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 All About Harddisk Thread V4

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dma0991
post Apr 5 2012, 07:53 PM

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IDC: HDD Output To Reach Preflood Levels, But Prices Will Stay At A Postflood Premium
QUOTE
Good news for all you mechanical drive freaks out there: the beleaguered and washed-out hard disk drive industry is on track to pull its head back above water in the second half of the year. Yay! Bad news for all you mechanical drive freaks out there: even though HDD output will fully catch up to previous levels, HDD prices are still going to stay above the "dirt cheap" range they were at before the Thailand floods.

The news comes courtesy of IDC, who says that "HDD vendors are taking advantage of this opportunity to reset prices and recover some of the excessive price erosion that began in 2009." Don't speak business-ease? Basically, HDD manufacturers will be taking a cue from the gas companies and keeping prices at a high level now that they know people will pay the premium. Hopefully they nudge down a bit from where they're at now, though. (We'd like to send our kids to college someday.)

John Rydning, IDC's hard drive guru, claims that the higher price points will let HDD manufacturers pump R&D cash into newfangled HDD technology, but the possibility of a more power-efficient hard disk two years down the line probably won't help to quell the hurt your wallet feels when you're trying to fill a NAS box today.

To be fair, though, HDDs were getting ridiculously cheap before the floods. What are your thoughts about the "reset HDD prices"? Is it a fair move, price gouging, or something in between?

dma0991
post Apr 6 2012, 12:12 AM

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QUOTE(everling @ Apr 5 2012, 08:49 PM)
Just because they seem to be ridiculously cheap, doesn't mean they are ridiculously cheap. Until the manufacturers reveal the actual unit costs, I'm going to assume price gouging. Especially since they were willing to let the prices fall so far in the first place, that price gouging makes their investors happy because of larger profits, and Seagate has already indicated that they prefer to keep the prices high.
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I'm pretty sure that the manufacturers could recoup some of their losses by selling them in large volume and cheaper price as opposed to small volume and higher price. As long as there is a steady drop in price, I wouldn't mind if they want to keep the prices steady for a while. If it remains constant for the next year or more, then they are shooting themselves in the foot. With the current price, their profit margin is huge. If they could sell it at the price before the flood, that would mean that their manufacturing costs aren't that high as no company would sell their product for less than what it needs to produce them.
dma0991
post Apr 6 2012, 09:25 PM

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QUOTE(kelvyn @ Apr 6 2012, 09:44 AM)
but, if all the hdd manufacturers agrees to sell them at higher price, we as the consumers will have no choice. Of course, we will be putting of any purchase as long as possible. But there will come a time when the need arises and even at the higher price, we still have to get them.
It a matter of who will be able to wait it out....
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I don't think they can come to an agreement that they should sell at this price which is higher. There exists a monopoly between the big players like Seagate and Western Digital but they are almost equal, not the 90/10 kind of monopoly we would see with Intel/AMD. HDD vendors are still competing with each other and sooner or later they will reduce the price to cut each other.

They price it so high, it has a domino effect on other vendors as well. OEMs that make laptops would either have to profit less or pass down the costs to the consumer, both of which they do not want. They would surely want their profit to increase as well and passing down the costs would only make it more expensive and less likely for someone to buy it. SSDs with increasing capacity are posing a threat to HDDs and it is only a matter of time when we would reach to a point where a reasonably priced SSD at a certain capacity would be a better choice than a HDD, if they decide to be arrogant about it and peg the HDD price sky high.
dma0991
post Apr 7 2012, 07:16 PM

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QUOTE(harryfoo @ Apr 7 2012, 06:52 PM)
I thought people use SSD as their boot disk only, why you need 240GB?
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No written rule that SSDs should only be used as a boot drive. It can be used for storage, just that it is still too expensive to consider it as a form of storage and we have yet to reach 1TB SSD that is affordable for mainstream users.
dma0991
post Apr 7 2012, 07:45 PM

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QUOTE(St3ph @ Apr 7 2012, 07:30 PM)
Good Day To All Fellow Forumers,

I've a few questions which has been bothering me for sometime and here it is :-

1. I've an INTEL865PERL Motherboard [PENTIUM 4 3.0] which supports SATA 1.5 And i've also bought a hard disk, WESTERN DIGITAL CAVIAR BLACK 1 TB.

2. Alright ,the problem lies here. Is WD CBlack famously known for having lots of bad sectors? I'm using HDD Regenerator and it's showing 100++ bad sectors [and this isn't the 1st time to have a 100 bad sectors, which means that i've also scanned it 3-4 times (formatted 3-4 times in case you're wondering what i meant) also showing 100 bad++ bad sectors, sometimes more and sometimes less]

3. Does SATA cable affects the speed of the Hard drives? for e.g. CBlack is at 6GB SATA, so does better quality SATA cable proves to have a beter speed? and is it compatible with the motherboard i'm using coz it's SATA 1.5 ?

4. the temperature for the hard drives always stayed at 39-42 degrees, is it kinda normal?

5. lastly, correct me if i'm mistaken for it, but i thought hard drives are just plug and play devices? the reason i asked is becoz i've seen from other forums saying that if we're using windows XP, we need to download some program to make it compatible with the hard drives, [something to do with RAID]

6. are there any other better brands which have low chances of getting bad sectors, quiet and smooth as well as affordable ?

Thanks and sorry for the long paragraphs smile.gif
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3. No. HDDs aren't fast enough that it bottlenecks your SATA port. It is compatible.
4. It is normal.
5. That might have to do with the Advanced Format drives. Nothing to worry about if you don't do, it will still work regardless of whether you do it or not.
6. So far any brand works for me and I usually stick with cheaper drives as I wouldn't pay the premium for a WD Black.

QUOTE(harryfoo @ Apr 7 2012, 07:36 PM)
Yeah, but average user won't go for that.
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Average users aren't going for that not because they don't want, it is because they can't afford it or it is still too expensive to be the common standard that HDDs are right now.
dma0991
post Apr 7 2012, 08:00 PM

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QUOTE(St3ph @ Apr 7 2012, 07:47 PM)
Thanks for the reply.

In regards to the sentence quoted above, any recommendations? HITACHI?
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None. I've used Seagate, Hitachi, Samsung and Western Digital. All are working without any problems.
dma0991
post Apr 13 2012, 11:21 PM

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QUOTE(whatsayyou @ Apr 13 2012, 10:51 PM)
seagate 1tb (internal) selling for RM319 at jb pc fair. ok to buy? any seagate models that should be avoided/known to be problematic?

cant decide between internal or external. i just want to store movies only. thinking external better, cause can unplug when not using, rather than letting it spin 24/7. what say you guys?
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Get an external would be fine. Just put it in a safe place where you can't accidentally drop it.
dma0991
post Jun 4 2012, 01:22 AM

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QUOTE(-kytz- @ Jun 4 2012, 12:56 AM)
Hello guys, worthwhile to get Hybrid HDD like the Seagate Momentus XT? What sort of advantage do I get actually? smile.gif
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You get more storage and some speed that SSD offers. You won't get the best of both worlds, it won't have the capacity of a HDD and won't be as fast as a SSD. Personally I don't think it is worth it.
dma0991
post Jun 4 2012, 01:42 AM

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QUOTE(-kytz- @ Jun 4 2012, 01:28 AM)
Thanks smile.gif It's about RM300 for a 500GB Momentus XT. Just wondering whether it's worth it or not. RM270 can get 1TB HDD (normal one) hmm.gif
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It might make some sense if it is for a laptop, but I'll still go with SSDs for the durability factor, moving around and dropping the laptop by accident is not a good thing. For desktop, a SSD and HDD combo is still the best. 128GB these days is quite cheap, 256GB is getting more affordable and when that happens HDD as a primary drive is a thing of the past. When you're comparing speed, there is none that would come close to a SSD.

As for storage space, 500GB is a lot but I have no use for that much space as a primary drive yet. I usually would rather push my data to a secondary HDD, for easier formatting and I can access the data from the HDD from any PC since it has no installation or OS files in it.
dma0991
post Jun 29 2012, 09:39 PM

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QUOTE(hafni_matt @ Jun 29 2012, 09:30 PM)
i just check out this thread to find some info on what hdd to buy..but after reading the discussion make me a bit scared about the reliabiliity concern..as far as i know none of my freind having problem with hard disk before..so is the vibrating and the corrupt thing is normal or rare case?
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Normal vibrations hardly ever matter to a HDD. The HDD itself vibrates to a certain extent and it is definitely within its operating specs. What matters is a sudden shock or strong blow to a HDD. Let's just say that you throw a laptop with a running HDD on the ground, it is very likely that you'll have a dead HDD from the impact when it falls. Corruption happens but it doesn't happen to each and every HDD, even if it did, only a small portion will be corrupted and will outlive the usable lifespan of the HDD.

No HDD is ever that reliable, even SSDs which are marketed as very reliable compared to HDDs are showing some reliability issues. What matters most is that if you want your data to be safe, make backups. If you want it very safe, make backups of backups and keep that copy of the backup elsewhere.
dma0991
post Jun 29 2012, 11:50 PM

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QUOTE(lex @ Jun 29 2012, 11:38 PM)
Actually vibrations do matter to the HDD. That's because the read/write head is actually floating on a cushion of air, and the armature are not 100% rigid. If ever the vibrations (or knocks) is strong enough to cause the head to touch, scrape and/or crash onto the delicate platter surface spinning at high speeds (nowadays 7200rpm is pretty normal for majority of desktop HDDs), then that could create many problems including bad sectors and drive failure (due to read/write head damage). hmm.gif
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It certainly does but I'm quite certain modern HDDs are able to park the read/write head in case of regular vibrations, minimizing the damage if any exists. This isn't the case if a stronger impact happens and the HDD can't react just as fast. I just think that many are just worried that their HDDs would die even at the slightest vibration.
dma0991
post Jul 21 2012, 03:31 PM

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QUOTE(hengguowei @ Jul 21 2012, 02:49 PM)
Which is a safer way of storing photos? In a HDD in a computer or an External HDD? Thanks.
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There is no safest way to store valuable data, this is because there is just too many factors to take into account that can kill the HDD. First level, do a RAID 1 Mirror with two HDD which reduces the chance of HDD premature death but doesn't prevent the possibility of both HDDs dying which can happen in a lightning strike for example. Second level, do a third backup in an external HDD along with the RAID 1 mentioned earlier to overcome the problem mentioned earlier but then there is another problem, what if your house catches on fire?

Third level, do what I've already mentioned in first and second level, and do a fourth backup in an external and store it elsewhere that is not your house. That is as safe as it gets for a consumer but to consider 100% safe isn't likely, I bet there is a 0.00001% chance that all will die from whatever cause and you'll still lose your data.
dma0991
post Jul 21 2012, 03:59 PM

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QUOTE(hengguowei @ Jul 21 2012, 03:44 PM)
Argh, ok. 4 HDD in total. Wow. Ok. Doomsday will kill all 4 copies sadly. doh.gif
Anyway, WD3TB is reliable? hmm.gif
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You only have 1 in 2 chances that WD is not reliable since the only players left in the game is Western Digital and Seagate. Not much of a choice there, just pick whatever you think is reliable and keep your fingers crossed.
dma0991
post Jul 21 2012, 04:05 PM

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QUOTE(blacktubi @ Jul 21 2012, 04:03 PM)
My Samsung F3 having great vibration recently.
Wonder should I prepare to switch sad.gif

Finger crossed
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What do you mean by great vibration? Too little information to know anything about it.
dma0991
post Jul 21 2012, 09:24 PM

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QUOTE(blacktubi @ Jul 21 2012, 08:32 PM)
Bios report nothing and I can't do any bad sector check as SMART is having problem on this mobo.

There are clicking sound when powered on then the vibration start, almost as strong as phone.
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Clicking sound can be a lot of thing, Click of Death or just a routine thing for the HDD. My laptop HDD which I replaced with a larger capacity will click 1-5 seconds ever so often when it is running. This has been going on for more than a year and there are no issues with it, probably a false alarm. As for the vibration, it is normal for a HDD to vibrate a little bit when in operation. Probably it is best that you don't take the chance and get a new HDD while leaving this one for less important stuff or wait till it dies for RMA, which might be a few years from now.
dma0991
post Jul 22 2012, 10:53 PM

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QUOTE(dwks @ Jul 22 2012, 09:33 PM)
can someone recommend me some external harddisk?
prefer 2.5" , large space.
budget max RM400.
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No recommendations because all external HDDs are pretty much generic, not much difference from one brand to another. Just stick to well known brands and get one that has USB 3.0 support.
dma0991
post Jul 22 2012, 11:57 PM

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QUOTE(hermit23 @ Jul 22 2012, 11:44 PM)
Got a question guys, need advice or help. I just bought a new laptop that has 2 slots for hard drives. Can i take my hard drive from the old laptop and use it in the new laptop?

Meaning the os i will run from the new hard drive, but programs installed on my old laptop can it still be used once i transfered it?
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You can use the old HDD but if has the OS in it previously, you will have to format it. If the programs in the old HDD is a standalone software that does not need to be installed, it will run but if it is a type that needs to be installed, it won't work. The registry values for the programs you've installed on the old HDD is not present in the new HDD. There is of course ways to make it work but a lot of work and a reinstall would probably be easier and less time consuming.
dma0991
post Jul 24 2012, 12:15 AM

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QUOTE(hengguowei @ Jul 23 2012, 09:54 PM)
Argh, damn it. I merely glanced through that webpage then I went to the shop and the shop people told me they recommend Seagate more than WD so I took Seagate instead. I totally forgot about the data. doh.gif Let's hope I'm the lucky ones. rolleyes.gif
Actually I realise I have 1x 320GB Seagate Barracuda running in my comp. Previously, it was used in a file server running 24/7. Then after they defunct the server, I took it and used it on my comp again running 24/7. It has been running for quite a number of years now and still working very well. hmm.gif The current file server in my office runs on WD Black though. hmm.gif
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I'm doubtful about Seagate. Their warranty is only 1 year, which I think is too short for a HDD. I may not like warranties but having a warranty this short doesn't sound like they are confident with their product. Then again, I don't like WD Green drives very much with their power saving features but has 2 year warranty so it can be very indecisive on which to choose since we only have 2 companies left in the world manufacturing HDDs. wink.gif
dma0991
post Nov 11 2012, 10:36 PM

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QUOTE(Boldnut @ Nov 11 2012, 08:46 PM)
ssd more reliable in theory only, yet to be proven in long term testing biggrin.gif
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It's the method that SSDs read and write that causes the NAND chips to fail after some time. The method is applicable to all current SSDs and it will not change unless there is a new method of storing bits. What SSD offers is durability which HDDs don't. For example, you would worry if you've dropped your external HDD but you wouldn't worry in the least if you've dropped your thumb drive. That's the advantage that solid state memory provides, besides the speed.

SSDs usually have a bad reputation when it comes to reliability only when it a new product released in the market. It will take months to actually fix the problems and create a very reliable product. Sandforce controllers initially had a bad reputation but after time of tweaking the firmware, things have changed and SSDs are no longer causing instability. There are many methods being used to ensure that NAND memory wouldn't wear out as fast. Some of which uses additional swap space in case some part dies, which is why some Sandforce drives are labeled 120GB instead of 128GB. That's just one of many methods currently implemented in current SSDs.

SSDs wear out as you use them but the amount of read/write that you would have to do is a lot before it shows fatigue. Just to give you an example of how much of read/write must be done, go here. This should pretty much sum up that SSDs are quite reliable in the long term as this test emulates unrealistic amounts of read/write that a normal user will do throughout the lifespan of the SSD.

As for HDDs, they haven't been too reliable as well, at least the 3TB ones. I agree that HDDs of the past have a good lifespan. I even have a few 40GB IDE HDDs that are still strong but the same can't be said about modern HDDs since the data density per platter has increased. With only 2 competitors left in the game it isn't good news either since they control how much HDDs should be priced and no price wars. With the reduced warranty period on most models, Seagate 1 year, WD 2 years, they're taking advantage on the fact that you don't have a choice when it comes to mass storage.
dma0991
post Nov 12 2012, 12:47 AM

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QUOTE(Boldnut @ Nov 12 2012, 12:25 AM)
they are still tuning firmware as we speak now. SSD technology may be a lot more reliable these days than a few years ago. The benchmark are not showing any data in mass quantity testing for >10yrs. short term hard test =/= long testing. That why I said in theory they "should" be more reliable. brows.gif

So I dont think I will be the one to be soo quick to jump to say "SSD is definite more reliable than HDD". IMO there are still a grey line between these 2 storage technologies on long term realiabilty.  rolleyes.gif

u are right about the increase density of the HDD might have the impact of its reliability, we do not know if they could last as long as the old ones but it is still a >40yrs old technology that is proven.
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It can't show a test conducted in 10 years time for obvious reasons. The time span of the test is shorten by making it do read/writes that far more than a person would normally do. SSDs will not wear out if you don't use them, if you use them a lot, it will accelerate the wear. Refer back to the charts on the link, Crucial M4 64GB - 769TB, Corsair Force 3 120GB - 1015TB, Intel 520 60GB - 868TB.

These SSDs have been used more than the average person might do in the SSDs lifetime. They're writing to the entire SSD and flushing all the information, repeatedly till it dies. Not the kind of usage scenario a normal person would do. It isn't indicative of which brand is better though as the sample size of the test is too small.

SSDs aren't really that reliable compared to HDDs but at least SSDs are more likely to have a "graceful death" where it will die slowly. With HDDs, its a different matter. They are more prone to dying without notice and never start again. SSDs are never meant to replace HDDs for mass storage because of cost issues but it will complement it on many uses. Most new users aren't doing justice to their rig by using a SSD. It is probably one of the best upgrades one could do.

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