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 Private Retirement Scheme Started?

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simplesmile
post Dec 18 2012, 10:44 AM

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I cannot decide whether to invest in:
1. Hwang IM: No sales charge, but higher management fee, or
2. Public Mutual: High sales charge, but lower management fee.

Which one would you choose and why?

Stats according to this link:
http://www.ppa.my/index.php/providers-and-...fee-comparison/
simplesmile
post Dec 18 2012, 04:52 PM

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Thanks for reply. I think I'll take the PM PRS scheme. The deciding factor is the length of time I buy into the fund. I'm 34 and it's another 25 years before I reach retirement age of 60. So, having a lower management fee definitely is more advantage.

QUOTE(poolcarpet @ Dec 18 2012, 12:54 PM)
HwangIM : 0% sales charge, 1.8% annual management fee, 0.04% annual trustee fee, 0.04% PPA fee = total 1.88% pa
PM: 3% sales charge, 1.5% annual management fee, 0.06% annual trustee fee, 0.04% PPA fee = total 1.6% pa

Difference pa is 0.28%, but with PM you have a disadvantage of -3% at the beginning. My reasoning:

1. If I think PM will give me better returns than HwangIM over 10 years, then I'll go for PM cause after about 11 years, PM's extra sales charge would be equalized by HwangIM's higher annual fees.
2. If you have a long way to go to retirement, e.g. >15 years, maybe can consider PM cause in the long run it is cheaper than HwangIM. Remember whatever $ you put in cannot be touched till 55 so the lower the fee the better - this is assuming the sales charge/annual management fee remains the same for the next >15 years.
3. Having said the above, you can also switch anytime to different providers subject to RM25 (HwangIM/PM) +RM25 (PPA).

Personally I'll go for HwangIM for now - hopefully this can pressure PM and other providers to lower their sales charge tongue.gif and also hopefully HwangIM will lower their management fee in future smile.gif

Disclaimer: I am NOT a financial expert or consultant. These are just based on my layman understanding.
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simplesmile
post Dec 18 2012, 10:34 PM

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By the way, why CIMB Principal have Class A and Class C? I see Class C has lower sales charge but only 0.1% higher management fee. Is it up to individual to choose between Class A and Class C?
simplesmile
post Dec 18 2012, 10:48 PM

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QUOTE(turbopips @ Dec 18 2012, 10:46 PM)
The annual management fee difference is marginal. U should consider which fund u think will bring better returns. Considering all equal n management fee is yr sole concern, then u should buy hwang in the first year, then switch to another fund with lower fees, eg public mutual in year two. With this u only pay rm25 extra transfer fee but u have saved much more in entrance fees.  thumbup.gif
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But, if I buy Hwang IM in first year, and when I "transfer" to PM second year, besides being charged the RM25 transfer fee, wouldn't I also be charged 3% by PM for buying into their scheme?
simplesmile
post Dec 20 2012, 08:40 PM

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OK. A few days ago I posted that I was considering between PM and Hwang. And then I decided that in the long term, PM would win over Hwang. So decided to take Hwang then. After that I researched some more on CIMB and found that it has lower fees.

So in the end, yesterday I bought CIMB. The package I bought is the Asia ex-Japan.
Reason why I chose this fund is because It invests in companies with significant businesses in Asia. I wanted to diversify away from Malaysia, hence this fund.

But the masterfund management fee is 1.8%. So, the management fee could be slightly higher, depending on how much cash is held. I also expect this fund to have higher volatility (hence higher capital gain or loss).
simplesmile
post Dec 21 2012, 11:04 AM

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QUOTE(wbk @ Dec 21 2012, 10:53 AM)
i tot the management fees that need to be paid yearly is for the PRS, should not include the masterfund? anyway, i am interested to investment in CIMB PRS Asia ex Japan as well since the masterfund seems to be doing quite well last year. And the sales charge and management fees is much lower.

question: how we do qualify for Class C investor?
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You can choose whether to invest in Class A or Class C. It's your choice. I chose Class C of course.
Here's an explanation about the management fee is charged. I think it's a good explanation.
http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...post&p=56909384

This post has been edited by simplesmile: Dec 21 2012, 11:05 AM
simplesmile
post Dec 21 2012, 12:01 PM

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QUOTE(wbk @ Dec 21 2012, 11:14 AM)
eh.. but this article about feeder fund talks elaborate differently. It says we only pay the management fees at the feeder fund, fund manager of the feeder fund will use a portion of the fees collected to pay the management fees of the target fund. a bit confused now.

http://www.cimb-principal.com.my/upload/Sh...der%20Funds.pdf
Correct.
page 18 first paragraph. "..... Additionally, the management fee is to be charged at only one level in either the target fund or the feeder fund."
This means the management fee could either be 1.8% or 1.5%. And since the target fund management fee is higher, we can bet that this will be the management fee charged.

Example, Feeder fund holds 10% cash and invests 90% into the Target Fund.
The 10% cash will be charged 1.5% management fee.
While the Target Fund will charge the Feeder Fund 1.8% fee, so this means the 90% that is invested into the target fund will attract a 1.8% fee.

Total fee = (10% x 1.5%) + (90% x 1.8%) = 0.15% + 1.62% = 1.77%
simplesmile
post Oct 14 2013, 02:28 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Oct 13 2013, 06:35 PM)
EPF, we know principal is secured, as well as return (just matter how much, low or high), but with UT, principal is not guaranteed, it can make a good profit as well as loss one.

What if, when retired time, UT register a huge loss?
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I don't think you need to redeem 100% of the balance in the UT at the same time.
If when retire the UT register a huge loss, then :
i) don't redeem any. Wait for the UT to rebound, then only redeem. Or,
ii) redeem bit by bit while waiting for the UT to rebound. Hopefully the unredeemed balance will recover in value.
However, if you're investment savvy then you could redeem all and invest into assets with higher and faster potential to recover.
simplesmile
post Oct 14 2013, 02:42 PM

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QUOTE(MNet @ Oct 13 2013, 05:55 PM)
hwang peform better
http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/HWPRSSF:MK
Hwang ytd = +16.36%
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Amazing. Despite the 1.8% management fee, it can still beat all the other PRS funds.
simplesmile
post Oct 14 2013, 02:48 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Oct 14 2013, 02:38 PM)
i) if no rebound, wait until die?  biggrin.gif
ii) What is your feel, if you have contribute 20-30 years every month into a so called "retirement fund", then ended the money worth less than what you have put in?
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i) given enough time, then it is likely to rebound. Unless it's Bernie Maddoff fund.
ii) Not looking to contribute 20-30 years. I'm only going to contribute for 10 years. After that, not contribute anymore because no more tax relief. Investing in UT require a very long time Horizon. 15 years or more.
And between UT and ETF, I'd rather invest in ETF. It's just that Government only give tax relief for investing in PRS, and the PRS buy only UT.
simplesmile
post Oct 14 2013, 03:25 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Oct 14 2013, 03:02 PM)
i) Another 20 years? Many may not have this. Time doesn't guarantee a fund will rebound. Some funds may remain poor throughout.

ii) That's why I said, if buying UT can consider as "retirement fund", then many already have it. So now I own some equities, this is also my "retirement fund"?

PRS invest in UT.
UT invest in equities.

So invest in equities = retirement fund?  tongue.gif
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i) A fund does not need to rebound back to your original entry price for you to make a profit. When the fund falls 50%, then you buy more ... to lower your average purchase price. But do this only if you believe the underlying fundamental of the fund will recover.
ii) Very few people can consistently earn 20+ percent return. However, when a person invests in PRS, he gets a tax relief. And for people in the high tax bracket, this kind of "return" is considered high return. And the investor can get this high return for not only 1 year, but 10 years.
Your analogy of whether buying equities directly is considered "retirement fund" or not, I think it depends on the reason you buy the fund in the first place.
If you buy equities because you enjoy the thrill of speculation, then I consider it a "gambling or entertainment fund".
If you buy equities because you want to get the dividend to replace employment income, then I consider it a "retirement fund".
simplesmile
post Oct 14 2013, 04:23 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Oct 14 2013, 03:39 PM)
i) if the fund doesn't recover, it just means "double down" the loss.
Not every fund must be making profit over the long term.
Typically example, those local funds that offers China related UT.
Many average down, and double average down, and now what happen?

Buy more when the fund fall 50%, isn't it like "play fire" with retirement money?  sweat.gif

ii) the tax relief is not unlimited. In fact only Rm3000, even at highest tax bracket 26%, it is Rm780 only. 10 years Rm7800.

Like that (if invest in equities aims to get passive income), then many do have retirement fund already, that's why I do not see much attractiveness in PRS.

In fact, for me, EPF is better choice.
Guaranteed principal + return (may not as high as UT but it guaranteed the capital and return)
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Oh well, I guess we have different views. No right or wrong. Just different approaches. Cheers.

 

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