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 V10 - Property Prices (Up, Down or .....), and the debate goes on and on and on ...

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joeblows
post Mar 15 2013, 09:58 PM

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QUOTE(kradun @ Mar 15 2013, 08:12 PM)
I vote for up. Waiting for the price to be adjusted in hot area is like wishing for miracle. Why? Simple because over the pass few years monitoring I only notice the overall price go up and then different is very obvious. Adjusted of 5%-10% compare to yesterday price will make u happy? I guess no because few years back u probably have better chances to buy it at 50% lower than current price but than at that point of time people already start shouting property pop but then again, is like wishing for miracle to happen. And now look back further even for the past few decade u notice what? Yeah, the cheaper price is always in the pass, not in the future.
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This kind of opinion totally doesn't make sense. rclxub.gif

Let's break down. OK?

QUOTE(kradun @ Mar 15 2013, 08:12 PM)
I vote for up. Waiting for the price to be adjusted in hot area is like wishing for miracle.


Miracles do happen! biggrin.gif

QUOTE(kradun @ Mar 15 2013, 08:12 PM)
Why? Simple because over the pass few years monitoring I only notice the overall price go up and then different is very obvious.


Past few years starting from when, 2008?

QUOTE(kradun @ Mar 15 2013, 08:12 PM)
Adjusted of 5%-10% compare to yesterday price will make u happy?
It should! RM1M adjusted 10% is savings of RM100k.
Who doesn't want to save 100k? Even 5% at 500K, the savings is 25K, enough to put downpayment on a nice car.

QUOTE(kradun @ Mar 15 2013, 08:12 PM)
I guess no because few years back u probably have better chances to buy it at 50% lower than current price but than at that point of time people already start shouting property pop but then again, is like wishing for miracle to happen. And now look back further even for the past few decade u notice what? Yeah, the cheaper price is always in the pass, not in the future.
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So far the time machine has not been invented yet. So, you can't go back 20 years to buy a DSTH in USJ for 200K, sorry.
We can only look to the future, which says: the signs are obvious for certain prop sectors, but if you wish to deny, no one can stop you. wink.gif
joeblows
post Mar 16 2013, 12:54 AM

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QUOTE(Hello_kitty 89 @ Mar 16 2013, 12:05 AM)
The think I hope is The gov control the property price which make more ppl "affordable" is by lowering the BLR rate. If so, win win solution for us. Lol. Stagnant but lower BLR set. More interesting. Hahaha. More ppl will buy for own stay. Wow
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Ha ha ha.........this is not gonna happen. We are already at record lows, plus all the banks profitability will take a big hit.

What's more likely is that BLR is gonna increase........
joeblows
post Mar 17 2013, 05:22 PM

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QUOTE(ay@m @ Mar 17 2013, 03:12 PM)
Yea... I think you better ask your lawyer friend when in malaysia history got property bubble....

Well, given the benefit of doubt... if there is really bubble happening in the past, did the price recover after that?

Key word is location... for good location I doubt it will drop to half of that value...

Cyprus is not malaysia... who knows ppl in msia damn rich with lots of savings... even if the price drop in half... ppl will just keep...

Never say never... but I doubt property in msia will be hit hard... even in 1997... the property price has already recovered and is on positive earning region...

smile.gif
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When in Malaysian history:

a) Did property increase 40-50% in just a few years (2009-2012)?
b) Did you see so many speculators rushing to queue to buy property?
c) Did you see so many "For Sale" signs right after a certain property VP?
d) Did you see so many "Bank Lelong" signs on traffic lights, lamp posts, forums, everywhere?
e) Did you hear of so many ordinary working joe taking loans to own 4, 5, 6 or even 7+ properties? Not business tycoon mind you, ta kung zhai?

Even in 1997 most people will tell you they didn't see so many "Bank Lelong" signs, despite many people having their house possessed by the Bank.

Draw your own conclusions lo.
joeblows
post Mar 17 2013, 10:44 PM

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QUOTE(ay@m @ Mar 17 2013, 10:07 PM)
ok la...when i read the reply...didn't really answer my question...but looks like your lawyer friend trying to imply that the property bubble is happening now, but did not happen in the past at all... well, until it burst... we won't really know if this is a bubble or not...

my main point here is if you can buy and hold over the years...long term... bubble or no bubble...it should be alright as the price sure UP... when you buy the property at the right location...

good points for discussion anyway...i'll try to open my eyes more for the questions you posted below...still haven't really observed much Bank Lelong signs around and For sale, there's always the subsale going on...
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To be fair, I don't think previous property bubbles were built on the back of debts so much as the current situation.

I agree that for period of 20 yrs or more.......you should be okay (maybe) but if you see the current market situation is so overheated, it may be worth your while to wait for awhile and buy in at a lower price - particularly for condo. For landed, still should be okay over long term.
joeblows
post Mar 18 2013, 11:19 AM

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QUOTE(KLsooner @ Mar 18 2013, 10:45 AM)
There are many deep pocket investors out of your imagination. I recently viewed a few "brand new" condo unit (out of 30+), with electric wire still hanging on the ceiling, but the condo had been VP and tenanted for more than 6 years.
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So:

a) How many investor has such deep pockets?
b) Condos now are much more expensive than 6 years ago
c) Will an "investor" eat such a huge loss (buy at a high price approaching RM1M and then see his investment produce 0 return for years while still paying to the bank)?

If you can see that a condo 6 years ago is lying vacant until today, why would you still be rushing to buy? Clearly demand has far outstripped supply. rclxub.gif
joeblows
post Mar 18 2013, 03:41 PM

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QUOTE(KLsooner @ Mar 18 2013, 02:48 PM)
c) there is no loss as long as appreciation price > loan interest but most deep pocket bought without borrowing.
Unless you rent it out or sell it off, any profit or loss is really on paper.

If the owner still hasn't managed to flip it off in 6 years, he must either be really really stubborn or the price hasn't appreciated beyond his purchase price in 6 years. Quite difficult to understand really.
joeblows
post Mar 18 2013, 04:36 PM

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QUOTE(ay@m @ Mar 18 2013, 04:05 PM)
what if the owner doesn't need to flip and bought the property for rental yield and keep for long term?
not necessary have to flip and sell in 6 years right?

i tried to read a book from Milan Doshi, one of the advice is buy and assume to keep like forever... i recall reading this statement...
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That all depends on the rental yield, right? And yes, that's actual property investing, while flipping is just speculation or gambling.

In previous times when you can get yields of 7+%, makes great sense.

Current times where you just hope your yield can cover your monthly installment, is already a dangerous sign. Some areas, rental yield can't even cover installment, and owner needs to top up.
joeblows
post Mar 18 2013, 05:03 PM

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QUOTE(ay@m @ Mar 18 2013, 04:34 PM)
hmm... no need statistic...but what about real case example?

Bought in 2007, apartment A, cost about RM160k for example. Now selling price listed around RM300k ... assuming there is downturn and price drop 40% or 50%...it will be back to the original buying price. just continue to rent it out and the rental is enough to cover the loan repayment...

so those who bought earlier before the property 'boom'... i don't see any reason to worry about the crash... if they are not going for capital appreciation gain...
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Why not wait till downturn and save that even 30-40%?

30% of 300K = 90K.

You've just saved yourself RM90k, adding in interest savings and everything it could be as much as RM150k over the course of 20-30 years.

That 150K you can use to treat yourself to a brand new nice Toyota Camry.

So, why not wait?
joeblows
post Mar 18 2013, 10:07 PM

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QUOTE(zuiko407 @ Mar 18 2013, 05:32 PM)
30% too little, make it 75%, that's isetan used to give during cny or Christmas
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Well let's put it this way, if prices drop enough, you may be looking for a job at Isetan as sales assistant, so don't be too cocky huh.

Not much market for property agent during downturn. biggrin.gif
joeblows
post Mar 18 2013, 10:13 PM

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QUOTE(kochin @ Mar 18 2013, 05:43 PM)
boss, your calculation is true IF there's a downturn.
alternatively, let's assume there's a 5% net yield out there.
if the guy bought it immediately before the downturn, do not forget to factor in the yield he would be getting from now till the downturn.
please also do not forget the potential cap app before the downturn.

if it's for own stay, please do not forget the $$$ he would have saved from paying rental to their present landlord.

guess the debate is still on when the downturn would strike and how severe.
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Is there really 5% net yield out there? Maybe.......maybe not. You could also be stuck with a unit that you can't sell after VP. Is it risk-reward ratio worth it boss? For me, I'd say no, but maybe because I don't really have huge amounts of capital, so I need to be a little cautious. Your situation may vary.

If renting and buying a place that is equivalent to your rent, well, that's whole different issue compared to buying for investment. Still, there's no harm in waiting for after elections - one or two months of rental just to see the state of the property market after elections is really not a difficult choice to make. It's certainly what I would advice - although of course others may have a different POV.

So I guess now majority is in agreement that there will be a slowdown and slight drop although disagree on which sectors most affected and how severe right? Because it seems like from your last question - I think you believe so too......


joeblows
post Mar 18 2013, 10:15 PM

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QUOTE(xander @ Mar 18 2013, 10:14 PM)
simple. toyota camry is a rly bad car for 150k
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No matter how bad you think a Camry is, I doubt you'd rather pay the seller and the bank interest rather than getting the car. wink.gif
joeblows
post Mar 18 2013, 10:19 PM

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QUOTE(kh8668 @ Mar 18 2013, 10:15 PM)
You thought you are playing monopoly?

Play in stock market with your same methods maybe la coz volatile enough.

Play in real estate with this, how many years you have in your life?
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It's precisely because we don't have that many years in our lives that one should be very very cautious about buying something on 20-30 yrs loan especially when price is at record high.

You would not wanna throw 30 years of your hard earn money down the toilet because too greedy and buy in when the market is high right.

Ask the Americans how it feels like to be working hard on 2 jobs to pay off your house mortgage but the value is actually underwater....
joeblows
post Mar 19 2013, 05:02 PM

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QUOTE(zuiko407 @ Mar 19 2013, 03:14 PM)
Mr Lawyer, That's the different you and me, I'll never ask how much money require for children education, bcos I already got it. I'll never ask which location I afford to stay, bcos I can almost choose any location in klang valley for own stay.
'Si' or 'not Si', I know better
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Fuiyoh! So rich property tycoon got so much time to TCSS on LYN property forum. Don't play play...
joeblows
post Mar 19 2013, 10:13 PM

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QUOTE(kingalfred9999 @ Mar 19 2013, 07:58 PM)
Correct, difficult to categorize...

In general observation, the price advertised, upon checking with agentS... tabled it over time ... inching up...

Bank valuation is typically lower or slightly lower... however.. my past experience of several subsale purchases..  all banker in the begining say.. "oh.. cannot meet the purchase price"... after replying them "oh like that ar... then nvm, i go other bank......" banker will reply "same2.. other bank also same valuer".... after few rings to several valuer the banker will call "Oh Mr X...can la.. but very difficult".

So far, my experience 100% loan application all meet valuation price... smile.gif


I can feel the tension of my friend who is yet to own her first prop... same goes for other friends (young and old)... all are searching high and low worrying things will not be affordable in the future..
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You said price going up bla bla bla........I can still accept.

But the words in bold - very fake. I know first hand very large amount of bank valuation FAR below asking price and agent asking buyer to top up cash. This is a fact and undeniable. Lets just say......fishy. hmm.gif
joeblows
post Mar 20 2013, 11:20 AM

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QUOTE(AMINT @ Mar 20 2013, 01:06 AM)
Like this is not fair bro. one owner may sell higher or lower than another. so how do you categorize this? I give u one example. I have been looking for a shoplot in one area (not in KV)
Lot A: asking price RM680K, Rental RM3300/monthly

Lot B (next to A only): asking price RM810K, Rental RM3600/monthly

Lot C (in another row but not so far from Lot A and B): asking price: RM600K, Rental RM2800/month

Bank valuation for all stucked at: RM600K.

So how do you categorize this? You will also pening, I guarantee you.

a) If I buy Lot A, would you say the market has dropped? Valuation is still below asking price. 85% loan only. But ROI is at 5.8%
b) If I buy Lot B, what is your comment pulak? Valuation is still below asking price., Same 85% loan. ROI is at 5.3%
c) If I buy Lot C, what is your comment pulak? Valuation is at par with asking price. Same 85% loan. ROI is at 5.6%
Not easy to categorize this part rclxub.gif None of the owners are willing to reduce the price because all said rental can cover installment. All are confident that rental can go even higher.so if one would wanna buy, asking price will be transacted price. owner's way or the highway.
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This is an interesting but quite unlikely scenario. You will very rarely find rental rates in a certain development diverging by as much as that. Comparing RM3.6K vs RM2.8K that is divergence of almost 30%, assuming all are similar type units (intermediate vs inter or corner vs corner). Even on location wise for commercial, unless the popularity is extremely uneven (ie shops facing main road all busy but shops behind extremely quiet).

But to your question:

a) Market has not dropped but you are paying over the odds of market price - ie bigger risk. If rents fall to the level of Lot C gradually, you lose yield (ROI). If you need to dispose of your property urgently (short sale), the odds of you finding a buyer are lower, as buyer would need to top up RM80K on top of 15% downpayment.
b) Same as A except even worse - in case of sale buyer would need to top up RM210K extra on top of 15% just for you to breakeven.
c) I would buy C (unless some external subjective factors like condition sucks or location really bad) - as the risk is all covered. You match the banks valuation. If rents drop to match the lower level, you are still unaffected, and if rents increase to match the level of Lots A or B you profit.

joeblows
post Mar 20 2013, 10:26 PM

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QUOTE(EddyLB @ Mar 20 2013, 07:15 PM)
I haven't increased one of my tenant's rental since 5 years ago. Although someone offered to rent the shop for 20% more. All because he is very prompt, and never never kacau/complain even 1 time unlike my other tenants. I will rather keep good tenant than having headache over 20% more rental. To me, it is not worth it.
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Yup, I admit I do not have much experience on commercial properties.

For rental payment promptly, one of my mentors recently taught me a "technique" that you can use (which my family has used it succesfully). Collect 1 years rental in advance via post-dated cheques, dated on 1st day of the month, but charge only slightly lower rental (ie 5%-10% below market).

Then deposit the cheques on the 1st of each month as landlord. Tenant only has to make sure sufficient money to clear the cheque during the 1st of the month in their account.

They won't cheat because if they bounce the cheque then they'll be blacklisted.

Of course this method only works with middle-class tenants. Those lower class tenants are different story la. Of course, the tenant can cancel the cheques too but that's an extra hassle to him/her.

Do you reckon this method can be used on commercial props?
joeblows
post Mar 21 2013, 11:39 AM

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QUOTE(axisresidence17 @ Mar 21 2013, 10:30 AM)
this is true to a certain extent..but if im a banker this is my opportunity to widen my market share if I have lots of reserve to spare..so u cud see that some banks are cautios some are quite agressive..so as a consumer its up to you to knock as many doors as you can till they let you in..i think as long as rental can cover your monthly payment you are good to go although some bank said the property is overpriced..else you wouldnt even take the time to look at that property in the first place arent you?
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As a banker you can propose any loan you want but your credit control and risk management side can also reject the loan based on certain criteria. This criteria used to be very loose in 2008-2011 but has gotten tighter in last 2 years due to BNM and banks getting worried.

Part of KPI (besides getting minimum number of loans per month) is to have low rejection by CC and Risk as well.

Most of the time they will still loan you some money as long as your financial is sound but the sum may be much lower than the asking price.
joeblows
post Mar 23 2013, 12:33 AM

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QUOTE(agentdiary @ Mar 22 2013, 11:35 PM)
Perhaps Governor Zeti has this chart too.

user posted image
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This chart is wrong.

Public debt-to-GDP ratio is only at 53% in Malaysia.
Household debt-to-GDP ratio is only around 65%.

Although I'm not in up up up camp, I don't think I agree with this.
joeblows
post Mar 23 2013, 12:36 AM

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Interesting Read:

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Source

Household debt climbing into the danger zone. 80% is red zone.
joeblows
post Mar 30 2013, 11:52 PM

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Wah.......so syiok. I go to JKT for work just one week and 40+ pages of arguing on a new thread.

Congrats to tat on his new house. smile.gif

Am I disappointed he bought? No, why would I be. I think price is a little high at 600+ psf but to each his own.

Doesn't change my view one bit.

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