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 Prospective Law Students Gateway V2, A basic guide to become a lawyer

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Eazy
post Jun 13 2014, 11:43 AM

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From: Kuala Lumpur


Hi, I have just finished A-Levels, and unfortunately, I've learned that I have been studying the wrong subjects for me. I have finished a pure science a-levels, and unfortunately I am sure I have not done very well in it due to my lack of interest and motivation.
And so after i finished it, I am sure I do not want to studying anything math related, as while I'm not bad at math, I do not enjoy it. I am particularly weak at chemistry, and have trouble memorizing formulas in physics. The only subject I'm remotely good at was biology, since I am an avid reader and to me, reading is second nature.

And so after finishing a levels, I was lost and I have no idea what to study. I entered A-levels thinking of become a doctor or dentist, but my extreme dislike of chemistry somehow turned me away from medical subjects.

And so one of my relatives who is a lawyer recommended me to study law. She told me that since I am good at English (getting A~A+ consistently during secondary), and that I am an avid reader, I might do well in Law. And at first I am unsure, as being a lawyer or something similar had not occurred to me in the past, but after around an hour or two of explaining, she pretty much perked my interest.

So, can I apply to any law schools using my SPM and science-stream based A-levels?
Do I have to retake a foundation in Law to enter a a law degree?
And which law school is currently at the top in Malaysia? And I've heard the certs of Taylor's law students being unrecognized in Malaysia.
As well as my chances of getting into a law university overseas, how difficult is it to get into a university, one as prestigious as the University of Auckland in law? I have relatives living in Auckland, so that may well be the top university of my choice.
Or am I better off entering a twinning programme in a local university?

Thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by Eazy: Jun 13 2014, 11:45 AM
Eazy
post Jun 13 2014, 03:59 PM

Getting Started
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Junior Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
From: Kuala Lumpur


Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate it.

But I forgot to ask the most important question of all. Lets say I went ahead and did the twinning programme in BAC to a UK university, assuming I can get into one, what are my chances of getting into a law firm anywhere, be it in the UK or back here in Malaysia?
My cousin graduated from UKM , and had no problems finding a law firm to intern in, what are my chances of getting an internship if I graduate from a private university?
Eazy
post Jul 4 2014, 01:56 PM

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Joined: Jan 2012
From: Kuala Lumpur


Okay, I so I have applied to Backfields Asia College Twinning Program, and I will be putting in as much effort a I can into getting a First Class.

But I have to enquire, what are my choices after getting my LLB?
I am aware that it is notoriously hard to get into the UK Bar Professional Training Course. But this is my target as of now. I'm planning to practice overseas, and the UK Bar seems like the obvious choice.
And after reading multiple articles online, it was said that in general, CLP graduates are sub-par due to the 100% examination based system, despite the extremely low passing rate, causing the graduates to be lacking in practical experience.
And for some reason, people are grouping CLP graduates with local universities graduates, those who do were not required to sit for CLP.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but it is a widely accepted fact that local university law graduates exempted from CLP are inferior compared to law graduates from the private universities.

So my questions are:
If I'm doing the UK Bar, by the off-chance that I'm able to get into it in the first place, and actually pass it, am I able to return to Malaysia to practice law, with additional training or otherwise?

If I do well in the Bar exams, do I, as a foreign student, stand a chance to be accepted into pupilage in the UK?

Am I able to use my UK Bar qualifications to get a better chance at applying for a permit to practice law in other countries like Australia, New Zealand, or the UK itself? I’m considering getting a PR at one of these countries, while still retaining my Malaysian citizenship.

If I’m not qualified to enter the Bar Professional Training Course and went to CLP instead, what are my chances of practicing law in other countries in the near future? I must point out that I am not keen on migrating to another country in my forties, bringing my whole family, parents, wife and kids.

Thanks in advance.

Eazy
post Jul 4 2014, 05:16 PM

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From: Kuala Lumpur


QUOTE(BravoZeroTwo @ Jul 4 2014, 03:50 PM)
Eazy,
Why did you say that it is notoriously difficult to do the English Bar ? I mean if you meet the pre-requisite requirement. Thanks.
*
Okay, maybe i'm exaggerating when using the world 'notorious'. 'Quite' might be a better choice of words.

And I'm thinking it's because of the fixed quota? And the minimum requirement is 2:2
I'm thinking it will be hard to enter the Bar if I'm getting below a 2:1.

Quoting Wikipedia:

In 2008/09
2,540 students applied for the BVC,
1,749 received a place,

1,330 passed the BVC,
562 received pupillage,
497 gained tenancy.

And that was around five years ago. Who knows what the numbers are like now.
Eazy
post Jul 4 2014, 08:31 PM

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From: Kuala Lumpur


QUOTE(BravoZeroTwo @ Jul 4 2014, 06:27 PM)
Thanks for sharing here, Eazy. Which university did you graduate from ? If I may ask here, what's the cost like in total in UK ? What's the procedure of applying for the Bar course ? Thanks.
*
Unfortunately, I can't help much regarding that subject. sweat.gif
I have just applied for Law School at BAC, July intake.

I'm asking about the bar because I want a clear plan and a goal in mind to motivate me to study hard in Law school.
But according to a lecturer at BAC, the Bar Professional Training Course in the UK is around RM180k.

But here's a snip from The Offical UK Bar Website.

How much are the fees for the BPTC?

Applying for the BPTC through BPTC Online costs £40, which is non-refundable.
2014/15 fees vary between £12,000 and £18,000 for the year. The BPTC Institutions require a non-refundable deposit upon acceptance of a BPTC place, which will be deducted from your course fees upon enrolment.

May I make an application if I am an overseas student?
Yes. Applications are judged on merit.

A place on the BPTC does not mean that overseas students may practise in England and Wales. The BPTC confers the qualification of Barrister but without rights of audience. Students without rights of employment and residency in the UK may not practise in the UK. Please note that some institutions do have different fees for home and overseas students, so check the prospectus of the institution where you wish to study.

We also suggest that overseas students wishing to apply for a place on the BPTC should check with the jurisdiction where they wish to practise that the BPTC is recognised in that jurisdiction.
Eazy
post Jul 14 2014, 11:11 AM

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From: Kuala Lumpur


QUOTE(Shanashi @ Jul 6 2014, 10:38 AM)
I have done the BPTC

Fees is depending on which institution u choose to do the BPTC. It ranges from 17k to 11k. This is just the fees not including living expenses and accommodation and the application fees/Inn registration stamp duty etc

If I'm doing the UK Bar, by the off-chance that I'm able to get into it in the first place, and actually pass it, am I able to return to Malaysia to practice law, with additional training or otherwise?
You need to do chambering for 9 months to get called to the Malaysian Bar

If I do well in the Bar exams, do I, as a foreign student, stand a chance to be accepted into pupilage in the UK?
Dont mean to discourage you but even if you achieve Very Competent which is an A equivalent they will not take you in because spaces are limited and the locals are still fighting for places. However it is not impossible but do not get your hopes high.

Am I able to use my UK Bar qualifications to get a better chance at applying for a permit to practice law in other countries like Australia, New Zealand, or the UK itself? I’m considering getting a PR at one of these countries, while still retaining my Malaysian citizenship.
You cannot practice without having done the pupilage in UK. Having said to practice in Aus you would need to have completed the pupilage in UK to practice in Aus. Yes its possible as the UK bar is recognized in Aus.

If I’m not qualified to enter the Bar Professional Training Course and went to CLP instead, what are my chances of practicing law in other countries in the near future? I must point out that I am not keen on migrating to another country in my forties, bringing my whole family, parents, wife and kids.
You cannot practice unless you sit for their BAR exams AFTER you have been called to the Malaysian Bar as it is recognized in Australia. This is however withstanding the fact that they accept your application and there is a job there for you and most importantly you pass the CLP.
I would strongly recommend you to do well in your 1st 2nd and final year in the UK. Having said if you get a First your fees will be exempted by 2k the most depending on institutions. This is a big relief to your sponsor after converting. If you are the type who cant cook to save your life ( I have seen many pathetic cases here ) I suggest you better start learning how to cook. That is of course your sponsors are rich then you have nothing to worry. English food is bland and tasteless. You can forget about the "chinese" cooking here as it is catered for the locals taste. Indian food is northern indian not the southern types which you are used to. Malay food you might as well forget it as the ingredients are scarce to come by so you might as well bring your own ingredients.

These are my own personal experience which may vary from others depending on the year they did it and where they did it. The BPTC is a very difficult course which people have dropped out due to the intense stressed placed upon them during the course. If you think your final year of degree is difficult I have bad news for you. This is another level. I am not trying to discourage you but it is alot of money and if you cannot handle stress I suggest you to stay away because the lecturers will treat you like working adults as it is a professional course. There is no room for mistake and its a 90% attendence or you fail the course. The white people are very direct unlike the malaysians who are shy to voice out their opinions. You mess up they will tell you to your face infront of all the other local classmates so you have to be on top of your game as the people there are usually very sharp be it locals or foreigners like yourself. You will have no weekends to yourself as you will be preparing for the following week. For example I used to cook a variety of dishes for my degree but when I was doing the BPTC I even had to freeze my rice and pre cut all my onions garlic and ginger just to save time cooking. You get the drift. All the best.
*
Thanks for the insightful reply! =) Wow, I guess I have no time to fool around at all. Okay, I'm going to try as hard as I can for getting good grades.
Hopefully I'll be able to cope, because frankly I can't be absolutely sure that I'll be able to make it.
Thanks for the advice! =)
Eazy
post Aug 4 2014, 03:03 PM

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From: Kuala Lumpur


QUOTE(cyh03176 @ Jul 21 2014, 08:09 PM)
lol don't be frightened by shanashi's words or the figures. i just passed the bptc and it is not as hard as he said. i see you provided the figures for 2008/2009 BVC, but since the commencement of BPTC, the passing rates also drops because of the 3 centralised assessments. tongue.gif

i can see your determination from your words. a first class honours degree is definitely achievable. i will tell you why. i was a game addict and failed 4 subjects in my first year (passed them in resit) and 4 subjects in my second year (passed only 2 in first resit, passed another 2 in second resit) then i learned my lesson, quit gaming, and got my upper second class honours degree (i admit i didnt even put all my effort in it, only study since the last 2 weeks before the exam and i also got a warning for skipping classes tongue.gif) so if you work hard enough and revise everyday, make note after lectures, prepare and attend every tutorial/seminar and do some additional reading, i can't see why you would not get a first class. (unless you can't think critically and analyse the case scenarios) so please, don't be like me, give it all in and first class honours will be yours.

for bptc, i nearly get the VC T_T but whatever, passing is good enough for me tongue.gif bptc is not a hard course. once again, i will tell you why.

the three centralised assessments:
1. civil
2. criminal
3. ethics
i literally revised these 3 subjects two nights before the exams. how did i do it? thanks to my friends for providing me notes from other universities. so i just revised from the 200+ pages notes (each for civil and criminal, 50+ for ethics). and as shanashi said, 90% attendance is a must, so i was forced to attend classes now haha. i prepared and attended almost every classes. so basically i understood everything, and just memorised from the notes my friends provided.

alternative dispute resolution: subject based on basic knowledge. i just prepared and attended classes. of course, did some reading for the chapters discussed in those classes the night before exam.

the writing skills subjects (these are open-book exams):
1. drafting: just get familiar with the format. and pay attention to details to the question (critical thinking)
2. opinion writing: same like drafting, but require some legal research before the exam (area of law given 1 week before exam).
3. chancery (my elective): opinion writing
4. commercial practice (my elective): opinion writing

the practical skills subjects:
1. conference: prepare a plan (legal research, brief given 1 week before exam) and skill to think on your feet  is required (client asks some unexpected questions or raised some unexpected issue)
2. civil advocacy: prepare a skeleton argument (legal research, brief given 1 week before exam) and skill to think on your feet is required (judge may raise questions)
3. examination in chief: learn the techniques in class and use them in exam, thorough factual analysis, again, skill to think on your feet as the client may not be co-operative
4. cross examination: haha the subject i enjoyed the most! same like examination in chief, but this time you are dealing with an opponent's client/witness (expect hostile behavior!) thorought factual analysis is a must! you also have to think out of the box sometimes to trap the witness into admitting your accusation without a chance of denying tongue.gif

ok, im not here to show off what i did to pass my bptc, but to provide some insights because me too, was exposed to myths and was so nervous about them. as you can see, bptc is not hard, but it requires consistent effort throughout the course (prepare and attend the classes) and the ability to look into fine details and think on your feet. if i almost get a VC, for your determination, you will at least get a VC and outstanding is possible smile.gif

sorry for the words galore though tongue.gif
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Oh man! Thanks for the info! laugh.gif
Personally I'm also a gamer, but for some reason, I just can't get hooked on games recently (which is a good thing , i guess, =P.) Funny how once you have nothing better to do like studying (my intake is next month), games just feels like a waste of time Most games (even new ones) bore me pretty quickly.
So I'll try not to start any online games that will occupy too much of my time (though I might still play offline games once in a while i guess, too much of an AC fanboy to let up so soon sweat.gif )

But, although I never skip classes (unless I'm sick or a family emergency), I have this problem of falling asleep in class. Not that I deliberately want to sleep, with arms folded and resting my head on the desk and all, but I'll start nodding off if the class gets too boring, so I'm somewhat worried in this aspect (i used to nod off a lot during bio and chemi, where the teachers just drone on and on endlessly.) Drink lots of coffee maybe? sweat.gif

Again, thanks for the info! I'll be sure to work hard to get into the bptc! smile.gif

 

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