Hi guys, I need some help here.

I'm buying a house and noticed that the previous owner didn't apply for a renovation permit before he renovated the house.

Now I'm liable and will have to pay the fine if the MPSJ finds out.

I'm obviously not happy about it and the previous owner doesn't want to take his responsibility.

What can I do now? I want to legalize the renovation made, but is it even possible? I'm afraid I'll be fined and MPSJ may even tear down the renovated parts from what I read. I'm most worried about the renovation being illegal and rejected. I'm ok to pay to get the renovation legalized.

Has anyone been in that situation (renovation completed without permit by the previous owner)?

Bonus question: how much is it going to cost me? I guess I won't be able to avoid the fine + have to pay for architect to draw the plans + permit fees, etc.

Thanks!

This post has been edited by cedm: May 16 2012, 06:37 PM

Have you purchase the house? If no stop all the process and demand for refund on your d/p. Threathen to report if he refuse to refund?

I haven't signed the SPA yet. I've only paid the 3% deposit so far. I found out about the missing permit when the seller's lawyer deleted a clause related to the renovation in the SPA.

So, yes, I have the option to call off the deal, it's not too late. Right now I'm contemplating my options and try to see what is worth. I like the house, the location, the price and it's a lot of effort to find something correct. Been looking for a house for a year now, I don't want to throw all that effort down the drain.

If I can legalize the renovation and the cost of doing so isn't prohibitive, it may be worth it. But it's kind of a gamble and something more to worry about.

Renovations are fairly basic: new front gate, proper wall fencing all around, extended at the back with "metal" roof to cover. No structural changes to the unit itself, except for a 2m by 2m kitchen extension. That's about it. It certainly doesn't make the house look out of place, it just look like the neighboring units.

This post has been edited by cedm: May 16 2012, 07:14 PM

You notice when newer area being developed, owner start renovation without permit because they pow the runner already.

Honestly, it's not a major issue. The items you mentioned are pretty standard renovations which the council won't even take notice of.

If you really want it legalize, find a runner and get the appropriate information and costs. Possible redress is to get the owner to fork it out or for less hassle you foot the bill. I don't foresee it to cost much as there is no major structural changes.

Thanks Adrian. Seems like it's still worth going forward with the purchase. I will check what my lawyer has to say about it.

I do not expect the seller to fork out anything as he is the one who asked the lawyer to remove the compensation claim of the renovation.

no structural changes.. so no worry lor....

Lawyers will always advice on the side of caution. It's their job to do so.
Don't expect your lawyer to turn around and agree with what you say.

TS, i suggest you to do the following
Take picture of all the renovated works and go MPSJ ask them is this consider renovation which need approval. If answer is 'no', then you are happy. If the answer is 'yes' (which means MPSJ will fine you) then there is 2 options for you,
Option 1 - Get the seller to bare the fine.
Option 2 - Take all these work out temporary when you apply you renovation permit, then include it in your new renovation plan.

If I understand correctly, to draw a new floor plan and get the renovation approve is around RM2K.
The same thing happen to me on my newly bought house but the previous owner only did half wall instead of full wall for the kitchen extend. Since nearby neighbourhood had done all extension, I plan to top up the wall and go without permit (no money ). The fine is around RM500 + new drawing plan, etc (RM2K). See whether you want to take the risk.

As you mentioned this is probably the house for the rest of your life and you like it very much.....
Just to dig out another RM2-3K to solve this, i think it's worth doing it. Money can solve means it's not really a problem.

Thanks for the support and advice guys.

My lawyer asked me the same: to provide pictures of the renovation so that she can evaluate them and advise on the best course of action. From what I've gathered now, it seems the renovations are considered pretty standard and minor, so there's shouldn't be too much worry that the council would tear down anything.

I'll enquire with the council as well to determine the cost and required documents to get a permit for all that. RM2k would be perfectly acceptable to me. I'm slightly worried with the back extension though, as the wall rises fairly high. I read that it cannot be more than 5ft tall and that there should be 1m spared at the back -not too sure about that though...

in legal terms, what is considered as structural change?

1) if my wet kitchen has half wall, and i want to cover all, does it consider structural change? no extension at all

2) outside of 2nd floor master bedroom there is a big space (cover for porch), so if i plan to open a door in the master room to go out there, and do a 3-4 ft railing to make it becomes balcony.

A) 1) and 2) do not need approval
B) 1) need approval 2) doesnt
C) 2) need approval 1) doesnt
D) both 1) and 2) need approval

*i went to ask developer, but the sale office did not provide any clear answer, they asked me if others are doing it..i told them yes, i saw there are ppl doing it, they said then should be ok....

*i plan to go ask MBK or whatever, my friend told me they will always need approval because they want money??


thanks

This post has been edited by jtleon: May 17 2012, 09:41 PM

Hey guys, I'm back with some not so good news... There's a big question mark on the legality of the back extension, and I need some help to figure out what is actually legal when it comes to ground floor back extension:

- Can the back extension goes all the way to the boundary line? Or is a minimum spared space required? (I've read conflicting information here. Some says must be 5ft spared, some says that only applies for upper floors and ground floor can be extended to the max.)
- What is the maximum legal height for the concrete walls? I've read 5ft, some other people mentioned half wall only (half what?)

The property in question is fully extended at the back, with high walls (close to 7ft if I remember correctly), and only a foot of space left before the roof (for air flow I presume).

I think the rest of the property's renovation will be fine as they are very common, but the back extension is a different matter. I'm running out of time as the deadline for signing the SPA is tomorrow. The seller and his agent are getting very annoying and totally unwilling to help find out any information.

Also, does anyone knows how much is the council fine for illegal renovations? What order of cost are we talking about here? RM1k? RM 5k? more? less?

Property falls under MPSJ jurisdiction.

Thanks a lot.

I can definitely say this will fail as the distance between ur back wall and the house wall must be at least 7 feet if I remember correctly.

what kind of house? what is the width of the back lane?

terrace house, 20x70. I have no idea what is the width of the back lane... it's narrow and you cannot drive through it (i.e. no road) is all I know..

Go to the local council, there is a comprehensive guide line there on all these.

U need at least 7' of setback, if already built, worse case scenario u have to demolish...better get a runner to settle with authority, maybe can kawtim

Yep, I'll have to go to the council and find out for myself what the laws and guidelines are. It's really hard to get reliable information. I need some clear black on white legal document. Guidelines seem to vary depending on who you ask... Such a mess.

I'm trying to strike a deal with the seller now, so that he bears the cost of tearing down if that has to be done, and I'll bear all other costs and fees...

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Added on May 18, 2012, 12:39 pmYeah, tearing down the back extension is a probability. I still have to figure out this setback limit. Would that mean you cannot fence your land and have to "give up" the last X feet? I can understand not allowing build up a massive wall / full height extension to the boundary line, but would "half height" wall + mesh wire fence (or whatever that let air goes through) be considered ok?

This post has been edited by cedm: May 18 2012, 12:39 PM

If you are prepared to pay fine why pay now? Leave it as it is so long as the extension dont collapse on you. Why would you want to legalise it by paying now? When one day MPSJ come after you it is no different from today you still pay the same fine and expenses.

You may never know one day you might want to do some reno and by then you get the drawing and pay the fee, not need to pay fine and save for now.

But if you want the seller to bear some cost tell him and his lawyer you are going to inform MPSJ and he has to pay the fine. If he threaten you he wont pay fine and allow MPSJ to tear down the sturcture, you just tell him that eventually he still has to pay the fine plus the cost of tearing from MPSJ. So noone win.

Under such, you should just ask him to pay you rm2k for the fine and the rest you take care of it and this can be included in the agreement. From then on you do nothing, put that RM2k in bank saving.


This post has been edited by stevie8: May 18 2012, 03:51 PM

Thanks but I'm not interested in being a d*** to grab a couple of grands from the seller.

I want to legalize the renovations because of three reasons:

- Insurance would likely deny any claim I make if renovations are illegal.
- If I sell the property in the future, I do not want to trouble the buyer with the same issue I'm facing now.
- I have ethics and like to do things properly and legally, not try to squeeze through regulations and hope nothing will happen.

The sooner I can get everything settle, the better. I want peace of mind.

This post has been edited by cedm: May 18 2012, 04:55 PM

Than better buy another house without renovation and do your own renovation. Btw even get permit to renovate does not mean is legal. Because after renovation we need the authority to come and inspect and give another document. Forgot what is the term called. And I bet many don't do it.

I think you are referring the the CCC (Certificate of Completion and Conformance).

I'm aware of that some of the renovation may not be legal, even with a proper permit. This is why I'm trying to figure out what is considered within guidelines and what is not. So far, I ruled all renovations as technically ok, except for the back extension which may be beyond what is allowed.

I chose a renovated house because I didn't want to go through the hassle of renovating a basic unit. It's really not about the cost but about the hassle and time it requires to get renovations done, the uncertainty that the contractor won't do a good job, etc. There's also substantial renovation done inside the house and these do not need council approval. All that is fine. It's only the outdoor renovations that are the issue.

Ccc is cert of completion and compliance.

Its good to legallized the renovation. Peace of mind. You have to check with majlis coz different majlis have different means of dealing with this kind of issue. Even in the same majlis also different people will have different opinion...

Yes, and many don't get it. Even you have permit to renovate, without CCC is still consider illegal.

The world is never perfect. If you are looking for a perfectly legal reno, do it all on your own to really have a peace of mind.

It is not trying to grab some money from some ppl for free or taking advantage. It is to be fair. To be fair to you, bro. Of course again it is never fair or perfectly fair. Fair that he paid some for his mistake, carlessness or whatever and life goes on. For example someone knock your car in an accident. How do you feel if he just walk away. but if he pay you something say half of the damage, it is not the money, but you feel better that he paid some for his mistake. With good feeling you forget about the whole thing and look forward to your life.

Havent heard of insurance not paying like fire due to illegal reno. The insurance companies dont even want to know if your reno is legal or illegal when taking up and accepting your house insurance.

Forget about getting someone into troble. Just pay the new owner some compensation like what you are asking if that make you feel good when you sell your house in future.

Life is unpreditable. expect the unexpected. worry not about regulations when regulators dont bother about regulations themselves. They are the most unperfect ppl around us. If you want to do thngs "perfectly" "properly" build your own house. How you know your house was constructed with "proper" cement mix, enough steel, the foundation, etc, etc and "legal". So the point is if the reno was constructed properly when you and all the people do not know if the original house was constructed properly. Properly does not mean not legal. Legal because it was issue cert. As for your illegal reno, when MPSJ come knocking on your door, you can make it legal by paying fine and some expenses drawing the plan and submit. Why would you want to make it legal now, that was my question. For some compensation money from the seller?

We live in a very unperfect world because all are man made, the regulations, the construction, the everything we made and ourselves are unperfect. What I am saying is not trying to offence you but merely telling you to take thing easy and you will be happy. Life is more than just the reno issue. You got a new house that is the bigger issue and be happy to own it and enjoy it then to be disturbed unneccessary by this legalising the reno.

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Added on May 19, 2012, 12:13 amIf your issue is to legalise the back reno or getting the CCC just go and pay the fine and submit plan as advised by the officer and get him to issue you the CCC. That is the way to go. Pay fine and you will be fine like commiting a traffic offence (making an illegal U turn), pay fine and you are fine, a free man again with a license to drive legally. And again you with your driving license, the licene to drive you can make another illegal U turn, no problem. That's life, that's the rules.

This post has been edited by stevie8: May 19 2012, 12:13 AM

hi, from the problem. we can solve your problems.

u can contact us directly
nizam : 013-3858340

or email
info@ancoraconcept.com.my

Fully agreed. I'm facing same problem here, just bought the house and found out the owner did renovated without permit, I'm in the hot water now, and i wish to settle this problem as soon as possible.

i have the same problem but mine is an auction house.is there any different?

Hope you guys can all post follow-ups when you resolve your issues with the different local authorities... hubby is thinking minor reno no need any permit, so I really want to know the possible consequences.

Area?just submit as built drawing and prepare some cash for denda.

hi there, my house in setia indah johor bahru, 9 years house~
totally how much will it costs? (included the drawing plan)
hopefully will below 5k coz i dont have much money to spend on it.

I really need your help to make it legal~ PLEASE

i have no idea that why im here seek for advise~

Sorry.i dont have any contact for JB area.u can try contact jabatan bangunan at MBJB.some of them surely doing part time job.
I think 5k shud be enough for renovation drawing excluding denda.

Is it okay to direct call in to ask? that's so open~

I think topic starter has already set his mind to buy and, money....seems like is his second concern since he like the house so much

I'll just advice you to go ahead.

By the way, if I'm the seller I'll be very happy cause got ppl willing to clean the shit for my mistake.

I think topic starter has already set his mind to buy and, money....seems like is his second concern since he like the house so much

I'll just advice you to go ahead.

By the way, if I'm the seller I'll be very happy cause got ppl willing to clean the shit for my mistake.

Hi anyone can help to apply renovation permit ??? my house located at sri damansara.

Need help. Thx

Hi just to contribute my 2cents of experience. No worries getting it legalize. Just go to local council. Tell them u bought the house that have already slight renovation. As a good citizen u always "HORMAT" all local council ruling. Talk to them very politely. Said now u want to legalize it. can buy ready plan (a booklet for rm10) then pay rm 500 refundable deposit and tell them to come inspect and u will do any rectification to their criteria if required. Once they come for 2nd inspection and happy, they give u back the rm500. Or if they refuse, u just pay rm300-500 fine. They wont breakdown ur house as whatever it is based on legality, the land belongs to u and u can actually do anything to it. But because we Hormat them we want to get their approval. Most of this officer are quite nice. As for me I always get approval befor doing any outside reno. I go thru architect and engineer. The market cost is around RM800-1000 for single storey extension and RM1400-1600 for double storey extension (excluding the RM500) deposit. Take note slight variation in local council protocal between different states. Hope that helps

if you plan to do renovation you can summit together with the existing ext and new extension... normally 10 year ago nobody really bother to submit any plan to the local authority if they ask you just say done by ext owner..

Hi Hitammetalic, do you have any architect that can help to do submission to MBSA and MBPJ? can you share with us?

Your architect very cheap.are u sure ur architect not blacklisted from LAM? i am also doing submission plan to local authority but not cheap like ur architect.can u share ur architect no? :-)

Actually ...hav u ever think of approaching Majlis now and ask, if you could legalise it? since u hav the choice to refund

double posted... stupid mouse pad

This post has been edited by taitianhin: Aug 25 2014, 07:15 PM

U got to MBSA or whatever council. They will have a list or their panel architect. Just call all to survey price. Usually standard one. Double storey reno requires engineers input hence more costly. Hope this helps

My architect may not be suitable for u as ur area is different hence they dont know the inside people well to kam ching. Best is to ask the officer to recommend u a list. Cheaper than non panels for sure coz they have volume

hi guys need advice on this as well - in the midst of buying an subsale property under MPSJ and doing some due diligence. paid deposit but haven sign SPA

the vendor could not locate or share a copy of CCC nor SPA. my worry is on the CCC. the house has renovation done, esp the ground floor kitchen fully extended to back, not sure if it is legal. My lawyer advice me it's ok and i can extract the CCC from MPSJ at cost about RM200+..?

appreciate any inputs to resolve this. thanks.

how old is the house?
if very old like above 20years...
just chill...

newer one like less 5 years... then worry...


This post has been edited by nexona88: Oct 5 2020, 06:39 PM

Is the sellers responsibility to provide a copy of the ccc. If the lawyer ask you to extract, then he take up the bill.

If the property is with ready title, there is no need the SPA, otherwise is require.

Thanks for your reply. If the renovation done is illegal ie without approval plan, would you know if it would cost a lot to legalise it now?

Submission of drawing plan plus fines ... should be few thousands ... check with mpsj.

it should be c.40-year old...

what if i intend to do renovation in the future? the authorities would find out and there is a possibility i will kena by then?

Just pay the fine & proceed with renovations....
But some smartA$$ don't bother with that too... Proceed without anything happens....