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> Salary discussions should stop

Coontbag
post Apr 12 2013, 05:09 PM


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Before moving on to the next paragraph, I will apologize first for being so cynical, it is not my intention to offend anyone, but I think it is something that needs to be addressed, perhaps at the wrong channel. But nonetheless, here goes something that I will be flamed for all eternity.

As an employer, who used to be an employee, I know that the amount of salary anyone gets paid varies from person to person. The issue with the Malaysian workforce nowadays is that we expect too much, with very little to give in return. When employed, the first thing any employer will tell their employees is that their salary figure is P&C and should not be discussed among colleagues as it would create disharmony and questions of disparities will arise from there.

For one to say "Hey, go work at xxx company, you will get 2.5K as a fresh grad" would not hold true for everyone. What I often hear from people or ex-employees is that the companies that they work for, are cheap for not increasing their salary, or my company is so dysfunctional because they haven't promoted me in the past 3 years. As someone who is in management, I enjoy evaluating my employees. I enjoy looking at their work rate and performance. The problem with grads is that they expect automatic promotions. (Do not believe? read through some of the other threads). They think that the longer they work=the more they should be paid and the higher their title should be. IF you haven't been promoted in the past 3 years, there is clearly something wrong with your work. IF you have not had an increment, clearly, you are not doing something right, or you are not doing anything at all. It is easier to point the blame at the management than to evaluate oneself.

I understand fresh grads are keen to know what is the industry standard for salaries. But if we are feeding all these information that we ALL deserve to have at least RM2.5K upon graduating, then we are actually nurturing non-productivity, and really creates an expectation that should not be there. I know a lot of you are going to comment saying that they want to know the minimum wage and so forth. But the fact of the matter is, Malaysia do not have a minimum wage (well, RM900 if that's what you're looking for). The nominal wage really depends on what the person is capable of.

Finally though, I am not saying that fresh grads should be paid peanuts. Take it as a learning experience. I certainly couldn't survive with my starting pay. I had to make alot of sacrifices in order for me to advance in my career. We all have to start somewhere, and when you have no previous experience, it is near to impossible for employers to gauge how much to pay you. The probation period is always the toughest for all fresh grads, but if you excel in what you do, your employers will notice. No idiot would want to mistreat a staff that is excellent, especially with the Malaysian workforce nowadays.

Sorry if this offended anyone, or anyone felt that sting. I just drew this thread up to get some discussion going.

Thanks
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tishaban
post Apr 12 2013, 05:16 PM


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For hundreds of years we were exploited by the British.

Now are we letting our own countrymen/women exploit us?

I'm definitely not going to spoonfeed anyone or layan anyone's vision of entitlement but the more transparent salary and benefits discussions are, the less we can be exploited.

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seantang
post Apr 12 2013, 05:25 PM


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Ironically, employers are the ones who keep asking prospective employees to bring their payslips, EA forms etc.

So, employees are supposed to tell prospective employers what they earn/used to earn but not tell other employees?
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BRC
post Apr 12 2013, 05:27 PM


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I'm directly your opposite. Maybe revealing the company name might be against confidentiality however disclosing ones salary would enable an employee to be driven. Many a times some guy comes into my company and thought he's got the best offer (40%) jump from his previous only to realise that he could have gotten at least 100% raise from previous intake.

Some even come in and realized that they are mentoring their team leader/manager

Why this happen? Because everyone is so caught up with the P&C of their income. Thinking that they are at the top of the food chain but really they are really still at the bottom.

Some might be abit reserved with their income but if you are. At least know where you stand amongs your peers then you can gauge whether you've been slacking too much, on par or performing.

Otherwise our future will be just as bleak as the past 55 years. Stagnant pay. When everything else have increased two-three folds

Think about this

This post has been edited by BRC: Apr 12 2013, 05:29 PM
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VeeJay
post Apr 12 2013, 05:30 PM


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Just to keep this simple and short...

Employers need to set a career path for an employee. There are check points and tangible targets to be met. If end of the path, the employee meets those criteria then give them the promotion/increment, or whatever that had been agreed upon.



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Coontbag
post Apr 12 2013, 05:30 PM


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QUOTE(tishaban @ Apr 12 2013, 05:16 PM)
For hundreds of years we were exploited by the British.

Now are we letting our own countrymen/women exploit us?

I'm definitely not going to spoonfeed anyone or layan anyone's vision of entitlement but the more transparent salary and benefits discussions are, the less we can be exploited.
*
Good point.

QUOTE(seantang @ Apr 12 2013, 05:25 PM)
Ironically, employers are the ones who keep asking prospective employees to bring their payslips, EA forms etc.

So, employees are supposed to tell prospective employers what they earn/used to earn but not tell other employees?
*
The requesting of payslips are done in order to verify the validity of claims on the resume. Any tom d*** and harry can say they are making RM10K working at EDIT Microsoft

This post has been edited by Coontbag: Apr 12 2013, 05:38 PM
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Coontbag
post Apr 12 2013, 05:33 PM


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QUOTE(BRC @ Apr 12 2013, 05:27 PM)
I'm directly your opposite. Maybe revealing the company name might be against confidentiality however disclosing ones salary would enable an employee to be driven. Many a times some guy comes into my company and thought he's got the best offer (40%) jump from his previous only to realise that he could have gotten at least 100% raise from previous intake.

Some even come in and realized that they are mentoring their team leader/manager

Why this happen? Because everyone is so caught up with the P&C of their income. Thinking that they are at the top of the food chain but really they are really still at the bottom.

Some might be abit reserved with their income but if you are. At least know where you stand amongs your peers then you can gauge whether you've been slacking too much, on par or performing.

Otherwise our future will be just as bleak as the past 55 years. Stagnant pay. When everything else have increased two-three folds

Think about this
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Then lets twist that perspective a little. Think of yourself as the employee who got the 40% raise over the 100% raise. His performance has been lacking and hasn't been on par. Would he deserve that amount as well?

EDIT: (Premature sending biggrin.gif)

I think in the ideal world, yes, it might motivate or drive us. But realistically, money only motivates for a short while and then we just get complacent thinking we will get a raise no matter what. So if you are a horrible worker, and you compare salary with your colleagues and you realize you are getting less, I doubt this would be a driving point for anyone to improve. It will be a major complaining point, hence less productivity. Attitudes like "f*** this, I am getting paid less anyways, might as well work less", etc etc. Of course there are exceptions

This post has been edited by Coontbag: Apr 12 2013, 05:37 PM
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ak101ss
post Apr 12 2013, 06:23 PM


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My apologies, but in a country where racial bigotry is practiced in the career world (job application/renumeration/career growth), transperency in forums like this help prevent exploitation/diversification by race.

Career forums help weed out employers that are exploitative and prevent employees from being trapped into working with those type of employers.

fresh BSc graduate of race B gets paid 1.8k while fresh BSc graduate of race A gets paid 2.3k. Same qualifications, same position. This has to stop, and your opinion/way of thinking is a retardant to that stop.
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seantang
post Apr 12 2013, 06:31 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 05:30 PM)
The requesting of payslips are done in order to verify the validity of claims on the resume. Any tom d*** and harry can say they are making RM10K working at EDIT Microsoft
*
If your point is that employees shouldn't compare what employers pay other employees (their peers) because it generates the wrong expectation amongst them - then shouldn't employers stop comparing what the employee is getting from other employers (their peers) because that also generates the wrong sort of expectations amongst them?

If employees are to trust that employers are paying them fairly, then shouldn't the employers trust themselves to pay their employees fairly - instead of trying to pay them according to what they were being paid elsewhere?

This post has been edited by seantang: Apr 12 2013, 06:33 PM
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Coontbag
post Apr 12 2013, 06:40 PM


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QUOTE(ak101ss @ Apr 12 2013, 06:23 PM)
My apologies, but in a country where racial bigotry is practiced in the career world (job application/renumeration/career growth), transperency in forums like this help prevent exploitation/diversification by race.

Career forums help weed out employers that are exploitative and prevent employees from being trapped into working with those type of employers.

fresh BSc graduate of race B gets paid 1.8k while fresh BSc graduate of race A gets paid 2.3k. Same qualifications, same position. This has to stop, and your opinion/way of thinking is a retardant to that stop.
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That is a completely different issue alltogether I feel. I mean, that is something that should be taken care of by the labour board, but of course, living in bolehland, it will be quite hard to monitor any such matter. This sort of inequality happens in every country and I do understand the concern. e.g, treatment against women and such. This is something that needs to be addressed culturally.

Again, just opening up for discussion. It is not to say I am campaigning against the stop of these sort of threads. But I find there are more whiny kids than those who are actually here to look for the industry standards.

Thanks for your input. So good to hear arguments from different angles, and this is exactly the sort of responses that I hoped for. Not full on flaming and asking me to go die
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Coontbag
post Apr 12 2013, 06:51 PM


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QUOTE(seantang @ Apr 12 2013, 06:31 PM)
If your point is that employees shouldn't compare what employers pay other employees (their peers) because it generates the wrong expectation amongst them - then shouldn't employers stop comparing what the employee is getting from other employers (their peers) because that also generates the wrong sort of expectations amongst them?

If employees are to trust that employers are paying them fairly, then shouldn't the employers trust themselves to pay their employees fairly - instead of trying to pay them according to what they were being paid elsewhere?
*
What I meant is this that you can put on your resume that you have worked anywhere. From Facebook to Microsoft to TM or whatever that pleases you. The only real way for you to prove your employment in these companies is by your pay slip. But that is not what I was trying to convey. I have specifically mentioned fresh grads. For those who have had experience or headhunted elsewhere, of course the company needs to know these information. For all you know, it might be some BS on the resume.

I am sure these said employees would never reveal how much they are making. It is common sense to not do it. I don't know how far along are you in your career or if you're still studying. If you decide to switch a job for a better package, you will definitely not reveal to your colleagues. It makes no sense to have your new colleagues bickering if you are getting paid more.

Never once in my post I have said that employees should trust their employers on what they are getting paid. I have just stated that more likely than not, if you are not getting promoted or having increment in the past 3 years, and you do not have the balls to complain to your management, then there's something wrong. You know when you had a really really bad exam and you know you failed the exam the moment you step out of the examination hall, but you still keep telling yourself that you might get a mark here and there?

I'm again, not advocating exploitation from employers. I am just opening up for discussion. And thanks smile.gif

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ThanatosSwiftfire
post Apr 12 2013, 06:53 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 06:51 PM)
What I meant is this that you can put on your resume that you have worked anywhere. From Facebook to Microsoft to TM or whatever that pleases you. The only real way for you to prove your employment in these companies is by your pay slip. But that is not what I was trying to convey. I have specifically mentioned fresh grads. For those who have had experience or headhunted elsewhere, of course the company needs to know these information. For all you know, it might be some BS on the resume.

I am sure these said employees would never reveal how much they are making. It is common sense to not do it. I don't know how far along are you in your career or if you're still studying. If you decide to switch a job for a better package, you will definitely not reveal to your colleagues. It makes no sense to have your new colleagues bickering if you are getting paid more.

Never once in my post I have said that employees should trust their employers on what they are getting paid. I have just stated that more likely than not, if you are not getting promoted or having increment in the past 3 years, and you do not have the balls to complain to your management, then there's something wrong. You know when you had a really really bad exam and you know you failed the exam the moment you step out of the examination hall, but you still keep telling yourself that you might get a mark here and there?

I'm again, not advocating exploitation from employers. I am just opening up for discussion. And thanks  smile.gif
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Can summarise? Alot of words... but my comprehension is bad, so I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say.
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Coontbag
post Apr 12 2013, 06:56 PM


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QUOTE(ThanatosSwiftfire @ Apr 12 2013, 06:53 PM)
Can summarise? Alot of words... but my comprehension is bad, so I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say.
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Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. haha
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sparda
post Apr 12 2013, 07:00 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 05:09 PM)
IF you haven't been promoted in the past 3 years, there is clearly something wrong with your work. IF you have not had an increment, clearly, you are not doing something right, or you are not doing anything at all. It is easier to point the blame at the management than to evaluate oneself.
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I understand that you are an employer yourself, and that you feel that if a person has not been promoted for 3 years there must be something wrong with his work. But do you really think all employers would try their best to promote employees who do good work if these employees make no requests or demands ever? I have a suspicion many would just keep their employees' pay as low as possible. To achieve a balance, employees have to demand back as well, so they need to compare their salaries with others.
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Coontbag
post Apr 12 2013, 07:06 PM


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QUOTE(sparda @ Apr 12 2013, 07:00 PM)
I understand that you are an employer yourself, and that you feel that if a person has not been promoted for 3 years there must be something wrong with his work. But do you really think all employers would try their best to promote employees who do good work if these employees make no requests or demands ever? I have a suspicion many would just keep their employees' pay as low as possible. To achieve a balance, employees have to demand back as well, so they need to compare their salaries with others.
*
I think in a small company, it is more prominent for good employees to be retained and kept happy. For bigger companies, there are always KPI monitoring and such. So in that sense, that is already taken care of. Your KPI directly reflects your promotion and etc.

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krackpayjal
post Apr 12 2013, 07:06 PM


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QUOTE(sparda @ Apr 12 2013, 07:00 PM)
I understand that you are an employer yourself, and that you feel that if a person has not been promoted for 3 years there must be something wrong with his work. But do you really think all employers would try their best to promote employees who do good work if these employees make no requests or demands ever? I have a suspicion many would just keep their employees' pay as low as possible. To achieve a balance, employees have to demand back as well, so they need to compare their salaries with others.
*
yup I agree to that..
I work with few employee..
some of the your boss are always looking for your mistake..so that they no need to promote you...
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Coontbag
post Apr 12 2013, 07:08 PM


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I think alot of you are missing the point from my post, or not really reading it. Perhaps its too long. My focus was actually on fresh grads and their starting package.
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ak101ss
post Apr 12 2013, 07:08 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 06:40 PM)
That is a completely different issue alltogether I feel. I mean, that is something that should be taken care of by the labour board, but of course, living in bolehland, it will be quite hard to monitor any such matter. This sort of inequality happens in every country and I do understand the concern. e.g, treatment against women and such. This is something that needs to be addressed culturally.

Again, just opening up for discussion. It is not to say I am campaigning against the stop of these sort of threads. But I find there are more whiny kids than those who are actually here to look for the industry standards.

Thanks for your input. So good to hear arguments from different angles, and this is exactly the sort of responses that I hoped for. Not full on flaming and asking me to go die
*
It may be perceived as a different issue, but salary discussions do help in tackling those issues. It's not the solution, yes, but it helps.

I also understand your perception where the younger generation prey on these forums to obtain a better pay the easy way - this only can be dealt by your people; the employers. The employers are to assess these people and weed the whiners out from the real work force.

You're much welcome and thank you for your kind reply. I myself am a fresh graduate who is currently exploring for opportunities, but I'm no whiner. smile.gif
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sparda
post Apr 12 2013, 07:12 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 07:06 PM)
I think in a small company, it is more prominent for good employees to be retained and kept happy. For bigger companies, there are always KPI monitoring and such. So in that sense, that is already taken care of. Your KPI directly reflects your promotion and etc.
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Ok, so if there is no discussion on what is the market salary, how will good employees know how they are being treated compared to others? This is not conducive to making them happy right?
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tishaban
post Apr 12 2013, 07:15 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 06:51 PM)
What I meant is this that you can put on your resume that you have worked anywhere. From Facebook to Microsoft to TM or whatever that pleases you. The only real way for you to prove your employment in these companies is by your pay slip. But that is not what I was trying to convey. I have specifically mentioned fresh grads. For those who have had experience or headhunted elsewhere, of course the company needs to know these information. For all you know, it might be some BS on the resume.
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Unless you worked with companies that no longer exist, HR should be calling those companies to verify your employment. A payslip is not evidence of employment since it's easily forged. It is a @seantang said just a method for companies to pay you based on what you made before, not what you're actually worth.

Also a fresh grad won't have any experience, so how would he/she be able to produce any evidence of previous employment?

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sparda
post Apr 12 2013, 07:15 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 07:08 PM)
I think alot of you are missing the point from my post, or not really reading it. Perhaps its too long. My focus was actually on fresh grads and their starting package.
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I fail to see the point if you are focusing on fresh grads. You state that an expectation of a minimum salary for fresh grads fosters a feeling of entitlement - that if they do not produce they should still get a certain pay. But if a person is a fresh grad, how do we know whether he will produce or not? Obviously the salary package for the fresh grad is then paying for his potential instead of productivity. And we need to know what price tag different employers place on this potential in order to make a rational choice between them.
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Coontbag
post Apr 12 2013, 07:24 PM


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QUOTE(sparda @ Apr 12 2013, 07:12 PM)
Ok, so if there is no discussion on what is the market salary, how will good employees know how they are being treated compared to others? This is not conducive to making them happy right?
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Our world is run by economics and this is no different in regards to jobs. The higher your demand is, the more expensive you are. Lets picture yourself in the office with a bunch of your colleagues. Col A, Col B, and Col C. You absolutely despise Col B and you feel that you do work much better than him. Col B tells you that he is getting paid about RM500 more than you. His KPI is much better than yours and his work rate is much better than yours. But still, you despise him. You think that this is favouritism and so forth.

You might think this is far fetched and would never happen. You would be surprise how often I've seen it. I've even dealt with employees who gave me an ultimatum to increase their salary because he found out so and so is getting more than him. Little did he know, it was purely based on performance. I had no choice but to let him go, because he handed in letter the next day and I refused to bow down to his outrageous demands. Mind you, this ex-employee had only been with me for 6 months where as the other staff for a year.

In terms of sharing market salary with others for information, I do not see a problem in that. My title might be a little misleading and I was directing most of the post to the fresh grads. Sorry bout that
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Coontbag
post Apr 12 2013, 07:31 PM


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QUOTE(sparda @ Apr 12 2013, 07:15 PM)
I fail to see the point if you are focusing on fresh grads. You state that an expectation of a minimum salary for fresh grads fosters a feeling of entitlement - that if they do not produce they should still get a certain pay. But if a person is a fresh grad, how do we know whether he will produce or not? Obviously the salary package for the fresh grad is then paying for his potential instead of productivity. And we need to know what price tag different employers place on this potential in order to make a rational choice between them.
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That is the issue here. You have pretty much answered my argument with your statement. What is the worth of a fresh grad? What is the potential earnings of a fresh grad? We do not know. That is all slated by company policies and different industries do have their own generally acceptable wage. That is why there is a probation period.

So for one who reads along a forum and feels that he is worth RM3000 instead of the offered RM2500, because he read that someone here is getting RM3000 and declines the job offer, does it really benefit anyone? It destroys the reputation of a company and he loses out on a job offer. Does that sound logical to you?
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sparda
post Apr 12 2013, 07:40 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 07:24 PM)
Our world is run by economics and this is no different in regards to jobs. The higher your demand is, the more expensive you are. Lets picture yourself in the office with a bunch of your colleagues. Col A, Col B, and Col C. You absolutely despise Col B and you feel that you do work much better than him. Col B tells you that he is getting paid about RM500 more than you. His KPI is much better than yours and his work rate is much better than yours. But still, you despise him. You think that this is favouritism and so forth.

You might think this is far fetched and would never happen. You would be surprise how often I've seen it. I've even dealt with employees who gave me an ultimatum to increase their salary because he found out so and so is getting more than him. Little did he know, it was purely based on performance. I had no choice but to let him go, because he handed in letter the next day and I refused to bow down to his outrageous demands. Mind you, this ex-employee had only been with me for 6 months where as the other staff for a year.

In terms of sharing market salary with others for information, I do not see a problem in that. My title might be a little misleading and I was directing most of the post to the fresh grads. Sorry bout that
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If you are saying that for non-fresh grads you do not see a problem in sharing market salary with others for information, then we agree on this. Let's discuss the fresh grad issue then.

QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 07:31 PM)
That is the issue here. You have pretty much answered my argument with your statement. What is the worth of a fresh grad? What is the potential earnings of a fresh grad? We do not know. That is all slated by company policies and different industries do have their own generally acceptable wage. That is why there is a probation period.

So for one who reads along a forum and feels that he is worth RM3000 instead of the offered RM2500, because he read that someone here is getting RM3000 and declines the job offer, does it really benefit anyone? It destroys the reputation of a company and he loses out on a job offer. Does that sound logical to you?
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Ok, let us assume in one industry there is company A and company B. Company A pays 3000 for fresh grads while Company B pays 2500. Let us examine two situations, one where fresh grads know about both these salaries and one where they are completely in the dark.

In situation A, where both salaries are known, more fresh grads will apply for Company A, especially the top ones, so Company A will have the pick of the bunch, as they should have as a reward for offering more pay. Company B will have to either be satisfied with getting second pick, or mitigate the situation by raising their pay or using other conditions to compensate for lower pay, such as learning opportunities.

However in situation B, where both salaries are unknown, both companies will get job applicants to the same extent (barring other criteria such as locale), and among fresh grads in the industry, who ends up getting more pay will be a matter of luck. Someone who went to Company B without knowing about the pay situation may feel disgruntled later when he finds out about Company A, and to good cause. Besides this, Company B will not need to raise their pay in this situation of information asymmetry, thus destroying the meaning of free competition. Surely you can see that this is not a good thing.
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thesnake
post Apr 12 2013, 07:45 PM


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TS, i think the problem is whereby you find that most fresh grads are too demanding and feel that they are 'entitled' for certain RM XXXX salary. Im really unsure the purpose of the salary thread initially, but i think it has the purpose of giving a more transparent view of what fresh graduates are suppose to be expecting in their respective industries.

Its an open forum anyways, at least it gives job seekers (first time or not) some basic information on the salary standard of the market that is offering today. Some information is better than no information at all. Although some 'fresh grads' may be using the salary thread to bench mark the market salaries, we cant just simply fault them for being choosy and they having the feeling of 'entitlement'. They are adults and should know how to think for themselves.
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Coontbag
post Apr 12 2013, 08:00 PM


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QUOTE(sparda @ Apr 12 2013, 07:40 PM)
If you are saying that for non-fresh grads you do not see a problem in sharing market salary with others for information, then we agree on this. Let's discuss the fresh grad issue then.
Ok, let us assume in one industry there is company A and company B. Company A pays 3000 for fresh grads while Company B pays 2500. Let us examine two situations, one where fresh grads know about both these salaries and one where they are completely in the dark.

In situation A, where both salaries are known, more fresh grads will apply for Company A, especially the top ones, so Company A will have the pick of the bunch, as they should have as a reward for offering more pay. Company B will have to either be satisfied with getting second pick, or mitigate the situation by raising their pay or using other conditions to compensate for lower pay, such as learning opportunities.

However in situation B, where both salaries are unknown, both companies will get job applicants to the same extent (barring other criteria such as locale), and among fresh grads in the industry, who ends up getting more pay will be a matter of luck. Someone who went to Company B without knowing about the pay situation may feel disgruntled later when he finds out about Company A, and to good cause. Besides this, Company B will not need to raise their pay in this situation of information asymmetry, thus destroying the meaning of free competition. Surely you can see that this is not a good thing.
*
Your argument makes sense. But to use it for debate purposes, it falls apart if in situation B they don't know what they're paying before, but will only know after.

Really though, I appreciate you pointing out from this angle. It does make sense in a way smile.gif

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dreamer101
post Apr 12 2013, 09:17 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 05:30 PM)
Good point.
The requesting of payslips are done in order to verify the validity of claims on the resume. Any tom d*** and harry can say they are making RM10K working at EDIT Microsoft
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Coontbag,

This is clearly a bunch of BS...

You are hiring a person to do THE JOB. How much a person is making at Microsoft is IRRELEVANT. Your only RELEVANT thought should be

A) Can the person do the job??

B) How much the job is worth to you??

I had hired people without knowing people previous pay. Only INCOMPETENT and LAZY people need to know candidate previous pay.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Apr 12 2013, 09:23 PM
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dreamer101
post Apr 12 2013, 09:22 PM


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QUOTE(sparda @ Apr 12 2013, 07:40 PM)
If you are saying that for non-fresh grads you do not see a problem in sharing market salary with others for information, then we agree on this. Let's discuss the fresh grad issue then.
Ok, let us assume in one industry there is company A and company B. Company A pays 3000 for fresh grads while Company B pays 2500. Let us examine two situations, one where fresh grads know about both these salaries and one where they are completely in the dark.

In situation A, where both salaries are known, more fresh grads will apply for Company A, especially the top ones, so Company A will have the pick of the bunch, as they should have as a reward for offering more pay. Company B will have to either be satisfied with getting second pick, or mitigate the situation by raising their pay or using other conditions to compensate for lower pay, such as learning opportunities.

However in situation B, where both salaries are unknown, both companies will get job applicants to the same extent (barring other criteria such as locale), and among fresh grads in the industry, who ends up getting more pay will be a matter of luck. Someone who went to Company B without knowing about the pay situation may feel disgruntled later when he finds out about Company A, and to good cause. Besides this, Company B will not need to raise their pay in this situation of information asymmetry, thus destroying the meaning of free competition. Surely you can see that this is not a good thing.
*
sparda,

It is VERY SIMPLE...

This a willing buyer and willing seller case. Whoever is a BETTER negotiator and shopper wins. And, in order to win, people that has BETTER information has an upper hand. Employer especially HR had been UNFAIRLY asking people's previous pay and expected salary. Meanwhile, they are NOT revealing salary range of the job. This is ONE sided disclosure to low ball offer to the job applicant.

My statement apply to ALL job applicants.. Even the fresh graduates. Who should a fresh grad to be taken advantage and get pay lower than other fresh graduates??

Dreamer
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post Apr 12 2013, 10:10 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 05:09 PM)
Before moving on to the next paragraph, I will apologize first for being so cynical, it is not my intention to offend anyone, but I think it is something that needs to be addressed, perhaps at the wrong channel. But nonetheless, here goes something that I will be flamed for all eternity.

As an employer, who used to be an employee, I know that the amount of salary anyone gets paid varies from person to person. The issue with the Malaysian workforce nowadays is that we expect too much, with very little to give in return. When employed, the first thing any employer will tell their employees is that their salary figure is P&C and should not be discussed among colleagues as it would create disharmony and questions of disparities will arise from there.

For one to say "Hey, go work at xxx company, you will get 2.5K as a fresh grad" would not hold true for everyone. What I often hear from people or ex-employees is that the companies that they work for, are cheap for not increasing their salary, or my company is so dysfunctional because they haven't promoted me in the past 3 years. As someone who is in management, I enjoy evaluating my employees. I enjoy looking at their work rate and performance. The problem with grads is that they expect automatic promotions. (Do not believe? read through some of the other threads). They think that the longer they work=the more they should be paid and the higher their title should be. IF you haven't been promoted in the past 3 years, there is clearly something wrong with your work. IF you have not had an increment, clearly, you are not doing something right, or you are not doing anything at all. It is easier to point the blame at the management than to evaluate oneself.

I understand fresh grads are keen to know what is the industry standard for salaries. But if we are feeding all these information that we ALL deserve to have at least RM2.5K upon graduating, then we are actually nurturing non-productivity, and really creates an expectation that should not be there. I know a lot of you are going to comment saying that they want to know the minimum wage and so forth. But the fact of the matter is, Malaysia do not have a minimum wage (well, RM900 if that's what you're looking for). The nominal wage really depends on what the person is capable of.

Finally though, I am not saying that fresh grads should be paid peanuts. Take it as a learning experience. I certainly couldn't survive with my starting pay. I had to make alot of sacrifices in order for me to advance in my career. We all have to start somewhere, and when you have no previous experience, it is near to impossible for employers to gauge how much to pay you. The probation period is always the toughest for all fresh grads, but if you excel in what you do, your employers will notice. No idiot would want to mistreat a staff that is excellent, especially with the Malaysian workforce nowadays.

Sorry if this offended anyone, or anyone felt that sting. I just drew this thread up to get some discussion going.

Thanks
*
I believe the employers have the responsibility to evaluate the performances of their employees. IF there is something wrong with their work or they are not doing things right and they do not realize it, they should be informed by the management. Further, they should know where they stand against other employees - whether they are in the top 10% or the bottom 10% like in the middle. That way they know why their increments are smaller than others and why they are not being promoted.

As for payslips, most employers do not use them to verify the employment history of candidates. They use payslips to gauge how much to offer the candidates! If they really want to the work history of candidates, they can always call up their previous employers.

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sasaug
post Apr 12 2013, 10:42 PM


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Employer should decide how much a person is worth and salary benchmark let people know how much roughly they worth if they have these experience.

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sparda
post Apr 12 2013, 10:48 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 08:00 PM)
Your argument makes sense. But to use it for debate purposes, it falls apart if in situation B they don't know what they're paying before, but will only know after.

Really though, I appreciate you pointing out from this angle. It does make sense in a way smile.gif
*
A pleasure to debate with a reasonable fellow such as yourself.

In situation B, if they don't know what they are paying before, but only know after, then this helps company B to attract applicants, at the expense of company A, thus distorting proper market functions. Afterwards when they find out they may get unhappy, which promotes unrest, thus we get the worst of both worlds.

QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 12 2013, 09:22 PM)
sparda,

It is VERY SIMPLE...

This a willing buyer and willing seller case.  Whoever is a BETTER negotiator and shopper wins.  And, in order to win, people that has BETTER information has an upper hand.  Employer especially HR had been UNFAIRLY asking people's previous pay and expected salary.  Meanwhile, they are NOT revealing salary range of the job.  This is ONE sided disclosure to low ball offer to the job applicant.

My statement apply to ALL job applicants.. Even the fresh graduates.  Who should a fresh grad to be taken advantage and get pay lower than other fresh graduates??

Dreamer
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Yes I agree completely.
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lin00b
post Apr 12 2013, 11:02 PM


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I call BS on this.Salary range is information, and everyone should have access to information. How that person act on the information is up to him.

From an employer/business owner point of view, would you go into a business without knowing what the market rate is for your product?
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dreamer101
post Apr 12 2013, 11:07 PM


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QUOTE(lin00b @ Apr 12 2013, 11:02 PM)
I call BS on this.Salary range is information, and everyone should have access to information. How that person act on the information is up to him.

From an employer/business owner point of view, would you go into a business without knowing what the market rate is for your product?
*
lin00b,

I will make this slight adjustment...My own and someone's else salary is P&C. But, I could help someone by revealing the typical salary range and market rate of certain job if I choose to.

For example, if I work for HL Bank, it is unethical for me to say the fresh graduate salary at HLB is XYZ. This is my employer's P&C information. But, I could say that the typical fresh graduate salary at Malaysian Local Bank is ABC...

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Apr 12 2013, 11:10 PM
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lin00b
post Apr 12 2013, 11:27 PM


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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 12 2013, 11:07 PM)
lin00b,

I will make this slight adjustment...My own and someone's else salary is P&C.  But, I could help someone by revealing the typical salary range and market rate of certain job if I choose to.

For example, if I work for HL Bank, it is unethical for me to say the fresh graduate salary at HLB is XYZ.  This is my employer's P&C information.  But, I could say that the typical fresh graduate salary at Malaysian Local Bank is ABC...

Dreamer
*
disagree.

an individual's salary is P&C for reason of security and privacy.

a position's salary range and benefits for a certain company shouldnt be P&C. if HLB is offering the bottom range of the Malaysian Local Bank salary range compared to CIMB thats offering near the top, potential employees and existing employees at both banks have the right to know. And you cant really keep it a secret anyways, if a person is in the industry long enough, he will have some idea via rumours, hearsay, and networks.
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MyStiC
post Apr 12 2013, 11:42 PM


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Funny how alot of the malaysian jobs description ask for expected salary and not disclose it. All Australia's job ads shows the salary range for the position.

I think this kind of practice in Malaysia is just pathetic, they are obviously trying to limit the salary pay out as much as possible. Rejecting those that ask for high expected salary and choose those that have no clue about the salary range.
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dreamer101
post Apr 13 2013, 12:15 AM


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QUOTE(MyStiC @ Apr 12 2013, 11:42 PM)
Funny how alot of the malaysian jobs description ask for expected salary and not disclose it. All Australia's job ads shows the salary range for the position.

I think this kind of practice in Malaysia is just pathetic, they are obviously trying to limit the salary pay out as much as possible. Rejecting those that ask for high expected salary and choose those that have no clue about the salary range.
*
MyStiC,

This only works when we have a pool of people that know how to perform at work but do not know how to pay for their performance.. So, we should educate people at J&C forum to fix this problem. Aka, teach people to find out their true market rate.

Unfortunately, we still have a lot of dummies in the world. They have the ILLUSION that as long as they word hard, they will be taken care of by the employer. In real world, that usually is not true..

Dreamer
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frontierzone
post Apr 13 2013, 12:25 AM


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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 13 2013, 12:15 AM)
In real world, that usually is not true..
Dreamer
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Would you mind to elaborate on what the aspects that one should be mindful of in the real world?
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dreamer101
post Apr 13 2013, 12:37 AM


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QUOTE(frontierzone @ Apr 13 2013, 12:25 AM)
Would you mind to elaborate on what the aspects that one should be mindful of in the real world?
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frontierzone,

Be AWARE....

1) Know what is happening in your industry..

2) Know how much you are worth to your employer (that means beyond your boss)

3) Know how much you are worth in the market...

4) Know how to get pay your REAL WORTH....

Too many people work hard but spend too little time and effort to make sure they get paid for their performance...

Then, we also have another batch of people that chasing pay but do not make sure that their performance is worth the pay.

I have too many posts at J&C forum... You can search and find those advices....

Dreamer
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Anime-FAN
post Apr 13 2013, 02:19 AM


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It's pathetic to see such thread in existent. Salary discussion is information an a value that provides fresh grad in terms of their market value. Almost all of the employers in Malaysia practice paying to the lowest point but wants a performed worker but most of the employer do not think that "hey you pay me peanut you get monkey".

Are we trying to degrade ourselves to 4th world country to that extent (in our illusion perhaps? or I'm just being sarcastic). This is a free economic, and as far as I can see, your post and all the excuses are purely intended for the fresh grads to wishfully follow up with your previous lower pay and learnt as hard as you previously did, dream on.

Let's give them the benefit of all these information, it is entirely up to individual of the fresh grads to work from there on.

This post has been edited by Anime-FAN: Apr 14 2013, 11:21 AM
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hercules899
post Apr 13 2013, 02:26 AM


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QUOTE(MyStiC @ Apr 12 2013, 11:42 PM)
Funny how alot of the malaysian jobs description ask for expected salary and not disclose it. All Australia's job ads shows the salary range for the position.

I think this kind of practice in Malaysia is just pathetic, they are obviously trying to limit the salary pay out as much as possible. Rejecting those that ask for high expected salary and choose those that have no clue about the salary range.
*
lol, you cant blame typical China-Man Companies in Malaysia .

To TS,

Ok, You wanna discuss about fresh graduates starting pay.

As I have commented repeatedly on China-Man Companies, The most common (crazy) mindset they have is

Before I started my business, I was earning RM 900. Therefore , as I am offering RM 1500 to you now, you must be thanking me a.k.a. THE GOD for providing you a.k.a. the money to live. I was only earning RM 900 back then.

The way I see , its f***ing BS . This f***ing mindset is like BN mindset . I don't have to elaborate on BN mindset.

1st, I salute you for slaving through all these years, you hard work is finally paid off . BUT ,
fresh graduates could have started off with RM 2500 and earning triple in 3 years in MNC .

And , the most importantly, majority of the china-man companies do not even wanna pay RM 2500 in the 1st place . This is speaking of my own experience .In short, taking in all other benefits, you china-man companies are just paying like 50% to 60 % MNCs .

Why should we slave for you ? are you gonna share your business pie once we mastered the experience and start demanding? You China-man will then get back to BN mindset again and say fresh graduates do not how how to appreciate when we do so .

My suggestion is if you do not even bother about fresh graduates pay, don't even bother to start a business with fresh graduates help by brainwashing fresh graduates that its good for their learning curve. . Trying finding some friends/partners to start business, you and your friends/family members can take all profits so to speak .

The whole-fresh-graduates-pay is P&C bla bla bla is just a tactic of exploitation .

Sorry for being so blunt. ohmy.gif

This post has been edited by hercules899: Apr 13 2013, 02:48 AM
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hercules899
post Apr 13 2013, 02:29 AM


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QUOTE(Anime-FAN @ Apr 13 2013, 02:19 AM)
It's pathetic to see such thread in existent. Salary discussion is information an a value that provides fresh grad in terms of their market value. Almost all of the employees in Malaysia practice paying to the lowest point but wants a performed worker but most of the employee do not think that "hey you pay me peanut you get monkey".

Are we trying to degrade ourselves to 4th world country to that extent (in our illusion perhaps? or I'm just being sarcastic). This is a free economic, and as far as I can see, your post and all the excuses are purely intended for the fresh grads to suck up with your previous lower pay and learnt as hard as you previously did, dream on. 

Let's give them the benefit of all these information, it is entirely up to individual of the fresh grads to work from there on.
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I am 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% agreed on this.
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~PussyDevil~
post Apr 13 2013, 08:15 AM


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I don't understand why Malaysians have to be secretive in everything. Employers in UK advertised their job with the salary bolded to attract prospective employees.


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iastate
post Apr 13 2013, 08:31 AM


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QUOTE(hercules899 @ Apr 13 2013, 02:26 AM)
lol, you cant blame typical China-Man Companies in Malaysia .

To TS,

Ok, You wanna discuss about fresh graduates starting pay.

As I have commented repeatedly on China-Man Companies, The most common (crazy) mindset they have is

Before I started my business, I was earning RM 900. Therefore , as I am offering RM 1500 to you now, you must be thanking me a.k.a. THE GOD for providing you a.k.a. the money to live. I was only earning RM 900 back then.

The way I see , its f***ing BS . This f***ing mindset is like BN mindset . I don't have to elaborate on BN mindset.

1st, I salute you for slaving through all these years, you hard work is finally paid off . BUT ,
fresh graduates could have started off with RM 2500 and earning triple in 3 years in MNC .

And , the most importantly, majority of the china-man companies do not even wanna pay RM 2500 in the 1st place . This is speaking of my own experience .In short, taking in all other benefits, you china-man companies are just paying like 50% to 60 % MNCs .

Why should we slave for you ? are you gonna share your business pie once we mastered the experience and start demanding? You China-man will then get back to BN mindset again and say fresh graduates do not how how to appreciate when we do so .

My suggestion is if you do not even bother about fresh graduates pay, don't even bother to start a business with fresh graduates help by brainwashing fresh graduates that its good for their learning curve.  . Trying finding some friends/partners to start business, you and your friends/family members can take all profits so to speak .

The whole-fresh-graduates-pay is P&C bla bla bla is just a tactic of exploitation .

Sorry for being so blunt.  ohmy.gif
*
Chinaman companies give low pay. If people leave, they will just hire other people who are willing to settle for such low pay. How sad!

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ace.princess
post Apr 13 2013, 09:53 AM


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It's very simple:

As an employee, you want to be paid the max you can demand.
As an employer, you want to pay the minimum, while demanding the best quality you can.

At the end of the day, it's about how you manage the dynamics. Just as how a clever employee knows how to negotiate their position, be an employer who knows how to work their way out, hiring the best candidate within their budget.

Just life, live with it.
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jason57
post Apr 13 2013, 10:17 AM


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I certainly do not agree with you, why you need to hide the salary unless you did something fishy or helping on one side?

If you check the global world with the power of internet, you can easily know how oversea value their workers, stated clearly their position, salary and increment.
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Blue_Blood
post Apr 13 2013, 10:38 AM


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It's open market now... For employer..i notice that they have difficulties as now malaysia market become one of a focus from MNC... Then, stop dreaming to get cheap cost worker.... If you want a quality worker start to pay like it...
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anangryorc
post Apr 13 2013, 01:22 PM


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Oh wait... you're an employer right ? biggrin.gif
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ThanatosSwiftfire
post Apr 13 2013, 01:34 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 06:56 PM)
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. haha
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Apologies if I come across as sarcastic. I'm really bad at understanding what you want to say, cause I read the points I wasn't sure what stand you were making.
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post Apr 13 2013, 09:07 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 05:09 PM)
As an employer, who used to be an employee, I know that the amount of salary anyone gets paid varies from person to person. The issue with the Malaysian workforce nowadays is that we expect too much, with very little to give in return. When employed, the first thing any employer will tell their employees is that their salary figure is P&C and should not be discussed among colleagues as it would create disharmony and questions of disparities will arise from there.
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You do this out of self-interest to keep your company humming nicely at a budget, not because you want us wage-earners to be informed of our choices.
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NVee
post Apr 13 2013, 10:01 PM


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People in this forum give a totally wrong view about salaries.

the salary's formula is not X+Y+W = MYR ZZZZ: it does not mean you have X years experience (or you are a fresh grad.), and applied to Y company for W position then your salary is ZZZZ , just because it happened to someone else.

there a lot of things involved and NOT limited to: your skills, the kind of position you have applied to, the company itself, how badly the company wants someone in that position, your soft skills; what impression you left in the employer's eyes during the interview, and how good your interview was.

as a fresh graduate, the last thing you should think about is your salary.

and YES , Salary discussions should stop.
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Blue_Blood
post Apr 13 2013, 10:56 PM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 13 2013, 10:01 PM)
People in this forum give a totally wrong view about salaries.

the salary's formula is not X+Y+W = MYR ZZZZ: it does not mean you have X years experience (or you are a fresh grad.), and applied to Y company for W position then your salary is ZZZZ , just because it happened to someone else.

there a lot of things involved and NOT limited to: your skills, the kind of position you have applied to, the company itself, how badly the company wants someone in that position, your soft skills; what impression you left in the employer's eyes during the interview, and how good your interview was.

as a fresh graduate, the last thing you should think about is your salary.

and YES , Salary discussions should stop.
*
Come on bro...its open discussion and i think thats might help the employee to know their market price. I've saw so many cases where there are underpaid employee with the increment below than 2% of their salary. Based on our inflation rate the increment doesnt cope with the inflation rate at all. It's might help them to decide what skill or attitude that they need to meet the market demands, they can use the discussion on salary on how much the amount they should state in their CV, however the final decisio is still from the employer itself right... brows.gif brows.gif
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dreamer101
post Apr 14 2013, 09:47 AM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 13 2013, 10:01 PM)
People in this forum give a totally wrong view about salaries.

the salary's formula is not X+Y+W = MYR ZZZZ: it does not mean you have X years experience (or you are a fresh grad.), and applied to Y company for W position then your salary is ZZZZ , just because it happened to someone else.

there a lot of things involved and NOT limited to: your skills, the kind of position you have applied to, the company itself, how badly the company wants someone in that position, your soft skills; what impression you left in the employer's eyes during the interview, and how good your interview was.

as a fresh graduate, the last thing you should think about is your salary.

and YES , Salary discussions should stop.
*
NVee,

1) If EVERYTHING that you said is TRUE, then, the EMPLOYER should be FLEXIBLE in the salary that they pay to each employee instead of a fixed salary range and budget??

2) And, why don't they tell people out front what their budgeted salary range for each job??

You are spilling a bunch of BS!!! The REALITY is most employer has a fixed range and budget for a job. But, instead of being out front on this, they choose to hide this and hope to hire the employee at lower price by asking for previous pay and expected salary.

Dreamer


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NVee
post Apr 14 2013, 10:53 AM


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QUOTE(Blue_Blood @ Apr 13 2013, 10:56 PM)
Come on bro...its open discussion and i think thats might help the employee to know their market price. I've saw so many cases where there are underpaid employee with the increment below than 2% of their salary. Based on our inflation rate the increment doesnt cope with the inflation rate at all. It's might help them to decide what skill or attitude that they need to meet the market demands, they can use the discussion on salary on how much the amount they should state in their CV, however the final decisio is still from the employer itself right... brows.gif  brows.gif
*
then a better source for salary range is salary reports (such as Kelly Services' one), not very random personal opinions.


QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 14 2013, 09:47 AM)
NVee,

1) If EVERYTHING that you said is TRUE, then, the EMPLOYER should be FLEXIBLE in the salary that they pay to each employee instead of a fixed salary range and budget??

2) And, why don't they tell people out front what their budgeted salary range for each job??

You are spilling a bunch of BS!!!  The REALITY is most employer has a fixed range and budget for a job.  But, instead of being out front on this, they choose to hide this and hope to hire the employee at lower price by asking for previous pay and expected salary.

Dreamer
*
I didn't get how what you've said conflicts with mine.
yes most if not all employers have budgets for salaries as a whole (i.e this year we have XXX,XXX to spend on salaries). and there is too a range for each position based on company's requirements. like for Position Y our range is 2500 - 5500 (AND YES SOME JOB VACANCIES SHOW THIS RANGE). 2500 if fresh grad, 5500 if 2 years experience with great soft and hard skills, now one might have 2 years experience, but lacking many soft and hard skills might get offered 4500 for example.

they ask for your previous salary because they don't know exactly how much you deserve,the job interview might give an idea, but they need to work with you for some time know, if you did well in your interview and your previous salary was 5000, then they know that your ex employer knows you are valuable and payed you 5000, so they will offer you 6000, and 6500 after probation -when they become sure you are valuable (for example). same goes if your previous pay is little, and you are asking for much more, while your interview was not convincing...
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post Apr 14 2013, 11:04 AM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 14 2013, 10:53 AM)
then a better source for salary range is salary reports (such as Kelly Services' one), not very random personal opinions.
I didn't get how what you've said conflicts with mine.
yes most if not all employers have budgets for salaries as a whole (i.e this year we have XXX,XXX to spend on salaries). and there is too a range for each position based on company's requirements. like for Position Y our range is 2500 - 5500 (AND YES SOME JOB VACANCIES SHOW THIS RANGE). 2500 if fresh grad, 5500 if 2 years experience with great soft and hard skills, now one might have 2 years experience, but lacking many soft and hard skills might get offered 4500 for example.

they ask for your previous salary because they don't know exactly how much you deserve,the job interview might give an idea, but they need to work with you for some time know, if you did well in your interview and your previous salary was 5000, then they know that your ex employer knows you are valuable and payed you 5000, so they will offer you 6000, and 6500 after probation -when they become sure you are valuable (for example). same goes if your previous pay is little, and you are asking for much more, while your interview was not convincing...
*
NVee,

<<then a better source for salary range is salary reports (such as Kelly Services' one), not very random personal opinions.>>

Then, why do the employer need your previous pay and expected salary?? They KNOW the salary range.

<< yes most if not all employers have budgets for salaries as a whole (i.e this year we have XXX,XXX to spend on salaries). and there is too a range for each position based on company's requirements. like for Position Y our range is 2500 - 5500 (AND YES SOME JOB VACANCIES SHOW THIS RANGE). 2500 if fresh grad, 5500 if 2 years experience with great soft and hard skills, now one might have 2 years experience, but lacking many soft and hard skills might get offered 4500 for example.>>

They do not tell you out front. But, they want you tell them your previous pay and expected salary.

<<they ask for your previous salary because they don't know exactly how much you deserve,>>

1) This is a OUTRIGHT LIE. You are either a HR person or a YOUNG and NAIVE person.

2) How much an employer pay is based on how much the job worth... It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with a person's previous pay.

<< if you did well in your interview and your previous salary was 5000, then they know that your ex employer knows you are valuable and payed you 5000, so they will offer you 6000, and 6500 after probation -when they become sure you are valuable (for example). same goes if your previous pay is little, and you are asking for much more, while your interview was not convincing...>>

3) Another OUTRIGHT LIE. Most companies has a HR policy that they will not pay more than 115% of a person's previous pay. Once a person REVEALED his previous pay, he / she will not be able to get 50% or 60% more even if the employer had budgeted that much for the job.

4) Another way to prove this is a bunch of BS. All jobs are not the same. For example, a similar IT job at a supplier is usually 30% more than same job at an user. This is to compensate for the additional work and stress.

In summary, you are either

A) an HR person

or

B) An YOUNG and NAIVE person.

Or

C) Employer that want to take advantage of employees

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Apr 14 2013, 11:05 AM
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post Apr 14 2013, 11:13 AM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 14 2013, 10:53 AM)
then a better source for salary range is salary reports (such as Kelly Services' one), not very random personal opinions.
I didn't get how what you've said conflicts with mine.
*
Kelly services are based on percentage of X number of people = Y .

What other skills U mentioning are equally X in malaysia divide 300% of actual salary in first world country compare to malaysia plus our currency are -300% off the actual radar unlike other asian country = Singapore which is only -160% off.

In same facts, malaysia employee are still paying us peanut .. thus even with RM5k = USD1.6k = Equal to normal cleaner/janitor salary in the States.

With all the inflation, cars, houses, flats, apartments, commodities such as buying groceries are still way off. In the states while with all the GST, they are still selling 2 dollar of milk in a box.

Someone do remind him this one principal which occur in all humanity .. we are moving towards better future not (-) towards degradation future.

Those random salary are the actual fact of a working adult, what kind of random U are referring to?






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post Apr 14 2013, 11:20 AM


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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 14 2013, 11:04 AM)
NVee,

<<then a better source for salary range is salary reports (such as Kelly Services' one), not very random personal opinions.>>

Then, why do the employer need your previous pay and expected salary??  They KNOW the salary range.

<< yes most if not all employers have budgets for salaries as a whole (i.e this year we have XXX,XXX to spend on salaries). and there is too a range for each position based on company's requirements. like for Position Y our range is 2500 - 5500 (AND YES SOME JOB VACANCIES SHOW THIS RANGE). 2500 if fresh grad, 5500 if 2 years experience with great soft and hard skills, now one might have 2 years experience, but lacking many soft and hard skills might get offered 4500 for example.>>

They do not tell you out front.  But, they want you tell them your previous pay and expected salary.

<<they ask for your previous salary because they don't know exactly how much you deserve,>>

1) This is a OUTRIGHT LIE.  You are either a HR person or a YOUNG and NAIVE person.

2) How much an employer pay is based on how much the job worth... It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with a person's previous pay.

<< if you did well in your interview and your previous salary was 5000, then they know that your ex employer knows you are valuable and payed you 5000, so they will offer you 6000, and 6500 after probation -when they become sure you are valuable (for example). same goes if your previous pay is little, and you are asking for much more, while your interview was not convincing...>>

3) Another OUTRIGHT LIE.  Most companies has a HR policy that they will not pay more than 115% of a person's previous pay.  Once a person REVEALED his previous pay, he / she will not be able to get 50% or 60% more even if the employer had budgeted that much for the job.

4) Another way to prove this is a bunch of BS.  All jobs are not the same.  For example, a similar IT job at a supplier is usually 30% more than same job at an user.  This is to compensate for the additional work and stress.

In summary, you are either

A) an HR person

or

B) An YOUNG and NAIVE person.

Or

C) Employer that want to take advantage of employees

Dreamer
*
seems to me you did n't read my reply where i tried to answer your question
and again some companies tells you out front their range (a quick look at jobstreet and you will see that, example: Team Lead (Java) MYR 9500 - 13000 )

by the way, I am non of your A,B or, C. I am employee but my employer gets me involved in the hiring process sometimes.
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post Apr 14 2013, 11:22 AM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 14 2013, 11:20 AM)
seems to me you did n't read my reply where i tried to answer your question
and again some companies tells you out front their range (a quick look at jobstreet and you will see that, example: Team Lead (Java) MYR 9500 - 13000 )

by the way, I am non of your A,B or, C. I am employee but my employer gets me involved in the hiring process sometimes.
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That's explained.
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post Apr 14 2013, 11:36 AM


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QUOTE(Anime-FAN @ Apr 14 2013, 11:13 AM)
Kelly services are based on percentage of X number of people = Y .

What other skills U mentioning are equally X in malaysia divide 300% of actual salary in first world country compare to malaysia plus our currency are -300% off the actual radar unlike other asian country = Singapore which is only -160% off.

In same facts, malaysia employee are still paying us peanut .. thus even with RM5k = USD1.6k = Equal to normal cleaner/janitor salary in the States.

With all the inflation, cars, houses, flats, apartments, commodities such as buying groceries are still way off. In the states while with all the GST, they are still selling 2 dollar of milk in a box.

Someone do remind him this one principal which occur in all humanity .. we are moving towards better future not (-) towards degradation future.

Those random salary are the actual fact of a working adult, what kind of random U are referring to?
*
Random, as i said in my first post, is that someone (whom you have no idea about) will tell you I have 2 years exp in Y position, and I get paid XXXX, and the person who is asking might as well have 2 years exp in the same position and is getting much less. this could mean MANY things including: your employer is underpaying you. OR you are a lame person who does not have enough skills to get XXXX (many people fall in this category, but in this forum they will jump to conclusion that they are underpaid...). the main difference with salary guides is that here you get the opinion of 5 or 6 persons, while there you have more systematic way of know the average range (AND THIS IS JUST AN AVERAGE RANGE, SOME PEOPLE GET PAID MORE, OTHERS MIGHT GET LESS).
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post Apr 14 2013, 11:51 AM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 14 2013, 11:36 AM)
Random, as i said in my first post, is that someone (whom you have no idea about) will tell you I have 2 years exp in Y position, and I get paid XXXX, and the person who is asking might as well have 2 years exp in the same position and is getting much less. this could mean MANY things including: your employer is underpaying you. OR you are a lame person who does not have enough skills to get XXXX (many people fall in this category, but in this forum they will jump to conclusion that they are underpaid...). the main difference with salary guides is that here you get the opinion of 5 or 6 persons, while there you have more systematic way of know the average range (AND THIS IS JUST AN  AVERAGE RANGE, SOME PEOPLE GET PAID MORE, OTHERS MIGHT GET LESS).
*
If they are such systematically HR shared service or HR personnel that DO this kind of LAME system.

U shoulda said one word "skillset" not layman terms "LAME". Is this how you learnt as part of the HR personnel towards the staff? Oh boy, enough with the insultation.

QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 14 2013, 11:36 AM)
Random, as i said in my first post, is that someone (whom you have no idea about) will tell you I have 2 years exp in Y position, and I get paid XXXX, and the person who is asking might as well have 2 years exp in the same position and is getting much less. this could mean MANY things including:
*
So your assuming now or just being sarcastic or you already knew the actual fact?

Employer has budget for everything, in Singapore Fresh are earning SGD3k above .. but in malaysia why it is not standardized and they are still getting RM1.8k?

This post has been edited by Anime-FAN: Apr 14 2013, 12:03 PM
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post Apr 14 2013, 01:20 PM


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I feel salary range should correlate with how valuable the job is to the employer, not how valuable the person is?


If the job posting is of low priority to the employer then they will have a peanut salary range. If the job posting is of particular importance to the employer, they should up the ante.

If i am an employer, I wouldn't pay my offshore oil rig workers peanuts if that may make them feel disgruntled/unsatisfied/careless/doesn't focus on their job, then I am looking at a high risk disaster, a single mistake causing my oil rig worth millions to blow up, not to mention the costs of human life.

In semicond I feel the risks are somewhat not as serious, as such the importance of the job scales down.
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post Apr 14 2013, 02:08 PM


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I feel besides money, influencing or call 'brainwashing' also one of employers skill to retain the staff.
While TS are blaming others disclosing market rate of freshie salary, why don't you learn this kind of skill to retain your staff.
Most of people are blaming chinaman boss for their idiot brainwashing on staff without increase money, but i can say, still brunch of people willing to stay with their brainwashing.
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post Apr 14 2013, 03:26 PM


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[quote=NVee,Apr 13 2013, 10:01 PM]
People in this forum give a totally wrong view about salaries.

the salary's formula is not X+Y+W = MYR ZZZZ: it does not mean you have X years experience (or you are a fresh grad.), and applied to Y company for W position then your salary is ZZZZ , just because it happened to someone else.

there a lot of things involved and NOT limited to: your skills, the kind of position you have applied to, the company itself, how badly the company wants someone in that position, your soft skills; what impression you left in the employer's eyes during the interview, and how good your interview was.

as a fresh graduate, the last thing you should think about is your salary.

and YES , Salary discussions should stop.
*

[/quote


1st, with TS is missing and you came into the discussion, I am suspicious.I think you are his dupe . But this is not important.

1. Why HR needs to view an experienced workers' current salary ?

Because they wanna offer MINIMUM salary. It is as simply as that . Please don't say you wanna see how much the person is worth . As many people have pointed about, once you reveal your previous salary, you already lost half of the negotiation battle .Why cant employers just simply put a range on the job with job descriptions on Jobtstreet ? The "demanding" job seekers would back off , and then those genuinely feel about applying would the apply .

Add the end of day, with employers choosing not even disclosing ANY INFO in regards to a person's remuneration is to protect their interest. PERIOD.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To me this phrase " As a fresh, you should not demand ". This mother f***ing phrase is created and perpetuated by China-Man companies to exploit fresh graduates to the max. Ok, if a fresh is getting RM 1500 as start, he is supposed to SLAVE 3 years for you while his peers are all getting RM3 k . When he leaves, you will have another fresh to exploit? Come on, fresh aint that stupid.

For companies wanna keep the fresh's salary as a secret, you just wanna keep offering AS LOW AS POSSIBLE (ALAP).

Its good its ALL graduates collude/pakat to start demanding, lets say RM 3k . Then, the Hidden Hand of free market ( Economy 101) will do its job according. See which say can tahan 1st, the buyer of the seller .

The fresh graduate (The seller) should start demanding and don't let employers especially cinapek companies to take advantage.

This post has been edited by hercules899: Apr 14 2013, 04:10 PM
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post Apr 14 2013, 03:34 PM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 14 2013, 10:53 AM)
then a better source for salary range is salary reports (such as Kelly Services' one), not very random personal opinions.
I didn't get how what you've said conflicts with mine.
yes most if not all employers have budgets for salaries as a whole (i.e this year we have XXX,XXX to spend on salaries). and there is too a range for each position based on company's requirements. like for Position Y our range is 2500 - 5500 (AND YES SOME JOB VACANCIES SHOW THIS RANGE). 2500 if fresh grad, 5500 if 2 years experience with great soft and hard skills, now one might have 2 years experience, but lacking many soft and hard skills might get offered 4500 for example.

they ask for your previous salary because they don't know exactly how much you deserve,the job interview might give an idea, but they need to work with you for some time know, if you did well in your interview and your previous salary was 5000, then they know that your ex employer knows you are valuable and payed you 5000, so they will offer you 6000, and 6500 after probation -when they become sure you are valuable (for example). same goes if your previous pay is little, and you are asking for much more, while your interview was not convincing...
*
Just to remind you that according to Kelly Services 2013 report , an engineer with a degree ( 3 years experience) should get at least RM 3500 . (THE MINIMUM) . Lets say a fresh is starting to get RM3k . Every Year, he needs to get 10 % increment to achieve that . So, how could you still say fresh demanding RM 3k is too much?

And please , don't trust JOBSTREET sample data on a person's salary, its too skewed to the employers side to minimize the pay row. Kelly Services are more professional.

This post has been edited by hercules899: Apr 14 2013, 03:41 PM
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post Apr 14 2013, 03:36 PM


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Ahh yes, the beauty of fresh grads nowadays.

With the Economy 101, even Economy for dummies state this, who get that sort of information first will always win.

Exactly the same applied to minimum wages .. lower educated people get paid more so does medium educated average people will be there to demand for more.

While the economy in malaysia for 900 minimum wages has only begun, few years down the road it all be just in the past, by then the salary has been standardized.

Courses in the long run for fresh grads, there will be 3 out of 10 that is left out, doesn't know a clue mat tong tong of this salary demand is.

These herd doesn't know a clue, and yet the exploitation begins from there.

In Economy 101, it is a Cycle.

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hercules899
post Apr 14 2013, 04:03 PM


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For whoever is concerned , I shall share this info.

Salary Confirmed for fresh degree holders

INTEL ( RM 3300 1st class , RM 3100 ) , all RM 3k aove
Worley Parson ( RM 2800 as fresh ) , Oil and gas,office, few years down the road, sure hitting 5 digits.
Public Bank ( RM 2800 minimum)
H20 consultancy ( RM 3100 as fresh in 2012)
Cameron International ( RM 3100 as fresh)
PETRONAS (RM 4000 as fresh)
Philips lumileds ( RM 2800 to RM 3200 for fresh)

And most importantly, for fresh graduate entering public service , you will get approximately RM 3k (inclusive allowances) on top of guaranteed certain mount of increment every year.

Ok, you imagine, this situation .

A fresh degree holder goes become teacher with RM 3k.

You are an engineer (degree) with RM 2.5k or marketing designer(degree), or whatever(degree) with only RM 1.5k to RM 2k .

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

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post Apr 14 2013, 07:27 PM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 14 2013, 11:36 AM)
Random, as i said in my first post, is that someone (whom you have no idea about) will tell you I have 2 years exp in Y position, and I get paid XXXX, and the person who is asking might as well have 2 years exp in the same position and is getting much less. this could mean MANY things including: your employer is underpaying you. OR you are a lame person who does not have enough skills to get XXXX (many people fall in this category, but in this forum they will jump to conclusion that they are underpaid...). the main difference with salary guides is that here you get the opinion of 5 or 6 persons, while there you have more systematic way of know the average range (AND THIS IS JUST AN  AVERAGE RANGE, SOME PEOPLE GET PAID MORE, OTHERS MIGHT GET LESS).
*
NVee,

It is VERY SIMPLE. People like YOU do not know how to interview and figure out whether someone can do their job. Hence, you use LAME EXCUSES like you need previous pay to judge the WORTH of a person??

I had worked for 20+ years. I was a manager for 10+ years. I NEVER need previous pay from people I interviewed to know whether they can do the job. Usually, it takes less than 5 minutes for me to know whether someone can do a job.

Dreamer
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post Apr 14 2013, 08:10 PM


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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 14 2013, 07:27 PM)
NVee,

It is VERY SIMPLE.  People like YOU do not know how to interview and figure out whether someone can do their job.  Hence, you use LAME EXCUSES like you need previous pay to judge the WORTH of a person??

I had worked for 20+ years.  I was a manager for 10+ years.  I NEVER need previous pay from people I interviewed to know whether they can do the job.  Usually, it takes less than 5 minutes for me to know whether someone can do a job.

Dreamer
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Less than 5 mins? What did you ask? Care to share?
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post Apr 14 2013, 08:57 PM


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you guys here a have a serious issue: you think all employers are evil and they want to low-ball you. while bad employers exist, most are not, they will pay if you deserve, asking for current salary is something used in most companies world wide. (is it good or bad ? I don't know, it is debatable - personally I don't like it).

one last word about the fresh graduates: Malaysian fresh graduates ARE the problem themselves, not the employers. It has been said many times in the last two years in this country: Malaysian Fresh Graduates Lacking Soft Skills , Graduates lack soft skills
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post Apr 14 2013, 09:38 PM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 14 2013, 08:57 PM)
you guys here a have a serious issue: you think all employers are evil and they want to low-ball you. while bad employers exist, most are not, they will pay if you deserve, asking for current salary is something used in most companies world wide. (is it good or bad ? I don't know, it is debatable - personally I don't like it).

one last word about the fresh graduates: Malaysian fresh graduates ARE the problem themselves, not the employers. It has been said many times in the last two years in this country: Malaysian Fresh Graduates Lacking Soft Skills , Graduates lack soft skills
*
Dear sir, much has changed in the past two years.

Please don't divert the blame on us in an attempt to mask your incompetencies.
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post Apr 14 2013, 09:44 PM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 14 2013, 08:57 PM)
you guys here a have a serious issue: you think all employers are evil and they want to low-ball you. while bad employers exist, most are not, they will pay if you deserve, asking for current salary is something used in most companies world wide. (is it good or bad ? I don't know, it is debatable - personally I don't like it).

one last word about the fresh graduates: Malaysian fresh graduates ARE the problem themselves, not the employers. It has been said many times in the last two years in this country: Malaysian Fresh Graduates Lacking Soft Skills , Graduates lack soft skills
*
U r seriously incompetent in being part of HR personnel.

I m in the IT line, with 2.5years of experience I m now earning 4k PM. As far as I m concern my work related in the states should be roughly around USD6K PM and not RM4K PM. Tell me what kind of low-ball U r referring to? It is a fact.

I m a quiet person, note the bolded part? but in my work relates I need to pass down my knowledge to global user through webex conference and only require to speak when there is work-related.

What kind of soft skills are U referring to? Beside than those unnecessary small chit-chat/kopitiam in the office or strategically talking conversation?

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post Apr 14 2013, 09:54 PM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 14 2013, 08:57 PM)
you guys here a have a serious issue: you think all employers are evil and they want to low-ball you. while bad employers exist, most are not, they will pay if you deserve, asking for current salary is something used in most companies world wide. (is it good or bad ? I don't know, it is debatable - personally I don't like it).

one last word about the fresh graduates: Malaysian fresh graduates ARE the problem themselves, not the employers. It has been said many times in the last two years in this country: Malaysian Fresh Graduates Lacking Soft Skills , Graduates lack soft skills
*
Just stop hiding the truth that majority of the SMEs which are controlled by China-Man mindset are just trying squeeze the fresh out there, unwilling to pay a graduates' pay and keep on criticizing the fresh . YET wanna get the good quality graduates.


But. They have no problem hiring foreigners from Bangladesh especially who obviously cannot communicate Bahasa, English ( ZERO SOFT SKILLS) to sell IT products such as Bangladesh people in BERJAYA TIMES SQUARE SHOPPING MALL, KL SENTRAL to sell UNIFI products and etc .


COME ON, just spend RM 1500 to get local people to do the job, I guarantee hundreds of people will be queuing up for the job.

Again, just wanna pay RM 500 ringgit for a worker. How pathetic. rclxub.gif
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post Apr 14 2013, 10:03 PM


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QUOTE(hercules899 @ Apr 14 2013, 09:54 PM)
Just stop hiding the truth that majority of the SMEs which are controlled by China-Man mindset are just trying squeeze the fresh out there, unwilling to pay a graduates' pay and keep on criticizing the fresh . YET wanna get the good quality graduates.


But. They have no problem hiring foreigners from Bangladesh especially who obviously cannot communicate Bahasa, English ( ZERO SOFT SKILLS) to sell IT products such as Bangladesh people in BERJAYA TIMES SQUARE SHOPPING MALL, KL SENTRAL to sell UNIFI products and etc .

COME ON, just spend RM 1500 to get local people to do the job, I guarantee hundreds of people will be queuing up for the job.

Again, just wanna pay RM 500 ringgit for a worker. How pathetic. rclxub.gif
*
+1

If I m a good quality of grads, I would not be working in your company merely paying RM2.5k for grads, I m expecting RM4k and ABOVE as starting point.
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post Apr 14 2013, 10:03 PM


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- Double posted

This post has been edited by Anime-FAN: Apr 14 2013, 10:04 PM
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post Apr 14 2013, 10:28 PM


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QUOTE(~PussyDevil~ @ Apr 14 2013, 08:10 PM)
Less than 5 mins? What did you ask? Care to share?
*
I would say the most straight forward way would be to give a series of "sample problems/tasks" the employee would be expected to face on the job and see how the employee respond to it.
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dreamer101
post Apr 14 2013, 10:35 PM


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QUOTE(~PussyDevil~ @ Apr 14 2013, 08:10 PM)
Less than 5 mins? What did you ask? Care to share?
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QUOTE(lin00b @ Apr 14 2013, 10:28 PM)
I would say the most straight forward way would be to give a series of "sample problems/tasks" the employee would be expected to face on the job and see how the employee respond to it.
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+100...


It is not hard if the interviewer is not INCOMPETENT and not a HR person. A REAL Hiring Manager will know the JOB and post REALISTIC task and problem.

Dreamer
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dreamer101
post Apr 14 2013, 10:44 PM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 14 2013, 08:57 PM)
you guys here a have a serious issue: you think all employers are evil and they want to low-ball you. while bad employers exist, most are not, they will pay if you deserve, asking for current salary is something used in most companies world wide. (is it good or bad ? I don't know, it is debatable - personally I don't like it).

one last word about the fresh graduates: Malaysian fresh graduates ARE the problem themselves, not the employers. It has been said many times in the last two years in this country: Malaysian Fresh Graduates Lacking Soft Skills , Graduates lack soft skills
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NVee,

Employer's goal is to make money. Hence, it want to lower cost. Aka, pay as little as possible...

Employee's goal is to make as much money as possible. Aka, get pay as much as possible..

This is BASIC conflict of interest.

If you buy a house, as a buyer, you want to pay as little as possible. If you sell a house, you want to sell as high as possible.

This is BASIC business sense. There is nothing EVIL on this. People want to get the BEST DEAL. And, whoever has BETTER INFORMATION and BETTER NEGOTIATOR get the BEST DEAL...

Dreamer


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newaisa
post Apr 14 2013, 11:18 PM


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First impression on this thread:

This new employer

Doesn't have the good reputation to attract bright graduates. Thus, always encountered whiner grads and got fed up.

Is not willing to pay
(The more you pay, the more likely you will get applications, bright grads, whiner grads, if you don't have the "eyes" to filter out the whiner bunch, well....call yourself a quality employer?)


Let me share some of my experience:

For the past 2 years I have been working for chinaman

1st company: 1xxx (Initial Pay)
2nd company:
I went for interview knowing I have got the skills and capability after thorough research on the minimum pay as well ~

The HR asked me about my pay, I told them about my current(shouldn't have) and expected as well
HR: Don't you think it's quite a big jump?
ME: No, based on the scope and my capability I think I am currently underpaid

Turned out, they gave me (Expected - 20%) (Coz they think it's a big jump)
Lesson ONE: NEVER REVEAL YOUR CURRENT PAY

2 Months later:
I was interviewed by a non-chinaman company, didn't even ask me about my expected and current pay...offered me pay very close(slightly higher) to what I have known from my research (Happy until now)


So....chinaman bossess....stop your bullshits please


NOTE: I'm no whiner, I know my stuffs very well.

P.S.: Chinaman's behaviour
- Always likes to make employee thinks it is not as straightforward as what it seems to get promotion (not even meeting KPIs)
Met KPI? Sorry I think your soft skill is still lacking to take up this role (You need Boot-licking 101)
- Makes all this whole salary scale as blurry and misty as possible

This post has been edited by newaisa: Apr 14 2013, 11:23 PM
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dreamer101
post Apr 14 2013, 11:27 PM


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QUOTE(newaisa @ Apr 14 2013, 11:18 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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newaisa,

Please note that many MNC has HR policy that limit the offer to X% over previous pay. Some of this kind of behavior is not limited only chinaman SME...

Dreamer

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newaisa
post Apr 14 2013, 11:37 PM


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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 14 2013, 11:27 PM)
newaisa,

Please note that many MNC has HR policy that limit the offer to X% over previous pay.  Some of this kind of behavior is not limited only chinaman SME...

Dreamer
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Thanks for pointing that out

Since they didn't even bother asking about my current pay at that time before making offer, it shows they were paying me based on the standard job grade

Although I can't be sure whether I am at the top or bottom of the grade, at least I know someone doing the same thing as me is not being paid 50% more/less. Or even worse.

Cheers
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NVee
post Apr 15 2013, 12:35 AM


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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 14 2013, 10:44 PM)
NVee,

Employer's goal is to make money.  Hence, it want to lower cost.  Aka, pay as little as possible...

Employee's goal is to make as much money as possible.  Aka, get pay as much as possible..

This is BASIC conflict of interest.

If you buy  a house, as a buyer, you want to pay as little as possible.  If you sell a house, you want to sell as high as possible.

This is BASIC business sense.  There is nothing EVIL on this.  People want to get the BEST DEAL.  And, whoever has BETTER INFORMATION and BETTER NEGOTIATOR get the BEST DEAL...

Dreamer
*
I disagree, you can't compare buying a house to 'buying' an employee, it is not the same business sense, the employee will actively make you the money, the house will not (till you sell it). basic business sense is that by hiring the right employees and making them happy, they will make you money, if a company thinks that by saving some money when underpaying some employees by few hundred ringgits (I know there are such companies) then that's the wrong logic.
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NVee
post Apr 15 2013, 12:43 AM


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QUOTE(Anime-FAN @ Apr 14 2013, 09:44 PM)
U r seriously incompetent in being part of HR personnel.

I m in the IT line, with 2.5years of experience I m now earning 4k PM. As far as I m concern my work related in the states should be roughly around USD6K PM and not RM4K PM. Tell me what kind of low-ball U r referring to? It is a fact.

I m a quiet person, note the bolded part? but in my work relates I need to pass down my knowledge to global user through webex conference and only require to speak when there is work-related.

What kind of soft skills are U referring to? Beside than those unnecessary small chit-chat/kopitiam in the office or strategically talking conversation?
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I am not an HR personnel , I'm in IT too.

your comparison to US is invalid in all ways.

the soft skills are not mine, as the two articles I posted before shows, mainly English and interpersonal skills.
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zheng88
post Apr 15 2013, 12:47 AM


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Problem with here is salary is going to get worse for fresh grad or employee with more than 25 years experience because of supply from Middle East, West Asia like Pakistan and Bangla for executive roles. Imagine I met a PhD from Iran whose expected salary is RM2k per month which would mean that most of us would be under employed, unemployed over worked and under paid.

Already full time jobs are replacing part time jobs and full time jobs are paid part time salaries. I have been both an employer and employee and I think salaries can only get worse as the globalised world experiences massive unemployment, over qualification, dumbing down of educational standards and increasing exploitation of labour via trafficking and under unethical means.

Unfortunately, for the working masses working conditions are only going to get worse and for employers, labour conditions are getting worse because of migration and job hopping. There is a mismatch between the two sides and if there is a lack of transparency of market conditions where employers don't advertise their offer and salaries they are offering, this mis match and job hopping will get only worse. The employer has the problem of rising costs and making profit margins that are continuously squeezed because of inflation and taxes.

Mind you though should the establishment be voted in again, GST will mean that cost of living will shoot up. Taxes will be redistributed from the salaried to those in the value chain. Although you might earn more supposedly you might have to pay more for your goods and services. And should you earn more, your employer will transfer the costs to the consumers and community at large. So really, it is one big vicious cycle that doesn't get solved over night.

The other reason why fresh grad real salaries don't get better is because of globalisation as transnationals pick the cheapest country to produce their goods. The minute fresh grads ask for more pay, they shift to other regions where fresh grad salaries are lower comparatively vis a vis the foreign exchange and cost of living - purchasing power parity. Those that like me with more than 25 years work experience will be out of date with our expertise and have to retrain and retool and probably compete with fresh grads for jobs should we go back to the gravy trail. Fresh grads, don't be surprised if next your grandpa is going after the same job that you are aiming for. Thus, preventing salaries from going up and only to go down.

Really, with all this in mind, unemployment can only get higher, underemployment greater and more will have to have more jobs, multijob, multitask like those old German men that have four to five jobs to sustain their families and themselves. It is a global phenomenon where there is going to be a scarcity of food and materials. In the long run I advocate we all go green and plant our own crops and perhaps go into some kind of farming. Days when fresh grads go into a comfy job in an office is over, and the days where the division of labour between those that have and those that are not suppose to have is going to end with the Asean Free Trade Agreement. Imagine, Myammarese are going to demand their working right here just like the Polish in England where they too are suffering from the same disease that we are going through here.

The solutions to this problem that you guys are debating are global and not going to end tomorrow, in fact it is going to become worse. Europe use to have national pensions that now cannot be sustained as they can't pay pensions to the old because their youth grads are suffering from 1 in 4 unemployment. Don't look any further but have you guys been examining the grads in Greece and Cyprus they are looking to work abroad in Germany, and what is worse economy in Germany is slowing down. What irks me is even if you are going to get promotion and pay goes up as a fresh grad, money is printed with QE until the paper that the money is printed on has not much value. So the problem with promotion and pay will only get worse but then again promotion without pay increase only shows how desperate employer's conditions are. What is worse is that in Europe more and more businesses close down, go bankrupt and that means fresh grad have to pay existing employer for internship experience which gets even more ludicrous.

In USA, fresh grad are working in fast food joints with US5 an hour and suffering from discrimination too. So much for land of plenty. I have been a lecturer for more than 10 years and see that the degree itself is become meaningless as more and more colleges print their degrees without giving a thought for the future of grads and whether they get jobs. The colleges want your money and society is brainwashed that we need to be graduates to work. What is worse we would soon be like USA where our student loans will reach trillions in debt and will become the next sub prime debt crisis. In UK, A levels and degrees were established to reduce the workforce and people going into the workforce so that the government doesn't have a headache in finding jobs for fresh grads. Already, 50% of UK unis are bankrupt, so we are all lulled into the notion that grads should get jobs when there aren't any.

Debt will have to be paid in three generations whether be it housing, car and student loan like in Japan. So really guys, what is there to argue about. You only just touched the tip of the iceberg and an impending global avalanche is coming.

We are a small nation, and the impact of free trade of services would mean that migration of labour will be so large that you will never have seen it in your lifetime. In fact what is crazy is that I am beginning to see those that migrated to the West and Australia come back, complaining that they can't afford living costs even if their Pound or Dollar salaries are much higher. They are returning with their children and putting them to uni in Broga. Also, it may be time to also re think that your comfy job in the office may not be long term any longer, and that the employer will also be unemployed in the long term with cut throat competition as a result of IPP, bilateral free trade, AFTA and WTO. All this may mean that we cannot sit on our backsides and say if it doesn't happen to me it will never will. You could be in the most comfy job just like investment bankers in Spore and be laid off. Thus being grads with broken marriages as both parties married in better times. So things can change and thing will change. Only the word change doesn't change.

This post has been edited by zheng88: Apr 15 2013, 01:23 AM
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dreamer101
post Apr 15 2013, 04:20 AM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 15 2013, 12:35 AM)
I disagree, you can't compare buying a house to 'buying' an employee, it is not the same business sense, the employee will actively make you the money, the house will not (till you sell it). basic business sense is that by hiring the right employees and making them happy, they will make you money, if a company thinks that by saving some money when underpaying some employees by few hundred ringgits (I know there are such companies) then that's the wrong logic.
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NVee,

Action speaks louder than words...

If everything that you said is TRUE, then current pay and expected salary is IRRELEVANT. Why ask the job applicants??

Employer that REALLY care to pay the FAIR SALARY for a job will NEVER ask those questions.

I, as a Hiring Manager NEVER ask those questions.

<<the employee will actively make you the money, the house will not (till you sell it). >>

Who say so?? You can buy a house to earn rent too... It is just a business...

Dreamer

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dreamer101
post Apr 15 2013, 04:25 AM


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QUOTE(NVee @ Apr 15 2013, 12:43 AM)
I am not an HR personnel , I'm in IT too.

your comparison to US is invalid in all ways.

the soft skills are not mine, as the two articles I posted before shows, mainly English and interpersonal skills.
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NVee,

Then, you are a YOUNG and NAIVE person...

I had worked in IT / Datacom / Telecom industry for 20+ years across 10+ jobs over multiple countries.. Especially, in the IT fields, the salary offer can range WIDELY. It is HIGHLY dependent on how well a person NEGOTIATE.

Dreamer
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Anime-FAN
post Apr 15 2013, 04:31 AM


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What a long and useless essay ..

Students making USD5 per hour in McD in the states? Btw, Hello! Are you there? or you r one of the CYBERTROOPERS.

The minimum wages in the states are USD7 per hour and as we speak USD9 per hour will be implement in 2015.
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endau02
post Apr 15 2013, 09:21 AM


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QUOTE(~PussyDevil~ @ Apr 14 2013, 08:10 PM)
Less than 5 mins? What did you ask? Care to share?
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Blink from Malcolm Gladwell explains it well.
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Babizz
post Apr 15 2013, 10:50 AM


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In USA, fresh grad are working in fast food joints with US5 an hour and suffering from discrimination too. So much for land of plenty. I have been a lecturer for more than 10 years and see that the degree itself is become meaningless as more and more colleges print their degrees without giving a thought for the future of grads and whether they get jobs. The colleges want your money and society is brainwashed that we need to be graduates to work. What is worse we would soon be like USA where our student loans will reach trillions in debt and will become the next sub prime debt crisis. In UK, A levels and degrees were established to reduce the workforce and people going into the workforce so that the government doesn't have a headache in finding jobs for fresh grads. Already, 50% of UK unis are bankrupt, so we are all lulled into the notion that grads should get jobs when there aren't any.

*

[/quote]

In regards to your claim about US workers earning $5 an hour, your claims are not factual as the minimum wage in the States is $7.25 and most of the states have higher wages and they also have abit of tips and the cost of living in most cities excluding NY, SF and LA is MUCH lower than Malaysia (those cities costs similar or slightly above Kl). In regards to your claim about institutions printing degrees, there are many good US universities that churn out GREAT graduates that earn more than similar jobs here in Malaysia. For instance, an Audit staff in a Big Four in Malaysia, starts at about rm2800-rm3000, while a similar career in the US gets you about USD4000-4500. Please get your facts right and stop generalizing American universities.

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BRC
post Apr 15 2013, 11:11 AM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 05:33 PM)
Then lets twist that perspective a little. Think of yourself as the employee who got the 40% raise over the 100% raise. His performance has been lacking and hasn't been on par. Would he deserve that amount as well?

EDIT: (Premature sending biggrin.gif)

I think in the ideal world, yes, it might motivate or drive us. But realistically, money only motivates for a short while and then we just get complacent thinking we will get a raise no matter what. So if you are a horrible worker, and you compare salary with your colleagues and you realize you are getting less, I doubt this would be a driving point for anyone to improve. It will be a major complaining point, hence less productivity. Attitudes like "f*** this, I am getting paid less anyways, might as well work less", etc etc. Of course there are exceptions
*
it is time for employers to reward good performers and ensure non-performers are penalised.
It is only fair for those who perform...
however this is lacking in our society today especially MNC and GLC.

Except China man company which just practises "You're Fired" methodology.

On the other hand, for fresh grads it is still good to know.
Because ppl will know that you need substance to earn XXX and without it its jus XXW.
So it will encourage their reason to study or seek more knowledge.

I often get PMs for what to expect and what jobs make money.
But seriously, use the internet. It have more information than you really need.
Therefore my answer is always, "Do your research"
If i sense some effort being put in for the questions they ask. then maybe i will answer.

so my view is, share with your Peers/Internet/Colleagues (This really depends) then you know where you stand and how to IMPROVE
else 30years from now, fresh grad salary will still be 2K because "we" think they deserve so.
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Coontbag
post Apr 15 2013, 11:16 AM


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Sorry, haven't got the time to reply every single replies. I'm glad alot of you took to heart by my post.

Lets stress on some points that I might be misunderstood here:

1) I am all for having to know your range of salary. When you talk to someone in Canada in regards of jobs, they actually quote the annum salary "50K a year" etc. The only problem I do have with is the exact RM of the salary stated. Again it is well aware that each industry has a standard of ranges.

2) I am not campaigning to abolish these threads. I am just stating my view upon going through the thread and reading through. I do feel that some of them might even get in trouble with their employers if found by them

3) P&C salary package does not only apply in Malaysia, contrary to y'alls beliefs. Dis-harmonies do come along and I have seen a few first hand.

4) If you are all calling me BS and calling me names, and giving personal attacks, please go home, pick up a book and learn how to debate.

Thanks

This post has been edited by Coontbag: Apr 15 2013, 11:33 AM
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yapcl90
post Apr 15 2013, 11:29 AM


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QUOTE(tishaban @ Apr 12 2013, 05:16 PM)
For hundreds of years we were exploited by the British.

Now are we letting our own countrymen/women exploit us?

I'm definitely not going to spoonfeed anyone or layan anyone's vision of entitlement but the more transparent salary and benefits discussions are, the less we can be exploited.
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agreee thumbup.gif thumbup.gif
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NVee
post Apr 15 2013, 08:36 PM


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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 15 2013, 04:25 AM)
NVee,

Then, you are a YOUNG and NAIVE person...

I had worked in IT / Datacom / Telecom industry for 20+ years across 10+ jobs over multiple countries..  Especially, in the IT fields, the salary offer can range WIDELY.  It is HIGHLY dependent on how well a person NEGOTIATE.

Dreamer
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I said before, am involved, but not HR person myself.

and by the way, your are very polite Mr. ELDER and SMART
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dreamer101
post Apr 15 2013, 08:37 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 15 2013, 11:16 AM)
Sorry, haven't got the time to reply every single replies. I'm glad alot of you took to heart by my post.

Lets stress on some points that I might be misunderstood here:

1) I am all for having to know your range of salary. When you talk to someone in Canada in regards of jobs, they actually quote the annum salary "50K a year" etc. The only problem I do have with is the exact RM of the salary stated. Again it is well aware that each industry has a standard of ranges.

2) I am not campaigning to abolish these threads. I am just stating my view upon going through the thread and reading through. I do feel that some of them might even get in trouble with their employers if found by them

3) P&C salary package does not only apply in Malaysia, contrary to y'alls beliefs. Dis-harmonies do come along and I have seen a few first hand.

4) If you are all calling me BS and calling me names, and giving personal attacks, please go home, pick up a book and learn how to debate.

Thanks
*
Coontbag,

1) It is entirely UNFAIR that the employer INSIST on the applicant's current pay and expected salary. Meanwhile, they DO NOT DISCLOSE their salary range.

Do you agree or disagree??

2) On the other side, the EMPLOYER should get into trouble by not paying market rate salary to employees. Too many employers had taken advantage of employee bu EXPLOITING (1).

Do you agree or disagree??

3) Why should dis-harmonies be a problem if the compensation is FAIR?? Aka, the employees are paid market rate and by their performance?? I do not disclose my pay. But, I definitely have a clear idea where I stand in my company.

The TRUTH will set you free...

4) If you are spilling BS, why should people say anything less?? This is a PUBLIC forum. You have to defend and justify your opinion. If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen..

Dreamer
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NVee
post Apr 15 2013, 08:45 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 15 2013, 11:16 AM)

4) If you are all calling me BS and calling me names, and giving personal attacks, please go home, pick up a book and learn how to debate.


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typical Netizens, when they don't agree with you, they can't just say their opinion and go on... they must fight, for no reason.
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endau02
post Apr 16 2013, 07:19 AM


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QUOTE(Ferdinand5 @ Apr 14 2013, 02:08 PM)
I feel besides money, influencing or call 'brainwashing' also one of employers skill to retain the staff.
While TS are blaming others disclosing market rate of freshie salary, why don't you learn this kind of skill to retain your staff.
Most of people are blaming chinaman boss for their idiot brainwashing on staff without increase money, but i can say, still brunch of people willing to stay with their brainwashing.
*
Not really. Money talks, bullshit walkz.

those that ur describing are the ones who cant go anywhere. seen it too many times.

i have seen a dead wood serving 10 yrs in a company. he is in his mid 30s. too early to be called a dead wood, but its dead anyway.

i have also seen another problem solver one who just finish ONE project, hand over the job leaving no mess in 6 months. n she left for another job.

This post has been edited by endau02: Apr 16 2013, 08:36 AM
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jjsoong2021
post Apr 16 2013, 10:36 AM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 15 2013, 11:16 AM)

4) If you are all calling me BS and calling me names, and giving personal attacks, please go home, pick up a book and learn how to debate.

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+1
This is a discussion thread, be polite guys. smile.gif
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Coontbag
post Apr 16 2013, 11:12 AM


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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 15 2013, 08:37 PM)
Coontbag,

1) It is entirely UNFAIR that the employer INSIST on the applicant's current pay and expected salary.  Meanwhile, they DO NOT DISCLOSE their salary range.

Do you agree or disagree??

2) On the other side, the EMPLOYER should get into trouble by not paying market rate salary to employees.  Too many employers had taken advantage of employee bu EXPLOITING (1).

Do you agree or disagree??

3) Why should dis-harmonies be a problem if the compensation is FAIR?? Aka, the employees are paid market rate and by their performance??  I do not disclose my pay.  But, I definitely have a clear idea where I stand in my company.

The TRUTH will set you free...

4) If you are spilling BS, why should people say anything less?? This is a PUBLIC forum.  You have to defend and justify your opinion.  If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen..

Dreamer
*
Can we agree to disagree for 1)-3). This is like a religion discussion. It will go nowhere at this point.

For no.4), difference of opinion does not equal BS. You should learn that. It is easy for anyone to call me BS, or calling me a Chinaman and all those nonsense. It started off as an intellectual debate, and steered to name callings. I have no problem being called BS, but backed with an argument, such as your first reply.

But anyways, thanks for all y'alls replies, appreciate having this conversation with you. Continue on for intellectual purposes. Not for name calling. You're a coontbag if you do that smile.gif
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Babizz
post Apr 16 2013, 11:39 AM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 15 2013, 09:12 PM)
Can we agree to disagree for 1)-3). This is like a religion discussion. It will go nowhere at this point.

For no.4), difference of opinion does not equal BS. You should learn that. It is easy for anyone to call me BS, or calling me a Chinaman and all those nonsense. It started off as an intellectual debate, and steered to name callings. I have no problem being called BS, but backed with an argument, such as your first reply.

But anyways, thanks for all y'alls replies, appreciate having this conversation with you. Continue on for intellectual purposes. Not for name calling. You're a coontbag if you do that smile.gif
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Coontbag,

NO, we can't agree to disagree on points 1-3 just because you say so, so please debate maturely rather than simply assuming that dreamer's points would go nowhere. Please refute his claims to make this an intellectual debate.


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dreamer101
post Apr 16 2013, 08:57 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 16 2013, 11:12 AM)
Can we agree to disagree for 1)-3). This is like a religion discussion. It will go nowhere at this point.

For no.4), difference of opinion does not equal BS. You should learn that. It is easy for anyone to call me BS, or calling me a Chinaman and all those nonsense. It started off as an intellectual debate, and steered to name callings. I have no problem being called BS, but backed with an argument, such as your first reply.

But anyways, thanks for all y'alls replies, appreciate having this conversation with you. Continue on for intellectual purposes. Not for name calling. You're a coontbag if you do that smile.gif
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Coontbag,

If you want to DISCUSS on this thread, you need to DISCUSS point 1 to 3...

I am a FAIR person. I am a DEMANDING person. I am TOUGH but FAIR person. I asked a lot for my people. To be FAIR to them, I FIGHT to make sure that they get the BEST INCREMENT and BONUS. It goes both ways. If my people find a better opportunity elsewhere, I wish them best of lucks and give them a good reference.

I do not want to be taken advantage of by others and I do not take advantage of others.

Treat others like how you like to be treated.

If I cannot tell people the SALARY range of the job, why should I asked people their current pay and expected salary?? This is BASIC FAIRNESS... This is the BASIS of all morality

Folks,

This is HOW you define a GOOD BOSS. A person that is willing and capable to fight for you to get your FAIR compensation.

Many people had worked with and for me. After so many years, we are still in contact. They still want to work with me regardless of where I am.

Dreamer
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post Apr 16 2013, 09:38 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 16 2013, 11:12 AM)
Can we agree to disagree for 1)-3). This is like a religion discussion. It will go nowhere at this point.

For no.4), difference of opinion does not equal BS. You should learn that. It is easy for anyone to call me BS, or calling me a Chinaman and all those nonsense. It started off as an intellectual debate, and steered to name callings. I have no problem being called BS, but backed with an argument, such as your first reply.

But anyways, thanks for all y'alls replies, appreciate having this conversation with you. Continue on for intellectual purposes. Not for name calling. You're a coontbag if you do that smile.gif
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The way I see it, u want to exploit employee. It's as simple as that. Anyway most fresh grads have an idea of what salary to expect even without LYN salary thread.
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Coontbag
post Apr 17 2013, 11:26 AM


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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 16 2013, 08:57 PM)
Coontbag,

If you want to DISCUSS on this thread, you need to DISCUSS point 1 to 3...

I am a FAIR person.  I am a DEMANDING person.  I am TOUGH but FAIR person.  I asked a lot for my people.  To be FAIR to them, I FIGHT to make sure that they get the BEST INCREMENT and BONUS.  It goes both ways.  If my people find a better opportunity elsewhere, I wish them best of lucks and give them a good reference.

I do not want to be taken advantage of by others and I do not take advantage of others.

Treat others like how you like to be treated.

If I cannot tell people the SALARY range of the job, why should I asked people their current pay and expected salary?? This is BASIC FAIRNESS...  This is the BASIS of all morality

Folks,

This is HOW you define a GOOD BOSS.  A person that is willing and capable to fight for you to get your FAIR compensation.

Many people had worked with and for me.  After so many years, we are still in contact.  They still want to work with me regardless of where I am.

Dreamer
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Again dreamer. Read on all my replies and my posts. I have never said to hide the salary range. Never! I even said that the industry standard is known and understood. What I have stated was the exact RM X amount that they think they should be paid. Like, "HLB: Fresh grad: RM2550", etc etc. If the point that you are arguing is not even my point, then I think there's no point of us going on.

QUOTE(-Hooligan- @ Apr 16 2013, 09:38 PM)
The way I see it, u want to exploit employee. It's as simple as that. Anyway most fresh grads have an idea of what salary to expect even without LYN salary thread.
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Read above

This post has been edited by Coontbag: Apr 17 2013, 11:26 AM
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post Apr 17 2013, 11:35 AM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 17 2013, 11:26 AM)
Again dreamer. Read on all my replies and my posts. I have never said to hide the salary range. Never! I even said that the industry standard is known and understood. What I have stated was the exact RM X amount that they think they should be paid. Like, "HLB: Fresh grad: RM2550", etc etc. If the point that you are arguing is not even my point, then I think there's no point of us going on.
Read above
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Coontbag,

<<I have never said to hide the salary range. Never! I even said that the industry standard is known and understood. >>

To whom?? Not the fresh grad.. Not many people that had been interviewed by HR. And, do the employer ADVERTISED and show this in their job postings??

The answer is NO. It is NOT commonly known..

Plus, it is COMMON PRACTICE that the employer NEVER tell the job applicant the salary range of the job that they apply even during interview. But, they INSIST on asking for current salary and expected salary.

How can this be FAIR??

Let's be HONEST. Do your company

A) advertise job posting with salary range??

B) tell the job applicant the salary range of the job??

If your company do not do this, WHY do you think other companies do this??

Dreamer
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red4900
post Apr 17 2013, 11:49 AM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 06:51 PM)
What I meant is this that you can put on your resume that you have worked anywhere. From Facebook to Microsoft to TM or whatever that pleases you. The only real way for you to prove your employment in these companies is by your pay slip. But that is not what I was trying to convey. I have specifically mentioned fresh grads. For those who have had experience or headhunted elsewhere, of course the company needs to know these information. For all you know, it might be some BS on the resume.
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Funny. Who cares if they put some BS in their resume. Normally, people would do thorough interview, technical, IQ, all sorts of questions being asked face to face. Still not enough to put their credential? People can BS their way in resume, but I don't think they can run away if they can't answer complex technical questions.

What is the payslip for then? I honestly, till this day, find this as a BS from HR. In fact, they don't even need to know whether that guy has worked before or not. So long as he can answer all your interview questions perfectly, he already proved that he's good enough to enter your organization, no?
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post Apr 17 2013, 11:59 AM


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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 17 2013, 11:35 AM)

Plus, it is COMMON PRACTICE that the employer NEVER tell the job applicant the salary range of the job that they apply even during interview.  But, they INSIST on asking for current salary and expected salary.

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Agree on that, that's where forum comes in. The whole point of asking this is to make sure you know your own value, and how to know your value is mostly from discussion in forum.
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Coontbag
post Apr 17 2013, 12:00 PM


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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Apr 17 2013, 11:35 AM)
Coontbag,

<<I have never said to hide the salary range. Never! I even said that the industry standard is known and understood. >>

To whom??  Not the fresh grad.. Not many people that had been interviewed by HR.  And, do the employer ADVERTISED and show this in their job postings?? 

The answer is NO.  It is NOT commonly known..

Plus, it is COMMON PRACTICE that the employer NEVER tell the job applicant the salary range of the job that they apply even during interview.  But, they INSIST on asking for current salary and expected salary.

How can this be FAIR??

Let's be HONEST.  Do your company

A) advertise job posting with salary range??

B) tell the job applicant the salary range of the job??

If your company do not do this, WHY do you think other companies do this??

Dreamer
*
But see, you are missing the point of my post. The point that I was making was just that fresh grads should not post their exact RM salary package. You have brought this whole discussion to a whole different dimension by twisting words.

I run a retail company, so my employees base are not the educated ones, and do not usually have resumes. When I get calls, I do tell them what to expect if I hire them. A range, depending on their past experience etc. I will be honest, what I am paying to them is higher than industry standard, and contrary to ya'lls beliefs, I do not exploit my staff and I do not exploit the workforce. Those are accusations that do not have basis.

But let's discuss your two points for argument sake la, since it means so much to you. I am in no way taking any standpoint in this matter:

The companies who do not advertise salary range on job postings are TYPICALLY the bigger corporations. Like your banks, big O&G companies, etc. Because they have hundreds of staff, these companies have various different departments, and different skill set of employees. Some even do headhunting. Hence, when they advertise for fresh grads, because they are a big corp, they have the upper hand against other companies in getting the best staff and talents. They do not need to lure the future employees with money. Does this sound like exploitation to you?

Now take a look down jobstreet. See if what I say is true. The smaller companies would need to lure potential candidates through money. They do not have a reputation, hence, they need to lure them somehow. That is the only way, on advertisements, to lure potential employees. Would you not agree?

Then tell me dreamer, what is your policy in regards to hiring? If I were to ask you how much a fresh grad gets paid in your company, would you be able to tell me the exact RM amount?

Good that you are a good boss and employer. Keep it up.
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Coontbag
post Apr 17 2013, 12:07 PM


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QUOTE(red4900 @ Apr 17 2013, 11:49 AM)
Funny. Who cares if they put some BS in their resume. Normally, people would do thorough interview, technical, IQ, all sorts of questions being asked face to face. Still not enough to put their credential? People can BS their way in resume, but I don't think they can run away if they can't answer complex technical questions.

What is the payslip for then? I honestly, till this day, find this as a BS from HR. In fact, they don't even need to know whether that guy has worked before or not. So long as he can answer all your interview questions perfectly, he already proved that he's good enough to enter your organization, no?
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When you were getting interviewed, did you BS alot? Not all industries are technical. For example, marketing, merchandising. Alot of interview answers are also pulled right out of the ass.

Resume is the your first contact with a potential candidate. And yes, those BS do matter. The first thing any employer looks for in any resume is their past experiences. Anything relevant? Anything that stands out? If none, they move on to the next candidate. They DO MATTER! Not all candidates in bigger firms get interviewed.

Your reply is only logical if in a perfect world, ALL applicants get interviewed.
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Coontbag
post Apr 17 2013, 12:10 PM


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QUOTE(red4900 @ Apr 17 2013, 11:49 AM)
Funny. Who cares if they put some BS in their resume. Normally, people would do thorough interview, technical, IQ, all sorts of questions being asked face to face. Still not enough to put their credential? People can BS their way in resume, but I don't think they can run away if they can't answer complex technical questions.

What is the payslip for then? I honestly, till this day, find this as a BS from HR. In fact, they don't even need to know whether that guy has worked before or not. So long as he can answer all your interview questions perfectly, he already proved that he's good enough to enter your organization, no?
*
In the perfect world, the payslip is used to gauge whether the HR can afford employ the person or not and to not waste time if the person is out of reach. Again, in the perfect world.

Unfortunately, I agree that alot of employers do misuse this practice.
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ragk
post Apr 17 2013, 12:39 PM


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As an employee i don't oppose the salary discussion thread, not every1 are lucky enough to meet a good boss to pay what u are really deserve to. That's many china-man style companies out's there paying peanut for their worker to do monkey job.
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red4900
post Apr 17 2013, 12:45 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 17 2013, 12:07 PM)
When you were getting interviewed, did you BS alot? Not all industries are technical. For example, marketing, merchandising. Alot of interview answers are also pulled right out of the ass.

Resume is the your first contact with a potential candidate. And yes, those BS do matter. The first thing any employer looks for in any resume is their past experiences. Anything relevant? Anything that stands out? If none, they move on to the next candidate. They DO MATTER! Not all candidates in bigger firms get interviewed.

Your reply is only logical if in a perfect world, ALL applicants get interviewed.
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I was given case study for interviewing management position before, so I don't think that can't be done actually. A lot of interview answers are right out of the ass because most of the questions are just crap anyway? From my experience, roughly only 1 out of 5 companies actually bother to construct proper interview questions. Others, are just common questions you can find anywhere on the net, or just... pulled right out of the HR ass.

Yes, resume if the first point of contact, true. But you have so many other way to prove that you worked there, without giving out your payslip. Reference, name card, email (with the companies' domain) maybe?

If HR want to gauge whether they can afford this person or not, shouldn't they be the first to come out with their salary range in the advert? The downside is, you have to compete with the big fish. Come up with something else beside salary to compete then? (flexibility to work from home, more AL, holiday on birthday, not being an assholes in the office so the word got out that you are excellent employer, etc etc) I know my friend actually took a step down (in terms of from big to medium sized company) just because he doesn't want to deal stupid office politics. He's still the same smart guy, his current company actually can still benefit from his knowledge.

This post has been edited by red4900: Apr 17 2013, 12:48 PM
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Coontbag
post Apr 17 2013, 12:54 PM


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QUOTE(red4900 @ Apr 17 2013, 12:45 PM)
I was given case study for interviewing management position before, so I don't think that can't be done actually. A lot of interview answers are right out of the ass because most of the questions are just crap anyway? From my experience, roughly only 1 out of 5 companies actually bother to construct proper interview questions. Others, are just common questions you can find anywhere on the net, or just... pulled right out of the HR ass.

Yes, resume if the first point of contact, true. But you have so many other way to prove that you worked there, without giving out your payslip. Reference, name card, email (with the companies' domain) maybe?

If HR want to gauge whether they can afford this person or not, shouldn't they be the first to come out with their salary range in the advert? The downside is, you have to compete with the big fish. Come up with something else beside salary to compete then? (flexibility to work from home, more AL, holiday on birthday, not being an assholes in the office so the word got out that you are excellent employer, etc etc)
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red, Do you see that your first paragraph actually contradicts with your previous reply to me?

1) Reference- Couldn't references be made up as well? I mean couldn't they just get their father, who is working at IBM to say that his son has worked for him before?

2) Name card- Not all employees have name cards

3) E-mail- Refer to no. 1.

If you are an employee who is applying for other jobs, more likely than not, you will keep it away frm your current employer. If the future employer were to call the current HR to verify, I'm sure that's something that the applicant do not want as well, unless they are fishing for a higher salary.

Say you read an advertisement that comes from a no-name company that says a fresh grad range of RM3000-4000. Compared to "hey, you get 20 days annual leaves", etc etc. Which sounds better?
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ThanatosSwiftfire
post Apr 17 2013, 01:15 PM


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What's wrong with showing salary. Open market what. What's with all this secrecy secrecy thing. If you are not good, you should be told you are not good, and you will be paid a shitty paid. Fact.
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Coontbag
post Apr 17 2013, 01:52 PM


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QUOTE(ThanatosSwiftfire @ Apr 17 2013, 01:15 PM)
What's wrong with showing salary. Open market what. What's with all this secrecy secrecy thing. If you are not good, you should be told you are not good, and you will be paid a shitty paid. Fact.
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How is this fact?
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NFG89
post Apr 17 2013, 02:16 PM


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QUOTE(ragk @ Apr 17 2013, 12:39 PM)
As an employee i don't oppose the salary discussion thread, not every1 are lucky enough to meet a good boss to pay what u are really deserve to. That's many china-man style companies out's there paying peanut for their worker to do monkey job.
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Yeap, but Chinaman company will give out big fat bonus checks for people if business is good. Have seen relatives get 8-10 month bonus working with palm oil.
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hitsugaya2010
post Apr 17 2013, 02:43 PM


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Actually I do not get it, TS, you said that it's not proper to discuss about the full package of the fresh grads here... Sorry but I do not see any wrong about this.

May I know your concern about this? Are you trying to give an impression to the fresh grads that salary is not that important? First you must show what you have in order to get a better salary? Sorry do not really get your point.

To me, salary discussion/package discussion is just a reference for the fresh grads, to let them know their salary range in their respective sectors to prevent being exploited. As simple as that. Then it's up to them which company to apply then. But i think my opinion is already repeated in previous posts.
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ragk
post Apr 17 2013, 02:47 PM


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QUOTE(NFG89 @ Apr 17 2013, 02:16 PM)
Yeap, but Chinaman company will give out big fat bonus checks for people if business is good. Have seen relatives get 8-10 month bonus working with palm oil.
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Need to see gross value also, my increment is better than my friend, but his bonus is more than me. So his gross profit is more than me regardless my pay is higher. Could happen other way to, low pay but high bonus like one of my uncle, but gross profit still lesser than me. Of-course not every1 can get the high benefit & salary, its still depending on ur own performance and attitude. But knowing what's happening outside definitely help u a lot in judging new enviorment.

This post has been edited by ragk: Apr 17 2013, 02:47 PM
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ZZMsia
post Apr 17 2013, 03:09 PM


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QUOTE(ragk @ Apr 17 2013, 02:47 AM)
Need to see gross value also, my increment is better than my friend, but his bonus is more than me. So his gross profit is more than me regardless my pay is higher. Could happen other way to, low pay but high bonus like one of my uncle, but gross profit still lesser than me. Of-course not every1 can get the high benefit & salary, its still depending on ur own performance and attitude. But knowing what's happening outside definitely help u a lot in judging new enviorment.
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Palm Oil is a one off industry, a lot of small chinese businesses dont give out bonuses too!!
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Selectt
post Apr 17 2013, 03:18 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 12 2013, 05:09 PM)
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You are right, but totally banning salary discussion is totally wrong. I might say it's even worse. Like it or not, this is an open forum, you are in no position to stop people from discussing their salary or voicing their opinion.
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lonelytraveller
post Apr 17 2013, 05:05 PM


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the world is flat

you cannot win by limiting information to everyone

just need to learn how to use it to your advantage

can you go around and stop every internet website discussing about salary?

the hiring manager can easily say... people that get hire scored much better at the technical test so we believe he can do the job better.
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Quasi-Suave
post Apr 17 2013, 05:31 PM


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I think it's simply a question of economics. Supply vs demand.

Good candidates (either fresh or experienced) will always be in demand and may be looking at several offers at any given time. As an employer, don't expect to be able to hire anyone good or be able to retain such talent if your offer is consistently sub-market.

Inversely, less than stellar candidates may only have an offer at hand (if he/she is lucky), so its either take it or leave it.

Things may be slightly different during a employer's market / employee's market but in the end equilibrium is achieved, like it or not. Works both ways.

Hence your suggestion that a wall of silence be placed on the starting pay for graduates is rather pointless IMHO.

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Selectt
post Apr 17 2013, 05:40 PM


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/k/ says kolos this dumb thread.
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Kravo
post Apr 17 2013, 06:44 PM


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it's no point about this thread initiation.

you can keep suggest/demand other to stop discussion salary.
but it will never stop other asking the question.

deal with it.
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wlcling
post Apr 17 2013, 06:50 PM


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i feel shud keep pnc. at end of day just open a company and have salary transparent and let me know if it works out lol...
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hercules899
post Apr 17 2013, 07:22 PM


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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 17 2013, 06:50 PM)
i feel shud keep pnc. at end of day just open a company and have salary transparent and let me know if it works out lol...
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Ya right, assuming, ideally, all companies keep everyone's salary as a secret. Cinapek companies be it in Singapore or Malaysia must be laughing all the way to the bank.
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Anime-FAN
post Apr 17 2013, 07:33 PM


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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 17 2013, 06:50 PM)
i feel shud keep pnc. at end of day just open a company and have salary transparent and let me know if it works out lol...
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Contradicting comments there. If this were to happened to you, U just accept the fact, U have much much lower salary than your peers? rolleyes.gif Doubt it .. boy.

Example;

Your Peers A (high performer) = 8K
Your Peers B (average performer) = 6k
YOU (average performer) = 3k

Think again.

This post has been edited by Anime-FAN: Apr 17 2013, 07:35 PM
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lin00b
post Apr 17 2013, 07:54 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 17 2013, 12:00 PM)
The companies who do not advertise salary range on job postings are TYPICALLY the bigger corporations. Like your banks, big O&G companies, etc. Because they have hundreds of staff, these companies have various different departments, and different skill set of employees. Some even do headhunting. Hence, when they advertise for fresh grads, because they are a big corp, they have the upper hand against other companies in getting the best staff and talents. They do not need to lure the future employees with money. Does this sound like exploitation to you?
Again I call BS on that.

I work in a big OnG company and the salary range there is as systematic as it gets, with yearly review and formulas. They know who are their competitors in terms of talent and position themselves strategically to keep a balance between retaining talent and cost saving. And HR regularly hold sessions to explain about salary and benefits - despite getting bombarded every time.

everyone in the company can know roughly the range of the salary of everyone else. and similarly can roughly guess the salary of other companies in the region.

and one of the main attraction of them to freshies IS the entrance salary, which is sometimes more than twice of the typical chinaman. you think grads rush into OnG for the brand only? it's all about the money, both current entry salary and future potential salary.
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yan7
post Apr 17 2013, 08:14 PM


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just now i ask a chinapek manager, what is the salary for a fresh graduate programmer who perform quite well in current company during internship, the value of works is like a full timer programmer, in the company are mostly interns up to 6 months intern (from UM), easy to eat...90% turnover rate....
guess how he answer me : "the pay range is between RM 1700 to RM2150 ++, it depends on the programmer skills, for a fresh graduate standard market rate",

if he reply me something like : sorry our boss only manage to pay u btw RM 1700 to RM2150 ++, then I can tolerate a bit..

lucky i never do much work contribute to this company purposely since last months after i know the bad truth from other interns behind this stingy company...
i have almost 1 and half year exp, cgpa 3.1 from a famous private uni
working hour:8.30am to 6pm, late 5 minute tolak $
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hercules899
post Apr 17 2013, 09:00 PM


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QUOTE(yan7 @ Apr 17 2013, 08:14 PM)
just now i ask a chinapek manager, what is the salary for a fresh graduate programmer who perform quite well in current company during internship, the value of works is like a full timer programmer, in the company are mostly interns up to 6 months intern (from UM), easy to eat...90% turnover rate....
guess how he answer me : "the pay range is between RM 1700 to RM2150 ++, it depends on the programmer skills, for a fresh graduate standard market rate",

if he reply me something like : sorry our boss only manage to pay u btw RM 1700 to RM2150 ++, then I can tolerate a bit..

lucky i never do much work contribute to this company purposely since last months after i know the bad truth from other interns behind this stingy company...
i have almost 1 and half year exp, cgpa 3.1 from a famous private uni
working hour:8.30am to 6pm, late 5 minute tolak $
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lol, typical cheapo china-man style . Actually, is there is s huge percentage of interns in one company. Its very fishy.

It reminds me of my experiences 5 years ago while I was interning in a cinapek factory . Interns were like 30 % of the workforce.

No job contract. No EPF . No benefits . NOTHING except a RM 300 checkque per month.

Back then, I was still believing this famous phrase perpetuated by cinapek a.k.a " As fresh, we should not demand and accept whatever job/salary for a sake of learning bla bla bla"

Trust me, a MNC or a genuine company can offer you 3 X yet the same learning opportunity.

This post has been edited by hercules899: Apr 17 2013, 09:03 PM
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ragk
post Apr 18 2013, 10:26 AM


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QUOTE(yan7 @ Apr 17 2013, 08:14 PM)
just now i ask a chinapek manager, what is the salary for a fresh graduate programmer who perform quite well in current company during internship, the value of works is like a full timer programmer, in the company are mostly interns up to 6 months intern (from UM), easy to eat...90% turnover rate....
guess how he answer me : "the pay range is between RM 1700 to RM2150 ++, it depends on the programmer skills, for a fresh graduate standard market rate",

if he reply me something like : sorry our boss only manage to pay u btw RM 1700 to RM2150 ++, then I can tolerate a bit..

lucky i never do much work contribute to this company purposely since last months after i know the bad truth from other interns behind this stingy company...
i have almost 1 and half year exp, cgpa 3.1 from a famous private uni
working hour:8.30am to 6pm, late 5 minute tolak $
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deh 2150 4 fresh programmer is under pay d bruce.gif

This post has been edited by ragk: Apr 18 2013, 10:27 AM
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Coontbag
post Apr 18 2013, 12:20 PM


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QUOTE(lin00b @ Apr 17 2013, 07:54 PM)
Again I call BS on that.

I work in a big OnG company and the salary range there is as systematic as it gets, with yearly review and formulas. They know who are their competitors in terms of talent and position themselves strategically to keep a balance between retaining talent and cost saving. And HR regularly hold sessions to explain about salary and benefits - despite getting bombarded every time.

everyone in the company can know roughly the range of the salary of everyone else. and similarly can roughly guess the salary of other companies in the region.

and one of the main attraction of them to freshies IS the entrance salary, which is sometimes more than twice of the typical chinaman. you think grads rush into OnG for the brand only? it's all about the money, both current entry salary and future potential salary.
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Dude. Don't know how to read? TYPICALLY. I even wrote it in caps cos I know someone will miss that word.

Yes, you can roughly guess their salary range, and that coincides with what I was saying. Innit?

If one of the main attraction for freshies is the entrance salary, why are accountants fighting to go to a big 4 auditing firm? Their pay isn't lucrative and ridiculous hours. Again, see the word above: TYPICALLY
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lin00b
post Apr 18 2013, 11:38 PM


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QUOTE(Coontbag @ Apr 18 2013, 12:20 PM)
Dude. Don't know how to read? TYPICALLY. I even wrote it in caps cos I know someone will miss that word.

Yes, you can roughly guess their salary range, and that coincides with what I was saying. Innit?

If one of the main attraction for freshies is the entrance salary, why are accountants fighting to go to a big 4 auditing firm? Their pay isn't lucrative and ridiculous hours. Again, see the word above: TYPICALLY
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I'm only speaking in the context of "big OnG" of which there are only a handful. and yes, that is "typically" the case there - they pay freshie good money, and they are transparent about it.

I'm not speaking in the context of "big audit" or "big banks" or "big anything else", because I have no experience nor knowledge of those industries.

I m only correcting your saying "big OnG" does not disclose employee salary (ok probably not during the newspaper advert, but few weeks in, confirm the employee knows if he is underpaid, and if he is, he has a good case to get it rectified), and/or they do not disclose graduate salary (ok, not in newspaper, but every freshie of the same qualification gets exactly the same salary), and/or they do not lure freshie with money.

This post has been edited by lin00b: Apr 18 2013, 11:42 PM
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atlantiz0
post Apr 18 2013, 11:54 PM


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at least, the big banks are pretty transparent in their graduate hires.

I'm seeing a little bit of a different problem here TS...

In LYN, there seems to be some sort of bias-ness in the way salary are quoted by the forumers - I think there is a tendency for those earning higher than average to post their salaries, more so than those who earn average or below average.

So, from the fresh grad's eyes who never set foot to the employment market yet, it looks to them that they should be getting a unrealistically higher pay. I think it's pretty unhealthy to the fresh grads
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BRC
post Apr 19 2013, 09:39 AM


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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 17 2013, 06:50 PM)
i feel shud keep pnc. at end of day just open a company and have salary transparent and let me know if it works out lol...
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I suggest you go back to the drawing board because what u say jus basically show that you know nothing.

Many big companies have salary range for different levels of experience. You will know an approximate of what you will be making if a promotion would to be offered.

As lin00b said, many MNC have salary ranges and present their budgeted yearly bonus and increment pool every year.

So do your research before making a laughing stock out of yourself
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vey99
post Apr 19 2013, 10:25 AM


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QUOTE(hercules899 @ Apr 17 2013, 09:00 PM)
Trust me, a MNC or a genuine company can offer you 3 X yet the same learning opportunity.
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Sir, there are many candidates out there who do not meet the mark too.
These candidates are also part of the reason of the prevalent market rate as well.

QUOTE(ragk @ Apr 18 2013, 10:26 AM)
deh 2150 4 fresh programmer is under pay d  bruce.gif
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that depends on the type of work that needs to be performed. there are programmer jobs who do code maintenance. there are those who need to code functions as quickly as frying an egg, and there are those who need to follow strict methodology and generate tons of paperwork along the way.
each has their own price.


QUOTE(atlantiz0 @ Apr 18 2013, 11:54 PM)
In LYN, there seems to be some sort of bias-ness in the way salary are quoted by the forumers - I think there is a tendency for those earning higher than average to post their salaries, more so than those who earn average or below average.

So, from the fresh grad's eyes who never set foot to the employment market yet, it looks to them that they should be getting a unrealistically higher pay. I think it's pretty unhealthy to the fresh grads
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its quite normal to post that you have a higher salary just like how (in other subforum) you post that you have high spec PC. those with basic/entry level tend not to share cos their rig is a dime a dozen.

i believe, like many things we read on any media, to do our own due diligence before believing it. also, i see a lot queries of "where got high pay", so i guess the forumers here are answering the question by saying "accenture, Rm5000, fresh". sorry to say not everyone has the patience like dreamer to asking telling candidates "What LEVEL are you to ask for the HIGH pay? if you ask the WRONG question you will always get the WRONG answer" laugh.gif
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