I don't really understand employers.

Every job application must be furnished with 2 references (friends, relatives, past employers, etc).
Failing to do so would risk total rejection (at least in my experience) despite whatever the qualification and/or past working experiences (that seems to be the case, as if having references is more important than having the right qualification/experience).
And yet, given the 2 references, positively biased feedback will always be in place, such as the reference praising and having good words about the job applicant.
So what exactly is the difference between having 2 references and having zero reference, because at the end of the day, the employer will still either get no feedback or positively biased feedback (it's not that the reference will say bad things about the job applicant)?
And despite having references, many job applicants still do not work long-term or even have attitude problems.
So why are employers still requiring job applicants to give 2 references as if they are the big deal?

In my case, I have been kind of self-employed for several years and extremely rarely socialize.
And recently I feel like getting a job and get reminded that I need 2 references.
God knows I am not a criminal and I have sufficient academic qualification to back up my application.
At the same time I have some working experiences before this and I am a fast learner and a highly independent person (after completing required training I can go completely solo or teamwork, as deem necessary).
My last employment was several years ago, so there is no way I can refer to my past employer as reference.
And I feel disappointed that employers keep asking for me to give references whenever I apply for a job.
Not that I don't want to, but for someone that don't socialize much and also being too honest, what reference can I give (I don't want to resort to cheating)?
I am at a breaking point.
I think if this keeps going on, I will go by crook and pay someone to be a reference instead.
If it has to be thru' dishonest means to get a decent employment, I think I should go for it.

For those who are working at HR department, or HR managers, or employer, etc, what do you suggest?
Why is having 2 references soooo extremely significantly important that without them, no academic qualification/working experience matters?

credibility, trustworthy, want to understand u more

Trying to judge a person's credibility, trustworthiness, etc is not by way of having references rightly in my opinion, or else there would be no staff turnover.
But there is still staff turnover, staff stealing from the cash counter, staff working few months and then quit, etc.
I don't think having references can solve such problem as credibility, trustworthiness, etc.

For a person like me seriously considering a career is totally problematic and an unnecessarily hassle with such obstacle as having references.

I find passing CFA exams far easier than that.

There are many who don't ask for references, or if no references its no big deal.

Just so happens you apply to those who embed them into their hiring process and make references compulsory.

Yes, I know, but that would apply only to some small private sdn. bhd. companies.
Many private companies still require references.
Big public listed companies all require references.
The only time I remember a reference is not needed is if you're lucky that the top manager is interviewing you (not some HR hired hands) and he liked you so much he totally offered you the job right on the spot.
That happened to me once and I was too dumb f*** not to accept.

well if youre good enough, then this little formality in big companies should not really bother you at all, right?

Dorky,

<<In my case, I have been kind of self-employed for several years >>

What is THE PROBLEM??

You can use your customers as reference.

Dreamer

Problem is, I have better compatibility with the boss/top manager than with the HR employee/interviewer.
The HR employee/interviewer is the main gatekeeper/obstacle.
Not that I can request to be interviewed by the boss/top manager.

I am self-employed trading the stock market using my own account - no customer involved (I am both the customer and the boss).

Since we are on the topic with regards to big(ger) companies, I wonder why there would be interview where only HR are present. Unless you are applying for a HR position, the related department's hiring manager should be there to evaluate your job match.

Also, if you have the credentials, I don't see why you would need references. It may be part of the interview script/steps for the hirer, but if they are interested enough in you, that would not matter.

I really don't know.
Yeah, I guess you're right about the dept.'s head that do the interviewing.
And yes, that would lead to higher success rate than if interviewed by the staff.
As long as it is the dept.'s head/manager that does the interviewing, I guess the success rate would be much higher, probably wouldn't stress so much on the reference.
The staff doing the interviewing would follow the protocol and insist on the references and they are the one that will collect all the data from the interviewing from all the job applicants and then relay to the head.
If I fail to give the reference, then may lead to rejection by the staff.
The reference always gives me headache, as if I am some potential criminal or something.

Dorky,

Who ask you to apply jobs through HR?? If you can contact the boss / hiring manager directly, you can bypass all those HR BS.

Dreamer

I don't have such a privilege.
I am just an average job seeker.

Dorky,

If you CHOOSE to be average, don't WHINE!!!

<<I don't have such a privilege.>>

It is NOT a privilege. It is NOT something that is given to you. It is something that you have to work hard to make it happen. It takes a lot of EFFORTS. And, if you have time and energy to WHINE, you have the time and energy to make it happen..

It is YOUR CHOICE...

Dreamer

Okay then, tell me how to contact the boss/manager who doesn't know me and always busy with other things.

You know, you really make it sound so easy to get employed, as if you are some hiring manager or something, where anyone can freely contact you for business/employment.

Do you know any hiring secret that I and everyone else don't already know of?

Dorky may I know which job field are you actively applying to? Most of the jobs that I applied to previously as a fresh graduate did not request for references.

Dorky,

Easy -> no. Does it improves your chances with MORE EFFORTS?? Yes.

<<tell me how to contact the boss/manager who doesn't know me and always busy with other things.>>

How do you research a stock??

It is THE SAME here.

Where do you want to work??

What field do you want to work in??

Which companies are hiring??

Who do you know that might know someone in those companies??

Who can introduce you to those people??

Why do they want to talk to you??

What can you offer to those hiring manager??

You KNOW the questions. You know the answers that you need to research on. The ONLY QUESTION is are you willing to put in the EFFORT or WHINE about HR??

I have 10K+ posts in lowyat. If you want more tips, do a search in J&C forum.

Dreamer

//So why are employers still requiring job applicants to give 2 references as if they are the big deal?//

If you can't even get 2 people to say nice things about you.
That my dear, is just plain sad.

I've worked in 5 different countries in the last 8 years in big MNC's, and although I've put down references, none of them have ever been contacted by HR or by the hiring manager or anybody from the company.

So I dunno what you are whining about.

Getting your childhood friend to help or Uni friends will do. I don't think they will want you to get your ex employer to write you a ref letter given that you have left them for so many years.

Also, if you can't get anyone, including any friends to write you a ref letter, that reflects pretty badly on you. They will probably doubt your ability to socialize at all. Of course, if they want to hire a trader to sit in front of the desk with minimal interaction with any living thing, maybe it's not important.

So, in short, just get a friend who knows you (even remotely) to write for you if you have no better choices. Uncles or aunties work too.... prefably those with senior positions in some other companies.

I was thinking about this too, using relatives, although I feel inappropriate (by right should be ex-employer).
So I guess I will just find some relatives to be reference.

"None of them" was not part of my experience.
Last time I applied at a bank and the bank sent a letter to one of my reference asking how to describe me as a person and my reference shown me the letter asking me how I would like to answer to them.
So I ended up writing the letter in response to the bank instead of my reference.

Please don't give me bullshit by saying no MNC companies ever contacted your reference.
Give a call to your reference and ask if they ever contacted by the HR.
If ALL OF THEM say no, then you have great luck in being a hired hand.

Let's be honest. Asking for reference is pretty standard. Who you dare to give as reference shows at least ---are you only able in saying you are good , think you are good or are someone willing to testify you are good. Whether credible source or not will depends on what HR think of your references . You will also be surprised how many people who is your quoted reference will give VERY honest opinion of theirs on you.

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: Apr 23 2013, 10:02 AM

referee does not have your your former employer. it can be your friends, relatives, someone who really know you well.

as you mentioned, your last employment was several years ago and 2 reference is needed, just put your ex-boss and say, your bestie, or really close ex-colleague.

the reason why hr ask for reference is because they want to judge what sort of person you are - first impression.

i personally think, you dont have to sweat so much about it

Linkedin

That's exactly what I did. The people I put as references are people very close to me who I know would have my back. But each time I changed jobs I asked them did HR contact them and each time the answer was no. You may say Ok I'm lucky that my particular companies the HR don't care much about references, but my point is that if I can get a few jobs without my references being referred to then there's no reason why eventually you can't either.

they do. in fact, HR does other way of checking as well, depending on your position. if hr feels the reference you provided to them may give them a bias opinion, (or for some reason), they'll get opinion from somewhere else.

hr is like a small time PI for a company.

Dorky,

1) Why do you ask someone to be your reference but DO NOT work out the detail ahead of time as to what you want your reference to say about you??

2) Why you do not keep your reference in the loop as to what jobs you are applying now??

Dreamer

One of my reference doesn't know English so well, so I ended up doing the writing.

"Why you do not keep your reference in the loop as to what jobs you are applying now??"
I don't know what you mean.

It means, if you nominate someone as a referee, let the referee know of your activities that may require him to take action.

Aisey, man. This reference thing is really an unnecessary burden to me.
Have to find 2 new reference every time I find a new job (cannot keep using the same 2 reference lah, unless they are very close friends that don't mind giving the favor all the time).
Then have to update them some more of the type of jobs I am applying and what I am doing recently.
At the end, the HR dept gets the reference, and still risk employing people with attitude problem, etc.

Can I use dreamer101 as reference ah?
Dreamer101 can describe me as someone who is knowledgeable and outspoken, along with good English skills.


This post has been edited by Dorky: Apr 29 2013, 12:04 AM

Dorky,

If you CANNOT find 2 persons that are willing to be your reference ALL THE TIME, you do not have any REAL CLOSE FRIENDS. Everyone else can find and keep 2 persons as their permanent reference. Why can't you??

<<Can I use dreamer101 as reference ah?>>

I do not know you. And, I give reference to very few people that I know.

Dreamer

Don't worry. I was just kidding.
I have friends, but I don't socialize as much as as average person would, that's my main problem.
That doesn't make me an incompetent person, nor an incompetent employee.

Anyway, the main topic of this thread is the hassle and unreliability of having reference, and still HR dept put much emphasis on it.

I can give ah pig ah dog (not-so-close relatives) as reference but what's the point?

Dorky,

I do not socialize much either. But, I definitely have more than a few people that I can count on for help and reference.

Dreamer

So the point is still having reference is the way to go, right?

That's why I hate this and the reason for this thread.
That's okay. I know how the stupid society works.
If the society is smart and intelligent, we would be full of people like Albert Einstein and Thomas Edison.

A truly stupid idea of having reference and yet doesn't accept parents as reference is truly stupid beyond logic.
A parent would give positively biased response.
A non-parent reference would also give positively biased response.
It is like asking how tall are you and if you know your height, you will pass, and if not you will be rejected.
Seriously, height? (no, that's just made up, but equally as stupid as asking for reference)

Yes, maybe I am a loser for having no reference.
But think deep about my argument.
Maybe for a person with a nick like "Dorky" sounds stupid and not to be taken seriously his argument, then you can imagine someone that is your close friend or family member that is making the same argument as I and think deep about it and see if my argument is making sense.

Dorky,

He who has the gold make the rule.

Whether the society is stupid or not according to YOU is IRRELEVANT. Unless and until you are FIRE (Financially Independent Retired Early) and you no longer need a job, you need to play by certain rule. Or, as I said before, LEARN how to bypass HR, then, you do not need to play by this rule too.

<<But think deep about my argument.>>

Why?? You are IRRELEVANT. You are not hiring anyone. Hence, what you THINK and BELIEVE is not important to people looking for jobs.

Dreamer

I know a goldbug when I "see" one.

Dorky,

1) I am NOT a goldbug.

2) By the way, you are behind in time. The latest hype is silver.

Dreamer

I only had references in my first job after graduation. I put down the dean of my faculty and my boss in the company I worked for during my sandwich year.

But after that, I have not supplied any references since then. I just tell any prospective employers to call the public line of any of my former employers (HR or the leaders of the business units or functions, offices of the professional bodies mentioned in my resume) to verify my job titles and job scopes. I structure my resume to clearly show constant, repeated progression every 2 years into consistently larger and larger roles. If that does not tell you all you need to know about me as a professional, and you need to hear a rehearsed BS opinion from an unverifiable, un-independent source of my choosing... maybe you are not savvy enough to be my employer.

This post has been edited by seantang: Apr 29 2013, 01:06 AM

I am not a silverbug but I am ahead of them.

That's nice.

Dorky,

If you are ahead, you are FIRE now. You will not be looking for a job. Do not compare with anyone. Focus on running your own race.

Dreamer

Well, I am still interested to look for a job.
And this reference thing is still a major unnecessary hassle.