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> Berlin Approves Huge Tank Deal with Indonesia

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TSazriel
post May 8 2013, 08:00 PM, updated 13y ago

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QUOTE
Arms Exports: Berlin Approves Huge Tank Deal with Indonesia

May 08, 2013 – 10:54 AM
By Matthias Gebauer and Otfried Nassauer

In recent years, Chancellor Angela Merkel's government has significantly expanded German arms exports abroad, often to countries with questionable human rights records. Now Berlin has approved a deal to export over 100 tanks to Indonesia.

The German government has once again approved a controversial deal to export arms to a country with questionable democratic credentials. The German Security Council, which meets in secret, has approved a deal by defense firm Rheinmetall to export 104 Leopard 2 battle tanks to Indonesia.

In addition, 50 Marder 1A2 infantry fighting vehicles are to be delivered as part of the deal, as are 10 other military vehicles, including armored recovery vehicles, mobile bridges and military engineering vehicles. While the broad outlines of the deal had been reported by Reuters previously, the exact numbers of tanks and armored vehicles involved come from a government response to a parliamentary inquiry made by Green Party lawmaker Katja Keul and seen by SPIEGEL ONLINE.

Indonesia's interest in German arms had long been apparent, but Berlin had remained silent on its intentions. Previously, Indonesia had approached the Netherlands regarding its interest in acquiring Leopard tanks, which are widely considered to be the most modern battle tanks available. But the Dutch parliament declined to approve the deal due to concerns about the human rights situation in Indonesia. Jakarta then turned to Germany. The German parliament has no veto right over arms deals.

Rheinmetall has further developed the Leopard tank, providing it with greater protection and systems allowing for street fighting in residential areas. It is this model, called MBT Revolution, in which Indonesia was interested.

Changing Approach to Weapons Deals

A possible arms deal with Indonesia was under discussion as far back as the summer of 2012, when Chancellor Angela Merkel visited the country. At the time, Jakarta was open about its interest in military vehicles made in Germany, saying the anticipated deal was merely an effort to update its weapons systems and insisted the tanks would not be used against its own people, during protests, for example. Still, human rights activists were concerned about the possible deal. Amnesty International accuses Jakarta of contravening human rights in some provinces and the country ranks 100th on Transparency International's corruption index.

The German Security Council, made up of the chancellor and select cabinet members, has approved several deals to export tanks in recent years, thereby significantly changing the country's erstwhile restrictive approach to arms exports. Previous governments had approved deals involving the export of warships and submarines to questionable countries because it is difficult to use such weapons against the civilian population. Tanks, however, remained taboo. "That which floats is okay. That which rolls is not." Such was the dictum followed during the long reign of former Foreign Minister Dietrich Genscher.

Regional Interests

More recently, however, billion-euro tank deals have been approved as a matter of course. In recent years, the security council has approved export deals to such autocratic countries as Saudi Arabia, justifying the decision by pointing to the importance of regional stability to Germany's own national interests. Saudi Arabia, for example, is seen as a strategic counterweight to Iran and also cooperates intensely with German secret services in the fight against international terrorism.

A similar argument was used to justify the approval of an arms deal involving the export of tanks to Qatar. Berlin granted Krauss-Maffei Wegmann permission in April to export 62 Leopard 2 tanks in addition to other military vehicles in a deal worth €1.89 billion. Rheinmetall is an important supplier in the deal, delivering the canons and weapons systems for the tanks in addition to machine guns, spare parts and munitions.

"Qatar is in many areas an important partner for Germany and the European Union in the region. In addition, it has legitimate security and defense interests," Berlin said in defending the deal. The justification would likely be similar for a deal with Qatar's neighbor, United Arab Emirates. According to the response to Keul's inquiry, the country received permission last year to purchase machine guns and other weaponry, including munitions, from German production.


source

Saudi Arabia Leopard 2A7+ deal approval have been delayed until September after German Federal Election...
herrkolisch
post May 8 2013, 08:04 PM

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still waiting for their buluh runcing ganyang malaysia army... tak sampai-sampai lagi...their sampan very slow..
HarDiE
post May 8 2013, 08:17 PM

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hensem gak tank ni... but tank is obsolete

airforce ftw.
SmartGuy1990
post May 8 2013, 08:29 PM

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we need a tank for what? wakkakakakaka
Irzani
post May 8 2013, 08:33 PM

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Banyaknya duit ... mesti Jakarta penuh dengan orang kaya dan tiada fakir miskin

pziv2
post May 8 2013, 08:35 PM

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that tank can't cross 80% of their bridges!


deanmalenko
post May 8 2013, 08:36 PM

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rasakan malon!
Irzani
post May 8 2013, 08:37 PM

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QUOTE(pziv2 @ May 8 2013, 08:35 PM)
that tank can't cross 80% of their bridges!
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oi oi .. cry.gif
KYPMbangi
post May 8 2013, 08:39 PM

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Now everybody got tank

You got tank
I got tank
All of you got tank
Kaellis
post May 8 2013, 08:39 PM

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Air superiority wins all
-storm-
post May 8 2013, 08:54 PM

Hmmm........
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I think is their songlap project. buy already don't have the logistic to fight a real war, tanks sitting around without fuel.
TSazriel
post May 8 2013, 09:16 PM

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Rheinmetall Defence displayed the Leopard MBT Revolution during Indo Defence Expo 2012 last year.

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anangryorc
post May 8 2013, 09:16 PM

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Mammoth Tank!
hieroplant
post May 8 2013, 09:18 PM

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QUOTE(KYPMbangi @ May 8 2013, 08:39 PM)
Now everybody got tank

You got tank
I got tank
All of you got tank
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oprah biggrin.gif
botlife
post May 8 2013, 09:18 PM

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nice toy
ray123
post May 8 2013, 09:21 PM

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in b4 someone asks why our deals are so much more expensive than theirs, followed by atreyu and yinchet to come in and sigh before explaining...
ticke
post May 8 2013, 09:21 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ May 8 2013, 08:00 PM)
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source

Saudi Arabia Leopard 2A7+ deal approval have been delayed until September after German Federal Election...
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I think if shoot can reach Melaka? hahaha
yinchet
post May 8 2013, 09:22 PM

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we should buy 600 e-kornet launcher and 10000 e-kornet missile.
KYPMbangi
post May 8 2013, 09:23 PM

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QUOTE(anangryorc @ May 8 2013, 09:16 PM)
Mammoth Tank!
*
60 frickin' tonne of modular armor!
ray123
post May 8 2013, 09:26 PM

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Our terrain is like a jungle Stalingrad, the tanks will get bogged down.
OrangCacat
post May 8 2013, 09:27 PM

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nevermind we build nuclear
yinchet
post May 8 2013, 09:29 PM

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QUOTE(ray123 @ May 8 2013, 09:21 PM)
in b4 someone asks why our deals are so much more expensive than theirs, followed by atreyu and yinchet to come in and sigh before explaining...
*
They have a better deal than our mbt.
but than again with the MAF requirement below 50tons.
so no Leo 2 for us. sad.gif
KYPMbangi
post May 8 2013, 09:30 PM

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Did they test it before buying with other types of tanks, like what we did?
yinchet
post May 8 2013, 09:31 PM

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QUOTE(ray123 @ May 8 2013, 09:26 PM)
Our terrain is like a jungle Stalingrad, the tanks will get bogged down.
*
which is y MAF put a weight limit of below 50tons in its requirement.
souless223
post May 8 2013, 09:34 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 09:31 PM)
which is y MAF put a weight limit of below 50tons in its requirement.
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habis lah indo tank too heavy, later need strip some armor to make it lighter xD
malaysia need invest in anti-armor ammos now
yinchet
post May 8 2013, 09:36 PM

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QUOTE(souless223 @ May 8 2013, 09:34 PM)
habis lah indo tank too heavy, later need strip some armor to make it lighter xD
malaysia need invest in anti-armor ammos now
*
buy even more long range ATGM.
for example E-kornet and TOW.

This post has been edited by yinchet: May 8 2013, 09:38 PM
souless223
post May 8 2013, 09:37 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 09:36 PM)
but even more long range ATGM.
for example E-kornet and TOW.
*
E-kornet liable in our jungle? later hit tree gone

yinchet
post May 8 2013, 09:39 PM

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QUOTE(souless223 @ May 8 2013, 09:37 PM)
E-kornet liable in our jungle? later hit tree gone
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Go higher ground. laugh.gif
souless223
post May 8 2013, 09:42 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 09:39 PM)
Go higher ground. laugh.gif
*
still too many branches and shit. our forest is think on the canopy area high group would not even do much IMO.
short range is probably best for us just get several sleeper personel camp every place.
infact minewarfare is not out of the question biggrin.gif
KYPMbangi
post May 8 2013, 09:43 PM

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Attack chopper incoming?
yinchet
post May 8 2013, 09:45 PM

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QUOTE(souless223 @ May 8 2013, 09:42 PM)
still too many branches and shit. our forest is think on the canopy area high group would not even do much IMO.
short range is probably best for us just get several sleeper personel camp every place.
infact minewarfare is not out of the question biggrin.gif
*
actually I dun think there will be a problem.
missile will hit the tanks anyway.
ray123
post May 8 2013, 09:45 PM

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What we need are mobile suits like Kurata that can wade in rough terrain and still take out an armored unit.
yinchet
post May 8 2013, 09:46 PM

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QUOTE(ray123 @ May 8 2013, 09:45 PM)
What we need are mobile suits like Kurata that can wade in rough terrain and still take out an armored unit.
*
would love to have that.
but we dun have the money and tech. laugh.gif
souless223
post May 8 2013, 09:47 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 09:45 PM)
actually I dun think there will be a problem.
missile will hit the tanks anyway.
*
well if malaysia showed some demo of a missle flying through our jungle and actually hitting target than id be impress
megat89
post May 8 2013, 09:51 PM

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QUOTE(souless223 @ May 8 2013, 09:47 PM)
well if malaysia showed some demo of a missle flying through our jungle and actually hitting target than id be impress
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go asahan camp la..i tot every year they test their weapon there..tank, adnan, rpg, hawk dropping cluster bomb..even sukhoi also got bombing there..dont know public can view or not..

This post has been edited by megat89: May 8 2013, 09:52 PM
yinchet
post May 8 2013, 09:54 PM

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QUOTE(megat89 @ May 8 2013, 09:51 PM)
go asahan camp la..i tot every year they test their weapon there..tank, adnan, rpg, hawk dropping cluster bomb..even sukhoi also got bombing there..dont know public can view or not..
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boleh pergi sana meh?
souless223
post May 8 2013, 09:56 PM

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QUOTE(megat89 @ May 8 2013, 09:51 PM)
go asahan camp la..i tot every year they test their weapon there..tank, adnan, rpg, hawk dropping cluster bomb..even sukhoi also got bombing there..dont know public can view or not..
*
i dont think can go there bro tongue.gif
megat89
post May 8 2013, 09:58 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 09:54 PM)
boleh pergi sana meh?
*
dont know for public..but for media yes..
some pics..
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SurauKampung/message/9658
SUSJyunkai
post May 8 2013, 09:59 PM

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QUOTE(Kaellis @ May 8 2013, 08:39 PM)
Air superiority wins all
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so Singapore>indon and malaysia?
yinchet
post May 8 2013, 09:59 PM

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QUOTE(megat89 @ May 8 2013, 09:58 PM)
dont know for public..but for media yes..
some pics..
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SurauKampung/message/9658
*
lol stand punya pic.
megat89
post May 8 2013, 10:00 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 09:59 PM)
lol stand punya pic.
*
i read about asahan in perajurit magazine if not mistaken..haha..
TSazriel
post May 8 2013, 10:01 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 09:29 PM)
They have a better deal than our mbt.
but than again with the MAF requirement below 50tons.
so no Leo 2 for us. sad.gif
*
The Japanese Type 10 tank weight is only 43 tons.

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IINM since 2012 the Japanese has lifted it's boycott of arms export.
yinchet
post May 8 2013, 10:03 PM

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QUOTE(azriel @ May 8 2013, 10:01 PM)
The Japanese Type 10 tank weight is only 43 tons.

IINM since 2012 the Japanese has lifted it's boycott of arms export.
*
the most expensive MBT.
actually it more than 43tons. it come with modular armor can add or reduce the modular armor based on mission.
ray123
post May 8 2013, 10:04 PM

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I'm surprised that we haven't evolved beyond line-of-sight type anti-tank missiles for the infantry to use. Isn't there anything that you fire straight up and then drops down on the target from above, bypassing any obstructions in between like foliage and buildings? Is that called ATGM?

This post has been edited by ray123: May 8 2013, 10:06 PM
TSazriel
post May 8 2013, 10:07 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 10:03 PM)
the most expensive MBT.
actually it more than 43tons. it come with modular armor can add or reduce the modular armor based on mission.
*
Yes full equipped 48 tons. I was about to write don't ask about the price though. LOL.
cks2k2
post May 8 2013, 10:07 PM

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QUOTE(ray123 @ May 8 2013, 10:04 PM)
I'm surprised that we haven't evolved beyond line-of-sight type anti-tank missiles for the infantry to use. Isn't there anything that you fire straight up and then drops down on the target from above, bypassing any obstructions in between like foliage and buildings? Is that called ATGM?
*
i think the javelin atgm already does that

This post has been edited by cks2k2: May 8 2013, 10:08 PM
ray123
post May 8 2013, 10:09 PM

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QUOTE(cks2k2 @ May 8 2013, 10:07 PM)
i think the javelin atgn already does that
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I remember reading about the Javelin way back in the 90s.

Maybe we should just stick to drones. Our drone pilots can get flight practice by hovering above opposition politicians to monitor them.
souless223
post May 8 2013, 10:11 PM

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QUOTE(ray123 @ May 8 2013, 10:09 PM)
I remember reading about the Javelin way back in the 90s.

Maybe we should just stick to drones. Our drone pilots can get flight practice by hovering above opposition politicians to monitor them.
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wowowowwo dont derail this.
lucifer_666
post May 8 2013, 10:11 PM

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our tanks lined up ready for deployment

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yinchet
post May 8 2013, 10:13 PM

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QUOTE(ray123 @ May 8 2013, 10:04 PM)
I'm surprised that we haven't evolved beyond line-of-sight type anti-tank missiles for the infantry to use. Isn't there anything that you fire straight up and then drops down on the target from above, bypassing any obstructions in between like foliage and buildings? Is that called ATGM?
*
we have javelin.
conan1
post May 8 2013, 10:14 PM

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wait..ayam kambing...rpggg!! shoooooo..kabooom!
cks2k2
post May 8 2013, 10:21 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 10:03 PM)
the most expensive MBT.
actually it more than 43tons. it come with modular armor can add or reduce the modular armor based on mission.
*
i thought the korean tank was the most expensive.
hg_runt
post May 8 2013, 10:29 PM

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QUOTE(Jyunkai @ May 8 2013, 09:59 PM)
so Singapore>indon and malaysia?
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atreyuangel
post May 8 2013, 10:34 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 09:22 PM)
we should buy 600 e-kornet launcher and 10000 e-kornet missile.
*
double the figure and I say yes
hahahaha

QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 09:29 PM)
They have a better deal than our mbt.
but than again with the MAF requirement below 50tons.
so no Leo 2 for us. sad.gif
*
Sabar, siapkan doctrine dulu!

QUOTE(souless223 @ May 8 2013, 09:37 PM)
E-kornet liable in our jungle? later hit tree gone
*
can be wire control!
yinchet
post May 8 2013, 11:21 PM

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QUOTE(cks2k2 @ May 8 2013, 10:21 PM)
i thought the korean tank was the most expensive.
*
Black panther could cost at least USD10mil
but Type 10 MBT can easily reach USD20mil
Leclerc would be taking no1 crown USD27mil
not sure about C1 Ariete

QUOTE(atreyuangel @ May 8 2013, 10:34 PM)
double the figure and I say yes
hahahaha
Sabar, siapkan doctrine dulu!
can be wire control!
*
mana boleh duduk senang dua jiran kita pakai Leo 2

This post has been edited by yinchet: May 8 2013, 11:22 PM
gestapo
post May 8 2013, 11:24 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 11:21 PM)
mana boleh duduk senang dua jiran kita pakai Leo 2
*
can upgrade to T90??
yinchet
post May 8 2013, 11:29 PM

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QUOTE(gestapo @ May 8 2013, 11:24 PM)
can upgrade to T90??
*
adding T-90 tech wont be a problem.
souless223
post May 8 2013, 11:30 PM

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QUOTE(atreyuangel @ May 8 2013, 10:34 PM)
double the figure and I say yes
hahahaha
Sabar, siapkan doctrine dulu!
can be wire control!
*
wire control would be more liable tbh.
i wonder if malaysia will inject some capital for R&D for military
time to start selling our own tech in the future biggrin.gif
bukulima
post May 8 2013, 11:33 PM

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QUOTE(herrkolisch @ May 8 2013, 08:04 PM)
still waiting for their buluh runcing ganyang malaysia army... tak sampai-sampai lagi...their sampan very slow..
*
THIS
gestapo
post May 9 2013, 01:29 AM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 8 2013, 11:29 PM)
adding T-90 tech wont be a problem.
*
maybe integrate our own composite armor tech

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