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> Prasarana explains why reject Penang state grant, for free peak hour bus News

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TSKampung2005
post Oct 13 2013, 10:54 PM, updated 11y ago

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http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysi...-be-bad-for-com

Prasarana rejects Penang’s RM10 million offer, says deal would be bad for company

BY EILEEN NG
OCTOBER 13, 2013

Public transport operator Syarikat Prasarana Negara Berhad (Prasarana) has rejected the Penang government’s offer of an annual RM10 million grant, hours after Chief Minister Lim Guan Eng made the overture to the financially ailing company.

Its group managing director, Datuk Shahril Mokhtar, said taking the grant in return for providing free bus services in the state during peak hours would worsen the government-linked company's financial position.

He said the company had an open book discussion with the state government where it had been pointed out that despite the grant, Prasarana would lose "much more" if free rides were offered during peak hours.

However, Shahril did not state the amount of losses it would incur.

He said the amount offered by the DAP-led state government was less than the revenue generated by Rapid Penang.

Prasarana owns and operates the RapidKL and RapidPenang bus services, as well as the LRT and monorail services.

"Lim should not manipulate this matter. We had an open discussion with the state government officials and we are still waiting the response from them," Shahril said in a media statement.

He said Prasarana is open to discussion with the state government on ways to enhance the delivery of public transport services to people in Penang.

"However, the state government must demonstrate its sincerity and earnestness in addressing the plight of the people as traffic congestion worsens in the state," he said.

Earlier today, Lim had urged Prasarana to accept Penang’s offer of RM10 million annually, saying it could defray its huge losses.

Prasarana recorded RM763 million in losses in 2011, of which RM400 million was depreciation costs and RM300 million due to heavy investment in public transportation. – October 13, 2013.
pineapplegrenade
post Oct 13 2013, 11:02 PM

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After the public transport collapse, people will blame the current state gov. Well played, well played.
SUSautoman5891
post Oct 13 2013, 11:02 PM

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Free bus will not increase useful ridership. It just means more indon, bangla, etc onboard which chases away malaysians.
AngAng26
post Oct 13 2013, 11:10 PM

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maybe 10M only for selected quotas of registrants to enjoy the facility during peak hours in designated trips? hmm.gif
pineapplegrenade
post Oct 13 2013, 11:13 PM

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QUOTE(AngAng26 @ Oct 13 2013, 11:10 PM)
maybe 10M only for selected quotas of registrants to enjoy the facility during peak hours in designated trips?  hmm.gif
*
Actually, that 10m is to save the current gov from heavy blame. Do nothing, you know what will happen. The problem now is the management of this so called Berhad company.
HuorEarfalas
post Oct 13 2013, 11:13 PM

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So Kampung. Any figure of operating cost to keep rapid penang running and the revenue generated? Figure of any given time will do.
TSKampung2005
post Oct 13 2013, 11:18 PM

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QUOTE(HuorEarfalas @ Oct 13 2013, 11:13 PM)
So Kampung. Any figure of operating cost to keep rapid penang running and the revenue generated? Figure of any given time will do.
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RapidPenang revenue was RM 43 million per year.

As much as LGE intention is noble, financially it is not doable.

This is because much of revenue was generated from peak hour, assuming to give up large portion of revenue during peak hour for RM 10 million grant, loss indeed even bigger.
don^don
post Oct 13 2013, 11:18 PM

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malaysians manyak langsi, want to jaga maruah, drive bios instead of taking bus.
hwt
post Oct 13 2013, 11:20 PM

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Well, the state government can do it alone if it wants to. Just open a few counters to reimburse concession ticket users, and in the future TnG users (TnG usage histories are available on the web). Then it will be able to gauge how much is needed.
HuorEarfalas
post Oct 13 2013, 11:20 PM

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QUOTE(Kampung2005 @ Oct 14 2013, 12:18 AM)
RapidPenang revenue was RM 43 million per year.

As much as LGE intention is noble, financially it is not doable.

This is because much of revenue was generated from peak hour, assuming to give up large portion of revenue during peak hour for RM 10 million grant, loss indeed even bigger.
*
thanks... what is the operating expenditure for rapidpenang?
TSKampung2005
post Oct 13 2013, 11:23 PM

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QUOTE(HuorEarfalas @ Oct 13 2013, 11:20 PM)
thanks... what is the operating expenditure for rapidpenang?
*
Hard to find the data.

However, they record loss of RM 12 million every year.
HuorEarfalas
post Oct 13 2013, 11:25 PM

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QUOTE(Kampung2005 @ Oct 14 2013, 12:23 AM)
Hard to find the data.

However, they record loss of RM 12 million every year.
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12mil loss from rapidpenang alone?

did u get the figures from the annual reports from prasarana??
stinger82
post Oct 13 2013, 11:25 PM

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free bus in penang not doable.

but free bus from klcc to sgwang is doable.


doh.gif
pineapplegrenade
post Oct 13 2013, 11:26 PM

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QUOTE(hwt @ Oct 13 2013, 11:20 PM)
Well, the state government can do it alone if it wants to.  Just open a few counters to reimburse concession ticket users, and in the future TnG users (TnG usage histories are available on the web).  Then it will be able to gauge how much is needed.
*
At what cost? Expenditure is out from state treasury. People will complain if you use about let say 50 mil per year to help ONE ailing company.
TSKampung2005
post Oct 13 2013, 11:30 PM

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QUOTE(HuorEarfalas @ Oct 13 2013, 11:25 PM)
12mil loss from rapidpenang alone?

did u get the figures from the annual reports from prasarana??
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Annual report from Prasarana is hard to find, so let's what I can find.
TSKampung2005
post Oct 13 2013, 11:32 PM

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QUOTE(stinger82 @ Oct 13 2013, 11:25 PM)
free bus in penang not doable.

but free bus from klcc to sgwang is doable.
doh.gif
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This is because free bus in KL (GO KL City Bus) is much more limited in scope than the proposed free peak hour bus, for whole state in Penang.

Hmmm, by the way, Penang government does pay to Rapid Penang to run similar service (same as KLCC-Bkt Bintang) such as the Central Area Transit (CAT) bus around George Town.
Flaming_lion
post Oct 13 2013, 11:32 PM

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Clearly DAP doesn't understand how to run a business. Prasarana is right here. Free buses are not sustainable. We must stop this "we need welfare" mentality. Buses should be privatized, and ensure that they are profit motivated.
hwt
post Oct 13 2013, 11:32 PM

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QUOTE(pineapplegrenade @ Oct 13 2013, 11:26 PM)
At what cost? Expenditure is out from state treasury. People will complain if you use about let say 50 mil per year to help ONE ailing company.
*
It is meant for helping to make traveling by bus attractive (because the financial cost to commuters will be zero), which I suppose is the original intention of the 10 million MYR grant.
stinger82
post Oct 13 2013, 11:34 PM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 13 2013, 11:32 PM)
Clearly DAP doesn't understand how to run a business. Prasarana is right here. Free buses are not sustainable. We must stop this "we need welfare" mentality. Buses should be privatized, and ensure that they are profit motivated.
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no point benefit banggalah
Flaming_lion
post Oct 13 2013, 11:35 PM

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QUOTE(stinger82 @ Oct 13 2013, 11:34 PM)
no point benefit banggalah
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Companies are not charities. So, even with Malaysians, no reason to make it cheap for them.
pineapplegrenade
post Oct 13 2013, 11:36 PM

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QUOTE(hwt @ Oct 13 2013, 11:32 PM)
It is meant for helping to make traveling by bus attractive (because the financial cost to commuters will be zero), which I suppose is the original intention of the 10 million MYR grant.
*
Yep. But then again, going more than 10m is going to be hard. Malaysian is not keen to use public transport. Not only that, our public transport is unreliable as it is.
TSKampung2005
post Oct 13 2013, 11:36 PM

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Direct rebate for local people who use bus is a good idea though.
stinger82
post Oct 13 2013, 11:38 PM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 13 2013, 11:35 PM)
Companies are not charities. So, even with Malaysians, no reason to make it cheap for them.
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stinger82
post Oct 13 2013, 11:41 PM

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1. not local doesnt like taking public transport
2. not local cannot afford taking public transport

reason
1. maybe PT not reliable, cannot make it on time.
2. maybe PT coverage is not good enough.

Detail
1. why not reliable? not enough buses? why not enough buses? not profitable to have more buses? or maybe dont have enough driver? or maybe traffic condition is preventing the bus to make it on time? well, if car owner will be late to work due to jam, buses would be even worse, right?

2. why coverage is not good? because some places nobody is taking PT, why? because its late, its slow etc etc. its a chicken and egg thing.

so, basically, its not going to solve it.


hwt
post Oct 13 2013, 11:42 PM

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QUOTE(pineapplegrenade @ Oct 13 2013, 11:36 PM)
Yep. But then again, going more than 10m is going to be hard. Malaysian is not keen to use public transport. Not only that, our public transport is unreliable as it is.
*
If there are limited commuters, there will be limited reimbursements. Reimbursements will be high only if usage is high. Anyway, when consumer behaviors have changed noticeably (switching from private to public transport), it can adjust the rule, so that reimbursements will then be limited to needy commuters, thereby limiting the cost to the state. Unless the 10 million MYR estimate is really too little to cater to the initial usage.

To avoid wastage caused by a sudden surge in the number of concession ticket users who under-utilize the system, it can start reimbursements only at the third consecutive month of owning such a ticket.

This post has been edited by hwt: Oct 13 2013, 11:48 PM
HuorEarfalas
post Oct 13 2013, 11:44 PM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 14 2013, 12:32 AM)
Clearly DAP doesn't understand how to run a business. Prasarana is right here. Free buses are not sustainable. We must stop this "we need welfare" mentality. Buses should be privatized, and ensure that they are profit motivated.
*
I disagree with the bolded statement.

Public transport of any kind should be managed by one public body. The public body can in turn be controlled by a federal body, or a state authority, or local councils or any other form of government agency.

This post has been edited by HuorEarfalas: Oct 13 2013, 11:45 PM
pineapplegrenade
post Oct 13 2013, 11:44 PM

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QUOTE(hwt @ Oct 13 2013, 11:42 PM)
If there are limited commuters, there will be limited reimbursements.  Reimbursements will be high only if usage is high.  Anyway, when consumer behaviors have changed noticeably (switching from private to public transport), it can adjust the rule, so that reimbursements will then be limited to needy commuters, thereby limiting the cost to the state.  Unless the 10 million MYR estimate is really too little to cater to the initial usage.
*
Changing perception of local commuters will take decades. After living along with unreliable public transport, not even a shred of trust left. By that time, this company gone kaput already.
Flaming_lion
post Oct 13 2013, 11:48 PM

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QUOTE(HuorEarfalas @ Oct 13 2013, 11:44 PM)
I disagree with the bolded statement.

Public transport of any kind should be managed by one public body. The public body can in turn be controlled by a federal body, or a state authority, or local councils or any other form of government agency.
*
Then, expect it to be inefficient, costly and this will definitely lead to wastage. Public bodies are ineffective. No reason why my tax money should go into a public body for the benefit of those wanting to use the bus. If you want bus, finance it yourself. I suggest Penang gov, if they have any spine at all, to start taxing 30% of Penangite's income who are demanding the bus service to finance the free buses. If they don't want the buses, let them suffer and pay for cars.

Whatever it is, do not touch my money.
gheyfriend
post Oct 13 2013, 11:56 PM

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Bro.. U must understand the pg gomen... Every problem is connected to each other..v respect everyone view but in the end v hv to trust those ppl tat v vote for


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 13 2013, 11:48 PM)
Then, expect it to be inefficient, costly and this will definitely lead to wastage. Public bodies are ineffective. No reason why my tax money should go into a public body for the benefit of those wanting to use the bus. If you want bus, finance it yourself. I suggest Penang gov, if they have any spine at all, to start taxing 30% of Penangite's income who are demanding the bus service to finance the free buses. If they don't want the buses, let them suffer and pay for cars.

Whatever it is, do not touch my money.
*
Flaming_lion
post Oct 14 2013, 12:00 AM

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QUOTE(gheyfriend @ Oct 13 2013, 11:56 PM)
Bro.. U must understand the pg gomen... Every problem is connected to each other..v respect everyone view but in the end v hv to trust those ppl tat v vote for
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They voted for rubbish. Clearly.
Lord Tiki Mick
post Oct 14 2013, 12:06 AM

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QUOTE(stinger82 @ Oct 13 2013, 11:41 PM)
1. not local doesnt like taking public transport
2. not local cannot afford taking public transport

reason
1. maybe PT not reliable, cannot make it on time.
2. maybe PT coverage is not good enough.

Detail
1. why not reliable? not enough buses? why not enough buses? not profitable to have more buses? or maybe dont have enough driver? or maybe traffic condition is preventing the bus to make it on time? well, if car owner will be late to work due to jam, buses would be even worse, right?

2. why coverage is not good? because some places nobody is taking PT, why? because its late, its slow etc etc. its a chicken and egg thing.

so, basically, its not going to solve it.
*
It's slow because they reduce the frequency. Why? Because nobody's taking public there. unsure.gif

Usually rapid buses have higher frequency early in the day, 6-10 am (based on my place), afterwards, you'd have to wait longer. Anyhow, you wouldn't be late if you manage your time well and you know their schedule as well as the estimated time for you to reach your office, considering congestion. smile.gif
HuorEarfalas
post Oct 14 2013, 12:08 AM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 14 2013, 12:48 AM)
Then, expect it to be inefficient, costly and this will definitely lead to wastage. Public bodies are ineffective. No reason why my tax money should go into a public body for the benefit of those wanting to use the bus. If you want bus, finance it yourself. I suggest Penang gov, if they have any spine at all, to start taxing 30% of Penangite's income who are demanding the bus service to finance the free buses. If they don't want the buses, let them suffer and pay for cars.

Whatever it is, do not touch my money.
*
Unfortunately for you good sir, the government decides how they want to spend your taxes.

Not all public bodies are ineffective. Transport for London is one such example. The idea is to get the right people to manage it. Privatisation doesn't guarantee that.
stinger82
post Oct 14 2013, 12:09 AM

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QUOTE(Lord Tiki Mick @ Oct 14 2013, 12:06 AM)
It's slow because they reduce the frequency. Why? Because nobody's taking public there. unsure.gif

Usually rapid buses have higher frequency early in the day, 6-10 am (based on my place), afterwards, you'd have to wait longer. Anyhow, you wouldn't be late if you manage your time well and you know their schedule as well as the estimated time for you to reach your office, considering congestion. smile.gif
*
its a chicken and egg thing laugh.gif


Lord Tiki Mick
post Oct 14 2013, 12:10 AM

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QUOTE(stinger82 @ Oct 14 2013, 12:09 AM)
its a chicken and egg thing  laugh.gif
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laugh.gif rclxms.gif rclxms.gif
TSKampung2005
post Oct 14 2013, 12:12 AM

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QUOTE(stinger82 @ Oct 14 2013, 12:09 AM)
its a chicken and egg thing  laugh.gif
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Agreed smile.gif
aminpro
post Oct 14 2013, 12:18 AM

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HuorEarfalas
post Oct 14 2013, 12:20 AM

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QUOTE(Eralus @ Oct 14 2013, 01:13 AM)
still its better than fully gomen
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And then happens should the private companies default?

Here's an idea: Get local councils to form a public body to manage the city's public transportation. Subcontract the maintenance and fault repairs to private companies.

This post has been edited by HuorEarfalas: Oct 14 2013, 12:21 AM
dplaya
post Oct 14 2013, 09:01 AM

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A public transport should never be privatise. Enough said.
Skidd Chung
post Oct 14 2013, 09:25 AM

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Private bus companies who are only concerned with profits while not answering to a public body will only ply profitable routes. And they will ignore most of the other routes where the ridership is low unless they are compensated to do so.

Actually I don't see the reason for this RM10mil grant. It will never cover the costs since peak hour ridership is where the profits are made. By limiting the amount of revenue they can make in the condition they provide free rides during peak hour doesn't make sense business wise.

Unless the RM10mil is to increase coverage areas or increase frequency of buses then yes, it makes sense as it compensates the company to ply the un-profitable routes and also un-profitable timings.


Edit:
Ultimately, town planners should have an important position in public transport systems and decisions.

This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Oct 14 2013, 09:29 AM
jolmy
post Oct 14 2013, 09:39 AM

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I shall suggest that the Federal Government hands over their authority on public transportation to state governments. Hence, the Penang state govt or any state govts for that matter, can provide and manage their public bus services, build MRT/LRT/monorail/BRT/tram lines, etc.

If the transportation goes crosses into another state, e.g. buses between Penang & Kedah (especially to areas like Kulim) or in the case of Klang Valley which involves KL, Selangor & probably Negeri Sembilan as well, then the Federal Govt can act as a mediator with all the state govts involved (KL is under Federal anyway).
TSKampung2005
post Oct 14 2013, 09:44 AM

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QUOTE(jolmy @ Oct 14 2013, 09:39 AM)
I shall suggest that the Federal Government hands over their authority on public transportation to state governments. Hence, the Penang state govt or any state govts for that matter, can provide and manage their public bus services, build MRT/LRT/monorail/BRT/tram lines, etc.
*
I strongly agree with this. State government should be able to decide this matter without referring to Putrajaya.

However, I think the model should be like this.

Assets (buses, depots) owned by state government, while actual service is tendered (run by private sector).
roystevenung
post Oct 14 2013, 09:54 AM

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QUOTE(don^don @ Oct 13 2013, 11:18 PM)
malaysians manyak langsi, want to jaga maruah, drive bios instead of taking bus.
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You butthurt we got too many free highways ke?
jolmy
post Oct 14 2013, 09:59 AM

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QUOTE(Kampung2005 @ Oct 14 2013, 09:44 AM)
Assets (buses, depots) owned by state government, while actual service is tendered (run by private sector).
*
Well, that is a good idea, but when it comes to tender, the open tender system (like what is practiced in Penang) is required. biggrin.gif
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post Oct 14 2013, 10:08 AM

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QUOTE(jolmy @ Oct 14 2013, 09:39 AM)
I shall suggest that the Federal Government hands over their authority on public transportation to state governments. Hence, the Penang state govt or any state govts for that matter, can provide and manage their public bus services, build MRT/LRT/monorail/BRT/tram lines, etc.

If the transportation goes crosses into another state, e.g. buses between Penang & Kedah (especially to areas like Kulim) or in the case of Klang Valley which involves KL, Selangor & probably Negeri Sembilan as well, then the Federal Govt can act as a mediator with all the state govts involved (KL is under Federal anyway).
*
Impossible as we live in Malaysia where federal gov try to take control of everything.
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post Oct 14 2013, 10:21 AM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 13 2013, 11:32 PM)
Clearly DAP doesn't understand how to run a business. Prasarana is right here. Free buses are not sustainable. We must stop this "we need welfare" mentality. Buses should be privatized, and ensure that they are profit motivated.
*
Ha Interesting. Unfortunately, you should check your facts. These public transportation companies were private before. LRT, STAR,Monorail, Intrakota bla bla bla. Just wiki please. All these private companies loose shit loads of money. So govt bailed them out. Kroni walked away smiling. So still want to repeat failed experiment? flex.gif

Perhaps the only privatization that will work is if we allow private tuk tuk and kapcai teksi. After all Thailand, Indonesia and probably Philipines has them, why we better then them ah? whistling.gif
marvin68
post Oct 14 2013, 12:13 PM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 13 2013, 11:35 PM)
Companies are not charities. So, even with Malaysians, no reason to make it cheap for them.
*
for normal companies yes, for GLCs no.
already using people's money but don't want to serve them, then what for need help from gov?
see MAS everyday got bail out, using whose money? in the end still using tax money.
now you want to use tax money to earn more money from rakyat? so good deal where can i find ya?
abcde90
post Oct 14 2013, 12:22 PM

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its not feasible for underground lrt?

at least in the heritage area... The rest is elevated tracks. the lrt must serve the industrial areas in pulau ad well as those in seberang.




HuorEarfalas
post Oct 14 2013, 01:31 PM

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QUOTE(jolmy @ Oct 14 2013, 10:39 AM)
I shall suggest that the Federal Government hands over their authority on public transportation to state governments. Hence, the Penang state govt or any state govts for that matter, can provide and manage their public bus services, build MRT/LRT/monorail/BRT/tram lines, etc.

If the transportation goes crosses into another state, e.g. buses between Penang & Kedah (especially to areas like Kulim) or in the case of Klang Valley which involves KL, Selangor & probably Negeri Sembilan as well, then the Federal Govt can act as a mediator with all the state govts involved (KL is under Federal anyway).
*
I agree, but we would need a tax structural reform. If state obtain its fund from federal to finance its operating expenditure, they're still at the PutraJaya's mercy. Unfortunately for taxpayers, a structured federal tax, state tax and council tax are needed.
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post Oct 14 2013, 02:00 PM

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If its free at only peak times, expect the pg'ites to only use the bus when it's free and not at other times.
jolmy
post Oct 14 2013, 02:35 PM

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QUOTE(HuorEarfalas @ Oct 14 2013, 01:31 PM)
I agree, but we would need a tax structural reform. If state obtain its fund from federal to finance its operating expenditure, they're still at the PutraJaya's mercy. Unfortunately for taxpayers, a structured federal tax, state tax and council tax are needed.
*
True, one way to go about it as, for e.g. the income tax. We shall make it that a certain fixed percentage (say, 30%) of income tax paid shall be distributed to the state government, based on the registered address of the tax payer. The same shall be applied to other taxes such as corporate tax, etc.

Hence, if more Penangites & Selangorians pay income tax, the more in terms of amount these two state govts get their 30% share.

NOTE: 30% is just a figure I simply pluck from the air. I shall leave it to the experts to calculate the fair percentage.
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post Oct 14 2013, 02:46 PM

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Problem is with our mentality. Naik bas = takde kelas. Cars = social status. Pipu judge other pipu by what cars they drive. Not having a car, even worse.
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post Oct 14 2013, 02:53 PM

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QUOTE(Kampung2005 @ Oct 14 2013, 09:44 AM)
However, I think the model should be like this.
Assets (buses, depots) owned by state government, while actual service is tendered (run by private sector).
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Are there any successful examples of such models inside or outside Malaysia?

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post Oct 14 2013, 03:10 PM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 13 2013, 11:48 PM)
Then, expect it to be inefficient, costly and this will definitely lead to wastage. Public bodies are ineffective. No reason why my tax money should go into a public body for the benefit of those wanting to use the bus. If you want bus, finance it yourself. I suggest Penang gov, if they have any spine at all, to start taxing 30% of Penangite's income who are demanding the bus service to finance the free buses. If they don't want the buses, let them suffer and pay for cars.

Whatever it is, do not touch my money.
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what a stupid statement. penang ppl can just as easily oppose LRT and MRT , since it does not benefit them ! where does the buck stop ?

generally public transport must be run by government. private control will lead to increased costs and lack of safetty, because private companies are out to make profit, they dont care about the users.
dont need to argue with me, its already proven in cities around the world.
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post Oct 14 2013, 03:11 PM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 13 2013, 11:35 PM)
Companies are not charities. So, even with Malaysians, no reason to make it cheap for them.
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public transport is a basic and necessary utility, just like our water, electricity .

if we cant even get proper infrastructure, why the hell are we paying taxes ?
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post Oct 14 2013, 03:16 PM

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QUOTE(Kampung2005 @ Oct 14 2013, 09:44 AM)
I strongly agree with this. State government should be able to decide this matter without referring to Putrajaya.

However, I think the model should be like this.

Assets (buses, depots) owned by state government, while actual service is tendered (run by private sector).
*
Y must seperates federal and states to plans public transportation.
Imo both should work together.
As public transportation is not cheaps.
Certain public transportation like mrt, lrt, monorail, tram, bus and brt should be under government.
As government able to plan expension, intergration and subsidies.
Public transportation business is the hardest to make profit.
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post Oct 14 2013, 05:13 PM

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QUOTE(river.sand @ Oct 14 2013, 03:53 PM)
Are there any successful examples of such models inside or outside Malaysia?
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Plenty. Too many I don't know where to begin because it's widely practiced. You can start with Transport for London.
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post Oct 14 2013, 05:24 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ Oct 14 2013, 04:16 PM)
Y must seperates federal and states to plans public transportation.
Imo both should work together.
As public transportation is not cheaps.
Certain public transportation like mrt, lrt, monorail, tram, bus and brt should be under government.
As government able to plan expension, intergration and subsidies.
Public transportation business is the hardest to make profit.
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What Kampung meant was that the public transport should be managed and funded by the local authorities rather than the federal.

As an example, Transport for London (who manages all public transports in London) is one of the few functioning bodies of the local administration, Greater London Authority.

Materialising the public transport can come from anywhere.
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post Oct 15 2013, 05:49 PM

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QUOTE(HuorEarfalas @ Oct 14 2013, 12:08 AM)
Unfortunately for you good sir, the government decides how they want to spend your taxes.

Not all public bodies are ineffective. Transport for London is one such example. The idea is to get the right people to manage it. Privatisation doesn't guarantee that.
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We are not London. We are Kuala Lumpur. We are not a welfare country. No reason why we must do things like UK.

QUOTE(HiroBoroi @ Oct 14 2013, 10:21 AM)
Ha Interesting. Unfortunately, you should check your facts. These public transportation companies were private before. LRT, STAR,Monorail, Intrakota bla bla bla. Just wiki please. All these private companies loose shit loads of money. So govt bailed them out. Kroni walked away smiling. So still want to repeat failed experiment?  flex.gif

Perhaps the only privatization that will work is if we allow private tuk tuk and kapcai teksi. After all Thailand, Indonesia and probably Philipines has them, why we better then them ah?  whistling.gif
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Of course they are going to lose a lot of money. Its because, not enough Malaysians are taking public transport. The poor in this country are pampered lot. They drive their expensive japanese cars instead of taking public transport. What do you expect?

QUOTE(marvin68 @ Oct 14 2013, 12:13 PM)
for normal companies yes, for GLCs no.
already using people's money but don't want to serve them, then what for need help from gov?
see MAS everyday got bail out, using whose money? in the end still using tax money.
now you want to use tax money to earn more money from rakyat? so good deal where can i find ya?
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That's why I am suggesting that they to be run as profit making entities. No reason why we should run a charity.

QUOTE(sootienann @ Oct 14 2013, 03:10 PM)
what a stupid statement. penang ppl can just as easily oppose LRT and MRT , since it does not benefit them ! where does the buck stop ?

generally public transport must be run by government. private control will lead to increased costs and lack of safetty, because private companies are out to make profit, they dont care about the users.
dont need to argue with me, its already proven in cities around the world.
*
No reason for the government to provide public transport. Let private companies design and build their own public transport. Malaysians are just too darn pampered.

QUOTE(sootienann @ Oct 14 2013, 03:11 PM)
public transport is a basic and necessary utility, just like our water, electricity .

if we cant even get proper infrastructure, why the hell are we paying taxes ?
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You are paying taxes so that the government can focus on business infrastructures. No reason why it has to run a charity. It is not a utility. It is a privilege. You can easily drive your ugly Japanese car if you want.

That is why I am disappointed with the government. Government is pampering the people by control public transport. They should let it be.
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post Oct 15 2013, 08:17 PM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 15 2013, 06:49 PM)
We are not London. We are Kuala Lumpur. We are not a welfare country. No reason why we must do things like UK.
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Britain is nowhere near a welfare state. What they have is a functioning government with a functioning public body that manages a functioning public transport system.
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post Oct 16 2013, 04:52 PM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 15 2013, 05:49 PM)
Of course they are going to lose a lot of money. Its because, not enough Malaysians are taking public transport. The poor in this country are pampered lot. They drive their expensive japanese cars instead of taking public transport. What do you expect?
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you are badly mistaken. the poor in malaysia can only afford motorcycles not cars.



QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 15 2013, 05:49 PM)
That's why I am suggesting that they to be run as profit making entities. No reason why we should run a charity.
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then it will be like the highways , where concesionnaires have 50 years to make huge profits.
why do you support big corporations which prey on the common folk?
isnt it better to empower the middle and lower class , while controlling the big companies ?
why do you support power and money being concentrated in the hands of a few elite ?


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 15 2013, 05:49 PM)
You are paying taxes so that the government can focus on business infrastructures. No reason why it has to run a charity. It is not a utility. It is a privilege. You can easily drive your ugly Japanese car if you want. 
*
fyi, business infrastructure includes public transport because it enables workers to travel to work.
i dont want to drive. i want to take the bus and lrt. unfortunately our public transport is not efficient enough.
you are confused. public transport is a utility. private transport is a privilege. not the other way around.
you need to travel overseas more.


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 15 2013, 05:49 PM)

That is why I am disappointed with the government. Government is pampering the people by control public transport. They should let it be.
*
fool. government should provide good public transport, but at the same time make private transport like cars more expensive to use.
thats how all the developed countries do it. since malaysia also aspires to be developed, then we must also follow them.
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post Oct 16 2013, 08:38 PM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 15 2013, 05:49 PM)
That is why I am disappointed with the government. Government is pampering the people by control public transport. They should let it be.
*
the governmnt can used the money saved to buy condos for cows , and 3000 clocks.
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post Oct 17 2013, 12:19 AM

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The problem with privatising public transport is the sizeable operational cost it requires and the conflict of interest that will likely ensue in a private company.

Unless sdn bhds are willing to gear higher and have the human resources, they will certainly not risk itself to manage KL's public transport.

A sensible approach is to privatise it to public listed companies. But then again, they're prone to kowtowing to shareholders. Moreover, a portion of the generated revenue will be deducted and and returned to bondholders and stockholders. And what's left (10% of the revenue is typical) is hardly enough for future upgrades or improvements. Also, when an overselling of stocks happens, this companies will have to look ways to raise the money (e.g. raise ticket price) to pay off operational cost.
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post Oct 17 2013, 12:26 AM

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post Oct 17 2013, 10:03 PM

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QUOTE(HuorEarfalas @ Oct 15 2013, 08:17 PM)
Britain is nowhere near a welfare state. What they have is a functioning government with a functioning public body that manages a functioning public transport system.
*
It is typical welfare state. The sad part, employees are lazy bums and don't work very hard, yet demand all kinds of welfare from the ruling government.

QUOTE(sootienann @ Oct 16 2013, 04:52 PM)
you are badly mistaken. the poor in malaysia can only afford motorcycles not cars.
then it will be like the highways , where concesionnaires have 50 years to make huge profits.
why do you support big corporations which prey on the common folk?
isnt it better to empower the middle and lower class , while controlling the big companies ?
why do you support power and money being concentrated in the hands of a few elite ?
fyi, business infrastructure includes public transport because it enables workers to travel to work.
i dont want to drive. i want to take the bus and lrt. unfortunately our public transport is not efficient enough.
you are confused. public transport is a utility. private transport is a privilege. not the other way around.
you need to travel overseas more.
fool. government should provide good public transport, but at the same time make private transport like cars more expensive to use.
thats how all the developed countries do it. since malaysia also aspires to be developed, then we must also follow them.
*
Not really. Those who ride motorcycles are also considered middle class. If you can afford cars, you are rich.

I don't see anything wrong with concessionaires having 50 years to make huge profits. Businesses are PROFIT MOTIVATED.

Big corporations do not prey on common folks. That's just a leftist myth. The reality is that, these are lazy people screaming at the government for not giving them an easy life, when the reality is that they just refuse to work hard and are extremely calculative.

Middle class people are the worse of the lot. They spend so much money and expect government to give them welfare on top of it, without the need for working hard.

Why should I pay taxes to do that? Its my hard earn money. I rather give to the government to build better business infrastructures.

Public transport is not efficient because, it is under the government. The government has no choice but to run it like a charity because the ridership is still low. We need to force more people ride them, without compromising on profits.

It is not a utility. Stop being a pampered citizen. Start being a more productive worker please.

Developed countries develop when the people work hard, and not complaining about the lack of welfare and charities in the country.

QUOTE(sootienann @ Oct 16 2013, 08:38 PM)
the governmnt can used the money saved to buy condos for cows , and 3000 clocks.
*
That's the best you've got? Just pure baseless accusations?
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post Oct 18 2013, 12:29 AM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 17 2013, 10:03 PM)
That's the best you've got? Just pure baseless accusations?
*
why do u accuse the BN auditor general of being baseless ?
clocks costing 3000, hammers costing few thousand, computers costing 50000, officer overseas trip costing 300k, is all in the auditor general report. both past and present.
and of course, shahrizat family admit to spending millions on condos instead of cows.
if they themself did not deny, why do u deny ?


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 17 2013, 10:03 PM)
It is typical welfare state. The sad part, employees are lazy bums and don't work very hard, yet demand all kinds of welfare from the ruling government.
Not really. Those who ride motorcycles are also considered middle class. If you can afford cars, you are rich.
*
those who ride motorcycle are rich ? then the poor ride bicyucle ?


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 17 2013, 10:03 PM)
I don't see anything wrong with concessionaires having 50 years to make huge profits. Businesses are PROFIT MOTIVATED.

Big corporations do not prey on common folks. That's just a leftist myth. The reality is that, these are lazy people screaming at the government for not giving them an easy life, when the reality is that they just refuse to work hard and are extremely calculative.
*
big business is always financial power concentrated in the hands of the few. their customers are millions of common people.
why should PROFIT MOTIVATED business ,be allowed a long term monopoly to profit ? why should their CEO earn millions of ringgit at the expense of millions of citizens ?


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 17 2013, 10:03 PM)

Middle class people are the worse of the lot. They spend so much money and expect government to give them welfare on top of it, without the need for working hard.
*
when people spend , they actually pay tax money to the government. sales tax, GST, AP, import tax , car road tax, etc etc.

QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 17 2013, 10:03 PM)
Why should I pay taxes to do that? Its my hard earn money. I rather give to the government to build better business infrastructures.

*
if public transport is not a business infra, then what is?
what is an example of business infra ?


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 17 2013, 10:03 PM)
Why should I pay taxes to do that? Its my hard earn money. I rather give to the government to build better business infrastructures.

*
clocks costing 3000, hammers costing few thousand, computers costing 50000, officer overseas trip costing 300k, is all in the auditor general report. both past and present.
and of course, shahrizat family admit to spending millions on condos instead of cows.
thats where your tax money goes.


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post Oct 18 2013, 11:25 PM

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QUOTE(sootienann @ Oct 18 2013, 12:29 AM)
why do u accuse the BN auditor general of being baseless ?
clocks costing 3000, hammers costing few thousand, computers costing 50000, officer overseas trip costing 300k, is all in the auditor general report. both past and present.
and of course, shahrizat family admit to spending millions on condos instead of cows.
if they themself did not deny, why do u deny ?
those who ride motorcycle are rich ? then the poor ride bicyucle ?
big business is always financial power concentrated in the hands of the few. their customers are millions of common people.
why should PROFIT MOTIVATED  business ,be allowed a long term monopoly to profit ?  why should their CEO earn millions of ringgit at the expense of millions of citizens ?
when people spend , they actually pay tax money to the government. sales tax, GST, AP, import tax , car road tax, etc etc.
if public transport is not a business infra, then what is?
what is an example of business infra ?
clocks costing 3000, hammers costing few thousand, computers costing 50000, officer overseas trip costing 300k, is all in the auditor general report. both past and present.
and of course, shahrizat family admit to spending millions on condos instead of cows.
thats where your tax money goes.
*
The auditor general report is just a check and balance. If you yourself don't trust the government, how come you can trust the auditor general report? Isn't that hypocrisy at its finest?

Have you even read the report yourself? All those are just merely accusations and exaggerations from the opposition. Sharizat did deny. You chose to trust PR more than BN. That's all.

Please, don't twist what I said. I said, those who own motorcycles are middle class people. I didn't call them rich.

If a company is monopolizing the market, why blame the company? Clearly the company is doing a good job in keeping itself no 1. What people should question is, why aren't the other companies in the same industry are not able to compete with the monopoly? It is because, they are just not as good as the no 1 company.

Spending responsibly is OK, but most middle class folks spend their money carelessly. They buy everything, and yet complain of little pay.

Public transport is not a business infrastructure. Public transport is a public infrastructure, in the nature of charity. Business infrastructures include, ports, airports, trade hubs, internet connectivity & etc...

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post Oct 19 2013, 01:06 AM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 18 2013, 11:25 PM)
The auditor general report is just a check and balance. If you yourself don't trust the government, how come you can trust the auditor general report? Isn't that hypocrisy at its finest?
*
the auditor general report is just scratching the surface. for every ringgit misused, i am sure there is 10 or 100 which goes unreported.
and where is the punitive action? year after year reported corruption is ignored by macc or pdrm.


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 18 2013, 11:25 PM)
Have you even read the report yourself? All those are just merely accusations and exaggerations from the opposition. Sharizat did deny. You chose to trust PR more than BN. That's all.
*
its reported by BN propaganda machine itself . last i heard mass media which is newspapers is controll by BN not PR. no need to deny its all it the newspapers..


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 18 2013, 11:25 PM)
Please, don't twist what I said. I said, those who own motorcycles are middle class people. I didn't call them rich.
*
does that mean poor ppl cant even afford motorcycles and can only walk?
if that is the case that poor ppl must rise up and overthrow the government which steals the country money.


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 18 2013, 11:25 PM)
If a company is monopolizing the market, why blame the company? Clearly the company is doing a good job in keeping itself no 1. What people should question is, why aren't the other companies in the same industry are not able to compete with the monopoly? It is because, they are just not as good as the no 1 company.
*
bcos the monopoly is granted by government regulations. it did not come about because the company is good
example, Tenaga, Telekom, Syabas, Plus.
all these companies are granted monopoly by the gov to make big profits. they are not monopoly because they were competitive.


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 18 2013, 11:25 PM)
Public transport is not a business infrastructure. Public transport is a public infrastructure, in the nature of charity. Business infrastructures include, ports, airports, trade hubs, internet connectivity & etc...
*
public transport helps the government to save money from petrol subsidies.
do u like your tax money to be spent on subsidies for petrol ?


QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 18 2013, 11:25 PM)
Spending responsibly is OK, but most middle class folks spend their money carelessly. They buy everything, and yet complain of little pay.
*
middle class are compalining of taxes. they complain that the gov misues the tax money, as alreayd proven in auditor general report.

This post has been edited by sootienann: Oct 19 2013, 12:17 PM
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post Oct 19 2013, 01:21 AM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 17 2013, 10:03 PM)
It is typical welfare state. The sad part, employees are lazy bums and don't work very hard, yet demand all kinds of welfare from the ruling government.
Not really. Those who ride motorcycles are also considered middle class. If you can afford cars, you are rich.

Middle class people are the worse of the lot. They spend so much money and expect government to give them welfare on top of it, without the need for working hard.

Why should I pay taxes to do that? Its my hard earn money. I rather give to the government to build better business infrastructures.

It is not a utility. Stop being a pampered citizen. Start being a more productive worker please.


*
Fuh!! You shipping tycoon or taukeh balak? notworthy.gif I think my tax contribution, want to buy tiang letrik TNB also cannot. Poorfag. cry.gif Thats is why I anti songlap. vmad.gif
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post Oct 19 2013, 01:38 AM

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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 18 2013, 11:25 PM)
The auditor general report is just a check and balance. If you yourself don't trust the government, how come you can trust the auditor general report? Isn't that hypocrisy at its finest?
*
The government is big. Got minister, civil servants, drivers, clerks, polis, army etc. Not all are bad. Those who songlap are guys on top (at least for quantities that matter). The politicians. Even then, not all politician songlap.

Out of all this, we get the auditor general's report. I'm sure as all audit reports, it is only a snapshot. There are probably things that were missed or even omitted. So for all items caught, normally there will be a close out of the audit. Procedures tightened, loopholes closed out, money recovered, criminals punished. I don't recall this part. flex.gif This is standard procedure for all big multi nationals. It is the system that matters.
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post Oct 19 2013, 02:32 AM

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QUOTE(HuorEarfalas @ Oct 15 2013, 08:17 PM)
Britain is nowhere near a welfare state. What they have is a functioning government with a functioning public body that manages a functioning public transport system.
*
yes, after hundred of years occupying half of the world by brute military force, squeeze out every potential what other have for their own benefits, systematically conducting the usage of slaves around the world, senseless murder those who fights for their rights, bring back all of the wealth channel through illegal means.

and that, for you is a functioning government. go suck your mama's titties la laugh.gif
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post Oct 19 2013, 02:42 AM

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People need to understand that a welfare state is simply not healthy.

The worst part of welfare is once its given, its hard or nearly impossible to take back.

People like free stuff, I know I do. But the government should know when to give and when not to give.
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come on. depreciation cost so high.. we know where this cost from right?
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post Oct 19 2013, 12:09 PM

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QUOTE(Honey Stars @ Oct 19 2013, 02:42 AM)
People need to understand that a welfare state is simply not healthy.

The worst part of welfare is once its given, its hard or nearly impossible to take back.

People like free stuff, I know I do. But the government should know when to give and when not to give.
*
is welfare socialist ? a socialist state is good because it takes from the rich and gives to the poor.
if implemented properly there will be a large middle class, with very few rich or poor.
unlike malaysia where society is a pyramid, most people have a feudal mentality where the poor always have to bow down to the rich and powerful.

in fact malaysia is one of the most unequal society in the world. no other country have so many tan sri, datuks, 9 sultans, powerful/corrupt BN politicians.....
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post Oct 19 2013, 12:11 PM

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QUOTE(HiroBoroi @ Oct 19 2013, 01:38 AM)
The government is big.  Got minister, civil servants, drivers, clerks, polis, army etc. Not all are bad. Those who songlap are guys on top (at least for quantities that matter). The politicians. Even then, not all politician songlap.
*
so whats the threshold? 50%? 90%?
hooray, only 49% of government is corrupt! we should be happy n grateful !

QUOTE(leechers @ Oct 19 2013, 02:32 AM)
yes, after hundred of years occupying half of the world by brute military force, squeeze out every potential what other have for their own benefits, systematically conducting the usage of slaves around the world, senseless murder those who fights for their rights, bring back all of the wealth channel through illegal means.

and that, for you is a functioning government. go suck your mama's titties la  laugh.gif
*
whats the problem with britain as a conqueror and colonial? if u are british sure u will be happy right ? fark the native slaves.
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QUOTE(Flaming_lion @ Oct 17 2013, 10:03 PM)
Public transport is not efficient because, it is under the government. The government has no choice but to run it like a charity because the ridership is still low. We need to force more people ride them, without compromising on profits
That's the best you've got? Just pure baseless accusations?
*
how to be productive when we spend 3 hours travling to work every day? if gov give us efficient public transport, then we can save traveling time.
then we can spend more time working instead of traveling, thus being more productive at our job.
also we can save money by avoiding driving, thus we wont complain not enough salary, and gov dont need to use so much of our tax money to subsidies petrol.
also, we can attract investment because companies dont need to pay transport allowance to their employees. thus, public transport is a business-enabler.

This post has been edited by sootienann: Oct 19 2013, 02:11 PM
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post Oct 19 2013, 02:53 PM

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QUOTE(sootienann @ Oct 19 2013, 12:11 PM)
so whats the threshold? 50%? 90%?
hooray, only 49% of government is corrupt! we should be happy n grateful !

*
Perhaps my reply to flaming lion was not to the point. All I'm saying is that it is not hypocricy to trust the AG report because not all from the government is bad.

So we need to close out the audit. Take action so that we don't see a repeat of the same things next year. Take disciplinary/criminal actions against those who did the wrong doings. If the people in power do nothing, then the only thing we can do is use our vote and kick them out. It is not easy, but in the end if kampung/ulu people still want BN what to do. cry.gif

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post Oct 19 2013, 05:44 PM

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QUOTE(leechers @ Oct 19 2013, 03:32 AM)
yes, after hundred of years occupying half of the world by brute military force, squeeze out every potential what other have for their own benefits, systematically conducting the usage of slaves around the world, senseless murder those who fights for their rights, bring back all of the wealth channel through illegal means.

and that, for you is a functioning government. go suck your mama's titties la  laugh.gif
*
They suck us dry while enforcing laws and order through a functional system.

We have some quarters of politicians who suck us dry while giving us a dysfunctional system.

God save The Queen and Her Majesty's heir.
SUSbananajoe
post Oct 19 2013, 05:48 PM

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Dont just hentam prasarana la. Make sense. 10 mill annually where for enough.
Flaming_lion
post Oct 20 2013, 12:16 PM

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QUOTE(sootienann @ Oct 19 2013, 01:06 AM)
the auditor general report is just scratching the surface. for every ringgit misused, i am sure there is 10 or 100 which goes unreported.
and where is the punitive action? year after year reported corruption is ignored by macc or pdrm.
its reported by BN propaganda machine itself . last i heard mass media which is newspapers is controll by BN not PR. no need to deny its all it the newspapers..
does that mean poor ppl cant even afford motorcycles and can only walk?
if that is the case that poor ppl must rise up and overthrow the government which steals the country money.
bcos the monopoly is granted by government regulations. it did not come about because the company is good
example, Tenaga, Telekom, Syabas, Plus.
all these companies are granted monopoly by the gov to make big profits. they are not monopoly because they were competitive.
public transport helps the government to save money from petrol subsidies.
do u like your tax money to be spent on subsidies for petrol ?
middle class are compalining of taxes. they complain that the gov misues the tax money, as alreayd proven in auditor general report.
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In other words, you are speculating, as usual.

Why don't you read the newspapers and see how many people have been punished for corruption. Better yet, watch TV3.

I don't see anything wrong with that. The last thing we need is mass media to start behaving like online media, to spread lies.

You want anything in life, you must work for it. They can always get a bicycle.

That's seditious mate and defaming the government.

I disagree, like any other capitalist society, a monopoly happens simply because, the company is good and is providing customers with what they need. When the company loses its touch, it spirals downwards. Nokia used to be a powerful force in the mobile phone industry. What is it now? Nobody is even bothered to pay any attention to them.

TNB is because, its a national interest. By right, the government should let private companies control the energy industry. Telekom is a monopoly? How about Maxis? Syabas? There are also other water asset concessionaires in Selangor. Go Google it up. Plus? You also have SAGA, KESAS, Metramac and a few others.

It doesn't. By spending on public transport, you just reallocating money from subsidies for petrol to subsidizing for public transport. They are both same in nature.

Middle class are the same bunch of people, who will take a credit card, spend like there's no tomorrow buying luxurious goods, failing to pay back their credit cards on time, and then later fall for opposition propaganda to blame the government for their own stupidity.

QUOTE(HiroBoroi @ Oct 19 2013, 01:38 AM)
The government is big.  Got minister, civil servants, drivers, clerks, polis, army etc. Not all are bad. Those who songlap are guys on top (at least for quantities that matter). The politicians. Even then, not all politician songlap.

Out of all this, we get the auditor general's report. I'm sure as all audit reports, it is only a snapshot. There are probably things that were missed or even omitted. So for all items caught, normally there will be a close out of the audit. Procedures tightened, loopholes closed out, money recovered, criminals punished. I don't recall this part.  flex.gif  This is standard procedure for all big multi nationals. It is the system that matters.
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Questioning the auditor's credibility as well?

I doubt there's anything wrong. I am very comfortable with this government. I think they have worked very hard to combat corruption.

QUOTE(sootienann @ Oct 19 2013, 02:08 PM)
how to be productive when we spend 3 hours travling to work every day? if gov give us efficient public transport, then we can save traveling time.
then we can spend more time working instead of traveling, thus being more productive at our job.
also we can save money by avoiding driving, thus we wont complain not enough salary, and gov dont need to use so much of our tax money to subsidies petrol.
also, we can attract investment because companies dont need to pay transport allowance to their employees. thus, public transport is a business-enabler.
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That's not my or the government's problem. If they don't like traveling, they are always free to work in a company near their houses, or they can easily buy a place near their office, or rent. Efficient public transport can only come from letting the free market controlling public transport.

You can always spend more time working. Stop giving excuses. No one stops you from working longer hours. Then again, working longer hours does not mean that you are being productive as well.

You can also save money avoiding driving by living nearby your office or working near your home. Investments come in only when it is a freer market. When it is socialist market, nobody is going to invest in your country.

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