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TSkwwk87
post May 8 2013, 11:13 AM, updated 13y ago

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http://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=67266433&f=68&o=0

Do you guys think there will be a rollback or Blizzard will go "Deal with it" style?
waklu
post May 8 2013, 11:13 AM

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they wont

you heard it first from me doh.gif
cheer83
post May 8 2013, 12:01 PM

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possible

lksing78
post May 8 2013, 12:34 PM

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OMG i lost count in convert to USD de sweat.gif
olman
post May 8 2013, 01:21 PM

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nooooOOOOOO
metalfreak
post May 8 2013, 01:22 PM

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IN COMING PATCH FIX
TSkwwk87
post May 8 2013, 01:26 PM

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Jeng jeng jeng! brows.gif
olman
post May 8 2013, 01:34 PM

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QUOTE(metalfreak @ May 8 2013, 01:22 PM)
IN COMING PATCH FIX
*
mmm wat will they break next? brows.gif

i thought it was some ppl manipulating the gem prices until now brows.gif
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 02:18 PM

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I'd sold 50 Radiant Emerald gems (got them b4 Patch 1.0.8) for 100m gold per piece legitimately, please don't rollback ...oO!

This post has been edited by MOBAJOBG: May 8 2013, 02:20 PM
waklu
post May 8 2013, 02:23 PM

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rollback is the only solution, how do you remove trillion gold from the system since the new patch exploit?

If you ban exploiter, what about the exploited money they have use to bought something from AH for 2B for eg..how do you remove the circulated trillions without rollback?

This post has been edited by waklu: May 8 2013, 02:24 PM
TSkwwk87
post May 8 2013, 02:28 PM

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^
Well said, that what I thought as well. Just rollback to the end of 1.07, and reapply 1.08..
olman
post May 8 2013, 02:43 PM

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no rollback, cos now u can play

but AH/RMAH is still down for fixing
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 02:47 PM

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I believe the correct procedure is to track down the culprits that perform the gold exploit and then, banned their D3 accounts outright who can still make an appeal to rollback their accounts to the state just b4 Patch 1.0.8 thus rending all their gears account bound!

[Edited a few minutes later]
People who get a windfall by selling their gears or items for gold legitimately should enjoy their fortunes.

This post has been edited by MOBAJOBG: May 8 2013, 02:55 PM
alphaz
post May 8 2013, 02:53 PM

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rollback is better
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 02:54 PM

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QUOTE(alphaz @ May 8 2013, 02:53 PM)
rollback is better
*
...that's unfair to people who have made their gold legitimately without resorting to any exploit.
olman
post May 8 2013, 03:01 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 02:47 PM)
I believe the correct procedure is to track down the culprits that perform the gold exploit and then, banned their D3 accounts outright who can still make an appeal to rollback their accounts to the state just b4 Patch 1.0.8 thus rending all their gears account bound!

[Edited a few minutes later]
People who get a windfall by selling their gears or items for gold legitimately should enjoy their fortunes.
*
im in da waterfall category, was casually ceking AH then suddenly 100M number appeared
thats wen i decide to sell all mah gems lulz brows.gif
alphaz
post May 8 2013, 03:34 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 02:54 PM)
...that's unfair to people who have made their gold legitimately without resorting to any exploit.
*
imo you wouldn't be able to made that "legit" gold without that exploit happening in the first place.
however a rollback would be unfair to those who found/crafted gg loot though.
waklu
post May 8 2013, 03:36 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 02:54 PM)
...that's unfair to people who have made their gold legitimately without resorting to any exploit.
*
do you ever wonder from where the 100M came from? please la dude..just think before you post this PoS comment
cheer83
post May 8 2013, 03:43 PM

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even thought i make 2b by selling few of my RS gem , but im still support ROLLBACK !! , that is disastrous everything 2b
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 03:45 PM

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@waklu
I'm just trying to figure out the most probable cause of action that Blizzard will undertake, ...please read the 1st post for its confirmation. There is no need for you to smear me at all.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8770118014?page=1

[Edited a few minutes later]
After this fiasco has been resolved, please sack the "trainee" programmer.

This post has been edited by MOBAJOBG: May 8 2013, 03:49 PM
yuhhaur
post May 8 2013, 03:48 PM

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QUOTE(cheer83 @ May 8 2013, 03:43 PM)
that is disastrous  everything 2b
*
+100

waklu
post May 8 2013, 03:49 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 03:45 PM)
^I'm just explaining what Blizzard will do, ...please read the 1st post for its confirmation.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8770118014?page=1
*
ignorance is bliss aye?

Yes i did sell the gem as well, but this is not right at all. Roll back is the only obvious solution here. Don't deny the fact that quadrillion gold is already circulated into the system via transfers, AH purchases yada yada. How do you take out that money from the system?

SUS2890
post May 8 2013, 03:50 PM

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Rollback no rollback, everything awesome is not in the AH and even if it was there, 2b bid at 1d11h so pretty much the same to me.
huoshenfeng124
post May 8 2013, 03:51 PM

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why blizzard like to release patch which is not tested by their own development teams before making it live , haiz
SUS2890
post May 8 2013, 03:52 PM

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QUOTE(waklu @ May 8 2013, 03:49 PM)
ignorance is bliss aye?

Yes i did sell the gem as well, but this is not right at all. Roll back is the only obvious solution here. Don't deny the fact that quadrillion gold is already circulated into the system via transfers, AH purchases yada yada. How do you take out that money from the system?
*
before 1.0.8 came, only say 5% of the players can afford top end gears. Now that 108 hits, is still the same 5% (okay maybe those dupers made it 10%).

yuhhaur
post May 8 2013, 03:53 PM

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Nasib baik I got nothing worth to upgrade atm whistling.gif (even with 50m in pocket also can't find decent upgrade)
Sabenarian
post May 8 2013, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE(waklu @ May 8 2013, 03:49 PM)
ignorance is bliss aye?

Yes i did sell the gem as well, but this is not right at all. Roll back is the only obvious solution here. Don't deny the fact that quadrillion gold is already circulated into the system via transfers, AH purchases yada yada. How do you take out that money from the system?
*
Rollback... pls rollback..don care if I lost that Bs i make this morning..
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE(waklu @ May 8 2013, 03:49 PM)
ignorance is bliss aye?

Yes i did sell the gem as well, but this is not right at all. Roll back is the only obvious solution here. Don't deny the fact that quadrillion gold is already circulated into the system via transfers, AH purchases yada yada. How do you take out that money from the system?
*
You're definitely entitled to your opinion however that doesn't invalidate my opinion.
TSkwwk87
post May 8 2013, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE(yuhhaur @ May 8 2013, 03:48 PM)
+100
*
+200
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 03:56 PM

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The decision has been made already and that is "No Rollback".
cheer83
post May 8 2013, 03:56 PM

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actually the main problem is auction house , nothing else . blizzard should make a poll to the community and decided by the community , so everyone will respect and follow the result whether want to rollback or no . if this problem cant be solve i will say RIP diablo 3
SUS2890
post May 8 2013, 03:57 PM

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QUOTE(Sabenarian @ May 8 2013, 03:54 PM)
Rollback... pls rollback..don care if I lost that Bs i make this morning..
*
why on earth you want a rollback?

Say you made 3b, do you think prices of items will still stay the same?
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 03:58 PM

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The problem of rollback is all gears would be account bound for everyone!
alphaz
post May 8 2013, 04:00 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 03:58 PM)
The problem of rollback is all gears would be account bound for everyone!
*
er, what?
yuhhaur
post May 8 2013, 04:01 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 03:58 PM)
The problem of rollback is all gears would be account bound for everyone!
*
I believe If they really do server wide rollback, this does not applies.

MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 04:02 PM

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QUOTE(yuhhaur @ May 8 2013, 04:01 PM)
I believe If they really do server wide rollback, this does not applies.
*
No, it's in the program and I'm a software developer so I know the implication ...sorry, you've been misguided in your belief!

This post has been edited by MOBAJOBG: May 8 2013, 04:03 PM
alphaz
post May 8 2013, 04:03 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 04:02 PM)
No, it's in the program and I'm a software developer so I know the implication.
*
any link from blizzard to prove this?
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 04:04 PM

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QUOTE(alphaz @ May 8 2013, 04:03 PM)
any link from blizzard to prove this?
*
Come on, please search it yourself!
waklu
post May 8 2013, 04:04 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 03:54 PM)
You're definitely entitled to your opinion however that doesn't invalidate my opinion.
*
rejoice then on your LEGIT billions then, I'm just trying to understand your so called legitimate made money opinion.

well, blizzard is blizzard. Even after this fiasco, if you try to think for a sec, its Bliz that profited anyway. 15% of RMAH transaction anyone? /tinfoil
yuhhaur
post May 8 2013, 04:04 PM

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Now we just see if the RS gems price crash back to 20m each or stay at 1-200m, or move up to 500m brows.gif
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 04:05 PM

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QUOTE(waklu @ May 8 2013, 04:04 PM)
rejoice then on your LEGIT billions then, I'm just trying to understand your so called legitimate made money opinion.

well, blizzard is blizzard. Even after this fiasco, if you try to think for a sec, its Bliz that profited anyway. 15% of RMAH transaction anyone? /tinfoil
*
No, I'm definitely not happy with the situation that has transpired at all because I think Blizzard needs to sack the "trainee" programmer.

This post has been edited by MOBAJOBG: May 8 2013, 04:06 PM
cheer83
post May 8 2013, 04:06 PM

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yea ,we sell RS gem for 200m is happy, what if someone want to buy it with 80m budget that used to be 20m+ each ?

This post has been edited by cheer83: May 8 2013, 04:07 PM
yuhhaur
post May 8 2013, 04:07 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 04:02 PM)
No, it's in the program and I'm a software developer so I know the implication ...sorry, you've been misguided in your belief!
*
Sorry but I'm a software engineer too whistling.gif
this is not the case of "select xxx from yyy where zzz" case.
this shall be take the pre-108 backup, restore it into the database via dump/load.

waklu
post May 8 2013, 04:07 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 04:05 PM)
No, I'm definitely not happy with the situation that has transpired at all.
*
owh you are not happy? ok rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 04:08 PM

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QUOTE(yuhhaur @ May 8 2013, 04:04 PM)
Now we just see if the RS gems price crash back to 20m each or stay at 1-200m, or move up to 500m brows.gif
*
Of course, it's going to be in the range of 20m to 100m gold per piece of RS gem.
Sabenarian
post May 8 2013, 04:09 PM

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QUOTE(yuhhaur @ May 8 2013, 04:07 PM)
Sorry but I'm a software engineer too whistling.gif
this is not the case of "select xxx from yyy where zzz" case.
this shall be take the pre-108 backup, restore it into the database via dump/load.
*
+100
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 04:10 PM

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QUOTE(yuhhaur @ May 8 2013, 04:07 PM)
Sorry but I'm a software engineer too whistling.gif
this is not the case of "select xxx from yyy where zzz" case.
this shall be take the pre-108 backup, restore it into the database via dump/load.
*
Ahhh, ...full restoration from a backup!, is different from rollback! then I agree with you.

This post has been edited by MOBAJOBG: May 8 2013, 04:11 PM
SUS2890
post May 8 2013, 04:10 PM

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Just go play the game. Gear up and move on.
waklu
post May 8 2013, 04:10 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 04:08 PM)
Of course, it's going to be in the range of 20m to 100m gold per piece of RS gem.
*
question

How do you expect people that didn't manage to legitimately make the profit during the exploit window to by 100m RS Gem?
TSkwwk87
post May 8 2013, 04:15 PM

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in the near future..

Low budget 2b <insertclassname> MP10 guide!
dreaming
post May 8 2013, 04:15 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 04:02 PM)
No, it's in the program and I'm a software developer so I know the implication ...sorry, you've been misguided in your belief!
*
well, i believe they should have backup the entire database before applying any patch or update.
if they really want to do full rollback, restore database to previous image is not so difficult.

the reasons they giving not to perform rollback are:
1. a full roll back would impact the community in an even greater way; i see a lot of rage in D3 forum
2. it would require significant downtime; every week also have downtime, what so difficult?
3. revert the progress legitimate players have made since patch 1.0.8 was released this morning.

1 & 2 sound stupid.
but 3 is $$$, refunding paypal interface & etc are too complicated for them

QUOTE
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8770118014#1

> 12:00 a.m. PDT: At this time (and after careful consideration), we've decided to not move forward with rolling back the servers. We feel that this is the best course of action given the nature of the dupe, how relatively few players used it, and the fact that its effects were fairly limited within the region. We've been able to successfully identify players who duplicated gold by using this specific bug, and are focusing on these accounts to make corrections. While this is a time-consuming and very detailed process, we believe it's the most appropriate choice given the circumstances. We know that some of you may disagree, but we feel that performing a full roll back would impact the community in an even greater way, as it would require significant downtime as well as revert the progress legitimate players have made since patch 1.0.8 was released this morning.
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 04:16 PM

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QUOTE(waklu @ May 8 2013, 04:10 PM)
question

How do you expect people that didn't manage to legitimately make the profit during the exploit window to by 100m RS Gem?
*
...that's the "golden" era, not everyone gets to partake in it!

This post has been edited by MOBAJOBG: May 8 2013, 04:20 PM
waklu
post May 8 2013, 04:17 PM

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QUOTE(2890 @ May 8 2013, 04:10 PM)
Just go play the game. Gear up and move on.
*
move on, plan to do so. Gear up? nahhh dont think can afford those trillions BiS item laugh.gif

QUOTE(kwwk87 @ May 8 2013, 04:15 PM)
in the near future..

Low budget  2b <insertclassname> MP10 guide!
*
made me lol thumbup.gif
alphaz
post May 8 2013, 04:18 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 04:04 PM)
Come on, please search it yourself!
*
that's a different rollback policy, for cases of false compromised account

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8481098275

https://sea.battle.net/support/en/article/c...blo-iii-account

this gold duping problem is a server side problem due to blizzard's crappy coding. going back in time (i.e full server rollback) is the way to go.
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 04:19 PM

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QUOTE(dreaming @ May 8 2013, 04:15 PM)
well, i believe they should have backup the entire database before applying any patch or update.
if they really want to do full rollback, restore database to previous image is not so difficult.

the reasons they giving not to perform rollback are:
1. a full roll back would impact the community in an even greater way; i see a lot of rage in D3 forum
2. it would require significant downtime; every week also have downtime, what so difficult?
3. revert the progress legitimate players have made since patch 1.0.8 was released this morning.

1 & 2 sound stupid.
but 3 is $$$, refunding paypal interface & etc are too complicated for them
*
I hate to speculate but I think Blizzard didn't perform a full system and database backup just prior to the state of Patch 1.0.8 hence trying their best to avoid the restoration of backup process.

This post has been edited by MOBAJOBG: May 8 2013, 04:19 PM
olman
post May 8 2013, 04:19 PM

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nerfalems vs nerfalems
sorry guys,

ayam software architect lulz

chitchat
post May 8 2013, 04:20 PM

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No need to blame those who got the windfall, is blizzard bug and their decision, so if they say no rollback then no rollback. And those who got the windfall just smile happily but quietly, is wise not to come out in public and upset the others. As everyone know this bug is gonna be bad for the majority of the diablo 3 community, price will definitely hike.

I am one of those that didnt make anything out of this bug, so price hike is gonna be bad for me but let just continue enjoy the game and pray we got some good drop that can sell and earn back some inflated gold laugh.gif

This post has been edited by chitchat: May 8 2013, 04:26 PM
yuhhaur
post May 8 2013, 04:22 PM

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Sadly I was online checking AH at 730am.

* bang head onto wall *


Well Life goes on. Party tonite? Monk had 20% party buff brows.gif

olman
post May 8 2013, 04:26 PM

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damn blizz, AH still down and there is no ETA on when it will b up
yuhhaur
post May 8 2013, 04:28 PM

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QUOTE(olman @ May 8 2013, 04:26 PM)
damn blizz, AH still down and there is no ETA on when it will b up
*
play D3 lo if AH3 not available
Gecko
post May 8 2013, 04:29 PM

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Catch 22 situation or better still..
A Mexican Standoff
n : a situation in which no one can emerge as a clear winner. A poor man's Mutally Assured Destruction
Those who want roll back on 1 side, those who dont want on the other with Blizz in the middle

"Damned if they do, Damned if they dont" lolz
olman
post May 8 2013, 04:29 PM

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QUOTE(yuhhaur @ May 8 2013, 04:28 PM)
play D3 lo if AH3 not available
*
ayam playin now but nid AH to buy TOS to craft back mah RS emerald LULZ icon_idea.gif

donate TOS to the poor pls brows.gif

This post has been edited by olman: May 8 2013, 04:30 PM
yuhhaur
post May 8 2013, 04:31 PM

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QUOTE(olman @ May 8 2013, 04:29 PM)
ayam playin now but nid AH to buy TOS to craft back mah RS emerald LULZ  icon_idea.gif

donate TOS to the poor pls  brows.gif
*
I got a few thousands, sadly they are on RMAH laugh.gif
Gecko
post May 8 2013, 04:32 PM

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QUOTE(olman @ May 8 2013, 04:29 PM)
ayam playin now but nid AH to buy TOS to craft back mah RS emerald LULZ  icon_idea.gif

donate TOS to the poor pls  brows.gif
*
add me in-game .. i got plenty of spare ToS (borong kaw2 b4 price skyrocket earlier lolz)
if u need large amount .. i can give but hv to "return" back when AH is back up ... i got my FS gems in AH stash stuck so cannot use the ToS in my inventory now
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 04:33 PM

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For your information, I'm ashamed to say it ...full system and database backup is (usually) not perform b4 applying software patches or updates. We usually do software program source backup, oO ...bad practise, I know!.

This post has been edited by MOBAJOBG: May 8 2013, 04:43 PM
waklu
post May 8 2013, 04:35 PM

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QUOTE(yuhhaur @ May 8 2013, 04:22 PM)
Sadly I was online checking AH at 730am.

* bang head onto wall *
Well Life goes on. Party tonite? Monk had 20% party buff brows.gif
*
already bought my -5 cyclone strike soj, can me party too? hhahahhahaha
yuhhaur
post May 8 2013, 04:37 PM

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QUOTE(waklu @ May 8 2013, 04:35 PM)
already bought my -5 cyclone strike soj, can me party too? hhahahhahaha
*
puke running CotA, and my monk sent to meditation until gladfly back. I can only use WiZ You need to use CS:Soothing Breeze and run out of the woods then I only accept whistling.gif
dreaming
post May 8 2013, 04:38 PM

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don't tell me such a big lizzard company doesn't employ any system administrator / database administrator? LOL.. laugh.gif

btw, from the prior patches they had applied, it is already indicated they had poor test management, release management, etc.. doh.gif

btw, grat to knew so many IT guys here.. thumbup.gif
yuhhaur
post May 8 2013, 04:41 PM

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QUOTE(dreaming @ May 8 2013, 04:38 PM)
don't tell me such a big lizzard company doesn't employ any system administrator / database administrator? LOL..  laugh.gif

btw, from the prior patches they had applied, it is already indicated they had poor test management, release management, etc..  doh.gif

btw, grat to knew so many IT guys here..  thumbup.gif
*
Well, had to take a visit to the Development hall to see who is sackable this time biggrin.gif
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 04:44 PM

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@dreaming and @yuhhaur
Exactly, their QC fail miserably.

This post has been edited by MOBAJOBG: May 8 2013, 04:45 PM
huoshenfeng124
post May 8 2013, 04:45 PM

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QUOTE(yuhhaur @ May 8 2013, 04:41 PM)
Well, had to take a visit to the Development hall to see who is sackable this time biggrin.gif
*
just like the movie avenger movie some guy playing game while working sweat.gif sweat.gif

olman
post May 8 2013, 04:51 PM

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QUOTE(Gecko @ May 8 2013, 04:32 PM)
add me in-game .. i got plenty of spare ToS (borong kaw2 b4 price skyrocket earlier lolz)
if u need large amount .. i can give but hv to "return" back when AH is back up ... i got my FS gems in AH stash stuck so cannot use the ToS in my inventory now
*
i was kidding.
thx for the offer mang. still wats ur id?
olman
post May 8 2013, 04:54 PM

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QUOTE(MOBAJOBG @ May 8 2013, 04:44 PM)
@dreaming and @yuhhaur
Exactly, their QC fail miserably.
*
wats ur take on this?

no their 1st time to patch and endup breaking something.

my take is they treat D3 like a unwanted child or they moved most staffs to work on other projects eg: TITAN laugh.gif
olman
post May 8 2013, 04:56 PM

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i wonder issit safe to play hardcore now? lulz
MOBAJOBG
post May 8 2013, 05:04 PM

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QUOTE(olman @ May 8 2013, 04:54 PM)
wats ur take on this?

no their 1st time to patch and endup breaking something.

my take is they treat D3 like a unwanted child or they moved most staffs to work on other projects eg: TITAN  laugh.gif
*
Their track record for every patch has been marred with serious program errors/bugs! seems to be coded by "trainee" programmer(s).

This post has been edited by MOBAJOBG: May 8 2013, 05:33 PM
Gecko
post May 8 2013, 05:13 PM

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QUOTE(olman @ May 8 2013, 04:51 PM)
i was kidding.
thx for the offer mang. still wats ur id?
*
my btag Hulkie#6526
i'm in game now if u still need the ToS
dreaming
post May 8 2013, 06:25 PM

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fund this pic.
a glory moment !! rclxms.gif

user posted image
SUSAzurues
post May 8 2013, 07:18 PM

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wtf?

Blizzard memang suck balls weh, every exploit also found after the exploiter destroyed the market
present me
post May 8 2013, 07:21 PM

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QUOTE(waklu @ May 8 2013, 05:35 PM)
already bought my -5 cyclone strike soj, can me party too? hhahahhahaha
*
i also had one same like u soj reduce 5cyclone very nice to use ,save alot spirit ^^ lai try try. .
olman
post May 8 2013, 08:02 PM

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fua AH still down, this must be the biggest f***up in blizz history
farz_marz
post May 8 2013, 08:05 PM

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That dupe really f***up the AH.... Really hope they will rollback...
Sabenarian
post May 8 2013, 09:20 PM

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No wonder Blizz screw up in US... see how they screw me up in EU..
Attached Image

I'm asking in Eng, but got this answer.. wth... I know la can use google translate...

This post has been edited by Sabenarian: May 8 2013, 09:21 PM
alphaz
post May 8 2013, 09:51 PM

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QUOTE(Sabenarian @ May 8 2013, 09:20 PM)
No wonder Blizz screw up in US... see how they screw me up in EU..
Attached Image

I'm asking in Eng, but got this answer.. wth... I know la can use google translate...
*
laugh.gif

This post has been edited by alphaz: May 8 2013, 09:51 PM
olman
post May 8 2013, 09:51 PM

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QUOTE(Sabenarian @ May 8 2013, 09:20 PM)
No wonder Blizz screw up in US... see how they screw me up in EU..
Attached Image

I'm asking in Eng, but got this answer.. wth... I know la can use google translate...
*
hahahahahahaha they thought u r a european
Deckard Cain
post May 9 2013, 02:24 AM

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But how they know which european language they should use to speak to you? is it because in the option you chose this language?
fe3doe
post May 9 2013, 09:26 AM

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WTS RS Gems or Trade with GG Gears... LOL..
PS:JK
Now get back ur a$$ and craft the gems.. hehe tongue.gif

 

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