I am here just for some facts to share:

First of all, Genneva welcome everyone to test out their gold collected as personally i tested so many pieces including recent ones.. I wish i can find one which is fake or “not so real”, coz i thinking that way i can earn more money as Genneva Malaysia will be willingly pay me a big chunk of money to cover the story. But until now i bought so many bars and cant find any fake ones. Even the Assay company director asked no need to spend anymore money testing my gold. Haha.. Because he knows if Genneva Malaysia Give out any Fake gold, tomorrow it will came out in newspaper and no more in operation.

Secondly, to whom that says Genneva Malaysia selling gold at mark up or over priced, then you must be saying dont buy any gold from All the gold smitch shop in town as they are selling at same market price as Genneva. Bare in mind, Genneva Malaysia is also a retailer selling gold at much much much lower opoeration cost then any other ppl out there. One office in each state of Malaysia we can sell 3Billions worth of gold, ask yourself, do other gold smitch shop sells such a n amount of gold?? NO

When you like to compare buying gold from Genneva Malaysia and from bank, then you always have an option to buy from bank as their price is much lower. Buy and wait for appreciation and sell back. Earn your money. But today, Genneva Malaysia sells at retailer’s price, people cannot accept. I dont understand. I am a big buyer in Genneva, i have check my price with gold smitch out there.. especially the gold smitch starts with P**. I dont think i am so stupid buying from Genneva as with the same price,i got 2% in average a month from them. Even one day they decided not to pay Hibah anymore, i am not at the loosing end. I have my Gold Bar.

You see, ppl always asked a stupid question, how Genneva Malaysia Sustain their business by giving out hibah. With all the money collected from customers, do you really think 2% a month is a lot??? Example: if you start up a business at 100k capital, if you only can make 2% a month, which is 2k, do you think you still wanna run the business? Your workers probably will be more happy coz their salary could be 1k or 2k and above. With 3Billions ringgit that they collected, they can roll at anything they want, definately one month can earn more than 2 or 3% profit. Some of my friends dont plan even to invest in Genneva because to them 2 or 3% is just way too low profit that they can make. I just dun understand why ppl out there thinks it is a lot.. haha.. Probably they never see how much money ppl can make with capital in hand.

Thirdly, Genneva SDN BHD use to run as a china man company. They take in cash at any amount and Genneva give out Gold to customer. They will never know the source of money came from. It is so easy to launder money by buying some gold from Genneva as when contracts ends, just sell back and get all your money back and it is clean money. Now company is governed by AMLA, to prevent this thing from happening. Genneva can take only cash up to 10k and rest are all cheque.

Genneva SDN BHD and Genneva Malaysia SDN BHD are totally different company. They have totally different directors and shareholders. DO YOUR SSM check before you start saying a word. Yes, the people behind are the same, but what is the outcome of the court case for money laundering? NOTHING.. they can find nothing that the directors did wrong.. In court, you are guilty unless proven innocent, so no choice but to start a new company by the name of GENNEVA MALAYSIA SDN BHD.

Fourthly, ask yourself, if one day Genneva Malaysia decided to put a clause “Guarantee buy back”, will u think that, OK now it is safe to buy from Genneva malaysia as they will guarantee buy back their gold? I would say stupid ppl only will think that way. Tell you why, “Guarantee buy back” clause doesnt mean anything, they will never also tell you how much they will buy back. CAN THEY BUY BACK AT 100/g? Yes they can. Now do you really think that that clause makes any differences?
NO.....

Genneva Malaysia sells gold at retailer’s market price and customer get the gold they buy. Actually by doing this, no one is owing anyone money. Hibah is discretionary means they will pay to customers so long that they wanna run the business as this is their business model. If one day they decided not to pay anymore Hibah, do you think they will still get business? NO... So simple as one day they still wanna run their business, they will pay Hibah. Even if one day they decided to close shop, there is nothing wrong with that also. As you get your gold and they get the money. Deal ENDS. Whats the problem? Keep the gold and wait for appreciation and sell outside la. Greed is the only thing that ppl have that is ruing their life. Who asked you to mortgage your house or take a personal loan to buy gold from Genneva Malaysia? Just put in some of your savings to buy gold and get the hibah. Not taking personal loan to earn more interest then the one you are paying.

If anyone can find one piece of GOLD from Genneva Malaysia That is fake, i can buy from you with original price and bring back to Genneva Malaysia to claim because i know i can make more money that you do.. just blackmail Genneva say you will go to the press, they will pay you tons to money just to cover your mouth. Because if it really happens, that’s it for the company...

If you ask me will the company close down? Yes it will.. even the directors of Genneva malaysia will tell you that.. but when? 20 years later? 5 months later? Every company can close down come on.. Dont be foolish. But eventually you still holds the piece of Gold wafer certified and tested by ASSAY company to be 999.9 GOLD, you can always liquid it with immediate cash, with a small percentage taken away. BUT who ask you to liquid it immediately? Wait for gold price to go up and sell.. 10 years ago, per gram is only RM30 and now in 2012 is RM200/g, what do you think 5 years down the road will be.....

screw you, GENNEVA STILL OWE MY WIFE MONEY AFTER BNM RAIDED THEM. PTUIIII!!!!

This post has been edited by lunchtime: Mar 14 2012, 12:44 PM

Nice write up bro. But you have missed something here.
Genneva's business is very simple. You buy gold at current market rate. Keep the gold until your "contract" expire. During the contarct period, they will "give" you 2% from the total money you have paid for the gold. After the contract period, you can either return the gold and get back your invested money or "renew your contract" whereby the company will calculate the amount of gold the company have to give based on the current rate (most of the time, they will reduce the gold amount because the gold price will always go higher).
How about the TAT (Turn Around Time). As you know, you won't get your gold immediately after you pay for it. You have to wait at least 2-3 day to get your gold. So, if something happens during this TAT time, who going to pay us? Have to lick our finger, stuck it in our arse and wait for years for them to pay us? If something happen during this TAT, the company will tell you that they cant do anything because its instruction from BNM not to pay you until investigation over (eventhough the money freezed during the raiding by BNM is far less then money owed to investors). Im not sure, but I think this is part of their plan (when they could not sustain the business by paying the investors 2% every month) to inform Bank Negara Malaysia (BNM) to raid them so that they can give excuse to the investor that they can pay them the intrest anymone. On top of that they will get "bonus" from the gold they hold during the TAT. Mind you, based on the post above, the investment is almost 3 Billion, so do your maths people! What will be the daily investment rated? 100M? so for 3 days it is almost 300M. Do you think they will keep 300M in their account if BNM raid them? Most of it will be in gold form which BNM will never touch!!!!

Don't say a word if you are not the investor who lost your money and gold during the old Genneva Sdn bhd raided by BNM. You know why, because they refused to give me neither my investment nor the gold I purchased back until today!!!!!!! SO who is to be blamed?

So ppl beware before you invest in anything!!!! The only thing I can tell you is that this company is a SPAM!!!! The business model of this company is so good that it can convinced even the great G.Soros, Warren Buffet and etc. But they have one thing in mind, cheat you if necessary. Why I said "if necessary" is becasue if they have problems, they will never care for the investors. If you dont believe, ask all the old Genneva investor if they have received any sort of information or letter or anything regarding the hard earn money they have invested in this ponzi company!! THEY DONT CARE.

So how?

buy at +25% extra premium
sell to goldsmith second gold bar at after market value -25% without workmanship (if company kaput)
storage box of gold bar +Rm50/mth for security safe keeping.
hence, net loss -50%

vs

monthly 2% gain x 12 mths = +24%

hence...

Net risk = +24% - 50% = -26% after a year (Assuming Gold price didn't change)

Even the name itself sounds conned shit

1. If the model is so great, why can't goldsmith like P** promises the same?

2. If the return is so great, EPF return of 6% is laughable. Why didn't EPF just put money into it's model?

3. If you can't rent, can't grow or can't utilize the gold, where does the 2% profits generated?

4. If they profits from buying alot of gold at low prices, why can't they deliver the stock immediately?

There's a sucker born every minute - P T Barnum

Epic Thread/Info.

This post has been edited by doraemonkiller: Mar 14 2012, 11:53 PM

3 words that everyone be forewarned. It's . a . SCAM.

This post has been edited by ricstc: Mar 14 2012, 11:54 PM

@roycechuah,

You are brain washed and a scuker. You know nuts, therefore you are telling nuts here. Bravo to you that you have buy so many gold bars from them.

Because of you, there are many company like this springing like mushroom every year.

all direct sell/ pyramid co. brain washing their agent & client

i bot 1kg from them since 1 year ago, and received their "hibah" on time. i'm well aware of the risk but just to entertain/ show support a close relative lar

my advice to all, don't borrow to buy, only buy if u have extra money, don't use all your life saving to buy & understand the risk involve

bro,

u shud meet him up and claim the money not scolding in forum

never thought that so many people have been trapped by them.
do you mind to share your story to us?

BTW, what is the different between the Genneva SDN BHD and Genneva Malaysia SDN BHD ?

http://www.bnm.gov.my/microsites/fraudalert/0301_status.htm

please check this web geneva malaysia sdn bhd still under investigation by bank negara malaysia at 2012. those bosses still attend to the court till today 2012 just don't know when the bnm will freeze the asset. and all member can't get any return.

I pity those who were cought in the mess. Geneva is a Sdn Bhd and chances of getting the money back are next to none.

It is always the case when anybody who posted about the greatness of Geneva, they dissappear. I wonder where is our mr.roycechuah now?

Normal lar - like previous eagle , when asked to verify calculations i simulated in Excel from his own website, went into "run silent" mode like a submarine.

Biz model - doesnt make sense
Cost - doesnt make sense
BNM - still after them

Triple whammy - still can "sell"?
Yes! Unfortunately - to those who are less clued in.
My mum was nearly a victim - hehe, luckily she knows to poke me about it first.
Her neighbor is "selling" such "gold scheme". Well, payback's going to be a b**** i think.

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Mar 20 2012, 12:43 PM

Perhaps BNM will return the confiscated goods & monies once the investigation is over?

Received the following email and attachment some time ago. Think just do the community a small favour by copy and paste. First time heard abt this company. Before that some friend mentioned some 'good' company selling gold in Old Klang wor. In the heart think think not again, sound very like typical BS marketing co. Rather buy Maple leaf or Kangaroo gold. Even Kijal standard wonder any devaluation or acceptable world wide.


Hi

Kindly find attached herewith, an advertisement by Genneva Malaysia Sdn Bhd in Nanyang Chinese Paper dated 27th Feb 2012 for your attention.

Do take note of the followings should you still want to 'invest' with this company.


1. Company not licensed to take deposits under the Banking and Financial Institution Act 1989

2. Just a company to conduct scheduled business in Factoring and Leasing. A company dealing in buying and selling of gold products.

[3. No buy back guarantee to repurchase of the gold products sold to its purchases

4. You bear the risks arising from or connected with such purchase.


Rgd

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Mar 20 2012, 01:16 PM


Attached File(s)
 2012_02_27_Genneva_M_sia_Sdn_Bhd.pdf ( 118.99k ) Number of downloads: 951

Item 3 is really a slap in the face. Firstly, in Malaysia, gold spread at any goldsmith is 25%. Add that to the premium the investors bought, that makes a double blows. For those who managed to keep the gold, the best way now is to keep it. Otherwise, smelt it and make a jewelry out from it. The next time people asked about your nice braclet, you can share the sorrow story behind its glory.

i dont trust u gold diggers at all...!! come here post tldr... u think we all got time to read ar???

bullshit is bullsht, ptui!

My parentx went to this company suppose to invest in gold called Genneva Malaysia located near Jalan Kuchai Lama . The company call for 2 percent profit per month and that would make about 24 percent divident per year . My paretns invest a few thousand ringgit but I'm really sceptical about this company . How the company can afford to pay such a high divident ? How do I know I'm getting the real gold bar ? Could this be another ponzi scheme

or could it be a scam?

any expert share to advise?

My dear - after reading all the posts above, U still asking whether scam/ponzi or not?
It's the best deal ever! <note sarcasm>

no financial institute can offer that kind of return . . . well good luck to your parents. They called me up before to their office, i didnt even bother to attend as the guy in the phone told me lots of crap.

1)GENNEVA is a world wide company investing in GOLD
2)2% return per MONTH
3)Dr. Mahathir son started this company & etc

2% per month, 24% per yr?! Wow, better than the mighty ah long credit card bank!

Where to find on earth? 24% return per yr? Warren Buffet also cannot achieve tat. Apanama Geenneeva can?

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Mar 21 2012, 02:19 PM

U see, we all understand it came with risk..
But if you can absorb the risk, I dun see any problem buying as you give them money and they give you gold..
Tested by assay company.. 100% 999.9 pure gold.. Every single piece I bought..

Datin paduka Rosmah won't be attending a scam company's event.. Bare in mind she is the wife to prime minister..

Again, everything come with risk.. Nothing is without risk.. Just the matter whether you can absorb the risk or not..

Datin paduka Rosmah support Genneva?

Genneva has been under investigation since 2009 and still running. Many say SCAM SCAM SCAM! But still many go in to buy. Why? They do give what they say they would give:

-The gold is real.
-They do pay up their dividends

Telling buyers they were scammed while they are receiving dividends isn't going to convince them its a scam. In fact they will just promote this too good to be true result. I haven't heard of any that cashed out yet. So maybe that's when the wrong stuff happens where they just won't pay you and force you to keep the gold.

Genneva has a ton of customers. Genneva is also in Singapore, Hong Kong and China. If its a scam its probably going to be like Malaysia's Enron. Where its like making people so much money until it blows up and then becomes a worthless stock. It will be in the news all over the world!

Fyi, the price of gold fell for 21 years from 1979-2000 & it also fell again from it's peak of USD1920/ troy oz in Sept2011 to abt $1660 lately.

Remember, unlike unit trusts which are always guaranteed a buy-back at the prevailing mkt rate as governed by the FIMM under the Sec. Comm, Genneva's not bound by any govt. authority to buy back the goods they sold.

So what happens when mkt prices fall below Genneva's cost of goods sold? Somebody pls say, buy & hold.

This post has been edited by ccslink: Mar 21 2012, 04:18 PM

Hey, U are absolutely right!
Just like Madoff's case - it MUST be real and not a scam coz it kept paying out several years! (until kaka hits the fan)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoff_investment_scandal

BTW, it's also not a scam to sell kaka at $100 and offer 2%pm with other "incentives". It doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do since the biz model doesnt make sense and not sustainable. Then again, if U are the 1st few and can con others into it, why not right? It's all about the money <thick dripping sarcasm>

Walking across the road is a risk.

But walking across the waters of the Straits of Malacca is a greater risk.

BUT FOOLS pay to do that.......... like 25% above spot.....

Maddoff was a chairman of the NASDAQ.......so what?

---

Added on March 22, 2012, 8:09 amThere was a FOREX scam in Sabah....... People from Singapore, Taiwan, HK were affected.............
Power of networking

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Mar 22 2012, 08:09 AM

more like Genneva support her...

Can we have Royce phone number? So in 3 years time we give him a call. If really he has a legit means of earning big bucks from Genneva, he can laugh at us. If the scam finally crumbles, we laugh at him.

Who agrees with me?

That's a real heavy reply, mate!

Three years for the scam to crumble? Not sporting, giving such poor odds to roycechuah. Reduce it to one year and I'm with you!

my fren went there, they told him not 2% per-month lar it is 2% 4 months for buying 50K above oni they play tricks

dude no offence but i thnk as in madoff hitler's case....datin paduka rosmah herself is a scam too...just look at how much of our $$ is spent on buying her f***ing hermes handbag in australia...she used my dad hard earn $$ to fulfill her temptation...BN govt in itself is a scam!

for those who thinking why our Rosmah @ Fat Momma attended the so called Genneva Appreciation Night dinner:

here the comments from one of the blog regarding this scam:

Dear Chuah,

No need to shed crocodile tears for Poh Kong, Tomei, Habib as they are still having their business in gold bullion due to customers’ trust in them and their business model will not fail them or the customers. Their price is fixed by their Association FGJAM and not by goldco posing under GoldBEAM which force all their consultants to be menbers.
Just answer a couple of questions, if you are sincere in the gold market:
1. Are the goldcos which does buyback making or losing money in December 2011 and January 2012?
2. Where does the money for the hibah, consultant commission and operating expenses come from?
Assume goldco buys gold at today X ringgit and sells it for 1.25X ringgit to a customer with a 3 months’ tenure. , it makes 0.25X ringgit
Assuming it gives hibah of 2.0% and commission of 0.8% and has 0.5% operating expenses, making a total of 3.3% per month or a total of 9.9% for the 3 months tenure.
To make 9.9% in 3 months using the 25% mark up, the goldco has to find a business which can generate 9.9 x 4 = 39.6% in 3 months or 13.2% per month since they have to buyback at the end of the tenure.
If they do not buy back, do you think any customer will go back to them by overpaying 25% but only earn 9% hibah (Assuming 3% hibah per month.
Otherwise, the money will have to come from any increase in the price of gold held by the customers. What happens if the price stagnates or goes down?
The goldco Chairman is a cousin of the PM. But the PM cannot be seen to be supporting a goldco which has a shakey business model. So just make use of the “First Lady” and if the goldco collapse, the PM/Finance Minister doesn’t know about it and the “First Lady” has no official designation and she had just obliged when asked by the goldco to officiate. Remember, at the February launch of the Dragon promotion, the Deputy Finance Minister found a junior to take his place and the Agong declined to launch the Shariah Compliant platform of the goldco?


This comment meant to Chuah who is one of the Genneva so called consultant. I was at the dinner too on invitation by a friend of mine. Guess what, his whole family and relatives are in this scam and the uncle was tried to lured / recruited me into this. He forgot one thing. There is the word called internet and google.

nothing much special except for a grand gala and nice dinner @ RM288 per ticket which had to bare by the consultants itself. the funny thing is, the top achiever so called platinum award goes to a lady whose husband one of the main people in Genneva. So irony!

Bravo to this Genneva so successfully manipulated this dinner to make it so grand... only pity to those investors where their hard earn money meant for children education, retirement just gone like that. Time will tell time will tell.

For those so called consultants, if you have a clear conscience, please stop promoting this scam. Yes, we all love money. Infact I do, but I don't wish my house door keep knocked by a poor family wailing and crying beg for the money back as it meant for their children, retirement and in chinese we said coffin fund.

Yes, im in financial industry and i do have my networking, if not why I being invited to the gala dinner event so the uncle can brain wash and recruit me. Frankly speaking the commission is lucrative but I really don't wish my clients cursed me, my friend, relatives crying and begging at me. It just not worth it.

Yes, you can call me a loser, an old thinker, envy and red eye because of Genneva's success , consultants earning millions and I just jealous. Call me whatever you wish too. Again, I'll said this is a SCAM. One hell of a BIG SCAM. why? Need to say more? google it with words of Genneva, Genneve Gold or Genneva Malaysia. There more and more bad news and bad comments rather than good of it.

I guess more losers out there just like me. Yes, Infact I'll continue to be a loser I'll keep telling this scams to my family, my relatives, my friends, my clients and public in general.

---

Added on March 22, 2012, 9:52 pmA former consultant wrote this and again it meant for Chuah, Genneva Consultant.

Here you go:

My name is OLD UNCLE. I used to be an active con-sultant for Genneva ( formally known as Samudra) in the early 2009.
Thankfully, I managed to totally pull-out/withdrawn all contracts since last year .

I assumed you are new and therefore do not fully understand what is really going on with the company.
They kept changing company policies as and when they like, to suit their own interest every few days.

At first, every Consultants were forced to pay portion out of their commission regularly each month- so called monthly meeting expenses!!!.
Later on, we, consultants were made compulsory/forced to pay Rm 500 each to joint as Gold Beam membership.
From there on-wards, to renew membership with Rm 250 every year.
Why is there a need to joint as member of Gold Beam when all of us consultants are under the umbrella of Genneva ??

Without our consent, Genneva can just subtract from our commission to “donate” to functions like big walk, F1, etc to boost it’s name/image.
If company is doing well, why does the company needs to boost its image at the expense of its consultants??

When company’s cash-flow was low, its started forcing everyone of us to pay Rm 250 to Rm300 each to attend non-sense hibah training.
After that, we had to pay extra Rm 40 per contract for stamping.

Later on, company came up with deducting Rm5 per cheque deposited into clients’ bank account.
Is there any other company around who charge a fee for banking-in employees’ salary/commission into bank a/c??

To me, all the above collections are like day light robbery.

Have you ever heard of anyone having to pay to attend for their own company’s Annual Dinner ??? Genneva must be the first and only one.
On top of paying for dinner ticket, we even had to pay bus transportation fare to the event venue. Imagine that.

During the Annual dinner, lucky draws were not lucky at all because Genneva never fulfill its obligations until today.
When asked where are the won prices, they said had to cancel because violate government guide lines.
Free trips to China also no news until today!!!

Of course you may say these are small matters as long as you get your monthly commission and physical gold bars in hand.
Yes, I do agree will you. Even if company wind-up or no longer pays out hibab, its “OK” as long as gold bars are with the clients.

But this is not the case. I had emphasized this 2 years back, for those who follow this forum would still remember.
My only concern is the “Waiting Time”.

Scenario 1) Waiting to get hold of your physical gold after you have made payment AND
Scenario 2) Waiting to collect payment cheque when you had delivered your gold in advance to the company during “sell back”.

2 years back then, the “waiting time” was about 2 weeks maximum but now, it seems stretching beyond months!!!.

My dear Mr. Chuah, have you ever thought of the consequences if you are caught in the above scenarios when suddenly :-
1) Genneva follows Gold Label footstep, to announced in newspaper it no longer sustain business & decided to wind-up or
2) Bank Negara decided to conduct a raid at Genneva & found no cash nor gold available at the premises.

The key point here is “Waiting Time”. The months of “waiting time” is total nightmare.
You will have to be hold responsible to your relatives & friends whom you had convinced that the scheme is “safe”.

Please please and please do not compare Genneva with Poh Kong or any other gold smith shop.
With Poh Kong, you pay and ON THE SPOT you get you gold.
Likewise when you sell to Poh Kong, you get you cash ON THE SPOT.

Please please do not mislead others that you have physical gold in hand.
In actual fact, during the duration of 3 months contract, you only get to hold on gold bar a few days at the most.
By the time you got your gold, its already time to pass back to company for renewal inspection!!!! Yet wait another round….

Please, no more mentioning of holding gold bar in your hand & wait for it to appreciate then sell.
The main issue of discussion is, the time for Genneva to deliver gold or cheque cleared before anything bad happened.

For those who are still waiting to get the gold or sell-back payment cheque, sweet dreams.
By the way, ever wonder why sell-back payment cheques NOT auto-deposited into bank like monthly commission!?!?!.

Dear uncles and aunties, the end is near…You may start crying…………………..

This post has been edited by eddiv3dd3r: Mar 22 2012, 09:52 PM

well said eddiv3dd3r, well said.

those who are in it HAS to continue to believe in Genneva. after it all, they have poured in their money as well. to date, i have yet to see anybody from genneva able to explains the high return of 2%.

the first large scale ponzi scheme by mr.ponzi started off by trading food stamps and coupons. hey, it was just some stamps and so many people went into it. if mr.ponzi were able to dent the market so hard, think about what genneva can do with gold.

the fundamentals are the same - illogical returns in a short period of time, the needs of recruitment and some fella telling everybody else are stupid because their scheme are bullet proof and superior.

Thanks kh8188. Glad you with me. Frankly speaking If this invesment model is workable then the banks and institution are MORON.

heard a lot of stories about the goodie of gold, to filter out noise, its price performance would speak for itself
understand that genneva will buy from buyers at old price + mark up. buyers would lose out if gold price goes up
assuming gold price is way down, does it mean this model is sustainable? can genneva hedge buyers against further losses

i think i have mentioned the model for Suckers..........many umpteen times now

a) First the buyer pays around 25% above spot prices. This covers your 1.5 to 2% per month for 6 months.
So in effect YOU are paying yourself

b) Next the biz model is this:
Recruit BUYERS as AGENTS. The buyers have TASTED the hibah or %....GREAT!
So BUYERs are recruited as agents and it becomes an MLM.....

c) Next the Buyback.....great is it not? GUARANTEED BUYBACK!!!!! SURE COMPANY!
POINT about gold is...... ITS GOING UP IN THE LONGGGGGGGGG TERM!
So WHY sell back after 6 months???? HUH? keep the gold lar..........so i guess MANY will keep the gold bars
because of the reason above. My guess is less than 5 % will sell back.

d) SO you waanna another Hibah? BUY again, and again and again........

e) So it rolls and the 25% above spot that the SUCkers are paying keeps the MLM going.
So its important that the MLM is maintained to keep this cashflow comin in.........

OLD UNCLE gives the best explanation so far.

YOU BUY GOLD FROM RETAILER IF YOU ARE BUYING A NECKLACE OR A BROOCH FOR YOUR WIFE OR GIRLFRIEND, OR SMALL PIECES OF GOLD LEAF 5 OR 10 OR 20 GMS. AND THE RETAIL PRICE IS AS PER THE FGJAM SET PRICE. FOR THESE SMALL ITEMS, THE MARK UP IS PROBABLY JUSTIFIABLE. NEVER NEVER PAY RETAIL PRICE FOR GOLD BULLION INVESTMENT. IS IT WARREN BUFFET WHO TAUGHT US INVESTMENT RULE NO. ONE : “NEVER PAY RETAIL”??

I WILL START A NEW INVESTMENT SCHEME WITH A BETTER PRODUCT, NAMELY TERRACE HOUSES IN BANDAR UTAMA., P J. THE MARKET PRICE FOR A UNIT IS RM1M. YOU PAY ME RM1.25M. AND I WILL DELIVER YOU A HOUSE. I WILL ALSO PAY YOU HIBAH AT 3 % PER MTH FOR 3 MTHS. I WILL MAKE “DISCRETIONARY” BUY BACK FROM YOU AT RM1.25M AT END OF 3 MTHS. HOUSE IS BETTER THAN GOLD AS YOU CAN GET RENTAL INCOME WHEREAS GOLD PAYS NO INTEREST AND GOT SECURITY PROBLEM WITH STORAGE. IF I ELECT NOT TO BUY BACK FROM YOU AFTER 3 MTHS, NO PROBLEM TO YOU AS YOU CAN WAIT FOR PRICE TO GO UP TO RM1.25M, WHICH IT SURELY WOULD, TO GET BACK YOUR ORIGINAL CAPITAL!!! INTERESTED? That summed eerything. any other takers out there???

So the interested investors, do you all see & understand the issue here? Don't be blinded for god sake...

HAHAHA, GOOD ONE!!!

---

Added on March 23, 2012, 10:12 am

Micheal Maloney: The House Always Wins

He detailed about precious metals scams and traps in this short 3 minutes clip.


This post has been edited by kh8188: Mar 23 2012, 10:12 AM

This..

might as well buy the house outright for 1m instead of going for reits
as per all scam, tulip mania, dotcom bubble & etc. the only way it will burst is when the price starts dropping
until then, greed is in play u can see it, once the gold morph into something to attract pak cik, mak cik & all

Unfortunately not many realized this problem aka scam. I was at their appreciation night dinner. Guess what, more than 170 tables packed with consultants, family & relatives, friends, newly investors and curious people who might getting on to invest. Sigh!

Those consultants who achieve the sales target go up stage to collect the recognition award without realizing how many people they already lured to this scheme. Is fine with me if they lured those tycoons and multi millionaires. What worry me is those innocents with their hard earned saving, parents dumped money for their children education, uncles and aunties with their retirement money. Gosh!

Is this consider as retail price?
http://www1.uob.com.my/jsp/finance/fin_gold.jsp?func=gold

UOB sells 1g pamp suisse sells around RM 300++. i bought from gold sellerin FB @ RM 210++

While I enjoying my dinner, this new consultant even dare to say he already studied this company go details with it that's why he invested and finally became a consultant. He said is a calculated risk? What calculated risk just because he holding a marked up price physical gold? he said as long the gold in hand there is nothing to worry even this Genneva close shop tomorrow. He even got guts to tell me to apply a personal loan and invest it because the hibah return higher that the loan interest yet I still make a profit. while I had a smoke, another consultant joined and told me, what a successful diner it is, so many big shot coming. All tycoons and millionaires. If this is a scam, he said to me do you think this big shot some with mafia background will let go the consultants if they know they being conned. This consultants is not that stupid. Hello, I'm not saying the consultants are stupid. Is either they still don't know this scam because being blinded by the commission or they realized yet continue to cheat that what worry me. For those consultants realized yet continue doing it, I would like to say you are one hell of a *******. You will get repay what you had done in your afterlife. All your family will be cursed.

I was gonna fainted when this consultant said like that. Imagine those innocence people ie young graduates and fresh employees who just started in working life follow his words and lured in this scheme. For those consultants, yes you are doing well at the moment. My advise to you is either you better ask your clients, family, relatives and friends to pull out this scheme ASAP with all the money intact or you better start packing you cloths & belonging prepare to leave this country. Please don't be such an ignorance, look at all the news lately, there are not a single words talking good about this scheme.

Oh yeah, you can said I just know how to comments in LYN and talking bad while others already making millions outside thru this scheme. Please stop this. I don't gain anything by doing this but look at the whole picture. People are crying & begging money back at you. Some even cursed you. Oh, maybe by then then you already left the country. Whatever is it, consultants I wish you all the best in running away this country if you all choose too. Good luck!

---

Added on March 23, 2012, 1:06 pmOn yeah, when the appreciation dinner came to the end, the so called general manager announced due to good reception of this dinner and successful organize it, he said 3% hibah given out for the next 3 months as a goodies to all the consultants. Guess what, a mad rush at the Genneva counter because it only open for next 3 days.

Frankly speaking, a sign of this company either running with low cash flow at the moment or preparing something big coming this May 2012.



This post has been edited by eddiv3dd3r: Mar 23 2012, 01:06 PM

i dont buy grams......thats the reason

If you look at the oz, its more reasonable..at RM171.....i would not pay that much more for a BAR

I know that. The reason i buy grams is because of extreme low budget ^^;

Might as well go for paper gold

yup, one of my fren who is agent ask me to invest 100k told him it feels & smell like a scam, he jus kenot accept the facts nor bubble teori
they hav been totally brainwashed & totally blinded by the commission, he says he can earn 6 digit per year
he better dun change his hp no. nor place of residence when the SHTF

Remember, retail gold bar buy back price also higher than the bank. We look at dispersion. 12% is the lowest I believe for goldsmith shop. Now PK have no deduction when you exchange it for jewellery. Wah Chan offer 1 gram for free for every 20 grams of purchase. But still higher than the bank as they offer paper gold which have lower cost and bear the lowest price floating risk. Some goldsmith shop bear the credit card or instalment charge which is 2-4%.
Housing property is a good investment but not for a person who have saving of RM10k or below.

---

Added on March 23, 2012, 10:50 pmWhy not buy 1kg since you are rich enough and always looking for the lowest price.

This post has been edited by doraemonkiller: Mar 23 2012, 10:50 PM

Might as well go for 10kg

So funny. I went to check out their website out of curiosity and there is absolutely no information there about how the investment scheme works. Everything there is about how great the company is, how many people have participated and how much money everyone has made. There's a "Hibah" link that you can click which sends you back to the same page with no additional information at all. I can't believe people can fall for such scammy tactic.

You cant compete the pricing from a primary source to a secondary source. Consider the amount of overhead they have - the storage, the security, the clerks, the aircond, the renovations and the whole lot more. FB sellers have almost zero to low overhead.

Wow, still much debate over this. This is my advice as an ex-agent from one of these companies.

1. Whether its a scam or not.. Maybe yes, maybe no.. I still havn't cracked the code on how the company earns so i wont say much on this part.

2. Can agents earn allot of $$$? YES!

3. Can customers earn? YES.. BUT!!! (read below)

Companies now are taking wayyyyyyyy too long to give you your gold once you paid for it. So what happens if the company gets busted in between? Some ppl say, close eyes and pray lor.. Fine.. So once you get it you are "safe" for 3-6 months depending on contract.

Then comes the next hurdle. If you decide to stop, or renew you do not get money or gold on the spot. You need to give them processing time to get back and that takes another few weeks depending on companies. So another few weeks of stress? Can you take it?

Another problem that you should be aware of is the price of gold. Back when i was an agent it was based on FGJAM price. Prices from some of these companies are much higher now. The question you have to ask yourself is, can you hold on the gold for years to come if anything bad happens?

Honestly, if i can still find a company that sells @ FGJAM price and can give me the gold/money on the spot, I might still consider.

Some people might flame me for saying this, but I've experienced the ups and downs of such companies. I see a potential in clients and agents making money if all of the above issues are addressed. Some of you might say why FGJAM price? Its too high.. blah blah blah.. you can get around 15% cheaper ,you are actually paying a premium..blah blah.. That part I agree. However, if you look at FGJAM prices:

When Genneva 1st started FGJAM price was RM125 which they were following. How much can you sell it for today? Around 2 years ago, FGJAM price was RM145. How much can you sell it today? And the plus side is, how much have you gotten from the rebate/hibah/whatever they wanna call it? Do the maths.

As for the prices that they are charging nowadays which is much higher than FGJAM......................................... I still havn't been able to do the maths.. haha.. enough said..

Oh and one more thing these companies are not APPROVED by BANK NEGARA!!! I keep getting stupid sms updates that some companies have gotten approvals. SYARIAH COMPLIANCE is not the YES license la.. geez...

Can anybody share how the Hibah works in this Genneva scheme pls?

In short, you buy gold from them at a high mark-up (about 24%). They will in return pay you 2% every month as hibah. On where does the hibah originated from, this is for you to ask Genneva.

All the best in your gold investment.

Cheers.

Errr, back to my question, so does anybody in this discussion actually know or can anybody pls share how the Concept of hibah, works in relation to the Genneva monthly dispensation scheme?

sounds about right



Ponzi scheme


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1910 police mugshot of Charles Ponzi
A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation. The Ponzi scheme usually entices new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. Perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to keep the scheme going.

The system is destined to collapse because the earnings, if any, are less than the payments to investors. Usually, the scheme is interrupted by legal authorities before it collapses because a Ponzi scheme is suspected or because the promoter is selling unregistered securities. As more investors become involved, the likelihood of the scheme coming to the attention of authorities increases.

The scheme is named after Charles Ponzi,[1] who became notorious for using the technique in 1920.[2] Ponzi did not invent the scheme (for example, Charles Dickens's 1857 novel Little Dorrit described such a scheme),[3] but his operation took in so much money that it was the first to become known throughout the United States. Ponzi's original scheme was based on the arbitrage of international reply coupons for postage stamps; however, he soon diverted investors' money to make payments to earlier investors and himself.





Contents
[hide] 1 Characteristics
2 Unraveling of a Ponzi scheme
3 Similar schemes
4 See also
5 References
6 Further reading
7 External links


[edit] Characteristics

Typically extraordinary returns are promised on the investment, and vague verbal constructions such as "hedge futures trading," "high-yield investment programs", "offshore investment" might be used. The promoter sells shares to investors by taking advantage of a lack of investor knowledge or competence, or using claims of a proprietary investment strategy which must be kept secret to ensure a competitive edge.

Initially the promoter will pay out high returns to attract more investors, and to lure current investors into putting in additional money. Other investors begin to participate, leading to a cascade effect. The "return" to the initial investors is paid out of the investments of new entrants, and not out of profits.

Often the high returns lead investors to leave their money in the scheme, leading the promoter not to have to pay out very much to investors; they simply have to send statements to investors showing them how much they earned. This maintains the deception that the scheme is a fund with high returns.

Promoters also try to minimize withdrawals by offering new plans to investors, often where money is frozen for a longer period of time, in exchange for higher returns. The promoter sees new cash flows as investors are told they could not transfer money from the first plan to the second. If a few investors do wish to withdraw their money in accordance with the terms allowed, the requests are usually promptly processed, which gives the illusion to all other investors that the fund is solvent.

[edit] Unraveling of a Ponzi scheme

When a Ponzi scheme is not stopped by the authorities, it sooner or later falls apart for one of the following reasons:
1.The promoter vanishes, taking all the remaining investment money (minus payouts to investors already made).
2.Since the scheme requires a continual stream of investments to fund higher returns, once investment slows down, the scheme collapses as the promoter starts having problems paying the promised returns (the higher the returns, the greater the risk of the Ponzi scheme collapsing). Such liquidity crises often trigger panics, as more people start asking for their money, similar to a bank run.
3.External market forces, such as a sharp decline in the economy (for example, the Madoff investment scandal during the market downturn of 2008), cause many investors to withdraw part or all of their funds.

[edit] Similar schemes
A pyramid scheme is a form of fraud similar in some ways to a Ponzi scheme, relying as it does on a mistaken belief in a nonexistent financial reality, including the hope of an extremely high rate of return. However, several characteristics distinguish these schemes from Ponzi schemes: In a Ponzi scheme, the schemer acts as a "hub" for the victims, interacting with all of them directly. In a pyramid scheme, those who recruit additional participants benefit directly. (In fact, failure to recruit typically means no investment return.)
A Ponzi scheme claims to rely on some esoteric investment approach and often attracts well-to-do investors; whereas pyramid schemes explicitly claim that new money will be the source of payout for the initial investments.
A pyramid scheme typically collapses much faster because it requires exponential increases in participants to sustain it. By contrast, Ponzi schemes can survive simply by persuading most existing participants to reinvest their money, with a relatively small number of new participants.

An economic bubble: A bubble is similar to a Ponzi scheme in that one participant gets paid by contributions from a subsequent participant (until inevitable collapse). A bubble involves ever-rising prices in an open market (for example stock, housing, or tulip bulbs) where prices rise because buyers bid more because prices are rising. Bubbles are often said to be based on the "greater fool" theory. As with the Ponzi scheme, the price exceeds the intrinsic value of the item, but unlike the Ponzi scheme, there is no person misrepresenting the intrinsic value.

Their goal is to possess as much gold as possible. Thier MLM setup of their company has made the company expand very big and global. They get customers money to roll in more gold. And the more SnPs they have the more likely they can get bank loans to expand even further. Not too sure if they take bank loans though, but they are expanding fast.

Basically the gold was increasing 50% every year. Giving 24% p.a. (2%/month) as hibah doesn't cover the rise of gold's price. Lets say you bought the minimum 50g for 10,000 RM. End of the year you will have 12,400 RM. But you need 15,000RM (50%+) to keep the min 50g. You have to top up 2,600 RM more to renew the contract.

Its really like you bought a gold bar for them with your 10,000. The price increase to 15,000 at the end of the year. The 5000 profit is split where you get 2400 and they get 2600. They promised you 2400 (24%) the rest is for them.

Of course gold is no longer increasing like that anymore so its interesting to see what happens.

I also invest in Genneva since a year ago . I only invest with money that I can afford to lose . I heard that some Genneva investors take personal loans to invest . I think this is dangerous if something bad happen . Maybe they do this because they were too greedy .

.

Sadly because some pushy agents told them the strategy of taking loans. Because the hibah return was so much stronger than the loan interest.

I was told by an agent that I could even use Credit Card Loan to get more gold for more returns. That is seriosuly insane! If Genneva collapses so does my life is I do this strategy! Of course I didn't buy from that insane agent.

Only invest what you can lose. The Genneva engine works, and do give the returns they promise, but it can still be a scam.

The next 5 years they are still here making all their customers happy. Only the next 10 years Genneva cashes out and declares bankruptcy, because their board wants to retire and perform the perfect escape plan to another country.

I also have the same opinion . First few years I think Genneva will be OK ... but in the long run this Genneva scheme might collapse .

.

It is really about who had the last musical chair. Those who did not grab one before the music stops is to suffer.

short and simple guys, this is only for people with GREED!

My family been investing with Genneva Malaysia for 2 years ++ and we get like 50% of our capital back. In the case Genneva Malaysia collapse, i still able to sell the gold for 75% of the buying price, so i still be able to earn instead of losing nor earn less if i put in unit trust or FD.

Just sharing my opinion.

After 2 years you still made a net loss..... are you sure the gold bar in your hand is worth 75% ?
Have you even tried to sell the Genneva gold bar ?

Ronnie, yeah tried to ask for selling price and pawning price before.

e.g. invest 100k and earn 50k in 2 years, (average 25k a year)

Then you should invest more.

Anyone heard of another one sigh*....called Caesar Gold?
Similar scheme as Genneva...

doraemon, its not about more or less, its about at my comfortable level. however to be truth, nobody in this world can predict whats going to happen tomorrow.

just sharing my opinion on this company from my past purchased

That is not earning. That is recouping your capital. i.e. you recoup back 50% of your initial investment in 2+ years time.
So by your logic of selling the gold at 75%, meaning to say you earn 25% in 2+ years time.
Then if you do not sell it off, by the logic of getting back 50% every 2 years plus; to recoup back your whole capital takes 4+ years.

If you ask me, looking at that simple maths figure - am not really impressed.

This post has been edited by b00n: May 10 2012, 07:37 PM

no genneva 4 me. spot price are low now, it's a good time to see how they stick to their buy back commitment.

It seems this genneva business is rapidly growing like mushroom in kuchai lama area. Today I saw some more expansion. I wonder how many people will continue investing in it.

Don't think they can run to another country when millions are involved. can be extradited from anywhere they escaped to.

This post has been edited by AUGUST777: May 20 2012, 12:37 AM

If people start to become greedy and invest with genneva with debt, means they take out loans and so on, I don't think this scheme will survive. It'll collapse in long run.

YES THEY ARE NOW IN CHINA, PHILIPPINE AND SINGAPORE, DOING COMBINED SALES OF MORE THAN 7 BILLIONS RM. THINK THE GOVT IN ALL THESE COUNTRIES MUST BE BLIND, LETTING THIS "SCAM" COMPANY TO OPERATE. HA, ALL THESE TEH TARIK TALK, TALKING NONSENSE WITHOUT FACTS. YOU CAN'T CON CHINA, MAN. OR FOR THAT MATTER, SINGAPORE GOVT.!!!!!

Nice analysis

For some, still take the "calculated" risk.... Greed blinds People.

why must i sell when the Genneva biz has expanded to China, Singapore and the Philippines. You make an assumption that it will collapse. But from what i know in the world market, banks are about to collapse. Worst, Bank Negara DO NOT guarantee your savings!!!!!!!!!! This has been passed 5 years ago. What about Bank Gold Account????????? Worse!!! What about EPF?????????????? you are dead. Banks take your money, invest it and earn few 100% and pay you 3.5% per year!!!!!!!! That is rip off. Then they buy all the big buildings in town. Take a drive and look. Look at their financial report. Even EPF who are non financial experts can pay a meager 5.5% per year. Look, what is wrong with 2% per month. And don't you know that the paper money you are holding is a ponzi scheme??? Created by Fed Reserve Bank of USA????????????? And they are not a Govt bank. it is a PRIVATE BANK OWN BY 13 FAMILIES. Just recently JP Morgan, one of the 13 lost 2 billion US$ on the derivatives market. What is derivative market? It is a fraudulent market manipulation of the financial tool used for speculation and manipulation of the total financial market which is MEANT to break the financial system for some purpose to control the world financial system. This may be beyond your imagination. Now let us face it, Genneva is backed by gold you hold, banks you just hold account books. So who is more secure??? Wen the financial collapse comes, nobody is spared. So this applies to all people, not only Genneva. Perhaps Genneva will survive cos by then GOLD WILL DOUBLE OR TRIPLE IN VALUE - that is if you are learned in gold market and its reason why it must rise in price.

Your calculation seems plausible to an ordinary fellow but it has no depths cos your premise of calculation is based on a fallible assumption on which your calculation rests! Sorry my friend, i heard so much argument i felt disgusted so much so that i retire from such shallow analysis. I apologise being so blunt but I don't have any agenda, just pure intellectual argument. To start an analysis, you can't conclude on your premise of argument before you start a debate.From this you have failed in your presentation of your argument. Sorry, good night.

---

Added on May 21, 2012, 11:13 pmwhy must i sell when the Genneva biz has expanded to China, Singapore and the Philippines. You make an assumption that it will collapse. But from what i know in the world market, banks are about to collapse. Worst, Bank Negara DO NOT guarantee your savings!!!!!!!!!! This has been passed 5 years ago. What about Bank Gold Account????????? Worse!!! What about EPF?????????????? you are dead. Banks take your money, invest it and earn few 100% and pay you 3.5% per year!!!!!!!! That is rip off. Then they buy all the big buildings in town. Take a drive and look. Look at their financial report. Even EPF who are non financial experts can pay a meager 5.5% per year. Look, what is wrong with 2% per month. And don't you know that the paper money you are holding is a ponzi scheme??? Created by Fed Reserve Bank of USA????????????? And they are not a Govt bank. it is a PRIVATE BANK OWN BY 13 FAMILIES. Just recently JP Morgan, one of the 13 lost 2 billion US$ on the derivatives market. What is derivative market? It is a fraudulent market manipulation of the financial tool used for speculation and manipulation of the total financial market which is MEANT to break the financial system for some purpose to control the world financial system. This may be beyond your imagination. Now let us face it, Genneva is backed by gold you hold, banks you just hold account books. So who is more secure??? Wen the financial collapse comes, nobody is spared. So this applies to all people, not only Genneva. Perhaps Genneva will survive cos by then GOLD WILL DOUBLE OR TRIPLE IN VALUE - that is if you are learned in gold market and its reason why it must rise in price.

Your calculation seems plausible to an ordinary fellow but it has no depths cos your premise of calculation is based on a fallible assumption on which your calculation rests! Sorry my friend, i heard so much argument i felt disgusted so much so that i retire from such shallow analysis. I apologise being so blunt but I don't have any agenda, just pure intellectual argument. To start an analysis, you can't conclude on your premise of argument before you start a debate.From this you have failed in your presentation of your argument. Sorry, good night.

This post has been edited by AUGUST777: May 21 2012, 11:13 PM

1. You do not know what is ponzi scheme.
2. Value of gold affected by supply and demand, inflation, and the quantity of paper money.
3. If you look at the history, gold price increase when the country have a lot of debts, when the gov create a lot of paper money. Price decrease due to the good economic situation, thus money has better value.
4. Genneva scheme will not be able to survive for long term if their sales maintain the same while the players are increasing provided with no increase of gold price.

well, since you are talking about gold only, why cant you buy from goldsmith? Why genneva? Since everyone would be selling more or less the same price.

Then you will be saying because Genneva has hibah, mubah, lanbah, whatever system it is call as it gives out dividend every month.

So, why does Genneva ask you to buy +25% gold price? You think they want to earn the difference profit or what?
Why do you let genneva earns the 25% difference? Are we not looking to buy cheaper gold with the same amount of gold?

Enlighten me please, me dont know gold investment. Im just curious.

Aye...i can get teh same gold bar at much cheaper rates than Genneva...
its still gold to mitigate whatever that poster has written, minus......

Whos the FOOL who pays himself and calls it Hibah?

Only greedy dolts cant see such schemes..............

Bro ProphetJul,

"You can't help people who INTENTIONALLY wants to get rich SUDDENLY"
+ "A fool and his money are soon parted" (BTW, i'm still wondering how a fool got the $ in the first place )
+ "There's a sucker born every minute" (imagine the exponential numbers with current world population! )

Sometimes no point in trying to logic things out with some people, especially when all the facts/statistics/cow-sense are already stated.
Time will tell whether their perspective/reality is true or not.

Just a thought

Great thoughts especially



Confession: i have been a sucker in life as well ......

Another: Fools never learn from mistakes. The wise makes and learns......NOT TO REPEAT them again!

genneva and goldsmith pricing is about the same. Look at ar-rahnu pricing that is roughly the goldsmith pricing.
http://www.hargaemas.com.my/harga
which work out to be RM182/gram of .999 gold

You can also get the same gold from UOB at
http://www1.uob.com.my/jsp/finance/fin_gol...0/#passfuncoins
which work out to be RM168.2/gram.
You can get cheaper if it is a 100 gram bar brought in bulk from overseas.

So, the target market is those who don;t know where to buy cheap gold. The differences in pricing enable them to give interest/hibah.
I have not seen the actual contract and despite many talking nobody is has come forward to us with the actual contract.
If people dun 1 2 be help, just nothing we can do about it.

In normal gold pricing scenario, customer buy gold at RM200/gram. contract 4 months at 1.5% so in total 6% given out.
At the end of contract, they said they will buy back. At what price this one i'm not sure.
They got free money to speculate on gold.

Exactly, how they make $$ I really don't know.

As I have been given to understand, Genneva will buy back at the price at the inception of the 3 month contract, but this is buyback is only a practise not a guarantee, and then again this practise is only a company practise, not one of their industry's as Genneva is not part of the national goldsmith's association.
Herein lies the risk -the promise to buy back at the price contracted is not guaranteed!

And so, when (current) spot prices have risen or remain above the company's buying cost for a particular batch of gold delivery, it makes good business sense to honour the 3 month contract but when (current) spot prices fall or remain below, it makes bad business sense to buy back from customers at the earlier contracted prices, cuz the company will hv to dig into it's reserves to pay the diff. So how long the company can or is willing to withstand such losses is the question.

But then, this happens with every trading business -sometimes the business makes, sometimes it loses. The company only makes when it's well run & managed over & it's only over the long-term that one can tell.

This post has been edited by ccslink: May 22 2012, 11:01 AM