haha.. Lampeberger name is still said after so many years.. even those lampuburger investors brainwashed for their so called new model busines model dump RM 30k for lamps.. imagine same mentality buying a real gold product.

mini cooper can fit also.. remember the movie Italian Job..

info source?

Hi. Just wish to discuss more on the mechanism of how the money flows and give my opinion. Welcome comments from forumers who did the earlier calculation of 25 percent mark up from spot, and the difference is used to pay back the buyers (investors).

My view is from a view which I think Genneva Malaysia in the long run it not sustainable.

However I think the comparison of 25percent above spot price is not a fair comparison. Meaning the spot price or the per gram price sold by maybank or uob bank for the gold passbook savings rate is not a fair comparison. This is because for the gold passbook savings by local banks, if wish to have delivery of physical gold you have to pay some additional fees, so that fees needs to be added for the comparison.

I think the fair comparison is to compare the price of the international gold bullion sold by uob bank or maybank for their kijang emas local bullion coins.

So for an example. Genneva 1 Oct 2012 rates per gram. RM 218 per gram.

I use todays (I dont have the local banks bullion rates for 1 Oct 2012) rate of gold of 9 Oct 2012 . Assuming very small difference in 8 days.
8 Oct 2012 gold bullion rates.
1 ounce kijang emas local bullion sold by maybank RM 5805, RM 204 per gram. 1 ounce= 28.35grams
1 ounce aussie nugget, maple leaf or singapore lion sold uob bank RM 5711, RM 201 per gram.
10gram pamp by uob bank, RM 2025, RM 202.5 per gram,
20 gram pamp gold sold by uob bank, RM 3840, RM 192 per gram
100 gram pamp gold by uob bank, RM 19054, RM 190.5 per gram.

Gold passbook savings account by uob bank RM 176.4 per gram.
Gold passbook savings account by maybank RM 179.41 per gram.

As mentioned above, I am comparing the gold bullion physical gold rates instead of the gold passbook rates or spot price since there are additional fees if wish to take physical gold delivery.

For the genneva buyers they have to compare with the closest size since difference size has difference price for the gold sold by banks.

As a comparison i would take the 20gram pamp gold bullion at Rm 192 per gram. Genneva gold bullion is at RM 218 per gram.
A difference of RM 26 per gram. 13.5 percent more that the pamp gold bullion.

So how does genneva as a company make money? or should i say come up with the money to pay the buyers the hibah, with only 13.5 % difference.
It is not a pure ponzi, where for example 2 buyers buy the same gold and only 1 gold bullion available for the 2 buyers. There are some cash net in terms of more cash than gold, since there are 3-4 weeks waiting time before delivery, but it is enough to pay the 2 percent.
As mention this from a point of view of reason, I am excluding any vaque explanation or profit invested to get the 2 percent. Do not believe they are hedging, have some oil contracts bla bla. If really so good those contracts, can pledge the contract to banks and get cheaper loans, no need to get capital from public and giving them 2 percent per mont. Hedging has an additional fees to it also.

But i do think they are making a 25-30 percent from the gold bullion. Thats because they are producing their own wafers. Example you sell gold to goldsmiths, there are taking scrap gold price, below 25-30 percent from the current gold bullion rate. Below 25-30 percent so that the gold can be melted and reproduce as a gold bar or jewellery. So lets say, it take 10 percent of the gold cost to melt and produce back the bullion. So thats 10 percent profit for the goldsmiths or gold manufacturer at the gold market price of gold bullion sold banks as comparison. So genneva 13.5 difference to the banks sold gold bullion plus the 10 percent profit from taking scrap gold to produce own gold (as a comparison), still a 23 percent mark up profit (for 1st time sale of genneva bullion).

So if you as the genneva company how do u make money? is my question. You are not investing in some great investment returns, because no need of public money la. If a buyer keeps on buying n selling the gold from genneva he would make the 2 percent, and genneva would be at a loss when the 2 percent per month exceed the initial mark up.

What i think is, from genneva website or contract, it does not guarantee the buy back or the 2 percent hibah. Even the website does not guarantee the buy back, at some point in time genneva would stick to its original statement, where no buy back and no hibah, once it has grown large enough and public are buying gold in large quantities, with longer contract expiry.

If a buyer keeps buying more gold each contract ends or just keep increasing his gold purchase, or a rise in the gold price is enough to buy time for genneva gold. Example. I buy 10 grams, 2 percent hibah, buy 20 grams, 2 percent hibah, 50 grams, 2 percent hibah. 100 grams, then at some point in time, no more hibah and buy back, Genneva makes money from selling a huge amount of gold from between contracts starts and ends, say 6 months.
Assuming the directors wish to stick to the contracts and not break any agreement and still make money, instead of close shop and the later investors lose all their gold.

What do you think?

Investors or buyers lose money go into which category?

hehe.. thanks for the correction.

thanks for the correction for the grams for troy ounce.

at 31.105 grams per troy ounce, best to compare the 1 ounce gold bullion at RM 5711 for aussie gold nugget.

That would make it at RM 183 per gram for the aussie gold, and compare with 218 per gram of genneva gold would be a difference of RM 35 per gram, or 19 percent above the price of the gold bullion aussie nugget 1 troy ounce sold by uob.

So if buying gold from uob better buy the 1 ounce coins, rather than the 20g or the 100gram bar.

Did you lose money from the forex trade? I dare not go into forex, one thing got to compete with all the hotshots or the big fund managers at new york and london who are privy to or at least gets information much faster that us in malaysia.

QUOTE(tandukperak @ Oct 9 2012, 05:57 PM)

gold purchase with 25% premium but came with monthly "gift" of 2% ( 24% annum)...which part of that the customers claimed that the monthly earnings help to support their family? They r their own paymaster wor. Got other interpretation meh?



i dont think you get what tandunperak is saying. he is saying the 2 percent is from their own money (their own paymaster). You are looking at only the 24 percent return. If genneva gave you 48 percent per year (4 percent per month) and a 50 percent premium mark up, you only look at that 48 percent? do not look see the mark up 50? If you answer say look only at the 48 percent, then you have no idea on what "unsustainable" means.

BNM has given enough warnings to the public, and put it on the watch list. And the buyers may even know it is risky. But they think they can come in and sell before the music stops.
BNM has every right to conduct the raid and investigate. The way you are talking is as if to leave genneva alone. Then what? let it go grow to 200,000 investors, and half lose their money? you said you would not be deeply affected if genneva close down or no gold or no money. So this show awaraness on your part on the musical chair. So let bnm leave genneva alone, and let investors play musical chair and see who are the winnner?

Give grace period before conducting raid? give time for genneva to transfer funds out.

For the syariah bit, the majlis fatwa has come out a resolution saying genneva is not compliant and muslim investors to stay away. This part of claiming syariah compliant might breaking some laws already.

Bank negara laws are quite specific. it does not say no gold trading. trade la watever but no deposit from public without licence, no ponzi.
If genneva can prove that the 2 percent per month comes from legitimate investment, and not from your own rolling money in the same pool and account their every gold transaction, then they can be in the clear.

Back to the question, that sceptics ask. where does the 2 percent comes from? if it is from own buyer rolling, then genneva in trouble.
2 percent comes from hedging? other investments? please prove it. very doubtful. You know why? because many many many companies or scheme say give high returns, but mostly not sustainable. High return just to entice your money.

The most ridicolous statement from the GM consultants or customers is " I Buy the gold, I do not invest. GM is not an invesment company".

Playing with words. True they "buy". But why for what? buy for the sake of buying? Buy for decorations? Buy gold and get returns not considered investing by them.

should paste this at their FB group, see what they say. Most likely still in denial..

Public gold sell and trade gold the same way as uob bank or maybank does. Got a buy n sell price. You buy and keep. Sell when gold price higher. They make money from minting their own gold from scrap gold. No dividend nonsense. Why buy from them and not uob? Their selling point is same quality 999 but no international brand so it is cheaper and closer to spot price.

They get on the watch list, I think has something to do with their pawn or pajak gadai facility which goes under some financial regulations that they might breach.

this fella can learn a thing a two about accounting systems. balance by paper and calculator izzit..


bank daily shortage by millions?? so got a window for someone to siphone the daily million shortage before it gets balance la?

Alarm bell sound got drown by potential $$ and convincing talk by consultants.

Trainers at seminars give training and keep repeating the same thing from the training material. I would say background matches the penchant for repetitive talks.

BNM did their part in advertising and put on their website for the alert list. How many buyers who knows this but choose to ignore, or ask their consultant and listening to them instead.

And how many did not listen to their friends or family who says very risky..

Local gold bullion price are freely available but still wanna buy at higher price.

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Added on October 11, 2012, 1:28 pmBNM did their part in advertising and put on their website for the alert list. How many buyers who knows this but choose to ignore, or ask their consultant and listening to them instead.

And how many did not listen to their friends or family who says very risky..

Local gold bullion price are freely available but still wanna buy at higher price.

This post has been edited by Dan01: Oct 11 2012, 01:28 PM

we should post some sense in the page.

white collar 'crime' sure can get bail. murder and drugs only cant. bail set according to precendence of other ppl accuse of similar offence.

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Added on October 11, 2012, 6:05 pmAlarms bells of high return 2 percent per month wont be loud enough? What about the pay premium 25 above market?
How about the history of the same song of too high return for whatever convincing or fantastic plan business plan which always collasped?

Can someone closed to you, make you ignore those red flaqs..





This post has been edited by Dan01: Oct 11 2012, 06:05 PM