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 Car Total Loss Claim: Possible Traphole?, JPJ officer refused to sign my borang

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Quazacolt
post Apr 30 2013, 11:00 AM

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QUOTE(ironthomas @ Apr 30 2013, 10:25 AM)
If they gonna sell it by chopping it or as spare parts. Yeah they gonna make some profit. I dont see any problem there because they have paid u the settlement. hmm.gif  Insurance company is just another company trying to make profit and try to reduce it losses.

I may not know TS's car condition or other people cases but insurance company will not suka suka decide a car to be total loss. Cost of repair is much cheaper...
*
yeap that is perfectly understandable smile.gif
no company (including insurance) setups a company just to incur losses.
Dreadnought
post Apr 30 2013, 02:16 PM

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QUOTE(imperialrealcs @ Apr 29 2013, 07:55 PM)
how do u know what they did or u actually guessed?
u think every situation can claim total loss from insurance? dont forget insurance company are the legal conmen in the world. no such thing as u get benefits and they dont.

from your friend situation, the insurance company losses 500k. i dont care about the rest but do u think any sane company would pay 500k just like that without proper investigation?
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QUOTE(ironthomas @ Apr 29 2013, 08:43 PM)
I dont see the insurance company is making any profit here? 1st the insurance company pay ur friends RM500k and sold the wreck car for RM50k... Btw how much insurance premium is ur friend paying? 10k? 100k? rclxub.gif They are still making losses.  Dont think insurance company is involve in fraud cases...
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I work for an insurance company. The car was covered by the company I work for. For additional knowledge on why sometimes insurance companies would pay up without further investigations or with least investigations, do a Google search for companies that own both car manufacturers and insurance companies or subsidiaries that provide captive insurance services to the group of companies.


jaclynjac
post Apr 30 2013, 03:12 PM

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QUOTE(Dreadnought @ Apr 30 2013, 02:16 PM)
I work for an insurance company. The car was covered by the company I work for. For additional knowledge on why sometimes insurance companies would pay up without further investigations or with least investigations, do a Google search for companies that own both car manufacturers and insurance companies or subsidiaries that provide captive insurance services to the group of companies.
*
ooops, looks like a lot of other issues and many more parties are involved besides car owner and insurance company alone. Thanks for sharing
imperialrealcs
post Apr 30 2013, 04:58 PM

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QUOTE(Dreadnought @ Apr 30 2013, 02:16 PM)
I work for an insurance company. The car was covered by the company I work for. For additional knowledge on why sometimes insurance companies would pay up without further investigations or with least investigations, do a Google search for companies that own both car manufacturers and insurance companies or subsidiaries that provide captive insurance services to the group of companies.
*
nevertheless, i never thought insurance company are that stupid?
pay your friend rm500k to settle
spend lets say 10k to refurbish it
sell rm350k as refurbish car?

sorry my math is bad but where is the "profit" that i dont see for the insurance company?

okay, u said they accomplice to fraud.
insurance company paid rm500k to settle
sold to "partner" bengkel for 50k
insurance company still lost 450k.

the bengkel spend 10k repairing it
the bengkel resell for 350k
profit 290k divided by 2, bengkel and insurance company
insurance company lost = 450k - 145k divided profit = 305k loss?? so where is the profit again? sorry i dont see it. my understanding abit poor need someone to shed light on this sweat.gif
Dreadnought
post Apr 30 2013, 05:50 PM

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QUOTE(imperialrealcs @ Apr 30 2013, 04:58 PM)
nevertheless, i never thought insurance company are that stupid?
pay your friend rm500k to settle
spend lets say 10k to refurbish it
sell rm350k as refurbish car?

sorry my math is bad but where is the "profit" that i dont see for the insurance company?

okay, u said they accomplice to fraud.
insurance company paid rm500k to settle
sold to "partner" bengkel for 50k
insurance company still lost 450k.

the bengkel spend 10k repairing it
the bengkel resell for 350k
profit 290k divided by 2, bengkel and insurance company
insurance company lost = 450k - 145k divided profit = 305k loss?? so where is the profit again? sorry i dont see it. my understanding abit poor need someone to shed light on this sweat.gif
*
Dude. Read properly. I never said that the insurance company made any profit for it.

1. My friend took a sportscar and test drove it. Means the car still belong to the car company. Car insurance covered by related insurance company.

2. Means: holding company owns both car company and insurance company.

3. Means: insurance company pays car company RM500K.
a. To holding company: it's left hand to right hand transaction, no real money loss after adjustments, etc.
b. To car company: gained full covered amount, so no problem. The car company's involvement in this case ends here.
c. To insurance company: RM500K loss, maybe can recover some from reinsurance treaties, excess of loss policies and finally sell the car wreck to chop-shops/workshops for car parts.

4. End of the day, the insurance company do not profit from anything. It's a fact that the insurance company made a loss, maybe instead of RM500K, maybe just lose RM450K after reinsurance recovery and XOL.

5. Insurance company sell the car wreck to a bengkel for RM50K. Now, the insurance company just loss a total of RM400K. The insurance company's involvement in this case ends here.

6. Bengkel repairs the car for RM100K.

7. Bengkel sells the car for RMXXXK and make a tidy profit from it.

8. Bengkel divides the profit with the players.

From (5) to (8) do you see who are the players involved in the entire process from certifying the car as a wreck, transferring the car grant from owner to insurance company to workshop, approving the car wreck sales to workshop, providing parts to repair the car wreck, repairing the car wreck, marketing the newly repaired car, selling the car?

Is it clear enough for your understanding?

Lastly do you know how does this whole transaction affect the general public like you and me? The total loss amount that the insurance company paid out made up one part of the loss-ratio suffered by the insurance industry thus causing the rise in our auto insurance premium this year onwards.

imperialrealcs
post May 1 2013, 12:30 AM

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QUOTE(Dreadnought @ Apr 30 2013, 05:50 PM)
Dude. Read properly. I never said that the insurance company made any profit for it.

1. My friend took a sportscar and test drove it. Means the car still belong to the car company. Car insurance covered by related insurance company.

2. Means: holding company owns both car company and insurance company.

3. Means: insurance company pays car company RM500K.
a. To holding company: it's left hand to right hand transaction, no real money loss after adjustments, etc.
b. To car company: gained full covered amount, so no problem. The car company's involvement in this case ends here.
c. To insurance company: RM500K loss, maybe can recover some from reinsurance treaties, excess of loss policies and finally sell the car wreck to chop-shops/workshops for car parts.

4. End of the day, the insurance company do not profit from anything. It's a fact that the insurance company made a loss, maybe instead of RM500K, maybe just lose RM450K after reinsurance recovery and XOL.

5. Insurance company sell the car wreck to a bengkel for RM50K. Now, the insurance company just loss a total of RM400K. The insurance company's involvement in this case ends here.

6. Bengkel repairs the car for RM100K.

7. Bengkel sells the car for RMXXXK and make a tidy profit from it.

8. Bengkel divides the profit with the players.

From (5) to (8) do you see who are the players involved in the entire process from certifying the car as a wreck, transferring the car grant from owner to insurance company to workshop, approving the car wreck sales to workshop, providing parts to repair the car wreck, repairing the car wreck, marketing the newly repaired car, selling the car?

Is it clear enough for your understanding?

Lastly do you know how does this whole transaction affect the general public like you and me? The total loss amount that the insurance company paid out made up one part of the loss-ratio suffered by the insurance industry thus causing the rise in our auto insurance premium this year onwards.
*
ok i get your point. but still, as long as i get full disbursement, i dont mind.
but how does TS case relate to this? his car barely worth +-5k and got compensated maybe +-5k. sell to bengkel 1k then the bengkel repair 1k totalling 2k cost and sell back to market 5k? lol
Dreadnought
post May 1 2013, 11:59 AM

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Maybe the JPJ officer wants a piece of the action so wants the insurance company to call him directly and discuss.
BuFung
post May 1 2013, 01:24 PM

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Don't be surprise, a lot... I mean really a lot of car in 2nd hand dealer is total lost car...


silverwave
post May 1 2013, 01:36 PM

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QUOTE(BuFung @ May 1 2013, 01:24 PM)
Don't be surprise, a lot... I mean really a lot of car in 2nd hand dealer is total lost car...
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This is seriously scary, how can someone track it? By bringing a mechanic to inspect a car or are there other ways?

I'm just wondering if the next owner buys a total loss car that has been refurbished. (not sure if second hand dealers will tell them the extend of damage)
BuFung
post May 1 2013, 03:07 PM

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QUOTE(silverwave @ May 1 2013, 01:36 PM)
This is seriously scary, how can someone track it? By bringing a mechanic to inspect a car or are there other ways?

I'm just wondering if the next owner buys a total loss car that has been refurbished. (not sure if second hand dealers will tell them the extend of damage)
*
Those car r the main profit margin for 2nd hand dealer... U think they will tell u all this? Even yes, they will only tell u minor accident...

N some of those car go through 2 even 3 hand, they them self also donno how bad...
jayraptor
post May 1 2013, 05:53 PM

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TS insured with Kurniawan? Good luck. sad.gif

If a car sustained >40% damage, insurance firm will buy the car from you paying market value. The car will be scrapped by right.

Some would try to quietly sell to used car dealers and they will repair it to brand new and sell it as used car. Might even put accident free with low mileage (after tampered with the mileage meter). The unlucky person could fall into this.

Advice to those who buy used cars, remember to knock with your fist or knuckle on each part of the body. Car that got cemented will feel densely packed whereas normal metal should be either bouncy, hollow inside or at least sounds metal for quality car. New cars bumper mostly made of PU, should be plastic feel. Older cars are harder.

This post has been edited by jayraptor: May 1 2013, 05:54 PM
marczeman2
post Apr 19 2014, 03:53 PM

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QUOTE(Brobozoider @ Apr 29 2013, 05:17 PM)
My old Iswara was involved in an accident end of last month - the car had a good 10m plunge into a creek. the car was wreck beyond recognition, but i walked out unhurt. its a God given miracle that i survived.

Insurance company (Kurn*a) sent me a letter 2 days ago, saying that the car is 'beyond economical repair'. The letter also says they are ready to offer me a settlement, and all i need to do is to fill in the right forms. (JPJ K3) and (JPJ TM-AB), and surrender my ownership certificate and car keys.

I duly went to JPJ to get the forms filled up and signed. JPJ TM-AB needs verification from a JPJ officer, and so i walked in to see one. Then the officer asks to see the letter from the insurance company. After reading it, he said 'Saya tidak boleh sign. Minta syarikat insurance untuk telefon saya'.

I asked him why. He said he thinks that the insurance company is not following the right procedure. He also said that the form they asked me to sign is for me to surrender my right of he car, so that they could repair it and sell it off as a second handed reconditioned car. I couldnt understand his concerns, but i followed his suggestion anyway. I called the company, and my insurance company will contact him tomorrow.

My question to all of you bros and sisters here are:

- are his worries valid? I thought in total loss claims, the owner does have to surrender his possession of the car to receive the cash settlement?
- any bros here encountered the same incident? if yes, what did u do?

Any advise and tips form all bros and sisters out there are duly welcomed.

Cheers.
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Hey bro, my situation is similar to yours (also old car, kurn*a insured, total loss) now I've basically only got this one borang to get signed (JPJ Tm-AB).. i didn't know I could face any problems there..

Anyway, can you tell me what happened next? How long did it take to get it signed, and more importantly, how long did it take for Kurn*a to pay you your money?
areankim
post Dec 22 2014, 05:17 PM

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my brother car the whole front engine is hancussss... impact from the side, but body ok...

will this be consider more than >40%? the engine definitely need a new set.
Karenalvin
post Dec 23 2014, 10:53 AM

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QUOTE(imperialrealcs @ Apr 30 2013, 04:58 PM)
nevertheless, i never thought insurance company are that stupid?
pay your friend rm500k to settle
spend lets say 10k to refurbish it
sell rm350k as refurbish car?

sorry my math is bad but where is the "profit" that i dont see for the insurance company?

okay, u said they accomplice to fraud.
insurance company paid rm500k to settle
sold to "partner" bengkel for 50k
insurance company still lost 450k.

the bengkel spend 10k repairing it
the bengkel resell for 350k
profit 290k divided by 2, bengkel and insurance company
insurance company lost = 450k - 145k divided profit = 305k loss?? so where is the profit again? sorry i dont see it. my understanding abit poor need someone to shed light on this sweat.gif
*
first time seeing this old topic. interesting...

anyway, I dun claim to know how the whole thing works at all, but there can indeed be a way to profit from this.

remember that the RM 500k pay out is included as loss for the insurance company and will be absorbed into its account as such. This could be a means to offset a very large profit for the year (for tax evasion or other accounting magic perhaps?). The car is sold to the "partner" company and this would in turn earn the profit for this partner company. the RM 500k is written off as operating loss for the insurance co that might be looking for ways to reduce its profit for the year, whereas the RM 290k is written in as profit for the "partner" company.

Taking this further into the Malaysian context. the few person in the insurance company responsible for the assessment have a stake in the "partner" company? So whatever money the insurance company lost is reflected as a loss to the shareholders of a floated international insurance firm. Whatever profit the "partner" company earned is reflected as dividends for the shareholder of this sdn bhd.

this could be expanded to include the sportscar company being in on the game as well. it could mean one car "sold" which would pad its profit. so if the car company is in on this, then remember that the same car is "sold" twice for a total of RM 850k while the insurance company + "partner" has only to pay out RM 510k.

end of the day, there are money to be made from all this monkey business. remember, while there are cases in which one company might indeed be losing money, but it might not be such a bad thing to other parties with different vested interests. that is why we have people who will steal from the company they work for.

disclaimer: i do not know if the above scenario happens, but just like to point out that the math can work if we just think about it from a different angle
SUSMatrix
post Dec 23 2014, 12:40 PM

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QUOTE(Quazacolt @ Apr 29 2013, 08:20 PM)
what can rm4-5k get me? used saga/iswara/wira may not guarantee me that the car is accident free.

but since you did specifically mentioned SAME CAR:
- what rigidity does our aged old saga/iswara have? the metal chassis are corroded and again, getting unknown used car DOES NOT guarantee that it is accident free. chassis that are pulled/heated are hard to detect after they get painted over and there are NO WAY used car dealers will allow you strip the paint
for my car, i got my entire front chassis rebuilt with brand new materials that i can be assured of its rigidity

- safety? saga/iswara/wira has no ABS, no air bag, no crumple zone, what is this safety you're talking about?
and what hassle? you think used cars that i have no idea of won't have any issues? for my car, i know PERFECTLY well what is the engine condition, what damage occurred to my car. whatever hassle there may be i have a perfect and objective idea on how to tackle them.

- i used original materials/parts to repair my car. tell me how would my car become a potential road hazard while other saga iswara won't?
do take note that used iswara on the market cost about 4-8k, i spent 7-8k on my car, if you know your car stuff you'll know that it isn't a simple "half-assed repair job"

overall: you're just being too optimistic on used car market smile.gif
*
Buy a Sawi. 5k - 6k can get. The metal is thicker than a Waja. brows.gif
SUSMatrix
post Dec 23 2014, 12:45 PM

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QUOTE(Dreadnought @ May 1 2013, 11:59 AM)
Maybe the JPJ officer wants a piece of the action so wants the insurance company to call him directly and discuss.
*
I suspect this too....i scratch your back, you scratch mine. biggrin.gif
SUSadvocado
post Feb 25 2018, 07:16 PM

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QUOTE(Dreadnought @ Apr 30 2013, 05:50 PM)
Dude. Read properly. I never said that the insurance company made any profit for it.

1. My friend took a sportscar and test drove it. Means the car still belong to the car company. Car insurance covered by related insurance company.

2. Means: holding company owns both car company and insurance company.

3. Means: insurance company pays car company RM500K.
a. To holding company: it's left hand to right hand transaction, no real money loss after adjustments, etc.
b. To car company: gained full covered amount, so no problem. The car company's involvement in this case ends here.
c. To insurance company: RM500K loss, maybe can recover some from reinsurance treaties, excess of loss policies and finally sell the car wreck to chop-shops/workshops for car parts.

4. End of the day, the insurance company do not profit from anything. It's a fact that the insurance company made a loss, maybe instead of RM500K, maybe just lose RM450K after reinsurance recovery and XOL.

5. Insurance company sell the car wreck to a bengkel for RM50K. Now, the insurance company just loss a total of RM400K. The insurance company's involvement in this case ends here.

6. Bengkel repairs the car for RM100K.

7. Bengkel sells the car for RMXXXK and make a tidy profit from it.

8. Bengkel divides the profit with the players.

From (5) to (8) do you see who are the players involved in the entire process from certifying the car as a wreck, transferring the car grant from owner to insurance company to workshop, approving the car wreck sales to workshop, providing parts to repair the car wreck, repairing the car wreck, marketing the newly repaired car, selling the car?

Is it clear enough for your understanding?

Lastly do you know how does this whole transaction affect the general public like you and me? The total loss amount that the insurance company paid out made up one part of the loss-ratio suffered by the insurance industry thus causing the rise in our auto insurance premium this year onwards.
*
in this case, if bengkel can repair the car for rm100k, even if you take in 50% profit margin for insurance company to fix the car cost rm150k. rm150k is still lower than the lost the insurance company has incurred from the total lost and have to go tru so many hassle. doesn't make sense.

in this case bengkel maybe give rm100k from sales of repaired car to insurance company, insurance company still lose rm300k. might as well the insurance company repair the car themselves and sell the car back at market price. still, it would cost them more than just fixing up the car and give back to owner?

the only way someone profits here is the employees of insurance company, by lying to company a car has been total loss & scrapped but did not proceed with scrapping it. however on auditing, insurance company would find out the car has yet been scrapped on paper and will do investigation. and since the car ownership needs to be transferred from insurance to bengkel, the trace is there and whoever approved the transfer will be questioned.
SUSadvocado
post Feb 25 2018, 07:20 PM

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QUOTE(Karenalvin @ Dec 23 2014, 10:53 AM)
first time seeing this old topic. interesting...

anyway, I dun claim to know how the whole thing works at all, but there can indeed be a way to profit from this.

remember that the RM 500k pay out is included as loss for the insurance company and will be absorbed into its account as such. This could be a means to offset a very large profit for the year (for tax evasion or other accounting magic perhaps?). The car is sold to the "partner" company and this would in turn earn the profit for this partner company. the RM 500k is written off as operating loss for the insurance co that might be looking for ways to reduce its profit for the year, whereas the RM 290k is written in as profit for the "partner" company.

Taking this further into the Malaysian context. the few person in the insurance company responsible for the assessment have a stake in the "partner" company? So whatever money the insurance company lost is reflected as a loss to the shareholders of a floated international insurance firm. Whatever profit the "partner" company earned is reflected as dividends for the shareholder of this sdn bhd.

this could be expanded to include the sportscar company being in on the game as well. it could mean one car "sold" which would pad its profit. so if the car company is in on this, then remember that the same car is "sold" twice for a total of RM 850k while the insurance company + "partner" has only to pay out RM 510k.

end of the day, there are money to be made from all this monkey business. remember, while there are cases in which one company might indeed be losing money, but it might not be such a bad thing to other parties with different vested interests. that is why we have people who will steal from the company they work for.

disclaimer: i do not know if the above scenario happens, but just like to point out that the math can work if we just think about it from a different angle
*
i see only employees benefit not the company. because the lost incurred won't justify the tax deduction and way too much hassle to go tru the process.

it's like doing charity for tax cuts, you spend rm100k on charity, and that rm100k gets deducted from your annual net profit, so you get tax rebate of 29%, which is rm29k, you still lose rm71k to charity. unless you own the charity and the money used back for benefit of the company.

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