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 Magic Find Increases Quality of Rares, not just the drop chance

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TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 13 2012, 01:25 PM, updated 14y ago

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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/game/guide/item...ment#magic-find

QUOTE
Item quality is checked in the following order:

Legendary
6-affix rare
5-affix rare
4-affix rare
2-affix rare
1-affix rare
magic item

Using the above example, when your roll ‘misses’ a higher-level item quality, the item generator proceeds to the next lowest item quality in the chain (in this case, checking to see if you got a 6-affix rare, then checking for a 5-affix rare, and so on). Your magic find bonus applies to each roll. If the same monster has a 10% chance to drop a 5-affix rare item and you have 50% magic find, you now have a 15% chance to get a 5-affix rare item.
bottom line1: Magic Find also increases the quality of the rare, not only just drop chance
bottom line2: Farming A1 with 200+MF will get far higher quality AND quantity of rares than A3 low-MF

I always thought MF only increases chance of rare, turns out it also increases quality of the rare by increasing the chance you roll higher number of affixes.

CONCLUSION: Fuuck Act 3, just farm Act 1 or 2 with 200+MF

This post has been edited by Currylaksa: Jul 13 2012, 01:44 PM
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 13 2012, 01:41 PM

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QUOTE(deodorant @ Jul 13 2012, 01:36 PM)
I thought this was already posted by ... somebody before? I been reading for quite a while d in LYN that magic find increases chance of more affixes too.
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I don't think so. This new game guide change only happened 2 days ago, it's unlikely people knew before then.

The old finding on Reddit was that it increase drop chance, and it did not affect iLvl.
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 13 2012, 01:49 PM

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QUOTE(statikinetic @ Jul 13 2012, 01:44 PM)
Still dependent on iLvl which droprate is set.
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Act 1-2 still wins, even if Act 3 has more iLvl 63 drops, because

1. MF increases basic drop rate of rares,
2. MF also increases chance the rare has more affix

This double multiplicative makes Act 1 drop higher quality in general.
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 13 2012, 01:53 PM

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QUOTE(gladfly @ Jul 13 2012, 01:50 PM)
+1.

Roll a level 63 rare with 200 dps..give me 10 affix also it will chiak sai.

But seriously....(without any concrete data at all...)...I doont feel MF improves a drop? Why..cause I used to farm with about 250% MF (5NV) ..getting lots of yellow but 99% crap. But I have now switched to survival build with about 145% MF..and you know what.... 3 legendaries in 1 day (but useless also)..and some nice stacked rares. So MF really helps?? rclxub.gif  rclxub.gif
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You're only having a small luck spike, which doesn't actually reflect real long term chance.

Try farming 1 month straight with 250% MF and then another 1 month straight with 145% MF.

QUOTE(The Amateur Working Bee @ Jul 13 2012, 01:51 PM)
oh curry, another thing thou, from what ive observed, grand smith plans only drop on act3/4, so yeah...
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eh I got a exalted grand manitou plan from Act2

This post has been edited by Currylaksa: Jul 13 2012, 01:55 PM
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 13 2012, 02:20 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Jul 13 2012, 01:58 PM)
have to look at the level of.drops based on the acts too...

so if comparing a high mf run in act 1 vs a low mf run in act3/4 then:-
farming in act 3/4 will get u generally more better gear since more lvl63s. .. while farming in act 1 will get u more lower level junk  but if get lvl63 items there is a good chance it will be better.
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Wrong.
QUOTE
Act 1-2 still wins, even if Act 3 has more iLvl 63 drops, because

1. MF increases basic drop rate of rares,
2. MF also increases chance the rare has more affix

This double multiplicative makes Act 1 drop higher quality in general.
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 13 2012, 05:56 PM

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QUOTE(DrLaboo @ Jul 13 2012, 03:53 PM)
it's random..
my friend NV5 = 270 MF% farm at Act 3.. for hours already

1. he fight elite, call me join ingame..
2. i at RMAH sell my thing..
3. accept invitation, join the game
4. TP straight to him
5. he already killed the elite
6. i got 32% MF and din hit the enemy
7. i see chocolate2 shield and 1 rare
8. dafuq~ identified~ STORMSHIELD 24% block
9. my friend rageeeeeeeeeee... "ffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuu!"
10. i leave game put RMAH pipu bought AUD69.99

MF% LJ  MF%
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normally kelefeh and noobs have better luck than tryhards laugh.gif
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 13 2012, 06:09 PM

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QUOTE(DrLaboo @ Jul 13 2012, 06:00 PM)
its random liao
whole bullshit MF% theory can gtfo liao
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Nope. People have done testing with large sample sizes and posted in Reddit.

You just got lucky, I suspect the completely unproven kelefeh theory laugh.gif
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 13 2012, 06:50 PM

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QUOTE(DrLaboo @ Jul 13 2012, 06:23 PM)
lulz, it's my luck then..
but happened alot to me already.. 
nice rare item even during NV stack 1-2 (dun wear any MF% gears, since my current gears let me farm anywhere in inferno solo) laugh.gif
normally Act 3 is the best.. chances for ilvl63 gears appear are of coz better.. and monsters are easier to kill than Act 4.. =)
and those items ilvl63 dropped in Act 3 normally all can be sold at AH min 100k/pcs
farming at Act 1 & Act 2 just boring and the loot sucks laugh.gif
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Incorrect. The double multiplicative effect of MF on item quality and drop rate would make MF A1 drop better loot than non-MF A3.

You're just a very blessed guy. laugh.gif
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 13 2012, 10:37 PM

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QUOTE(nightshade_nova @ Jul 13 2012, 07:49 PM)
Eh dont regret la.
Im pretty sure the mobs on higher level have higher chance to drop 6 affix.
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No. Higher level doesn't increase chance to drop 6 affix, MF does. yawn.gif

It just has higher base chance to drop higher ilvls. But that advantage can be evened with MFing lower acts.
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 14 2012, 11:01 AM

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QUOTE(DrLaboo @ Jul 14 2012, 12:12 AM)
this one i agree..
high MF% guarantee quality item?
bullshit  laugh.gif
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Do you understand what is probability? Guarantee =/= higher chance sweat.gif

MF gives you higher chance, it has been proven by studies published. Blizzard also already published in game guide that MF affects affix quanitity of rare.

QUOTE(nightshade_nova @ Jul 14 2012, 02:59 AM)
The theory that mf in act 1 is better than no mf on act 3 only holds true if the base affix drop rates of elite are same throughout the acts.
Pretty sure it is not.

If I ask you how much base 6 affix drop rate for act 1 and for act 3, would you know?

Speculatively, the numbers could even be as extreme as for act 1 you have a base chance of 0.75%, and with 300%mf  youd get it up to 3%, while in act 3 you may already have a base of 4%
What youre proposing require base chance of act1 to be as high as act 3 which is in a perfect world, act 1 elites chance to drop 6 prop is 4% and same as act 3.Pretty damn sure that isnt the case.

If you approach from dev pov, youd ideally want a ratio which scales with the max mf across all act so it all ties up.
Thats why act 1 and act 2 was also buffed when act 3 was buffed.They dont simply put out random numbers.(hint:if youre a nerd, you can investigate the ratio using the buffed numbers from the changelog and slide in the max mf somewhere in the calculations too  wink.gif )

Youd want to design the game to be somewhat like this:(just hypothetically)
Farming effectiveness of Act 1 with max mf = Act 2 with half the max mf = Act 3 without mf

So in a sense, a player ultimate goal would be farming in act 3 with a little mf by sacrificing offense/defense here and there.

The priority of the design should be that you sacrifice offensive/defensive stats in favor of mf, and there should be a threshold of which you are able to do so, which mf swapping completely destroys as you can go full brunt and still get the benefits of max mf+high ilvl drop rate+high base affix drop rate.

Thats why mf swap is so prevalent in act 3 and will be nerfed as it goes above the limiting shackle of drop rate ratio.
The multiplicative nature of mf means right now, act 3 swappers ARE WAY beyond the end of the spectrum in terms of drop rate.
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The problem is there is no finding that Act 3 has higher base affix count. The only study that is ever proven is that Act 3 has high drop chance of ilvl 63, and that's all. I'm in the camp that Act 3 drops have the same standard affix tier and lower Acts.

As a statistically pointless anecdote, I have been farming Act 3 regularly yet my earnings far lags behind my friend who farms Act 1 with 250MF, a factor of 10 to 1.

If you're still interested, a Reddit post is up for ongoing studies on the effects of MF on Affix count, probably on Goblins.
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 14 2012, 02:49 PM

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QUOTE(nightshade_nova @ Jul 14 2012, 11:42 AM)
Meh.Cant find any study on affix count, just this
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/57939-ongo...stical-insight/

Even if there were any study, Im 100% sure that they will find higher act have higher base affix drop rate,
unless blizzard dev are total morons and somehow make them the same across all acts.
You can't be 100% sure of something that is pulled out of nowhere and completely unproven. You are basing everything on your own opinion that non-MF A3 should better than MF A1, out of some idea of "fairness".

You have to explain why they would be morons to have the same roll table accross the board. Act 3 already has higher ilvl63 drop rate, so 200MF Act 3 is guaranteed to be better than 200MF Act 1.

QUOTE(deodorant @ Jul 14 2012, 01:16 PM)
I was just thinking randomly.

We are assuming that the %'age chance for multiple affixes from act3 vs act1 mobs is the same. What if it is different?

What I mean is this. We know that MF doesn't affect proportion of ilvl 63 items. However as per this thread, it affects the chance of getting higher number of affixes.

We are assuming that an act 1 elite has the same base %'age chance of dropping 6 affix as an act 3 elite. What if it's different?
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The idea that base affix increases by act is the assumption that should be questioned, not the other way round.

This post has been edited by Currylaksa: Jul 14 2012, 02:52 PM
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 14 2012, 03:25 PM

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QUOTE(deodorant @ Jul 14 2012, 03:15 PM)
Toe-Mah-Toe vs To-Mey-Do. Whichever way you want to look at it, has there been any announcement by the blue's confirming it either way? If it's not confirmed by blues, what makes you so sure that an act 3 mob has exactly the same base chance of dropping a 6-affix rare vs an act 1 mob?
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And what makes you think it doesn't? The burden of proof is yours.

The blizzard drop rate info reveal only shows ilvl rate differences, and there have been no new finding towards base affix rates being different. In the absence of any new leads, it is scientifically correct to assume all things being equal.

Again, the burden of proof is yours.
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 14 2012, 03:33 PM

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QUOTE(Moogle Stiltzkin @ Jul 14 2012, 03:32 PM)
i've found some gear in act1 with 7 affixes (although the most recent being a ilevel 57 tbh...)
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some affixes are combination of 2-3 stats (e.g. STR and INT together in one affix)
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 15 2012, 12:11 AM

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QUOTE(deodorant @ Jul 14 2012, 10:09 PM)
*shrug* I'm just throwing out some possibilities. Personally I don't care either way since I farm only Act 1 & Act 2 cos I can't be arsed to die multiple times in Act 3/4 (and I'm lazy to gearswitch). Doesn't matter to me if you decide to dismiss the possibility outright just because "Blizzard hasn't said so."

Take this thread for example. Bliz only revealed that MF affects # of affixes like what, 3 or 4 days ago. So if someone came up with this theory 2-3 weeks ago, I suppose you would have also dismissed it outright "because Blizzard has not said anything about it?" If the entire community takes this stance we would still be wondering how exactly armor and resistance affect total damage reduction.
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What's the point of all this? Now you are accusing me of callous negligence just because I made the correct decision to consider all other factors being equal until new information arrives, which by then we adapt again.

What do you expect me to do? Take your possibility into account and use it as truth, make up some numbers for it? There are so many different unproven possibilites out there people can throw out too, do I consider them too?
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 15 2012, 07:24 AM

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QUOTE(deodorant @ Jul 15 2012, 12:58 AM)
I don't *expect* you to do anything. You've concluded that Act 1 Farming >>>>>>>>> Act 3 & 4 Farming on the assumption that the base drop rate for Act 1 vs Act 3/4 mobs are the same. All I'm saying is that there is the possibility that Act 3/4 mobs may have a higher base chance to drop items with higher number of affixes.

No, I don't have any data to "back up my claims," because I am not making any such assertion. If you are happy to continue on this assumption because Blizzard has not given any such indication, by all means switch your farming to Act 1.
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And that's the correct thing to do. Besides I don't see a motivation behind different tiered tables based on Act, there's already iLvl rate difference. Nightshade never gave any real reason other than "Blizzard would be morons to not do it", and left it at that.

Just stop insinuating I am dismissive and callous about considering other factors. You pressed my buttons because you never bothered to flesh out anything on your idea, then straight away suggested I'm being arrogant with my limited knowledge and contributing to misinformation. We will adapt when new data arrives. Diablo gamers are doing research as we argue about nothing.
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 19 2012, 10:58 AM

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TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 20 2012, 09:47 AM

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QUOTE(VinluV @ Jul 19 2012, 04:30 PM)
Discussion on MF http://redd.it/wrt3n

MF affects the number of affix in rare drops but noticable in a large scale only.
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Since Affix 6 is first roll in a sequential probability, that means 100% will linearly double the number of Affix-6 items, at the expense of blue and white.

Even if base is 0.1%, MFing up to 0.2% would make a massive difference in your farming rate, because it's double.
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 20 2012, 01:35 PM

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QUOTE(SpikeTwo @ Jul 20 2012, 01:16 PM)
which route to farm in act 2? tonight after maintenance i gonna test farm run.
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Vault of the Assassin. If you start the quest for Kulle to find his blood, find the vault of assassins. Clear the area for elites and leave game. When you restart the game, you will be start back inside the vault.

In between you can mix in Black Canyon and Alcarnus, which combine for 3-8 guaranteed elites
TSCurrylaksa
post Jul 20 2012, 02:27 PM

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QUOTE(philip42 @ Jul 20 2012, 01:57 PM)
what is the best place to farm if i only have nv and no magic find%?
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Act 3, even then you will get shittier loot than people who MF farm Act 1/2



 

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