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KarchKiraly
post May 15 2012, 10:30 PM


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I post this up as a reply in another thread. However, when I think further perhaps it is not a bad idea if our kids can take up extra language classes for communication instead of taking up 10-12 subjects for their PMR & SPM exams.

Why not make it compulsory for all Malaysian kids in school to take up mandarin, tamil, cantonese, arabic and perhaps kelantanese dialect just for a few years, let say Standard 4,5 & 6. Focus more on learning the languages for communication. English and malay language are already compulsory subjects. Then, they can choose if they want to take advanced classes for a few more years on only one of the languages (Form 1, 2, 3).

Perhaps then, the new generation will understand each other better. I know there are many of us who can speak fluent english, malay, mandarin, arabic and tamil... or at least any 3 of those languages.

This is perhaps easier to implement compared to making all school in Malaysia to be of a single type... no more SRJK, Sek Men Agama, etc.
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phanda X
post May 16 2012, 02:36 AM


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we trapped in exam oriented system. The more A's you get more smart you are.

Thats why most teacher tend to choose easy A subject to fulfill the quota thus increase probability to gain more A.

eg: Pendidikan seni visual, etc..


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ashcrimson
post May 16 2012, 08:55 AM


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TS, until they changed their mindset and study to gain knowledge instead of study to get A's, what you say will not happen
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TSOM
post May 16 2012, 12:48 PM


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admirable suggestion but I don't think BN will agree with you ...

ask perkasa and its gang ...!!
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dkk
post May 16 2012, 03:54 PM


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QUOTE(phanda X @ May 16 2012, 02:36 AM)
we trapped in exam oriented system. The more A's you get more smart you are.

Thats why most teacher tend to choose easy A subject to fulfill the quota thus increase probability to gain more A.

eg: Pendidikan seni visual, etc..
*
Simple solution. Create these subjects as "easy-A" subjects. This way, everybody will go for them. Basic Mandarin. Basic Tamil. Basic Kelantanese. Basic Arabic. You learn enough to speak, read, write; you get an A.
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phanda X
post May 16 2012, 04:30 PM


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QUOTE(TSOM @ May 16 2012, 12:48 PM)
admirable suggestion but I don't think BN will agree with you ...

ask perkasa and its gang ...!!
*
in most kampung, student didnt have chance to mix with english speaker. For sure this is kind of injustice to them.


QUOTE(dkk @ May 16 2012, 03:54 PM)
Simple solution. Create these subjects as "easy-A" subjects. This way, everybody will go for them. Basic Mandarin. Basic Tamil. Basic Kelantanese. Basic Arabic. You learn enough to speak, read, write; you get an A.
*
what do you mean by word 'basic'?

Izit learn that particluar language just to help understand their culture?

Or learn to speak only, ignoring thi grammar part?

This post has been edited by phanda X: May 16 2012, 04:31 PM
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joefbi
post May 16 2012, 04:32 PM


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only can do if only as a value added, no exam for it..like a co-co
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raclette
post May 17 2012, 12:47 PM


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y kelantan dialect? it better be thai language la.
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dkk
post May 17 2012, 04:00 PM


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QUOTE(phanda X @ May 16 2012, 04:30 PM)
in most kampung, student didnt have chance to mix with english speaker. For sure this is kind of injustice to them.
what do you mean by word 'basic'?

Izit learn that particluar language just to help understand their culture?

Or learn to speak only, ignoring thi grammar part?
*
No. Don't ignore grammar. But don't focus too much on it either. Learn more like the way a native speaker learns. Think of all the grammar rules which we learn in school, and then promptly forget. For example, I'm not really sure what is an adjective today, and whether it should come before or after a pronoun. But my English is just fine. smile.gif

Basic means "beginner level" as opposed to "advanced" classes. Learn enough of the language to be able to converse at the level of an 8-10 year old kid. Plus you can read and understand a newspaper, and write simple notes. Nothing like poetry, essay writing, etc.

This post has been edited by dkk: May 17 2012, 04:01 PM
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phanda X
post May 18 2012, 12:09 AM


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QUOTE(raclette @ May 17 2012, 12:47 PM)
y kelantan dialect? it better be thai language la.
*
Learn Kelantanese dialect give you advantage to over 6 millions speaker.

Loosely, 1.6m live in Kelantan, 4.4m live in southern thai. songkhla, Yala, narathiwatt.

QUOTE

Added on May 18, 2012, 12:17 am
Basic means "beginner level" as opposed to "advanced" classes. Learn enough of the language to be able to converse at the level of an 8-10 year old kid. Plus you can read and understand a newspaper, and write simple notes. Nothing like poetry, essay writing, etc.
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If for Co-curriculum only its good.. smile.gif

This post has been edited by phanda X: May 20 2012, 11:48 PM
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raclette
post May 18 2012, 11:17 AM


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QUOTE(phanda X @ May 18 2012, 12:09 AM)
Learn Kelantanese dialect give you advantage to over 6 millions speaker.

Loosely, 1.6m live in Kelantan, 4.4m live in southern thai. songkhla, Yala, narathiwatt.

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For those who live in the southern thai, they speak thai supposedly. so again, y bother with local dialect? they should speak good bahasa n we should be able to converse with them. kena tipu kat buluh kubu or bukit bunga belakang cerita. unless u have business with ppls of deep deep gua musang, kedai lalat or kampung kadok. if u want to prioritize local dialect so much, better learn utara toking (kedah,perlis,perak,penang). i guess there are places in southern thai that speak utara as well. get real. dont worship your local dialect so much..
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phanda X
post May 18 2012, 12:22 PM


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QUOTE(raclette @ May 18 2012, 11:17 AM)
For those who live in the southern thai, they speak thai supposedly. so again, y bother with local dialect? they should speak good bahasa n we should be able to converse with them. kena tipu kat buluh kubu or bukit bunga belakang cerita. unless u have business with ppls of deep deep gua musang, kedai lalat or kampung kadok. if u want to prioritize local dialect so much, better learn utara toking (kedah,perlis,perak,penang). i guess there are places in southern thai that speak utara as well. get real. dont worship your local dialect so much..
*
I'm not kelantnese btw. But if we just learn this dialect as 'beginner level' only as suggestion, so why not? just learn how to speak, and communicates with 6mil speaker of these language.

I'm sure we ony need spend 6 month to learn this dialect and will be able to converse purposely.

Compared to learn Thai for example, its different, you need to learn from zero, their alphabets, grammar, sentence, etc and etc. You can't learn this language in 6 month, unless you are very brilliant learner.
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raclette
post May 18 2012, 03:14 PM


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QUOTE(phanda X @ May 18 2012, 12:22 PM)
I'm not kelantnese btw. But if we just learn this dialect as 'beginner level' only as suggestion, so why not? just learn how to speak, and communicates with 6mil speaker of these language.

I'm sure we ony need spend 6 month to learn this dialect and will be able to converse purposely.

Compared to learn Thai for example, its different, you need to learn from zero, their alphabets, grammar, sentence, etc and etc. You can't learn this language in 6 month, unless you are very brilliant learner.
*
ok, if u talk about learning basic command for conversation for ex. what u describe as difficulties to learn thai applicable to mandarin & tamil too for those who were not raised in respective environment. i dont speak both n i think if i was to learn one of those, it comes back to learning alphabet/grammar, pronunciation & comprehension when such language is spoken. the difficulties are equal but the opportunity to practice it is of course better for tamil n mandarin (still depends on where you live).

personally i think ppl who tries to speak local dialects of which hes not familiar with looks silly contrarily to those who spoke broken mandarin/tamil.

i wish i spoke mandarin. doh.gif
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TSOM
post May 19 2012, 04:04 AM


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I wish I could speak one of the romance languages ..
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Kasey Brown
post May 20 2012, 09:41 AM


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QUOTE(KarchKiraly @ May 15 2012, 10:30 PM)
I post this up as a reply in another thread. However, when I think further perhaps it is not a bad idea if our kids can take up extra language classes for communication instead of taking up 10-12 subjects for their PMR & SPM exams.

Why not make it compulsory for all Malaysian kids in school to take up mandarin, tamil, cantonese, arabic and perhaps kelantanese dialect just for a few years, let say Standard 4,5 & 6. Focus more on learning the languages for communication. English and malay language are already compulsory subjects. Then, they can choose if they want to take advanced classes for a few more years on only one of the languages (Form 1, 2, 3).

Perhaps then, the new generation will understand each other better. I know there are many of us who can speak fluent english, malay, mandarin, arabic and tamil... or at least any 3 of those languages.

This is perhaps easier to implement compared to making all school in Malaysia to be of a single type... no more SRJK, Sek Men Agama, etc.
*
It's simple.

What you're suggesting is that to communicate with Arabs, I should learn Arabic, and to communicate with Germans, I should learn German. This means every single little group everywhere would have their own language and I would have to spend time and effort learning that language to communicate with that group, and so would everyone else everyWHERE else.

It simply wouldn't work.

What if we taught everyone 1 language they could speak to everyone else with, then allowed them to learn whatever other languages they personally wanted to learn in accordance to their own indigenous background or geographic locations?

That's the point of English. Most of the world speaks English as a first or second language. More scientific research papers and business transactions occur in English than any other language. Most books and most of the internet is written in English. The most powerful countries use it, as well as NATO and the European Union.

In comparison, virtually nothing is done by way of Bahasa.

So it just makes sense that because English is already in place, we should put it first as the unifying language of our world.

There's some sort of notion that not forcing at least someone to learn your language will "hurt your culture". It wont. Your culture is not contingent upon the sounds that come out of your mouth to convey the meaning of "cup", "chair", or "table". Because everything is stored and recorded digitally on hard disk, your language will still exist even if no one knew how to speak it anymore for thousands of generations. There's simply no reason to spend time or resources on it, unless you personally want to.
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eclectice
post May 20 2012, 12:03 PM


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I will support any attempt to teach all Malaysian kids all the languages used in Malaysia among Malaysian Malays, Malaysian Indians and Malaysian Chinese plus other languages if they can help improve the communication. I hope this can be done in a natural way rather than exam-oriented.

This post has been edited by eclectice: May 20 2012, 12:04 PM
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phanda X
post May 20 2012, 11:18 PM


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QUOTE(eclectice @ May 20 2012, 12:03 PM)
I will support any attempt to teach all Malaysian kids all the languages used in Malaysia among Malaysian Malays, Malaysian Indians and Malaysian Chinese plus other languages if they can help improve the communication. I hope this can be done in a natural way rather than exam-oriented.
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Why not if we use both method?

some student from kuala terengganu might prefer examination way rather than their friend in taiping. And their friend in taiping already have advantage learning mandarin since their environment, advertisment, bill board and newspaper influence by their chinsese neighbour..

My suggestion:

Use 'language club' in school. And ministry need to provide syllibus, which might similar to what we learn in university, such 30% marks thru examination, 30% thru group presentation, 20% thru solo presentation, 20% by teacher.

I mean, when we give more percentage on presentation,it built self esteem to use that particular language in real life.. Most of use learn third language but never use in real life. I myself, learn arabic, france, mandarin and bahasa iban. but none of them i really use in real life, and slowly i forget it..
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dkk
post May 20 2012, 11:27 PM


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QUOTE(Kasey Brown @ May 20 2012, 09:41 AM)
It's simple.

What you're suggesting is that to communicate with Arabs, I should learn Arabic, and to communicate with Germans, I should learn German.  This means every single little group everywhere would have their own language and I would have to spend time and effort learning that language to communicate with that group, and so would everyone else everyWHERE else.

It simply wouldn't work.
That is a false argument. You're simply pushing the suggestion to absurd lengths past it's breaking point, and then say "it wouldn't work".

A: I'm hungry.
B: There are some food stalls over there.
A: I can't eat all that. If I ate all their food, my stomach would explode. Are you trying to kill me?
B: rclxub.gif

smile.gif

He's just suggesting that everyone learns a few extra languages.

There is no data to show that by the time they leave secondary school, multilingual kids' grasp of other subjects like science and maths are poorer than monolingual students. Learning these other languages did not hurt their ability to learn other subjects at the same time.

QUOTE
What if we taught everyone 1 language they could speak to everyone else with, then allowed them to learn whatever other languages they personally wanted to learn in accordance to their own indigenous background or geographic locations?

That's the point of English.  Most of the world speaks English as a first or second language.  More scientific research papers and business transactions occur in English than any other language.  Most books and most of the internet is written in English.  The most powerful countries use it, as well as NATO and the European Union.

In comparison, virtually nothing is done by way of Bahasa.

So it just makes sense that because English is already in place, we should put it first as the unifying language of our world.

There's some sort of notion that not forcing at least someone to learn your language will "hurt your culture".  It wont.  Your culture is not contingent upon the sounds that come out of your mouth to convey the meaning of "cup", "chair", or "table".  Because everything is stored and The srecorded digitally on hard disk, your language will still exist even if no one knew how to speak it anymore for thousands of generations.  There's simply no reason to spend time or resources on it, unless you personally want to.
That's a good suggestion.
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Kasey Brown
post May 21 2012, 08:25 AM


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QUOTE(dkk @ May 20 2012, 11:27 PM)
That is a false argument. You're simply pushing the suggestion to absurd lengths past it's breaking point, and then say "it wouldn't work".

A: I'm hungry.
B: There are some food stalls over there.
A: I can't eat all that. If I ate all their food, my stomach would explode. Are you trying to kill me?
B:  rclxub.gif
*
There is simply no point to mandating a person learn other languages. Using one language will help unite us. Pushing alternatives that help exclude that language do the exact opposite.

For example when you allow subjects to be taught in Bahasa, you provide a convenient way out from learning English. By the time you're an adult, you're effectively cut off from the rest of the world due to the lack of need for English. I met lots of people who chopped food and swept floors who only spoke Bahasa. For the rest of their lives, the only thing they will ever be able to do is chop food and sweep floors. They'll starve as soon as we make a machine to replace them, or as soon as globalization takes over their positions.

Offering other languages as electives is perfectly fine. Using your example, if I'm hungry, I should be allowed to decide if I want fries with my steak. I shouldn't be forced to have fries with my steak if I dont want any.

QUOTE(dkk @ May 20 2012, 11:27 PM)
There is no data to show that by the time they leave secondary school, multilingual kids' grasp of other subjects like science and maths are poorer than monolingual students.
*
Then they ought to be allowed the choice to learn other languages if they want. But it's a complete waste of time to make those classes mandatory, as if it provides any substantial benefit beyond simply wanting to speak another language.

If I want to learn Swahili, then its nice to have access to that as a choice. But why make it mandatory?


Added on May 21, 2012, 8:33 amRemember he's saying:

"Why not make it compulsory for all Malaysian kids in school to take up mandarin, tamil, cantonese, arabic and perhaps kelantanese dialect just for a few years"

Not "Why not allow for all Malaysian kids".

This post has been edited by Kasey Brown: May 21 2012, 08:33 AM
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raclette
post May 21 2012, 01:33 PM


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QUOTE(Kasey Brown @ May 21 2012, 08:25 AM)
There is simply no point to mandating a person learn other languages.  Using one language will help unite us.  Pushing alternatives that help exclude that language do the exact opposite.

For example when you allow subjects to be taught in Bahasa, you provide a convenient way out from learning English.  By the time you're an adult, you're effectively cut off from the rest of the world due to the lack of need for English.  I met lots of people who chopped food and swept floors who only spoke Bahasa.  For the rest of their lives, the only thing they will ever be able to do is chop food and sweep floors.  They'll starve as soon as we make a machine to replace them, or as soon as globalization takes over their positions.

Offering other languages as electives is perfectly fine.  Using your example, if I'm hungry, I should be allowed to decide if I want fries with my steak.  I shouldn't be forced to have fries with my steak if I dont want any.
Then they ought to be allowed the choice to learn other languages if they want.  But it's a complete waste of time to make those classes mandatory, as if it provides any substantial benefit beyond simply wanting to speak another language. 

If I want to learn Swahili, then its nice to have access to that as a choice.  But why make it mandatory?


Added on May 21, 2012, 8:33 amRemember he's saying:

"Why not make it compulsory for all Malaysian kids in school to take up mandarin, tamil, cantonese, arabic and perhaps kelantanese dialect just for a few years"

Not "Why not allow for all Malaysian kids".
*
n what if i dont want your steak coz i have other thing to eat? are you going to force me to eat your steak? if you are talking to a dying person, if he doesnt take the steak then he die, so be it. on the other hand, if he has chicken or fish to eat, do you think you should force him to eat your steak?

i guess uve never met bilionaire who doesnt speak english? superiority complex.

globalization gonna take over lowly workers from those of first world countries first.

this is malaysia. malaysian should learn others language (of chinese or indian) as one of the steps towards racial harmony. we cannot avoid that. id even go as far as to make mandarin compulsory in addition of bahasa n english.
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kaffra
post May 21 2012, 07:40 PM


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There is no point to force multiple languages on others when there are people who still can’t command the national language and English.
Anything else should be optional after the first 2.

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raclette
post May 21 2012, 09:26 PM


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Ideally yes. Practically no.
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Kasey Brown
post May 22 2012, 03:23 AM


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QUOTE(raclette @ May 21 2012, 01:33 PM)
n what if i dont want your steak coz i have other thing to eat? are you going to force me to eat your steak?
*
It's like I said earlier. You dont have to learn English, but what possible advantage would that bring? If you want to be forever limited to sweeping floors and chopping vegetables?

If you're over the age of 18, you're able to decide on that, if that's really what you want. Below that age, we dont consider that you have the maturity or worldly experience to make that call. Hence, we force kids to go to school, learn to read, basic math, and language skills, until they're old enough to decide on their own.

QUOTE(raclette @ May 21 2012, 01:33 PM)
if you are talking to a dying person, if he doesnt take the steak then he die, so be it. on the other hand, if he has chicken or fish to eat, do you think you should force him to eat your steak?
*
You're losing the meaning of the analogy. We're not literally talking about food. We were using the analogy earlier to show how a person shouldn't be forced to have unnecessary and unproductive things at the expense of something else.

QUOTE(raclette @ May 21 2012, 01:33 PM)
i guess uve never met bilionaire who doesnt speak english? superiority complex.
*
It's possible to become a billionaire without learning English. It's also possible to jump from a plane without a parachute and survive. I wouldn't recommend trying it though.

QUOTE(raclette @ May 21 2012, 01:33 PM)
globalization gonna take over lowly workers from those of first world countries first.
*
....................... and?


Added on May 22, 2012, 3:25 am
QUOTE(kaffra @ May 21 2012, 07:40 PM)
There is no point to force multiple languages on others when there are people who still can’t command the national language and English.
Anything else should be optional after the first 2.
*
^^^ I'd meet this half way.

+1

This post has been edited by Kasey Brown: May 22 2012, 03:25 AM
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Deadlocks
post May 22 2012, 03:45 AM


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Oh, come on people.

Don't be so freaking naive.

Think about it. Who on earth will want to learn a language that NOBODY else in the world cares? If you love that language, then by all means go ahead and learn it. If I don't care about that language, why the hell must I even be bothered? Why must you make it mandatory, and FORCE me to learn a language that I don't think is IMPORTANT in MY LIFE?

Think about it. I have refused to learn some of the languages you have because they sound guttural and crude TO ME. THANKFULLY, they're not the most IMPORTANT language in the world we live in. Now, why on earth MUST you FORCE me into learning those languages by making them mandatory?

Your government, whom is also mine, coincidentally and namely, Malaysia, is more economically inclined towards their decisions which happens to be horrifyingly and apparently similar with the rest of the countries in the world! Do you seriously think they will spend the time and resources just because there're just (warning, similar shallow food analogy) because there are variety of food stalls to choose from, just so they can make it mandatory that you MUST actually stuff every single thing in your pie hole?

The faster you cretins realize that the English language, is the guy who gives you money to open those stalls, the better. This has nothing to with any superiority complex. It is simply the reality as it is, as you can see, and I dare you not to have any form of intellectual thoughts being represented in any words that does not come from the vocabulary of the English Language. Go ahead. Do it now. Have an intellectual moment with your thoughts right now, and I dare you to not use any words which are either in English, borrowed words from English, and ideology which are clearly popularised by the West, and proliferated in the medium of the English Language. I repeat. This has nothing to with any form of anything being superior. IT IS REALITY.

WAKE. THE. F**K. UP.

Reality check, please. REALITY f*cking CHECK.

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: May 22 2012, 04:03 AM
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slimey
post May 22 2012, 04:14 AM



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QUOTE(Deadlocks @ May 22 2012, 03:45 AM)
Oh, come on people.

Don't be so freaking naive.

Think about it. Who on earth will want to learn a language that NOBODY else in the world cares? If you love that language, then by all means go ahead and learn it. If I don't care about that language, why the hell must I even be bothered? Why must you make it mandatory, and FORCE me to learn a language that I don't think is IMPORTANT in MY LIFE?

Think about it. I have refused to learn some of the languages you have because they sound guttural and crude TO ME. THANKFULLY, they're not the most IMPORTANT language in the world we live in. Now, why on earth MUST you FORCE me into learning those languages by making them mandatory?

Your government, whom is also mine, coincidentally and namely, Malaysia, is more economically inclined towards their decisions which happens to be horrifyingly and apparently similar with the rest of the countries in the world! Do you seriously think they will spend the time and resources just because there're just (warning, similar shallow food analogy) because there are variety of food stalls to choose from, just so they can make it mandatory that you MUST actually stuff every single thing in your pie hole?

The faster you cretins realize that the English language, is the guy who gives you money to open those stalls, the better. This has nothing to with any superiority complex. It is simply the reality as it is, as you can see, and I dare you not to have any form of intellectual thoughts being represented in any words that does not come from the vocabulary of the English Language. Go ahead. Do it now. Have an intellectual moment with your thoughts right now, and I dare you to not use any words which are either in English, borrowed words from English, and ideology which are clearly popularised by the West, and proliferated in the medium of the English Language. I repeat. This has nothing to with any form of anything being superior. IT IS REALITY.

WAKE. THE. F**K. UP.

Reality check, please. REALITY f*cking CHECK.
*
reality check, knowledge is power.

because people use it, especially people around you, the language has value to you.

and most language in the world have borrowed words.......

english borrowed heavily from latin in case you don't know.......but hey......it doesn't matter.

heck, the more language you know, the easier it is to pick up a new language.
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kamfoo
post May 22 2012, 04:50 AM


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the most importang langauge now is english and chinese.
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Deadlocks
post May 22 2012, 07:45 AM


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QUOTE(slimey @ May 22 2012, 04:14 AM)
reality check, knowledge is power.

because people use it, especially people around you, the language has value to you.

and most language in the world have borrowed words.......

english borrowed heavily from latin in case you don't know.......but hey......it doesn't matter.

heck, the more language you know, the easier it is to pick up a new language.
*
Yeah, your understanding of knowledge is power is like a nerd having all the knowledge to beat all video games in his/her mother's basement, and how they read all kinds of books of knowledge and still fail to understand the power of politics in the real world.

And what you don't understand is that value which you were referring to will only has its meaning when it is NOT mandatory, which is something against what the TS is asking for.

We all know where English came from, and did reality tell you that how exactly Latin is equally as important? How? You can't answer, because you actually knew the answer, and that Latin is NOT important to be made mandatory.

Now stop having too much INFERIORITY COMPLEX. There're reeking out from your post.

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: May 22 2012, 07:46 AM
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Kasey Brown
post May 22 2012, 12:18 PM


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Which is easier.

If every country spoke their own language, or if every country spoke ONE language?
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dkk
post May 22 2012, 11:50 PM


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QUOTE(Deadlocks @ May 22 2012, 03:45 AM)
Oh, come on people.

Don't be so freaking naive.

Think about it. Who on earth will want to learn a language that NOBODY else in the world cares? If you love that language, then by all means go ahead and learn it. If I don't care about that language, why the hell must I even be bothered? Why must you make it mandatory, and FORCE me to learn a language that I don't think is IMPORTANT in MY LIFE?

Think about it. I have refused to learn some of the languages you have because they sound guttural and crude TO ME. THANKFULLY, they're not the most IMPORTANT language in the world we live in. Now, why on earth MUST you FORCE me into learning those languages by making them mandatory?

Your government, whom is also mine, coincidentally and namely, Malaysia, is more economically inclined towards their decisions which happens to be horrifyingly and apparently similar with the rest of the countries in the world! Do you seriously think they will spend the time and resources just because there're just (warning, similar shallow food analogy) because there are variety of food stalls to choose from, just so they can make it mandatory that you MUST actually stuff every single thing in your pie hole?

The faster you cretins realize that the English language, is the guy who gives you money to open those stalls, the better. This has nothing to with any superiority complex. It is simply the reality as it is, as you can see, and I dare you not to have any form of intellectual thoughts being represented in any words that does not come from the vocabulary of the English Language. Go ahead. Do it now. Have an intellectual moment with your thoughts right now, and I dare you to not use any words which are either in English, borrowed words from English, and ideology which are clearly popularised by the West, and proliferated in the medium of the English Language. I repeat. This has nothing to with any form of anything being superior. IT IS REALITY.

WAKE. THE. F**K. UP.

Reality check, please. REALITY f*cking CHECK.
*
Take a few deep breaths, and repeat after me, "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar". Putting your point across in this manner puts people off and turns them against you. I support the English language. It is my dominant language. But after reading what you posted, I feel like I want to argue with you. Because it would make me feel better to be not on your side. smile.gif

First off, nobody is going to force YOU to learn anything. You're no 7 years old. Nobody is going to force you to go back to standard one and take language classes.

Secondly, English is already compulsory. Every single student in our country goes through a decade of compulsory English language classes. They take BM too. Those are the only compulsory languages (unless you're in a Mandarin or Tamil school).

Thirdly, nobody is going to force your kids to compulsorily learn languages like Tamil, Mandarin, Cantonese, Kelantanese, or whatever. I initially proposed that additional languages be offered as options. And the incentive would be to make them "basic"/lower level courses with easier "A" targets. This might encourage more students to go for them. Other people here then proposed that it be made compulsory for students to choose maybe 3 languages to learn. Which 3 is up to the students.

But why are you so aggressive about wanting other people to learn English? You want for yourself the choice to learn English and nothing else. And you certainly state that loudly enough. But at the same time you deny others the choice to learn something else besides English.

I see you *DO* hava a superiority complex. If it isn't a superiority complex, then what is it? I find it extremely obnoxious. It's like you look down on people who's grasp of English is not as good as yours. I know 3 other languages, but none as well as English. I've faced the other end of the stick. "No. My Cantonese is not any good. I can barely make a sentence. But that does not mean I'm stupid. It's just not my primary langauge."


Added on May 22, 2012, 11:54 pm
QUOTE(Kasey Brown @ May 22 2012, 12:18 PM)
Which is easier.

If every country spoke their own language, or if every country spoke ONE language?
*
That's what Esperanto is for. But unlike the Taliban, they were not all-conquering, and all they succeeded in doing was to add yet another language.

BTW: the proposal of have the entire world speak English is un-Christian. smile.gif

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Kasey Brown
post May 23 2012, 08:11 AM


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QUOTE(dkk @ May 22 2012, 11:50 PM)
But after reading what you posted, I feel like I want to argue with you. Because it would make me feel better to be not on your side.
*
In other words:

user posted image

QUOTE(dkk @ May 22 2012, 11:50 PM)
Thirdly, nobody is going to force your kids to compulsorily learn languages like Tamil, Mandarin, Cantonese, Kelantanese, or whatever.
*
But that's precisely what we're arguing about. Look at the first post.

"Why not make it compulsory for all Malaysian kids in school to take up mandarin, tamil, cantonese, arabic and perhaps kelantanese dialect just for a few years, let say Standard 4,5 & 6." -- We're all opposed to this, and we're stating our reasons why.

QUOTE(dkk @ May 22 2012, 11:50 PM)
But at the same time you deny others the choice to learn something else besides English.
*
No, I dont think anyone promoted denying anyone the choice of learning another language. We're not anti-language, we're pro-English.

QUOTE(dkk @ May 22 2012, 11:50 PM)
I see you *DO* hava a superiority complex. If it isn't a superiority complex, then what is it?
*
It's the internet. Don't worry, you'll get used to it.

And this next part...

QUOTE(dkk @ May 22 2012, 11:50 PM)
That's what Esperanto is for. But unlike the Taliban, they were not all-conquering, and all they succeeded in doing was to add yet another language.

BTW: the proposal of have the entire world speak English is un-Christian. smile.gif
*
Alright, so let me go ahead and explain how English got to where it is.

A thousand years ago, the island nation of England realized it would required a powerful navy in order to prevent further invasion from it's neighbors. Over time, navigation tools were developed that allowed ships to sail all over the world, so a few select nations could "claim" new territories. England, France, and Spain were the primary players in the competition to claim new land, which is why those languages are so wide spread. Aggressive trade and colonizing from these 3 happened, and they brought their language with them.

England had the advantages of being geographically isolated, and having more focus on it's naval supremacy.

During this time, each player was invading someone, somewhere, around the globe. They took whatever gold, valuables, or jewels they could find. On the way back to their home countries (for example, Spain), the other 2 players (France and England) would be out to take from their ships whatever gold or jewels Spain had just took from someone else.

Because a full scale war against each other would have been expensive and impractical, but still wanting to raid their ships and take their gold, the English and French royalty issued "letters of marque" to captains, allowing them to "defend themselves" (read: raid Spanish galleons) on the high seas. Spain did the same against England and France.

Over time, these countries became pissed enough at each other that war finally DID happen. Spain got together all her ships and went straight for England in the 1580s. England lit tiny ships on fire and crashed them into the huge Spanish ships. With this tactic, Spain lost, and England was now capable of world domination.

Now if that tactic hadn't worked, we would all be speaking Spanish right now! But it did work. England would go on to win it's competition against France, culminating in the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo. England had become the world super power, and thus had access to setting up colonies anywhere it damn near pleased.

This is how the cards played out! England won. With that, its language also won. Had any number of battles happened differently, then we would be having this discussion in either French or Spanish. English just happened to become the world's dominate language.

What was Malaysia doing during all this time? Utterly nothing. This region of the world did not have the right kind of culture, attitude, or mindset needed for expanding, seizing opportunity, or developing technology and bringing it to other places. Malaysia kept to itself, and so it's language did not go far.

There is no "superiority complex" here. This is history. This is how it happened.

Because England won the "Colonies" game, the colonies set up in America were English. And they spoke English. And they began having these crazy ideas like "all men are created equal" and "each are endowed with inalienable rights". They even said these truths were "self evident". Madness! This mindset won the world during the next few centuries, culminating in the most developed and advanced nation to ever exist.

While in Malaysia, they knew to sit down, keep quiet, and do whatever the king told them. I mean honestly just check any of the other threads on this board. We can see it clearly in posts like this one: http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/2311287/+40 See the following:

QUOTE(tat3179 @ May 1 2012, 03:31 PM)
Actually all this have been discussed to death. Will the Malays ever going to change? No. Will the non-bumis ever going to get what they want? Also no

So back to work everyone. Change will come in a form of a deep economic crisis when this country could not maintain its current lifestyle.
*
In other words: "We cant. We're helpless. Lets not try, and hope it gets better". That, in summary, is Malaysian thought. And you cannot accomplish anything when you think like that. This is why Malaysian influence stays mostly with Malaysia, while America and England influence the world.

If Malaysia developed a navy and expanded it's boarders, THEN things would be different. If Malaysians developed a rational-inquiry type mindset or a competitive spirit, things would still be different. But if you sit and do nothing while the British colonize you, then sit and do nothing while the Japanese invade you, then sit and do nothing while the Americans liberate you, then sit and do nothing while all 3 develop you, then you don't get to put your language as a serious piece to consider in global communications. Of course you're not obliged to do anything either - it's perfectly fine to sit and do nothing, but you have to take what comes with the territory. Doing nothing = getting nothing. A thousand years of "change will come from somewhere else" does not lend itself to being influential anywhere, at home or abroad.

Again, this is not "superiority". English does dominate the globe. Bahasa, Tamil, and Cantonese do not dominate the globe. And now you know why.


Added on May 23, 2012, 8:40 am

The world GDP for 2011 was 78 trillion.

More than half came from English speaking countries, and there are 4,000 other languages on the planet.

http://www.fasebj.org/content/20/1/29.long - nearly all published research is done in English.

Go to google. Type in something. What language is it most probably shown in?

Go to a library. What are most of the books written in?


But the real question is... when did "reality" become synonymous with "superiority"?

This post has been edited by Kasey Brown: May 23 2012, 08:44 AM
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Deadlocks
post May 23 2012, 11:59 PM


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QUOTE(Kasey Brown @ May 23 2012, 08:11 AM)
But the real question is... when did "reality" become synonymous with "superiority"?
*
It rhymes with insecurity.
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TSOM
post May 24 2012, 06:51 AM


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Make English compulsory .. make it your unity language like singapore..

The rest ... mandarin/cantonese/malay/tamil/kelatanese all optional ...

It's good enough if we can master english, at the moment, our rakyat generally quite bad with languages ... pronunciation, grammar, structure sentences all wrong!! Not just in English, mandarin also teruk!!

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dkk
post May 24 2012, 09:04 AM


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QUOTE(Kasey Brown @ May 23 2012, 08:11 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Over time, these countries became pissed enough at each other that war finally DID happen.  Spain got together all her ships and went straight for England in the 1580s.  England lit tiny ships on fire and crashed them into the huge Spanish ships.  With this tactic, Spain lost, and England was now capable of world domination.

Now if that tactic hadn't worked, we would all be speaking Spanish right now!  But it did work.  England would go on to win it's competition against France, culminating in the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo.  England had become the world super power, and thus had access to setting up colonies anywhere it damn near pleased.
"The defeat of the Spanish Armada did not, as is often assumed, herald the ascendancy of the English to the status of mistress of the seas in place of Spain, in large part because the English were unable to consolidate their gains as they themselves were defeated in their invasion of Spain and Portugal in 1589. By any metric, Spain retained its grip on the Atlantic sea lanes and overall control of the high seas well into the 17th century, having retooled its navy so rapidly that the post-Armada navy was stronger than its predecessor before the Armada, and shipments of treasure from the Americas increased substantially..." http://www.historybuff.com/library/refarmada4.html

QUOTE
This is how the cards played out!  England won.  With that, its language also won.  Had any number of battles happened differently, then we would be having this discussion in either French or Spanish.  English just happened to become the world's dominate language.
Anyway, even at the height of the British Empire in the early 1900s, much of the world was *NOT* English speaking. The British Empire was gradually dismantled and by the 2nd half of the 20th century, there was not much of it left.

I would posit that the dominance of the English language today is mostly due to the dominance of America as a global military and economic power, secondarily the export of American TV, and only thirdly due to the residual effects of the old British Empire.

QUOTE
What was Malaysia doing during all this time?  Utterly nothing.  This region of the world did not have the right kind of culture, attitude, or mindset needed for expanding, seizing opportunity, or developing technology and bringing it to other places.  Malaysia kept to itself, and so it's language did not go far.
Japan's economy is so good because all the Japanese people speak English. And the people in the Philippines is poor because they do not speak English. ? smile.gif
92% of the Philippines speaks English

QUOTE
There is no "superiority complex" here.  This is history.  This is how it happened.
On this thread, we're only accusing *ONE PERSON* of having a superiority complex. Not because he says English is the dominant language in the world (it is), or that he thinks we should all learn English (most of us agree with this). But because of his attitude and the way he put things. It *IS* personal. smile.gif

QUOTE
Because England won the "Colonies" game, the colonies set up in America were English.  And they spoke English.  And they began having these crazy ideas like "all men are created equal" and "each are endowed with inalienable rights".  They even said these truths were "self evident".  Madness!  This mindset won the world during the next few centuries, culminating in the most developed and advanced nation to ever exist.
They only won in North America. The Spanish got most of the south.

QUOTE
While in Malaysia, they knew to sit down, keep quiet, and do whatever the king told them.  I mean honestly just check any of the other threads on this board.  We can see it clearly in posts like this one: http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/2311287/+40  See the following:
In other words: "We cant.  We're helpless.  Lets not try, and hope it gets better".  That, in summary, is Malaysian thought.  And you cannot accomplish anything when you think like that.  This is why Malaysian influence stays mostly with Malaysia, while America and England influence the world.
Yes, there are people like that on LYN. "There is no hope. Malaysia is doomed. Migrate". I see this all the time. I'm not with them.

QUOTE
If Malaysia developed a navy and expanded it's boarders, THEN things would be different.  If Malaysians developed a rational-inquiry type mindset or a competitive spirit, things would still be different.  But if you sit and do nothing while the British colonize you, then sit and do nothing while the Japanese invade you, then sit and do nothing while the Americans liberate you, then sit and do nothing while all 3 develop you, then you don't get to put your language as a serious piece to consider in global communications.  Of course you're not obliged to do anything either - it's perfectly fine to sit and do nothing, but you have to take what comes with the territory.  Doing nothing = getting nothing.  A thousand years of "change will come from somewhere else" does not lend itself to being influential anywhere, at home or abroad.
Observe how the Romans defeated the Greeks and incorporated their territory into the Roman Empire. Yet, for most of it's history, the Roman Empire spoke Greek and was Greek.

If the Mongols had conquered China, we would be speaking Mongolian now. Oh wait. They did! smile.gif

QUOTE
Again, this is not "superiority".  English does dominate the globe.  Bahasa, Tamil, and Cantonese do not dominate the globe.  And now you know why.


Added on May 23, 2012, 8:40 am

The world GDP for 2011 was 78 trillion.

More than half came from English speaking countries, and there are 4,000 other languages on the planet.

http://www.fasebj.org/content/20/1/29.long - nearly all published research is done in English.

Go to google.  Type in something.  What language is it most probably shown in?

Go to a library.  What are most of the books written in?
But the real question is... when did "reality" become synonymous with "superiority"?
*
The link also said that 2/3rd of the publications came from the USA. I don't know how much came from England and it's former colonies.

This post has been edited by dkk: May 24 2012, 09:08 AM
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