How it Happened.

On 26 April I ordered through Lelong.com and paid RM809 for the purchase of 1 unit of JIAYU G4 handphone to the above seller. Before I pay him I asked him whether he has stock and he replied he has and committed to despatch in a few days' time. Then, on 29 April he registered the trade as shipped.

Two weeks after, I still have not received the product. I called his hand phone many times and he did not answer. I also sms him many times but received no reply until I sent an sms threatening that I will lodge an police report against Lelong.com and him. Then he quickly replied through sms. He then said that there was an technical error that he registered the trade as shipped where he hasn't because he has no stock. If such is the case he should have promptly refunded the full payment without being asked or called me for direction.

This seller was very rude when I confronted him with police report and replied that he would not refund the money since that I threaten him with a police report because that is "his penalty" for doing so. He said he had dealt with many complaints before and said one guy had lodged a police report in a similar case before and the cop found him innocent. He said the cop said he could forfeit the full payment. He also said he has "millions of dollars" in his bank account and why should he cheat me of RM809. But he will not refund because of the "penalty".

Sensing that no way I could reason with him further, I asked him to settle the case within 24 hours or else I will lodge a police report and a report to the Ministry of Trade against him along with Lelong.com. Sensing that he is cornered, he pulled out the race card which has so successfully used by politicians. He said he has dealt with a few malay customers and they are ok with him and as a chinese I should be ashamed of being a chinese to deal with him in such a manner over a small sum. Incredulously, he offered to refund me the full payment only if I apologize to him. I shot back to him in no uncertain terms that despite all the fraudulent claim of shipping, delays, threats not to refund and rudeness he should be the person who should apologize. He then replied since I "don't want my money back" he will stop communicating with me further.

I have done many trades in Lelong.com but have not encountered any "weird" case as this seller. All my previous purchases have no problem. This guy seems to have a huge ego and attitude problem. Maybe he is so cocky because the demands for china phones are so great at the moment and the profit margins are huge (something like 80-100%) because of shortage.

I know that if I were to apologize for something which I should not have, I could have gotten my money back. But out of principle, I'm not going to do that and I was will to risk my RM809 to go all the way to fight for my consumer rights by lodging a police report and a complaint to the Ministry of Trade (Consumer Tribunal), Lelong.com and other authorities if I need to. And it will be good that we expose such rogue sellers to the internet community so that they will not be given roughshod treatment by dishonest sellers.

Then he went silent. But I have full confidence I'll get my money back as the laws protect consumers!

By the way, I'm residing in Penang and have no way to confront him at his shop in Selangor.



Latest Update!

This leonjunyin has refunded me the money. At first he only refunded RM800 but quickly refunded the other RM9 in a jiffy within an hour.

These people think that they are selling miracle anti-ageing product or something that they can be so rude, cocky and obstinate to demand apology from customers in spite that they do not deliver their part of their bargain to consumer.

By and large most sellers are ok except for a few black sheeps. This is the worst seller that I have come across and I wouldn’t deal with him, even with a 10 foot pole, from now on!




Instead of wasting my time talking about him I’m going to share my experience on how we can protect our consumer’s rights against people like him.




The problem with unscrupulous sellers

Because of shortage in the market some sellers in Lelong are doing roaring business and reaping huge profit margins. They become so cocky and deal with customers with the attitude of “take it or leave it”. This guy even increases his prices subsequently in spite that he already makes a huge profit margin on his first quotation. What more, if you had paid them the whole payment, they become more obstinate and expect you to kowtow to them and follow their whims and fancy. You call them and sms them and they won’t even bother to reply promptly. Like in my case, I phoned and sms him for a few days and until I threatened him with a police report that he promptly replied. At first this guy refused to refund the full payment and stop all communication just because I said I wanted to lodge a police report. Later in the height of sheer obstinacy and lunacy that he muster the gall to demand apology from a customer before he would refund the money which, rightly, should the other way be around.

How you can protect yourself

We don’t need to kowtow or be afraid of these unscrupulous and obstinate sellers. Know your consumer rights. Here’s what you can do:

1. Tell them, preferably in black and white, through email or sms to demand payment or the actions to remedy the defect within a certain time frame, e.g. within 24 hours or 48 hours. This can be used as evidence later on if you want to lodge a police report or bring a case to the Ministry of Domestic Trade, Co-operatives & Consumerism (Consumer Tribunal).

2. Look at the product sale listing. If the seller has partners, also email or sms to them alerting them of the problem. Tell them if this case proceeds they, as partners under the partnership laws, may also be investigated and charged. They may intervene to correct the situation if they want to avoid a nasty situation. If the sale listing is under a “Sdn. Bhd.” then there are no partners but you can still complain to the company's other directors (if known) and the SSM (Companies Commission of Malaysia).

3. Write an email to the online sales facilator e.g Lelong to mediate immediately:
i. Tell them the exact problem eg the non-refund or the defects of the products
ii. Tell them to demand the seller to refund or remedy the defects within a certain time frame eg 24 hours
iii. Remind the online sales facilator to protect your consumer’s rights failing which they may be seen to abet in the wrong doings of the sellers. I wrote an email to Lelong as follows:

In view of the above, you are to proceed with the necessary actions to protect innocent purchasers who relied on the reputation of your company and website. The seller had sold his products under the reputation of your company. Hence, your company is precariously liable for the conduct and honesty of your sellers. What more, you have already been notified of the wrong doings and are required to protect consumers in accordance with the pertinent law of consumerism in Malaysia and within the law under which you are given license to operate as an facilitator of online product selling. Refusal to refund payment promptly after contract has been breached is a serious crime.

This case will proceed to the police department, the Department of Trade, the Consumer Associations and various news agencies. I hope you will be guided with the above considerations. You are notified to take the necessary actions within 24 hours hereof.

Note : If you read the online facilator’s user agreement, you will find that they have a disclaimer that they cannot control the actions of sellers, the trade and the quality of the products because there is no practical way that they could do so as there are many trades done online without their control. However, if you had notified them of the wrong doings then they will have to take action otherwise they may later be seen to be abetting the sellers in the wrong doings.

iv. The actions that the online sales facilator could take to mediate the case are:

a. Restrict the seller’s posting in their website in the case of no police report.
b. If this fails to remedy the situation. Request for the IC No and address from the online sales facilator for you to lodge the police report. The online sales facilator has their details and has the right under their user agreement to provide these details to buyers if their mediation fails at this point.
c. If a copy of the police reported is given, the seller’s account is suspended or banned

d. This is the most effective weapon against the unscrupulous and obstinate seller. They are not afraid of complaints or the police but they will be very afraid that you hurt their pockets. Once the online sales facilator restricts their account, they will be unable to ply their trade online. If their accounts are further suspended or banned it will be worst for them. No doubt they can also register a new account under different names and do trading but they will lose the thousands of artworks and the many written sales pitches which they have painstaking done not to mention losing the goodwill of the business name and changing of the business address.

[In my case, leonjunyin panicked! He quickly appealed to Lelong to have his restriction lifted but to no avail. So like “a dog with his tail between his legs”, he quickly refunded my money without a whimper.]

In most cases, the dispute will end with the mediation of the online sales facilator. What if the case cannot be settled or in the unfortunate event that you did not buy the product through the online sales facilators like Lelong, etc? Don’t worry you have your consumer’s rights protected with the following further steps.

4. Go to the sales page where you bought the product. Obtain the name and address. Lodge a police report with your purchase receipt and your written communication with the seller.

5. Lodge a complaint with the Ministry of Domestic Trade, Co-operatives & Consumerism with the copy of the police report. Their website is here:

http://ttpm.kpdnkk.gov.my/portal/index.php/en/

Refer here for a step by step guide on how to file your case:

https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/2090666

You don’t have to employ a lawyer or incur expensive litigation fees to protect your rights. Just lodge your complaint with the facts of your case to the above Consumer Tribunal to adjudicate your case. It’s free and you can even lodge your case online to their e-tribunal! Note that the police report is not a necessity. If it is a clear case of fraud or cheating, the police report will enhance your case. If not, you can always lodge a complaint to the Consumer Tribunal without police report for them to decide. They are more tilted/sympathetic towards consumers rather than sellers.

6. You can also bring your case to the various Consumers Association for them to handle the case for you.

7. In order for you to alert other innocent consumers to avoid these unscrupulous sellers, you can highlight your case to the various newspapers and the internet forums. When you highlight your case with the name of the seller, Google and other search engines will pick up their names in alerting the world wide audience. Like in this case I found out about this forum and that there are many complaints against “leonjunyin” in cari_gold, Lowyat, etc.

Know your rights and don’t let these unscrupulous/obstinate sellers run roughshod all over you!


This post has been edited by sharp56: May 16 2013, 01:42 PM

Timing of the action of complaint/request for refund is also very important. You should have requested for refund as soon as practical i.e as soon as knowing the defects. If one does not take action promptly and continue to use the product, the law will assume that you have foregone your rights. Besides, for a refund, one is required to return the product in its original condition which may pose a problem if the item has been in use for a while.

Still the best recourse for you is to highlight the detail of the defects in the various internet forum so that other innocent buyers will not face the same problem as you did. If the seller is wise and has good business sense to avoid tarnishing of his reputation, he would volunteer to refund the money to you.

Then in that case you have a good case against him. Gather your written correspondences/proof with him and lodge a complaint against him to the Ministry of Domestic Trade (website enclosed in 1st post) and let the consumer tribunal decides. You got nothing to lose except for your time. Do not delay as I have said delay can work against you as the law may assume that you forgo your rights. Let unscrupulous sellers know we consumers have our rights!

Boycotting Lelong is good but not enough to teach these unscrupulous sellers a lesson. Your friend should have lodged a police report and send the police report to Lelong to have his account suspended or banned. If nothing else, this will only hurt him because he will have no oppurtunity to do trading in Lelong or the opportunity to cheat someone else. If your friend let it go like that (even for a small amount) these sellers will keep on cheating.

[Sorry, my bad... edited to friend]

This post has been edited by sharp56: May 13 2013, 04:06 PM

Lol...I don't sell phones or for that matter any products here or anywhere else. Where is my add in garage sales? Point it out. It's obvious you are a lackey for leonjunyin sent here for damage control. For your information I'm a chartered accountant by profession and has retired.

This post has been edited by sharp56: May 13 2013, 04:26 PM

My bad...I thought he was referring to me when he quoted me. My sincere apology to zachozoi.

Sorry, bro. My sincere apology.

Guys, you know what? This leonjunyin sent me his latest sms last night at 12.17am (I was asleep) threatening me. He swore he would come from Selangor to Kulim (the product dispatch address; not my residence address as I am at the office during dispatch hours) to find me if I DO NOT REMOVE MY POSTINGS! It would be a great injustice if he would harm someone else at that address instead of me. Anyway, I will be lodging a police report with a copy of his sms and phone no.

To leonjunyin
I wonder you are even mature in doing business, mostly shooting on your own foot, rude with your customers and taking things personal. In business you can't please all the buyers all the time. There will be good and bad reviews. If bad reviews make the wrong right and improve on the customers service and move on. If you feel that I have wronged you, by all means come to this thread and argue out your points. Convince the internet community that you are right. Not by causing harm whenever someone criticizes you or things not going your way! You a a graduate of UTAR and keen internet user. Don't your education teaches you in a forum you argue out your case and not re-sought to violence?

Why do you release snippets of our sms conversation but not the whole conversation giving the excuse that you don't know how but you already know how to do part of it? Certainly I have not used the f...f...f... words as it is beyond my dignity to use such words. Release the whole conversation to prove that I have used the f...f..f... words and that I have been rude to you so that the internet community can judge for themselves.

I have been polite with you until you, without provocation, say that I'm not a man of success because I chase you like that or cannot wait for your reply. I have already waited two weeks for your product and called/sms you many times. Put yourself into my shoes. And how would you know I am a man of success or not?

Yes, I may have called you a cheat but that was only when you said you won't refund the money on the pretext that I have been rude to you. But that is not justified? How else to describe a person who is reluctant to refund? In a buy/sell situation and in law, either you send the goods or refund the money. There's no two way about it. You can't withhold refund just someone is rude or require an apology as a condition/prerequisite for refund. If you had claimed you had wanted to refund me right from the start, why even at the stage of the mediation by Lelong, the mediator had to ask you " Would holding the buyer's payment fair for you?" and resought to restricting your account before you relented to refund me. If you had been sincere in refunding the money without apology, it need not have progressed to such stage. That's why somebody asked whether you are mature enough to conduct a business.

If I were a man of violence or vengeance I would have dispatched some goons to your shop outlet in Cheras to confront you. But that is not right over a small matter. It's just not worth the trouble to get my hands and dignity stained over a petty quarrel. I have got my refund and that's the end for me. I do not want to quarrel with you like a little kid and I would like to move on. You should too!

Please understand I write this advice of consumers protection is to educate the whole internet community when their consumers' rights are trampled upon by unscrupulous sellers at large (not you). I would not remove my postings as it might be useful for others in the internet community.

Please reflect on this and I wish you all the best for your business.

This post has been edited by sharp56: May 16 2013, 01:44 PM

Since the seller brought up the issue that I was rude and he was eager to refund all along, let him provide the evidence. In the event that does not provide the full correct evidence only then I will correct the situation.

I don't want to prolong this petty quarrel as I have received the refund. This is to save him face because the evidence will not to be in his favour.

I know you're holding the popcorn and enjoying the show

If you care to look at the first page, nothing is going to be brought to court and nothing is about a contest of evidence. I wrote the passage constructively to share my experience as to how to protect our consumers' rights and encourage those consumers who had their rights trampled upon to fight for their rights. That's all.

Apparent this thread has already helped danny_sp15. He finally got refund back when he asserted his consumer's right.

Sorry to disappoint you. No Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) show today.

This post has been edited by sharp56: May 14 2013, 03:56 PM

The hell I apologized to leonjunyin. What weed are you smoking?

Isn't it too obvious that a newcomer with 0 post came to say good things about you and you loaned him your product? And he is about the only one who has good things to say about you. It's a childish endeavor to hoodwink forumers.

I have already let bygones be bygones as it was a small sum of money and I have already got my refund. And still you want to bring up my name to stir up and focus on your wrong doings. Are you experienced enough to do business and know what is damage control?

I'm not at all surprised at the long list of complains listed by macpro2.

I don't want to be seen siding with macpro2. For the record, I bought 4 items from him and I have no problem whatsoever with him. On the last occasion, he even refunded my deposit without questions asked. Not at all like the horrid experience I had with leonjunyin.

Read my advice on the first page. Contact the seller and ask for refund within a certain time frame eg 24 hours. After the expiry of the time frame and if there is no action from the seller, contact lelong.com and ask them to intervene. Lelong.com will contact the seller to demand the refund for you from the seller. Otherwise the seller account will get suspended from lelong. When the seller's business hurts, remedial action from him will come quickly. Normally this step will solve your problem. If it still doesn't you have further avenues which I have mentioned in my first post. Hope this helps.

This post has been edited by sharp56: Jan 3 2014, 12:06 AM