noise, but the guy who talked to me over the counter said it is possible that the "soft" images of the Canon prevents the noise from actually "appearing", thus in reality the noise really is there.

Just my two cents. And oh, really nice pictures there I must say.
JDream
post Sep 4 2006, 10:58 AM

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Yesterday I went shopping for the FZ-7 around Bukit Bintang area. I didn't find any of the shops at Sg. Wang suiting my taste and needs. Low Yat was slightly better but that was only the Foto Shangri-La shop.

Next went over to Berjaya Times Square. A few shops like MyKamera gave me the standard price of RM1799 (everything included).

Foto Flash's offered price was RM1600 with 1GB card but no tripod. Then another shop Nepmatic gave me RM1300 (whole camera kit only excluding card and tripod).

I was pleasantly surprised by the RM1300 but I have my doubts too. After all, it could be a reconditioned set for all I know.

The last shop I went to was Bintang Maju. The fella told me it costs RM1900 there.

Therefore I would like to ask... did anyone buy his or her FZ-7 from Berjaya Times Square? What do you all think of the shops listed above?

Thanks.
JDream
post Sep 4 2006, 12:31 PM

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QUOTE(aaron @ Sep 4 2006, 11:54 AM)
so what do u mean in "everything include" ? state the MyKamera package that they offer?

my own opinion: lau ya tripod can forget it,get a better tripod. get an extra original batt, outside selling around rm180. it worth if they offer u. sd card can simply get at LYN for any brand.
*
The "everything included" package is the camera + accessories, 1gb card and a tripod.

Actually ya it's true I can forgo the tripod and hunt around for one. The Nepmatic fellow offered me a tripod for RM40 (original price stated there RM80+).

Interestingly, the FZ-7's price sticker at Nepmatic was originally labeled as "RM1888", and when I asked, he told me he is willing to give me RM1300 best price, but no card nor tripod (which I can source for externally at LY). Extra battery going for RM160 only if I buy the camera cos the usual price is RM260 or so.

Of course he was really honest in saying that those RM20+ tripods aren't really of good value (sorry, hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings ya. If I did I apologise notworthy.gif) and recommended something at least RM40 and above.

Thanks for the info shared. I hope to be able to get some more info before I make my final decision where to buy it from.
JDream
post Sep 4 2006, 04:34 PM

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QUOTE(aaron @ Sep 4 2006, 12:42 PM)
FZ7 in 1300...really great deal. u should confirm izzit a underwater or recondition. mayb is is the demo set..so they sell cheap.
if really original,u can go for it.
*
How would I make sure of that? unsure.gif After all, the guy can just simply say anything tongue.gif
JDream
post Sep 5 2006, 03:05 PM

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Indeed. Sad that no one is doing anything to enforce the rules stricter.

ANW thanks to you all for the timely advice. I'll try out the place that Gilthoniel told me about.

Must get my own before New Year's fireworks. Dying to capture the event hehe. tongue.gif
JDream
post Sep 7 2006, 02:00 PM

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Bro why selling so fast? Not up to your satisfaction?

ANW sorry to hear what happened during your trip there.

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