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English Clubs Liverpool FC- The Kop Talk 2012, Liverpool 0-2 Arsenal - 2nd defeat!

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vreis
post Aug 24 2012, 09:46 AM

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QUOTE(dillonyong @ Aug 24 2012, 09:38 AM)
I firmly believe Dempsey is coming and Sahin's deal is going to be confirmed as well, hopefully today.

Dempsey is already doing all the monkey tricks because Fulham is holding out for a higher valuation. Liverpool is not willing to pay over the odds for him hence he is requesting to be transfer listed and skipping trainings. First time I see a player so determined to join Liverpool that he would almost do anything. smile.gif
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Thats becos none of the CL teams are in for him & he realised he's running out of time to get into a competitive team.
vreis
post Aug 24 2012, 09:48 AM

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QUOTE(rushmode @ Aug 24 2012, 09:41 AM)
to be honest the played like crap yesterday. no disrespect to Hearts, but our team make team looks like world beaters. Their goalie rarely tested by our players.

can't really blame Borini and forwards because he midfield just doesn't work at all. 20 passes amongst the CM and fullbacks in own half then pass back to Reina. then hoofs the ball forward making it easy to intercept by Heart players. when we do trying to pass forward, the passes are wasteful. Shelvey having a bad game amongst them all. like a headless chicken out there.

we have good prospect in Sterling. the lad still young and lightweight but he will be boss in couple of years. Borini while not effective in this game... it looks like he is trying hard. he needs Suarez and creative players to play amongst him.

btw, we can start making a counter on how many times we hit the goal post this season. biggrin.gif
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Frm the highlight the only bright spot seems to be young Sterling. Hope BR can manage him properly...seen to much prospects end up in lower league or outta footie completely
vreis
post Aug 24 2012, 09:50 AM

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QUOTE(farisq @ Aug 24 2012, 09:48 AM)
Reminds me of Mascherano determination to join Barca few years back
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yeah, & we all know how we felt back then. Key player wanting to go & went on strike????? WTF shakehead.gif They're pro, shouldn't do this kinda thing, its not like to club don't pay him salary shakehead.gif shakehead.gif

vreis
post Aug 24 2012, 10:14 AM

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QUOTE(dillonyong @ Aug 24 2012, 10:06 AM)
Well. Imagine yourself working in Karusha Private Limited as a Senior Marketing Manager and Microsoft International is offering you the position of General Manager and Karusha is doing everything to stop you from going. They hold out your resignation citing that the decision maker is not around, they find excuses to fine you, they hold you responsible for many things suddenly and they refuse to offer you a better deal. smile.gif

What will happen? You'll be b****ing about them in Lowyat forum about "injustice". LOL.

Players are no different. Everyone is greedy for ambition or money. You think just because they are professional footballer they are going to swear loyalty to their club. You are mistaken. Clubs also dont show loyalty to their players most of the time. You cant blame them.
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Well imagine u working in Microsoft with 5 years contract. Suddenly Apple Inc wish to offer u better "prospects". Do you go on strike just to force Microsoft to accept your resignation?
Why would you signed a 5 years contract when you can opt for yearly rolling contract? Job security rite? & why would Microsoft bowed to Apple Inc when its perfectly their right to safeguard their own interest unless apple Inc pays compensation to Microsoft.
Club & player both safe guard their own interest, to go on strike to force thru a move is just unethical bordering unprofessional. What if RM come calling the year after he joins us, goes on strike again???
vreis
post Aug 24 2012, 10:32 AM

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QUOTE(dillonyong @ Aug 24 2012, 10:20 AM)
I take it that you are asking my opinion. If my dream is to one day join Apple Inc, yes I will go on strike. It's my dream company. How often do you get this chance that Apple comes knocking on your door and giving you a good deal?

You can beg to differ to justify your own thoughts. It's my opinion anyway.
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& that is what we called as unprofessional. If you are angling/hoping for a better company to come calling, then don't sign multi years contract, simple isn't it? Because you are greedy to sign a 5 years contract, when apple comes calling mid term, you goes ard crying for release from contract? Once signed you are bound by the contract. I don't see why the club/company have to cave in to your demand. So unless Apple or whatever big company buy you out from the contract, I don't see the the need for Microsoft to entertain your wants & whims. Afterall you shud have think properly of all pros & cons before signing a long term contract.
If you go on strike, I'm sure Microsoft would take legal action against you & it won't paint a good picture of you in professional line. Same can be said for footballer, they want want to be governed by labour law, I don't see why they should be exception to the rules as they wish.
vreis
post Aug 24 2012, 11:02 AM

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QUOTE(dillonyong @ Aug 24 2012, 10:41 AM)
If Microsoft demands for 500k to buy out your contract when your value is just 150k and Apple make a bid of 220K, of course it holds you back. You will have to go on strike and it's up to them to decide whether they want to keep an unhappy employee or accept the offer from Apple.

Did I not say that people are greedy for their ambition or for money? With your level of integrity and loyalty, I think you should be politician.

I will vote for you. smile.gif
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Then from Microsoft perspective, Apple is seriously undervalues their asset. Thats their prerogative as you are under contract to them. As I said, the probs started when you signed multi year contract with a company thats not your first choice. There'll be no prob if you opt for yearly rolling contract.
Well its a matter a perspective, you chose to see from players view, I chose to view from both sides.


QUOTE(chitchat @ Aug 24 2012, 10:48 AM)
Is easier to be said than done in football, an unhappy player will result in half hearted commitment on the pitch than wont win u games, u drop him on the bench, he can still cause disharmony in dressing room, u drop him to reserve, basically u are losing the player money value and paying him doing nothing. So in the end the club have to give in and let him go as long as they are getting the right offer. Players always have the upper hand here.
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Yeah, its a delicate balance but it can be done as shown by Spurs chairman Levy in their yearly Modric saga biggrin.gif
But it also shown can't be done by Wenger in their yearly key players sale laugh.gif
Its a matter of whether the club can afford to risk the value of the said player/s. Spurs have upper hand since Modric can't do nuts as he has multi years left in the contract. Either he rot in few years in reserves or play his best hoping the next year Levy relented.
In Dempsey case, if its up to me, I'll let the player rot in the reserves or youngsters group since he cant command much fees anyway seeing his age & contract duration.
& this is where the Anfield hierachy failed miserably, at least previous ones. wink.gif
vreis
post Aug 24 2012, 11:07 AM

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QUOTE(Petre @ Aug 24 2012, 10:59 AM)
wats this involve microsof and aple pulak...

i dont think aple or anyone would want a badly behaving employee. if you can do it to them, you might one day do it to me. employee loyalty counts in organizations that value them. just my thought anyway

but i do agree with chitchat. but i think dempsey should be more professional. he has a contract to play ball, so he should honor it. if we really want him, we should just table a bid. player should never get involved other than to say yes i want to move, but not playing?

people say player power is too much these days, but i think player power is too little, hence such things happen. in a free economy, players should be given the right to choose. if he dishonor the contract, then he should compensate/pay/buyout the contract. that will be more fair to all parties

what you think?
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Probs always are different parties have different valuations, all wanting to get the best deals for themselves. Also most of them wont pay compensation but expect club to bowed to their demands like the players mentioned below.
Players like Essien/Masch/Tevez/Dempsey are just simply unethical & unprofessional but still they're hot commodities once in the market even with their attitude. so clubs have to shoulder blames as well.
vreis
post Aug 24 2012, 11:09 AM

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QUOTE(dillonyong @ Aug 24 2012, 11:04 AM)
As much as I love Liverpool, we are at fault here, my friend. He was valued at 7.5 million by Fulham and they are ready to sell him anytime. Liverpool thinks that it is too much for a player that has only 1 year left on his contract and already 29 years old. Rumors has it that they offered Adam and Spearing to knock the valuation down but was rejected as Fulham is holding out for 7.5 million cash transfer.

We wanted to bargain unprofessionally and the best way is to turn the head of the player. This tactic is used by Real Madrid all the time.
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QUOTE(Petre @ Aug 24 2012, 11:07 AM)
yes i fully agree we are at fault. dempsey made the issue complicated by not playing. now both clubs locked in cold war over the player. probably this deal may come in the 11th hour of the last day of the window
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These kinda tactics are widely used in order to get their targets. Its good when we're turning the heads of other clubs players but once we're in their shoes, it left a bitter taste in the mouth.
vreis
post Aug 24 2012, 11:22 AM

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QUOTE(Petre @ Aug 24 2012, 11:12 AM)
be a top club, then we will be predator and not the prey biggrin.gif
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Easier said than done unless you are Rm or Barca. Even top Italians club lost their appeal nowadays.
On side note no matter how top you are, some players will want to ply their trade in Spain esp players from latin countries, maybe culture???

QUOTE(dillonyong @ Aug 24 2012, 11:16 AM)
That was exactly what I was trying to tell you. Reality. Players and clubs are realistic and mean. They are not always going to be your average hero in your TV when you watch them week in and week out. They are people and they are management. All think of the best interest to themselves.

Liverpool also wanted to push Caroll out earlier. Look at what they were doing to him. At the end of the day, you sometimes have to take care of your own interest.
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I agree with that. & Carroll also has the right to reject those offers , & rejected he did right? Thats where contract comes into play.
I can't imagine or even believe that a player can be sold against his will. Who's signature is it at the end of the day??? Or did the club point a gun asking him to sign contract with new club? even then he can annul the contact citing duress.
vreis
post Aug 24 2012, 11:58 AM

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QUOTE(rushmode @ Aug 24 2012, 11:49 AM)
yes, in the end the player have rights to reject any offer because they have contract. they can stay put during entire duration of the contract and the club can't do anything about it. but club can terminate the contract and reimburse the player.. same like what they do when sacking a manager.
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Most likely club don't do this & prefer to sell. Afterall there're no benefit for them to write off an "investment". Unless player accept significantly lower payoff or there's team salary cap like in NBA where its the norm to waived players to escape luxury tax, I see no point in club sack players.
vreis
post Aug 29 2012, 12:10 PM

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QUOTE(rushmode @ Aug 29 2012, 11:50 AM)
I'm not sure I'm reading this right.. BR did well making Swansea stay up the premiership last season but thats about it. Kenny has proved he is a great manager. BR yet to do that..

Its too early to praise BR that highly.. dont get carried away.
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Actually I'd like to know how he'd come to that conclusion, basing on the facts BR taking notes everytime cameras panned to him?? whistling.gif
2 yrs in mgt & he's tactically & technically astute compared to veterans....to quote him, Oh Pleaseeeee.....
vreis
post Aug 29 2012, 02:54 PM

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QUOTE(Yluxion @ Aug 29 2012, 01:31 PM)
Football has evolves so much these days. The ball is getting lighter & those fancy boots & sports wear. These days how often you still see top teams, playing with 2 strikers and deploy wide wingers to send crosses in? I hardly think of any, even on the national teams. (Newcastle maybe?)

Yes. KD has excelled and achieved so much during the 80's and early 90's, but it is the present and future we're talking about now. Last season it's KD charisma & the ability to motivate players to play their hearts out that got us through. Wondering why we fought so hard last season just to churned out a marginal win? worst goalscoring record on our own turf since 1903? Not to say the amount of transfer fund he has been given by FSG. It's evident enough he is not up to the modern day tasks.

While BR, his team selection, tactical deployment, players he trying to bring in make much more sense to me.
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Football evolves but only in diet/training. Otherwise its still same old kicking game with crosses, headers, shootings. Whatever said about formation/tactical/technical are for argument sake only since how much tactics/formation can evolves? afterall no matter how modern it gets, its still 10 outfield players + goalie.
Do you even know the Magical Magyars already played a high pressing game with a lone striker in Puskas with outside forwards flanking him ala 4-3-3 morph into 4-1-2-2-1/4-5-1? Thats like 50 yrs ago so its not like the current "in" formation is anything new. The formation is constantly recycled with times gone by. 20 yrs from now, most likely 4-4-2 will be the "in" formation again.
Point is every mgr have their own preferences. to say BR is tactically/technically superior to Kd or even Woy is far fetched. KD & Woy have their own ideas & they stick to them but it doesn't mean they're tactically inept. Nor just becos BR footballing ideas are pleasing to eyes meant he's superior. He's still have much to prove.
Red nose is one of the old school mgr but he still thrives even now. Key is he changed his formation when his team reached end of cycle & depending on the players & coaches he brought in. KD proves he equally adept in changing formation when he used 3-3-3-1/3-2-3-2 at times. Its just that he believes in his favored formation, but it didn't work out. So that proves he's tactically inept just becos its not working out in 1.5 season?

QUOTE(imin @ Aug 29 2012, 01:52 PM)
walcott's crossing are terrible
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actually his decisions making in final ball are terrible.

QUOTE(Petre @ Aug 29 2012, 02:03 PM)
no one mention gaston ramirez? walcott... err...

meanwhile, seeing how sterling had done, i'm very much keen to see how suso and pacheco can do. age is not a problem, as long as you have the determination to do well and keen to learn like they mention in the BBC post match analysis, the first team is younger now
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Somehow not sure the brightest of his class seemed to stagnant & unable to progress well. Pacheco, me think is gone case like Mellor/Sinama/Nemeth since he cant even make any noteworthy contribution be it Reserves or back on loan to a Spanish team.
vreis
post Aug 29 2012, 03:32 PM

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QUOTE(hfi @ Aug 29 2012, 03:28 PM)
No option to buy. If want to buy, it will have to be a seperate negotiation and that's if Real decide to even sell. Loaning players are not necessarily a bad thing. The likes of Real, AC Milan and even the mancs have loaned players before. It's a short term solution but still a solution nonetheless. In this instance, we just have to swallow our pride and go with what's best for the club. Imo it's a rather good deal. Not only we signed a good player, we also prevented Arsenal from getting the player. Hopefully, he turns out good for us.
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AC now is a cheapo teams trying to get players that they sold high for peanuts, well they've been for a few season now. & yet we even fell for them & even entertaining their thoughts to get players for peanuts once more. shakehead.gif
vreis
post Aug 30 2012, 11:37 AM

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QUOTE(Petre @ Aug 30 2012, 10:35 AM)
when is the last day? usually a lot of drama happen. might see a few surprises happen at liverpool. hopefully good surprises smile.gif
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31st...our time will be ard 7/8am on the 1st
vreis
post Aug 30 2012, 12:19 PM

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QUOTE(dillonyong @ Aug 30 2012, 12:02 PM)
By the way, Caroll is not included in the squad against Hearts. Looks like his career is over. Another big chunk of money in the dustbin.
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Think its either backgrd negotiations is going on with a team thats in Europe to prevent cup tied or BR really want to force him out
vreis
post Sep 3 2012, 11:13 AM

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QUOTE(reehdus @ Sep 3 2012, 10:42 AM)
Actually I agree with some of the reasons brought up by the owners as well. We shouldn't be paying for stopgap solutions like Dempsey/Drog/Owen. These guys have at the most 2-3 years left in them, compared to the rest of the team. We have so much cover for both Carra and Gerrard because they're on their last legs. Similarly, we don't want an aging strike force, whether or not they are good. The philosophy Fenway has been showing is a good one, build from the ground up with young talent, and as much as it pains me that we're screwed atm, it's something worth looking at if you ask me.
We didn't buy carroll for 35M for him to have his touch in all our goals. We bought him to score them.
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u missed out on they will buy young & re-sell for higher value. That means irregardless of whether we're challenging, if there's offer big enough, they will sell. No exception. From day one they already stated this.
Unless we have a great academy or scouting, in the future we'll keep on losing key players like the gooners.

vreis
post Sep 3 2012, 02:41 PM

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QUOTE(dillonyong @ Sep 3 2012, 02:31 PM)
And I forgot, we also got Harry Kewell instead of Damien Duff in 2003 (when Duff was at his peak). Then we make the same mistakes in signing Stewart Downing instead of Ashley Young last year. History of stupidity does repeat itself in the Anfield Red. sad.gif
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Kewell cost 5mil, Duff went for 15mil to a Russian team...so its no brainer we go for Kewell considering he's also at his peak that time. Who knew we'll end up with lame duck tongue.gif
at the very least we trumped em mancs for the Kewell deal laugh.gif

QUOTE(maranello55 @ Sep 3 2012, 02:31 PM)
coz we think the those players were not big enuff for the club
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More like we're not big enough to afford them doh.gif
vreis
post Sep 3 2012, 02:51 PM

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QUOTE(dillonyong @ Sep 3 2012, 01:25 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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That article referred to RM signing Becks instead of him(Eto'o) from Mallorca mah as RM have 50% right for him. Nothing to do with us.
Not sure abt Ronaldinho case but maybe it had to do the English Non-EU work permit since that time I'm sure Ronaldinho not yet satisfied the 75% national team appearance.
Sinama & Le Tallec, well they were bought with future in mind so no guarantee they'll becomes world beater but they were world beating potential that time.
Read Anelka agent aka his brother was hawking him to clubs even when we were trying to work out a deal with him, hence Parry pulled the plug on the deal.
Diouf, Diao & Cheyrou read Carroll, Downing, Henderson. Nuff said.

QUOTE(Cloud0890 @ Sep 3 2012, 02:21 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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Then RB was given a choice to sign ONLY 1 player, so he opted for a more pressing need.
vreis
post Sep 3 2012, 03:18 PM

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QUOTE(dillonyong @ Sep 3 2012, 03:10 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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the serial spitster cost 10 mil la, not 20mil. but yeah, our scouts & nego teams sucks doh.gif

QUOTE(carloz28 @ Sep 3 2012, 03:12 PM)
We have to move forward. No point reminiscing our past failures.

Signing a player has always been a gamble and ultimately it's the manager's responsibility to mold them into the team. Houllier and Benitez had their fair share of good and bad signings, but at least they had silverware to show to compensate for their poor signings.
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yeah, this very much sums it all

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