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 Prospective Law Students Gateway V2, A basic guide to become a lawyer

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believe92
post Jun 26 2013, 12:30 PM

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QUOTE(chiahau @ May 11 2013, 12:19 AM)
Why not?

My frens has a Law degree, took a 2 year hiatus and work for HSBC before leaving to London to pursue BPTC.

Thou I am not really sure how much of his works are related to laws, but generally, you could, work.
Being a paralegal, yes.

Going to court, nope.
Legal Clerk gets paid around 1,5k ~ 2,5k depending on how thick your cables are....

Best to say, if you only have LLB and no CLP, try to obtain a sponsor for you to finish CLP
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May I know the possible ways of obtaining sponsorship for your CLP? Thanks smile.gif
believe92
post Mar 7 2015, 04:40 AM

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QUOTE(sreeking @ Dec 15 2014, 02:04 PM)
I second this. It's true. Even with basic pay for a 'chambie' in KL (top tier firms) is about RM1800++, but the living costs involved is also equally high.
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Can confirm that the above info is outdated. Top firms in KL now pay at around RM3000 (even 3500 upon confirmation of retention).

By top firms I do mean the biggest firms though (think Shearn, Zico). Some mid-sized elite firms do pay as well or even better than top firms (think Wong or Rahmat Lim).
believe92
post Mar 7 2015, 04:48 AM

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QUOTE(qazhang @ Jan 19 2015, 02:21 PM)
Nowadays, Singapore's Law Society does not recognise any external law programmes including UoL's llb law degree.
Exception to this general rule is:
#1 you must undergo bar professional training course (BPTC) in order to be admitted to one of the inns of courts. After that you're allowed to be admitted to the Singapore' Bar.

#2 Practice for several years, and then join the Singapore's law society as a qualified practitioner with certain number of years standing.

With regards to the UoL programmes, graduate entry programme comes with 8 modules. In order to practice law, your law degree must consist of 12 law modules. No age limit would bar her admittance to the rolls of the advocate.

If she is looking forward to practice law in Malaysia:

Recommended: UoL's LLB (Hons) [3 years] + CLP [7 months] + Chambering [9 months]

Other alternatives to practice anywhere in the world (commonwealth countries)

UoL's LLB (Hons) [3 years] + BPTC + Pupilage (depending on a particular country's admittance to the bar requisites.)

I have included detailed infos. Click on it for better understanding.
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Hate to sound like a know-it-all, but I think the BPTC is no longer recognised as a Professional qualification in most commonwealth countries? Malaysia and one or two other commonwealth countries seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Most of the non-British doing the BPTC are Malaysians.

E.g. In Canada,HK, Aus, NZ, the BPTC doesn't help at all (prelim understanding, please correct me if I am wrong). In Singapore it exempts you from only Part A of the Bar Exam.
believe92
post Jun 30 2015, 12:52 AM

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QUOTE(Blessedchild94 @ Jun 24 2015, 06:22 PM)
Hi everyone, I am currently a law student who is studying the UK Degree Transfer Programme and am planning to do the BPTC in the UK after the completion of my degree. I wish to work in Hong Kong after completing the pupillage programme in Msia or later, which is after working as a lawyer for a few years in Msia. Is it possible for me to practise as a lawyer in Hong Kong? Is there any examination which I would need to take in order for me practise there? And would it be a problem for me to work there as I do not know how to read and write Chinese but I can understand and speak Mandarin&Cantonese.

Thanks for helping out peeps!  biggrin.gif
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I am currently looking to practise as a lawyer in Hong Kong too! Do note that HK has a split profession like the UK, and I assume you want to practise as a solicitor rather than a barrister. Why not consider applying for a training contract in HK before doing your Bar?
These are pathways that you can take.

1. complete your LLB => Do internships, secure a Training Contract (before or after completing your LLB, never mind if you don't manage to get a TC) => Do the PCLL (Bar exam of HK) => Trainee at a law firm for two years => Qualify in HK

2. complete LLB => BPTC/CLP => pupillage => qualify in Msia => work in HK as registered foreign lawyer OR complete the Overseas qualifying examination.

The job market in HK is VERY different from Malaysia, and different types of firms have varying requirements. Currently, it is quite advantageous, but not mandatory to be able to speak / read/ write mandarin as a Biglaw (international law firms) lawyer in Hong Kong. Cantonese is mostly mandatory to work in local HK law firms.
believe92
post Jun 30 2015, 12:58 AM

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QUOTE(TzeThon @ Jun 17 2015, 03:58 PM)
hi. am a lady smile.gif
am in singapore now. in house. no longer practising.
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Hi there! Do you know if Sg companies accept fresh grads onto their in house teams? Asking for a friend biggrin.gif
believe92
post Nov 23 2015, 07:46 PM

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QUOTE(zone3310 @ Aug 19 2015, 05:25 AM)
Hi, thanks for your advice but we do know that RM 100k is not a small amount since currency inflation and i'm don't see the perk of having both since one of it would be suffice to practice in Malaysia. As for me taking BPTC is like a gamble, you either have the opportunity to work other than Malaysia and earn more (currency magic) or you come back and practice and that's why it's like an investment, there may be returning profit or there may not.  Anyway, do you have any information regarding which college is best for CLP? I'm currently considering ATC (KL or Penang) or BAC since both are quite competitive in their own aspects. Any views will be appreciated. Thank You  smile.gif
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I agree fully that having both BPTC and CLP qualifications is a terrible idea, wasting a year of your life and so much money.

Please be warned and do not expect the BPTC to open up opportunities in the UK for you. Most of the local UK law students barely dare to dream of becoming a barrister, for a good reason too. Only a handful of pupillage places are on offer each year, and it is rare for a foreigner to obtain pupillage. They expect you to commit your life to being a barrister, and unless you can show that, along with stellar academics and experience (5-6 mini pupillages, 1st class from top 5 unis),it is unlikely you get a pupillage. If you weren't even able to secure a BPTC place, honestly, and this is the harsh truth, it is unlikely you will ever get a place in a legal market as competitive as the UK's.

Outside the UK, several countries do recognise the BPTC (Sri Lanka, some Caribbean countries), but unelss you have the language skills and background, I do not see why you would want to practise in these countries. And that is even assuming they allow foreigners to be called to their bar.

If you are considering other professions (non-law) overseas, I do not see any reason a BPTC qualification will help you. It is too vocation specific. An undergraduate degree or masters would be much more helpful in that respect.

So in summary, do the BPTC only if you want to practise law in Malaysia. Don't expect that it will open opportunities overseas. That's a lot of money to gamble!

This post has been edited by believe92: Nov 23 2015, 07:49 PM
believe92
post Jan 24 2016, 10:35 PM

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Which law firm mentors well for chambering students who are interested in arbitration?
believe92
post Jan 26 2016, 06:28 AM

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QUOTE(qazhang @ Jan 25 2016, 12:34 AM)
Guide to surviving in law firms.

Rule #1: There is not such thing as spoonfeeding.

Now, if you can elaborate more on your degree, locality, class of honours, etc. can provide some guidance to narrow down possible choices.

Unless
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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Hmm I was in the process of research while posting, definitely do not consider this asking to be spoonfed. Anyways for arbitration, here goes (would love hear your opinion of these lawyers/firms) -

Cecil Abraham, top-ranked arbitrator in Asia Pacific by Chambers & Partners. Opened his own firm recently, not sure how much arbitration work they are doing though (as opposed to courtroom litigation).

Vinayak P Pradhan, Skrine. Another top-ranked arbitrator, however I am not sure how good Skrine is at arbitration overall.

Thomas Phillip - Top litigation firm, I know they do some arbitration but I do not know how good they are at that. May I suppose being a top litigation firm usually translates to having a good arbitration practice?



As for my degree, I studied in UK (mid tier Russell Group Uni), managed to scrape first class honours. Did the usual extra-curriculars like mooting, legal clinic, 3 internships etc. Did not get a 'prestigious' BPTC, I did the CLP to save cost instead.

(Hmm with a Cantab law degree you will be working in one of the big international firms overseas LOL, doubt you would want to waste your money on BPTC and come back. But assuming you have Cantab/Inner temple qualifications, and you die die must work in Malaysia, which are these exclusive firms that you seem to imply are better than Zico?)

This post has been edited by believe92: Jan 26 2016, 06:31 AM
believe92
post Jan 28 2016, 05:49 PM

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QUOTE(qazhang @ Jan 26 2016, 05:28 PM)
Tan Sri Cecil Abraham is a very busy man. If you are looking forward to a mentor-mentee learning style, it is going to be very difficult.
High profiled lawyer and his clientele consists of high profile businessman, corporation and etc. He regularly represents them in ADR. I'm not sure of his status in court litigation. His son is also a lawyer.

Vinayak. I personally have no knowledge therefore I shall refrain from providing my input on this. However, Skrine is one of the three Ss namely (Shearn Delamore, Skrine and Shok Lin Bok. Impressive clientele ranging from GLC to private business titans. Competitive remuneration and attractive salary package. The problem with big firms is that the partner will have 3 senior LAs, 5 junior LAs, paralegals working for him, you should be expecting to spend more time with his staff than with him. You have to climb the hierarchy over the years, to work directly for him. Advantages: Instead of being placed under one specifc department, you can request to be put in rotation within other departments such as, litigation, conveyance, corporate and etc. You will have a wholistic view and practice of how things move around in the firm. You will have to wait for a long time until they know that you exist in the firm.  laugh.gif  laugh.gif

Thomas Philip - Student friendly. He annually hosts ALSA internships for law students. Received good reviews. Medium tier firm. Its possible for you to learn directly from Mr. Philip.

Other lawyers that you can consider,

GK Ganesan. Student friendly. He was one of the judges for LAWASIA Moot Competition (I my my memory serves me correctly, the moot problem was about arbitration). Knowledgeable man.

Robert Lazar.

Firm: Chooi & Co. Very competitive. If you are looking forward to learn from as many people as you can, this is the firm. Their partners are actively involved in Bar Council and Malaysian Bar. Current Managing Partner is the former Bar president.

Ram Rais & Partners. Small firm. Syah can really be a good mentor.
Actually, I cannot decide for you. At the end of the day, it all boils down to your personal preference and expectations.
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This is great! Thanks!

What do you think of Lee Hishamuddin? (and why does their name include Allen & Gledhill, they aren't affiliated anymore lol)
believe92
post Feb 2 2016, 09:33 PM

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QUOTE(red123 @ Feb 1 2016, 06:43 PM)
Cheah Teh Su, Gananathan Low, Raja Daryll Loh.
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Will look into them. Thanks!
believe92
post May 1 2016, 06:38 PM

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QUOTE(naufalabud @ May 1 2016, 01:25 AM)
HYE GUYS, im 18years old and interested to be a lawyer..Still waiting for upu. Just want to ask you guys, what do you guys think about law prospect in future? Is it dark or bright? LOL
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I assume prospects = $$$ and job security/prestige.

Well if you are talking about short-term prospects, law is terrible. Two factors are relevant to short-term prospects - regulatory hurdle and salary.

1.regulatory hurdle => besides getting an undergraudate LLB that is recognised, unlike other graduates, you will have to pay to take the expensive BPTC or the cheaper CLP. BPTC has a higher pass rate while the CLP's passing rate is legendary (low). If you go to local unis' recognised LLB programmes, you can circumvent the BPTC/CLP hurdle. Next up is the vocational hurdle, where, despite finishing a year later than others, you are required to undertake 9 months of chambering before u qualify. If you are a good student and manage to snag a good firm, pay will be reasonably (not good, reasonable). If you are in smaller firms, the pay is laughable. You assume some financial risks without even having qualified as a lawyer yet


2. salary=> You thought qualifying as a lawyer means life gets easier? Wrong. The peanuts pay continues. First year associates in smaller firms are comparable/lower to standard graduate pay (2000-3000 in KL), and only reasonable in large and more established firms (4000-5000). Not gonna buy a house anytime soon, which is especially painful if you are from outside KL.


Long-term prospects are awesome, if you are awesome too. Making partner in large firms allows you to earn from 200k-millions depending on seniority. Not to mention the potential business/political opportunities you get from rubbing shoulders with the nation's wealthy elite. If you start your own firm, sky is the limit. Even if you aren't the ambitious type, opening a small coffeeshop firm allows you to lead to a relatively comfy life.

This post has been edited by believe92: May 1 2016, 06:42 PM
believe92
post May 2 2016, 07:01 PM

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QUOTE(naufalabud @ May 2 2016, 04:28 AM)
Thanks for the information really useful.. Im not bcoming lawyer bcoz of salary. My father wants me to be a engineer with high income and job secure but its not a job that make me sastified.. I want to do something with our social community.. And besides, I want to join politics also thats why I think law degree might be useful ..The only bother me is about the job security, I dont want to be unemployed and lying at my bed without doing nothing:ranting: . If I can ask you more question, what quality does a law graduate needed to be employed?
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I admire that aim.

If you want to contribute to society, no doubt every profession/job plays it's part in advancing our society. But if you are interested in a potential political career, or a job that has a direct impact on our society, a law degree may not be a prerequisite but it is definitely very helpful.

And if you are a hardworking and reasonably intelligent person, you will not be unemployed as a lawyer and you will never need to worry about job security, trust me thumbup.gif Try googling news articles about recent malaysian law graduates. Many firms are complaining that recent batches of malaysian law grads lacking (1) a good command of English (2) basic skills law graduates are expected to have (critical reasoning, attention to detail, commercial acumen). You will also notice complaints from law firms that are commonly directed to non-law grads as well - lack of loyalty, unwilling to work hard, i.e. Gen Y problems.

Therefore, qualities sought after by law firms in graduates
(1) Good academic results. If you get a first class degree from a respectable uni, you can walk into almost any firm and get a job. Malaysian firms still place alot of emphasis on good grades.
(2) Good bilingual (English, Malay) language skills, with English being critically more important than Malay.
(3) Intelligent, fast learner with critical thinking skills. (As a fresh lawyer you will not use 90% of what is taught in law school, and will rely on yourself to research, understand, and apply the law)
(4) Potential to be client savvy. (Good social/interactive skills, receptive to the needs and concerns of people)
(5) Loyalty??? Some firms place a high value on this, but I am doubtful. Loyalty is a two way street - the firm must show equal respect and commitment to you to earn your loyalty.

For a political career, networking is key. Being a talented lawyer allows you access to people who hold wealth and power in the country, and with the right connections and network, you can launch your political career ahead of many others.

This post has been edited by believe92: May 2 2016, 07:05 PM
believe92
post May 4 2016, 05:10 PM

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QUOTE(naufalabud @ May 4 2016, 01:31 PM)
Different people have different perspectives  icon_idea.gif . Im not into innovation . I want to fight for justice such as fight for people`s right and develop our country something like that that most people might think its silly
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Let's just say that every single one of my law school mates who started out with aspirations such as yours ended up either (1) working in big/mid-sized firms (2)working back in their hometown (3) Trying their best to leave the country, which is hard as a lawyer. (4) Left law for other fields. For those of my mates who ar practising, I am sure they will do some pro bono/human rights on the side - but that is it - as a side project rather than full time.

Just an experience of my own that I want to share thumbup.gif

But it is good to have a dream, making it a reality takes careful planning nad hard work - asking this question here before you start your law degree is a good start.

That said, I agree with chiahau that justice isn't ONLY served by lawyers/politicians (in fact a huge number of them obstruct justice), anyone can pitch in to help out. Also, the values of justice aren't absolute, and they are always subject to debate.

This post has been edited by believe92: May 4 2016, 05:16 PM
believe92
post May 4 2016, 10:40 PM

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QUOTE(naufalabud @ May 4 2016, 06:28 PM)
I dont know how to describe it bcoz my English is not very good confused.gif . Well, how about you are in my position, you want to be a politician but some people say you need a qualification, the problem is most of the politicians even in other countries dont have science politics which I think the most related to politics..And also Im not into our current government and if u join pakatan rakyat now u might not survive solely without doing another job as a side income..This is from some politicians that I have been told.Might be wrong notworthy.gif  My plan is if I have law qualification, I can have a law firm like late Karpal Singh? icon_rolleyes.gif  Anyway thanks for you opinion really appreciate it.
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Being a lawyer is useful for a political career because there are certain overlaps. Public speaking skills are needed for both litigators and politicans. Politicans benefit greatly from connections with the wealthy and influential - lawyers tend to have a higher chance to make such connections in the course of their job (an engineer, conversely, is unlikely to come across such people)

Karpal Singh is just one example, and there are plenty of politicans who entered politics without legal qualifications or credentials. They will have credentials in other fields, see Tony Pua's previous career as an consultant/entreprenuer/CEO.

Bottom line is, work hard, work smart, proving you are better and more successful than other people is more important for your political ambitions than being a lawyer. There are plenty of terrible idiotic lawyers and law students around, I have seen my fair share.
believe92
post Sep 11 2016, 02:39 PM

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QUOTE(jitd @ Aug 25 2016, 08:10 PM)
Guys any idea where i can get a cost break down for studying the BPTC? Incl fees, cost of living , rent
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http://www.chambersstudent.com/law-schools...viders-compared

Providers compared, living cost differs by region - so do your own homework!
believe92
post Oct 9 2016, 03:03 PM

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[quote=wong6516,Sep 20 2016, 07:59 PM]
no matter which subject you took in your UOL, it simply doesn't matter except eu law. eu law not only allow you to do bptc but also exposed
[quote=wong6516,Sep 20 2016, 07:59 PM]
no matter which subject you took in your UOL, it simply doesn't matter except eu law. eu law not only allow you to do bptc but also exposed you to other codified legal system in most eu countries plus it helps you understand how those international treaty works. And it didn't deny your access to clp either.And their lengthy case law tend to helps on memorizing, especially when clp you need to remember full name of case instead of quoting "there was a settled decision" kind of bs. so it is always beneficial to do EU. the downside is if you intend to practice in malaysia, EU law is pretty useless.

commercial law in uol? doesn't matter but simple expose maybe. agency,sogasa,international trading in malaysia is under different statute.
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[/quote]

This description of EU law makes me cringe on so many levels - lls dont give advice if u havent studied EU law or have been lazy to study it.

Studying EU law does not expose u to codified civil law systems - EU law is separate from national laws and in the UK context u wont be learning much about french of german civil law.

It doeant teach you how international treaties work - eu law has developed so far to resemble its original enabling treaties, and it is not directly comparable to other international treaties.

Any student who has studied eu law would know ecj decisions are alot shorter than english cases.

While I agree with the poster that studying eu law is beneficial, his supporting statements are so heavily flawed and outright incorrect at times. I feel a need to correct this lest younger students get misguided.
believe92
post Apr 10 2018, 10:00 PM

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QUOTE(roy595 @ Mar 16 2018, 03:30 AM)
To keep things short, is Law still a good career choice today? How is the job market and the general landscape around here these days?
Any thoughts?
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Depends on whether it means 'good' relative to other career choices?
Law is a matured and arguably sunlight profession, growth is slowing and the Malaysian market is slow and undynamic. If you are looking for growth areas and high rising potential, probably look into computer related industries or private equity etc.
Law offers good 'prestige', but you can't use it to buy a house or even dinner. Do not expect a lawyers pay to be relatively higher than other professions at a fresh grad/junior level. Starting pay can range from 1500 to 3500. Even at the top end, you get similar pay as Big 4 accountants and less than IB or management consultancy. Pay only sky rockets when you are much much much more senior. Go into law in Malaysia if you are in it for the long game.
Probably can consider practicing as a lawyer overseas (SG, US, UK, HK etc), the pay and prestige is relatively higher compared to other professions in those respective countries . Lawyers are usually within the top 3 list well paid professions at those jurisdictions. Not Malaysia.





 

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