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 V12 - Property prices discussion, For non "UUU" and "DDD" campers only...

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SUSAmayaBumibuyer
post Jul 25 2013, 10:06 AM

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QUOTE(kidmad @ Jul 25 2013, 09:24 AM)
Well if that's the way you want to play your words. Can't help.

But again please go through the Japanese Economy and how the props had turned out to be today.. KV is no where near them. In Japan Execs would not be able to afford a home unless they are living an hour away from the main cities. In Malaysia? Please use a proper comparison.
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First he wants to compare KL with Detroit...then Japan...what's next, Timbuktu? Everywhere I see, see people buying properties in real life and in forums. Because they all need a house to live in, and they are all, as I see it buying within their means. Can't buy in KV, buy in Kajang, can't buy in Mont Kiara, buy in Sri Petaling. Any good launches in KL, buy Fennel. Market is still there.


TSkochin
post Jul 25 2013, 10:10 AM

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QUOTE(ManutdGiggs @ Jul 25 2013, 09:59 AM)
Anyway, by looking at the recent responce fr fennel, I think there r stil ppl chasing props regardless of gd or bad props. As long as the loc is OK then many r actually ready to kill it off.

My fren bot 7 units by using diff names. According to him, due to limited time for choosing units, and oso afraid tat units chosen hav oledi been taken, they just make sure they point at wateva is the smallest size when its their turn.  sweat.gif

Reckon tis felo oso playing some flipping game which is no gd for the project. And he has started to call up some frenz to make kopi lui.  hmm.gif  brows.gif

Cash rich ppl stil many here. Just tat the strategies applied might not benefit the entire prop market in the long run. And the grey area is no dev is able to control the buyers fr buying more than 1 unit. The onli hope is the gov hav to make up the mind to amend the regulation to stop all tis nonsense. High LTV and high RPGT seems to b very gd tools now. icon_rolleyes.gif
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veli lich and powderful frens u hv boss.
satu kali tikam 7 bijik. notworthy.gif

actually veli dilemma also lah.
developer not much difference from any other businesses.

like char kuey teow.
if a customer order 100 plates, he will fry 100 plates for him and ask other customers to wait or come another day.

just like a developer would also sell 100 units to a single purchaser if the purchaser is able.

of course both scenarios also the seller should verify the capability of the buyer to pay lah.
tnchsg
post Jul 25 2013, 10:41 AM

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because everyone also fear of the house price to be gone up without stop or the good loan of buying offer to be stopped anytime by BNM, hence everyone rush for that...
so might regret nowadays for those who believed the property will drop few years back, and it isn't..
some might need a house now, else no green light from the in-law not to go for married....
thousand of reasons...
pity our generation nowadays who live in the city with cukup makan income...
cybermaster98
post Jul 25 2013, 10:57 AM

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Question to all:

Do you think there is going to be a major property slump in Malaysia sometime in 2015-2017? Please give your reasons.
TSkochin
post Jul 25 2013, 11:00 AM

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QUOTE(cybermaster98 @ Jul 25 2013, 10:57 AM)
Question to all:

Do you think there is going to be a major property slump in Malaysia sometime in 2015-2017? Please give your reasons.
*
this is The question! the more than a RM1mil question which everybody would love to know the answer. drool.gif
SUSAmayaBumibuyer
post Jul 25 2013, 11:07 AM

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QUOTE(cybermaster98 @ Jul 25 2013, 10:57 AM)
Question to all:

Do you think there is going to be a major property slump in Malaysia sometime in 2015-2017? Please give your reasons.
*
I don't have a reason but if there is a property slump, it is not going to be major. When major I mean at most probably 20%. But 20% is still very conservative
SUSAmayaBumibuyer
post Jul 25 2013, 11:13 AM

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QUOTE(tnchsg @ Jul 25 2013, 11:01 AM)
if i am a bumi investor, i will never buy bumi lot for flipping, there is no resell value at all...
gov put this requirement just to make the ordinary houses become extra expensive (to compensate the bumi discount) and create more vacant units...
bumi discount should really award to 1st or 2nd time bumi house buyer, in order to help them...
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Correct I know one bumi investor who only buys non bumi lots for investing. Malay reserve land much worse, if you buy on that land you can only sell to malays only. If you got no chinese market, then it is not worth it. Same as the feng shui issue, if feng shui not good, no chinese wants to buy then the house just dont appreciate.

But then indirectly this helps in a way to curb speculation and bubble, especially on the bumi lots. I bet you guys haven't thought about this. Let me put the idea here in then.

This post has been edited by AmayaBumibuyer: Jul 25 2013, 11:14 AM
ManutdGiggs
post Jul 25 2013, 11:13 AM

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QUOTE(kochin @ Jul 25 2013, 10:10 AM)
veli lich and powderful frens u hv boss.
satu kali tikam 7 bijik.  notworthy.gif

actually veli dilemma also lah.
developer not much difference from any other businesses.

like char kuey teow.
if a customer order 100 plates, he will fry 100 plates for him and ask other customers to wait or come another day.

just like a developer would also sell 100 units to a single purchaser if the purchaser is able.

of course both scenarios also the seller should verify the capability of the buyer to pay lah.
*
I'm not sure how he had gotten so many units when ytl announced onli 1 unit per head. As long as I know he was there with few relative to register under diff names. brows.gif Maybe ytl allowed 1 person to choose but few to sign??? rclxub.gif

Regarding capability, dev ll lose nothin cos they r able to resell at higher price if the spa is not signed. Further to tat, admin fee is oledi mentioned up front tat its chargable. So should not hav any arguement on tat. icon_rolleyes.gif

Well, I hav just met up a valuer chatting bout the market scenario. He was surprise to c the responce fr tis fennel as well. And I was told tat quite a number of valuers r now getting some extra pocket $$$ to sign off higher value for the sellers. So its not surprising if the market kaboom, banks might start to take legal action on valuers if the valuers r appointed by them. sweat.gif


ManutdGiggs
post Jul 25 2013, 11:14 AM

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QUOTE(cybermaster98 @ Jul 25 2013, 10:57 AM)
Question to all:

Do you think there is going to be a major property slump in Malaysia sometime in 2015-2017? Please give your reasons.
*
Onli minor in 17/18. Share market ll react 1st icon_question.gif
cybermaster98
post Jul 25 2013, 11:18 AM

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QUOTE(ManutdGiggs @ Jul 25 2013, 11:14 AM)
Onli minor in 17/18. Share market ll react 1st icon_question.gif
Based on what reasoning?
SUSAmayaBumibuyer
post Jul 25 2013, 11:21 AM

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QUOTE(cybermaster98 @ Jul 25 2013, 11:18 AM)
Based on what reasoning?
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I would say based on the example of 1998 Asian financial crisis where KLCI went as low as 200++ and property hardly move. I mean that is what I would give.

Now I have to get off my lazy ass and get back to work.

This post has been edited by AmayaBumibuyer: Jul 25 2013, 11:24 AM
ManutdGiggs
post Jul 25 2013, 11:33 AM

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QUOTE(cybermaster98 @ Jul 25 2013, 11:18 AM)
Based on what reasoning?
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Dev might b over confident now with the launching price. Eventhou I dun touch resi, but I can feel the pain with some of the highly priced resi. sweat.gif

Commi, no prob. U ll c more chain retailers either local brands or foreign brands renting. Its just the matter of roi. Could b as low as 3%. Unless the loc is very lousy.



AppreciativeMan
post Jul 25 2013, 11:59 AM

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QUOTE(ManutdGiggs @ Jul 25 2013, 09:59 AM)
Anyway, by looking at the recent responce fr fennel, I think there r stil ppl chasing props regardless of gd or bad props. As long as the loc is OK then many r actually ready to kill it off.

My fren bot 7 units by using diff names. According to him, due to limited time for choosing units, and oso afraid tat units chosen hav oledi been taken, they just make sure they point at wateva is the smallest size when its their turn.  sweat.gif

Reckon tis felo oso playing some flipping game which is no gd for the project. And he has started to call up some frenz to make kopi lui.  hmm.gif  brows.gif

Cash rich ppl stil many here. Just tat the strategies applied might not benefit the entire prop market in the long run. And the grey area is no dev is able to control the buyers fr buying more than 1 unit. The onli hope is the gov hav to make up the mind to amend the regulation to stop all tis nonsense. High LTV and high RPGT seems to b very gd tools now. icon_rolleyes.gif
*
Boss, I bet quite a substantial group of buyers are stronger supporter or fans of YTL...... If really ask them detail of project, I won't be surprise lots of them can't even answer u...... tongue.gif tongue.gif
b00n
post Jul 25 2013, 10:18 PM

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This topic will remain close until after I have reviewed the recent pages and complains.
Any "deserving posts" will get the deserved warning or suspension.

Am little bit tied up with work this past weeks but I will try and go through this topic over the weekend.
iwin_wai
post Jul 26 2013, 10:33 PM

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Guys, seem like the bubble prophecy is getting stronger by days. Now seem like media and bank negara also losing their cool recently. So my question here on this thread will be will the Prophecy that we are debating for so long will finally reach Malaysian shore? This is not from me..but from the STAR column itself, I am quite disturb to go through of it. How do you think, and any of you already start making precaution steps? Mind to share for the good of all?


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Dude, where’s my mortgage?

Posted on July 26, 2013 - Featured, Investment.

Will Bank Negara’s recent loan regulations herald a local credit crunch and bursting of the bubble?

These are interesting times, said a property consultant over lunch recently. The pumping of liquidity by the US, UK, Europe and Japan into their economies, and by extension into the world, by the trillions of dollars, has been on an unprecedented scale. It’s like being part of a mass global experiment, the results of which we’re not quite sure, but will surely be of massive consequences.

So far, quantitative easing seems to have worked. The US is showing positive figures and we have not seen the collapse of capitalism. The “we are the 99%”-ers have not taken over from the purported 1% Illuminati controlling the world’s wealth and economy. Nor has the US fallen off a fiscal cliff.


The Occupy movement still continues but seems to have lost momentum–Alex Wong/Getty Images/AFP

In Malaysia, we have smugly ridden out the turmoils. While the property market has frozen for several years in the UK, banks still push you credit cards here (I just picked up a cool suitcase, Ikea freebies and travel miles upon approval) and people don’t think twice about eating out on RM50 per person.

In terms of property, launches have been aplenty, and panel bankers line up to serve you. Prices in some places have doubled since 2008 and we can even now take over parts of London… Malaysia boleh!

What, me worry?

If you were to read Bank Negara’s latest Financial Stability and Payment Systems Report 2012, everything sounds hunky dory. The percentage of impaired (or non-performing) loans dropped last year to 1.5% for household loans, down from 1.8% in 2011 and 2.3% in 2010.

“Indicators of aggregate household resilience are sound with total and liquid household financial buffers remaining stable,” goes the report. “More importantly, indicators in the banking sector continue to support the sound overall credit quality of household loans from the banking system.”

All very controlled and dependable, just like our iron banking lady, Tan Sri Zeti Aziz, it seems.


Special advisor to Consumers Association of Penang (CAP) Dr Lim Mah Hui (left) and CAP president S.M. Mohamed Idris showing charts on the comparison of household debt and disposable income as well as the debt service ratio in Malaysia.

Yes, Bank Negara may have lost a bit of cool recently by admitting that profligate loans have encouraged households to accumulate excessive debt. Housing, car, credit card and personal loans have increased “at a strong pace”–12% per year over the last few years–and now represents 81% of our national income.

This is risky because if interest rates rise and the economy falters, people will lose jobs and find it difficult to pay their debts; banks then would be out of money which they owe to deposit holders or other banks.

To counter this, Bank Negara recently announced it would limit mortgage tenures to 35 years. It may also curb developer interest-bearing schemes (DIBS)–where property builders pay for buyers’ loan interests during construction. Luckily, all these are calculated moves to slow down rather than crash a vibrant property market, aren’t they?

Over the last couple of weeks, however, we’ve been hearing phrases which would not normally be mentioned crop up: bad words like “interest rates increase”, “capital flight”, and “price correction”. Do we possibly see the tide turning?

Interest rates won’t rise, or will they?


Bernanke testified in Capitol Hill recently that there is a risk that Congressional fiscal policy “will restrain economic growth over the next few quarters by more than we currently expect.”–Chip Somodevilla/Getty Images/AFP

Economy watchers have for some time placed any increase in interest rates beyond the immediate future, next year at the earliest.

Low interest rates have provided cheap and easy credit and mortgages in Malaysia have grown steadily. Last year, more than half of all household loans–56%–were for buying properties, said Bank Negara’s report. The proportion of them taking multiple loans, furthermore, had risen, “signaling a resumption in demand for housing credit for investment purposes”.

After all, advertisements tout property as a means of achieving wealth and financial freedom. Gurus tell you that if you stretch your loans out, your monthly instalments will come out lower than your rentals (“positive cash flow”), and with enough properties, you may even quit your job!

Recently however, US Federal Reserve chief, Ben Bernanke (the American Tan Sri Zeti) indicated that it might begin tapering off quantitative easing as long as labour markets continue to improve. Although he’s qualified this in several aspects, US interest rates have risen in response, making the dollar and US assets possibly attractive propositions again. Many thus anticipate funds, which had flowed into emerging markets during the financial crisis, to flow back to the US and Europe again.

Manulife Asset Management Services Bhd chief investment officer Jason Chong indeed hinted that there may be a possible mass-exit of foreign investors from the Malaysian bond, money or equity markets.


To stem this capital flight, and also to protect attendant currency falls, India and Indonesia have increased interest rates up to 2%. Bank of Canada has also said that it would “gradually normalize” borrowing costs over time as the slack in the economy disappears and inflation picks up. Brazil, meanwhile, increased rates 0.5% to battle inflation. Here in Malaysia, Standard Chartered made the recent, bold prediction that rates might increase by 0.25% as early as November.

What would be its impact? For me, it means an increase in monthly instalments of RM100 per month. Imagine if I had three mortgages and my instalments went up on all of them? If I were a professional landlord, I could now be cash flow negative with my dreams of financial freedom soured.

Another development to tighten funds would be the Basel III reforms, which require the world’s banks to have enough cash in their vaults and not to lend out too much, to avoid further banking failures. Bank Negara is confident that our banks would have no problem meeting the requirements by 2018, but it would surely mean a constraint on lending.

Already, word on the ground from property sales people goes that some banks are starting to approve only 80% loans for those already servicing another residential property loan.

Potential correction


The figures show noticeable spikes in the Malaysian House Price Index and Index of Units Launched by Price for properties priced above RM1mil from late 2010.

Investors have also started talking about a “potential correction” in the property market, that runaway property prices indicate the top of a property cycle.

“There are risks faced by Malaysian banks in relation to high household debt and a potential correction in the country’s property market, but we think there is a low likelihood of these risks playing out in the next 12 to 18 months,” said credit ratings firm Moody’s in Singapore recently.


The property life cycle, as drawn out by real estate blogger AgentDiary, postulates that Malaysia is at the top of the cycle, with characteristics including transaction price peak and the “property price never drops” rhetoric.

You wouldn’t have known it from the primary market. YTL Land & Development Bhd’s preview of its Fennel project in Sentul East, priced at RM700 per sq ft, sold out two blocks within two days.


Low Yat Group’s Tribeca project on Jalan Imbi has managed to sell at prices ranging from RM1,800 to RM2,400 per sq ft to mainly foreign buyers.

Even at stratospheric prices between RM1,800 to RM2,400 per sq ft, Low Yat Group sold almost half its apartments in its Tribeca project on Jalan Imbi. Arcoris Mont’Kiara by UEM Sunrise Bhd, meanwhile, managed to chart about 90% of sales before its show units debuted to the public. The majority of Tribeca’s units were sold to foreign buyers, from the likes of Indonesia, China and Taiwan, however, while Arcoris’ developers gave significant rebates as sales incentives.


Arcoris Mont’Kiara has seen nearly complete take-up, as packaged with significant incentives.

Property investor Michael Tan reckons that if there were to be a bubble bursting, it could happen within the next couple of years, when many projects bought during the 2010 to 2012 property bull run are completed: “Many were sold on DIBS, so buyers didn’t fork out any cash until completion, not to mention all the attractive rebates. But when the properties come on stream, many will be looking to flip or rent out, and that will be the first test: whether they can find buyers or tenants.”

In terms of housing affordability, the ratio of average house prices in Malaysia, in relation to household income, comes in at about four. In rapidly emerging markets, this is still acceptable, noted valuer Elvin Fernandez has said. However, the figure rises to six, seven or even eight in certain areas of the country, he adds, and this is similar to the ratios that were seen in American houses prices “before they crashed down towards the figure of three during the sub-prime crisis, and three is some kind of gravitational pull for house prices”.

A return to Danaharta?


Mitraland Group chairman Dato’ Johan Ariffin (left) and group CEO Chuah Theong Yee believe that regulation of the property market will benefit the industry in the long run.

Datuk Johan Ariffin, previous senior GM for Pengurusan Danaharta Nasional Bhd’s property division, and now chairman of property developer Mitraland Sdn Bhd, doesn’t believe there will be a return to the last Asian Financial Crisis however. So many loans defaulted then that the government formed Danaharta to buy them out from cash-poor banks.

“No, it’s a different landscape today,” says Johan who also sits on the board of Maybank and Sime Darby Properties. “Then, it was a currency thing, many people had overgeared and businesses had borrowed too much. Today, our banks are much stronger, they have been recapitalised and are very well run compared to 12 years ago. It would take a lot for something to affect the whole system.”

One thing’s for sure, restrictions cool buyer sentiments, such as when the 70% loan cap for the third home and net income rule were announced in 2010 and last year, respectively.


Bank Negara’s regulations may dampen sales but they will weed out speculators, says Dato’ Johan Ariffin, chairman of Mitraland Group which develops projects such as 16 Quartz in Taman Melawati, pictured.

“While it may have taken us three months to hit 60% sales in the past, today it takes us six months to do it, because your buyers come, they are interested but they can’t qualify for a loan then you have to find new buyers,” says Johan.

This means that developers must have enough funds to tie them over a delay in sales. “In our cash flow planning, we already anticipate and make provision for a longer initial sales period. This just means less speculators and more genuine buyers.”

So is everything really under control then, as Bank Negara intimates? Are we just having a controlled slowdown rather than a crash? As a property watcher said over breakfast, you never know. Just like in the late ‘90s, the Asian Financial Crisis took most of us by surprise. We are living in one of history’s largest financial experiments, though, and whether Malaysian property sees a harsh or soft ride towards fundamental values will surely be affected by its outcome… Watch this space.

SpeechLess11
post Jul 26 2013, 10:56 PM

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for me,

bubble is not prophecy but a cycle. 100% will come just the matter of time.

Based on the wind i heard, before property bubble, there will be bubble for stock first...so kick ur ass out of property when stock is not doing good...
iwin_wai
post Jul 26 2013, 11:01 PM

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QUOTE(SpeechLess11 @ Jul 26 2013, 10:56 PM)
for me,

bubble is not prophecy but a cycle. 100% will come just the matter of time.

Based on the wind i heard, before property bubble, there will be bubble for stock first...so kick ur ass out of property when stock is not doing good...
*
You means loading off all the properties before it get crashes? do you think its a bit too aggresive? what if it doesnt burst but just correction?
SpeechLess11
post Jul 26 2013, 11:05 PM

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QUOTE(iwin_wai @ Jul 26 2013, 11:01 PM)
You means loading off all the properties before it get crashes? do you think its a bit too aggresive? what if it doesnt burst but just correction?
*
from somewhere i read,

cash king = winner during bubble time if you know how to use it drool.gif drool.gif drool.gif

but of coz, im just a small potato so dun take my word seriously...LOL tongue.gif

let's wait for daigor reply...

This post has been edited by SpeechLess11: Jul 26 2013, 11:27 PM
iwin_wai
post Jul 26 2013, 11:20 PM

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QUOTE(SpeechLess11 @ Jul 26 2013, 11:05 PM)
from somewhere i read,

cash king = winner during bubble time if you know how to use it  drool.gif  drool.gif  drool.gif

but of coz, im just a small potato so dun take my word seriously...LOL tongue.gif

let wait for daigor reply...
*
rclxub.gif rclxub.gif rclxub.gif Cash = King. Too bad my dad is not multi millionaire.. cry.gif
b00n
post Jul 27 2013, 01:17 AM

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Topic CLEANED and reopened.

and pls tone down on the sarcastic flaming and taunting antics!

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