kadajawi, u can go to malaysian customs website for info n howmuch the tax n go to maa website to make it easy for u to understand the tax.
Basically for every car below 1800 in malaysia, they have to pay 75% excise duty n 10% sales duty including prtn n perodua. But for ckd, they have to pay extra 10% import duty while cbu have to pay 30% import duty.
For mpv between 1500cc to 1800cc, excise duty is 65% n sales tax is 10%. Cbu n ckd import tax is flat rate at 30% for cbu, 10% for ckd for any segment n any capacity engine according to customs n maa.
Fyi, avanza 1.3 paying less tax than our local alza n exora coz for 1500cc n below mpv, ckd import tax is waved n only pay for 60% for excise duty n 10% sales tax n yet they expensive, even have less 5% tax than our local.
Ckd only 10% higher tax than local, but the price,is higher. Can anyone justify vios will be the same price as persona if only pay 10% more tax than persona? For me, it just becoz of cif n also toyota want high profit.

Generally,all local cars need to pay 85% tax, while exora n alza paying 75% tax.
All ckds' just add 10% n cbus 30%. Thats why nowadays conti n korean are cars cheaper than japs in msia such as fiesta, forte, recently launch citroen c4 n etc coz they r just take normal profit margin n add all the taxes. U just think how civic 2.0 can be far expensive than cbu pug 308thp156 n citroen c4thp156 when the conti offer more equipment level n better pwrtrain dept than hondas even civic is ckd? Same as lancer gt 2.0 cbu versus civic 2.0 n altis 2.0(both ckd, suppose to pay 20% less tax) but get same pricing in malaysia.

So kadajawi, just go to website i mentioned before. So, 19% in germany oppose 85% tax on locals in malaysia, what do u think? So, how much is exora bold without tax? I leave it to u to do the calculation.

---

Added on December 20, 2011, 4:40 amand why toyota@daihatsu gave perodua rebadged passo sette@ luminas.
My opinion, 1st profit. Why profit coz will jeoperdize avanza sales? The question is how much avanza sales before n after the arrival of grandlivina n exora? So, fyi, and i believe everybody is well informed that sales of myvi in malaysia only already beat sales of sirion n passo in entire japan, can u imagine that, myvi sales is better than what they are getting from their own country. If u ask me where gets the fact, just google, if lazy, search in paultan, there is a special post on that.
Tyota own daihatsu, daihatsu has stakes in perodua. Not only daihatsu gain profit coz they r the shareholders, n u must know that this is rebadge exercise, so that perodua has to pay rebadged royalty as agreement. N the mother off all profit gainer, toyota coz they own daihatsu.
So, killing 2 birds in 1 stone ha..gain profit from alza n at the same time has extra bonus selling avanza since not rugi for toyota, even assemble avanza at perodua. Kira side bonus jelah, klu dia xkuar avanza, mgkin bkal pembeli avanza akn beli glivina@exora. Alang2,mkn sini,mkn sana.

That is how business minded think. The same thing happen to mitsu, lancer sales loose bad with civic,altis even fote. Cannot sell well, prtn want to rebadged, opportunity come, no need pening2 nak hantar kete cbu byk2 kat stok yard, dah kena bayo cif, so duk goyang kaki, dpt mkn royalti dr inspira..tp klu lancer top seller kat msia,jgn hrpler mitsu nk bg.

---

Added on December 20, 2011, 4:50 amif ford smax double the price of exora in msia, so meaning that, even compete with the same local tax apply to local cars, they r still expensive coz import duty only 30% from value of the car without tax. So, if smx cost u 160k, that is already including everything plus accesories,road tax, insurance n all insurance,profit dealer, so it supposed to be around 18k max( assuming value of the car 60k in malaysia before all the tax n dealer profit . Etc). So, 160k minus 18k, u got rm142k, which is still expesive than locals.this is same level playing fill condition where smax being tax the same as locals.
By the, the price of smax 160 just a sample coz somebody say before it price twice exora in msia,lazy to google for the price.

This post has been edited by mat79: Dec 20 2011, 04:50 AM

they are many things that need to be considered n especially tax around the world. Its like in uk, thay have vat, plus here,plus there, n they got the actual price, n buying cars outside especially in us, u can even bargain the selling price coz its up to the dealer to reduce their own profit to be competitive, i've not been there, but my sis staying there for 4 years working owning mazda 6.there,but sold it before coming back to malaysia.
Have u been working or living in germany before? Just asking coz i'm not really regular forumer here, just regular reader n maybe just miss out some info about u.
Its like singapore, their tax is not that high, but coe alone for exora mline auto cost u 44k sgd. U can check through their customs website also but easily obtain based car price coz they put all of it visibily on the net.
Like euro,even tax n insurance(normally they call it running cost)is based on co2. Many of them can owned beemer but not many that owned it can run it coz the running cost too high..
By the way,they used ron 95.

kadajawi, despite all the crazy taxes impose in car, i still feel bless as msian, we still get cheap education n cheap health care n cheap housing n even food(the living cost), not the cheapest in the world, but cheap than many others(rm 1 for a treatment, i dunno bout german whether can get the same price for medication)

kadajawi, u need also to refer to calculations given by customs malaysia, u can fork out the info n download the pdf.

Excise duty even for import cbu@ckd is at the same rate, the problem is the term that they use.
For import, the term is import excise duty n for local is local excise duty. In langkawi, it is free import tax n sales tax (can u see the term import tax). So, generally, local cars still has excise duty implemented n only sales duty is taken back.

About the price of japs @ foreign cars in langkawi, u need also be informed that it has cif(cost of insurance n freight) included while being local, there is no cif. The base price also not including dealer profit. Normaly dealer profit is calculate after calculating the tax.
To simplify things, If cbu, the calculation is price + all taxes(import duty+import excise duty+ sales tax)+ dealer profit = selling price.

For local is price+all taxes (local excise duty + sales tax) + dealer profit = selling price.

Selling price + additional accessories price + registration + insurance = on the road price in malaysia excluding langkawi n labuan.

Please take note that import excise duty=local excise duty, only the term used is different, but it give different effect in law n regulations.

The 300% tax that been around n still being a hot topic among malaysian already been revised in 2005 n implemented in 2006.

Being a free lance before,selling local cars, managed to get info on dealer profit, basically, dealer profit for proton cars is around 10% +-.(not salesman profit, but dealer profit n also not proton's profit per car)

i give u some highlight to count the tax.

Car value including cif x import duty rate = import duty.

(Car value including cif + import duty)x excise duty rate = excise duty.

(car value including cif+import duty+excise duty) x sales tax rate = sales tax.

For locals

car value x excise duty rate = excise duty

(car value+excise duty) x sales tax rate = sales tax

for base car prices in malaysia, cannot get the info, but let use base car prices in singapore using singapore dollar, which is the nearest comparison we can do.

For vios g auto(dunno whether same spec in malaysia), base cost price is 13270 sgd.

For exora m-line auto(same as malaysia,i think), base cost price is 14121 sgd.

Please take note that this base price is on may 2011, please refer to onemotoring.com.sg to get the latest one. And dealer profit will be vary.

Hopefully this will help u to figure out the calculation.

---

Added on December 22, 2011, 1:34 amto get best 0-100 timing is not to engage D, but engage L mode.

L mode is actually sport drive@ sometimes referring to low gearing, L in cvt is not the same as L in at. In mitsu cvt, some use L,some use S letter, n in previous mini cooper n bmw, they used SD to replace L.

In L mode, the engine will rev up 20% higher that D mode, so u will achieve high torque earlier than than D mode, example in D, u rev at 1700 rpm, then slot L, with the same throttle applied, the rev will climb to 2040 rpm which is where 205nm of torque already available. If in the mode,@ 1700rpm, the torque is around 150-160nm if i not mistaken.

This post has been edited by mat79: Dec 22 2011, 01:34 AM

that is one advantage of cvt where no other gearbox has that, its like overboost mode.

one more thing,it supposed to have different start sound different than campro@cps coz campro@cps used old cable plug design, while cfe use coil on plug, same as others iafm based unit.
The start sound shud be the same as any coil on plug based engine, except for idling sound. N the ac compressor is sound louder that any japs offering from outside, but inside, the ac compressor is not that loud. But if u come across with pug 308 @ 308thp, u can hear louder ac compressor sound.

---

Added on December 22, 2011, 1:48 ami mentioned its like overboost, not really overboost, it is based on gbox, not engine. Others that has overboost function like mini cooper s, but it is on the engine, overboost the turbine, so that u get higher torque than standard engine offering but temporarily.
But the objective is nearly the same, to reach higher torque as earlier than normal drive mode, only that, in cvt, it doesnt increase the figure output, but u get to max torque earlier than normal drive.
Hope u understand that, but remember, engaging L will incurr higher fc than normal D mode, of course, u need to trade off extra power with fc :-). The best thing, it is not temporarily like mini overboost function.

---

Added on December 22, 2011, 1:59 amand one more thing, cfe also couple with cvvt not vvt as in the engine slidesshow in the some blogs in the net n new cat con, n it is euro 4/5 ready, same as iafm+ in saga flx that actually has the same upgrade as in cfe, except minus cvvt n borg wagner turbine n added iafm@sometimes known as vim@vis(only the acronym is different, but the tech is the same, method of applying it differently according to manufacturers)
the iafm+ engine is not merely the same as iafm engine in persona elegance, the different is not noticable, but u can look up at the cat con, if y manage to open the heat cover, it has different design n also the exhaust sytem diameter is the same as in cps, not like old iafm.

Hope this will help.

This post has been edited by mat79: Dec 22 2011, 01:59 AM

yup,it doesnt alter the torque curve, but it does increase the rpm due to not Shorter, but lower ratio. U can achieve its faster, i mean the time to achieve is faster by the same throttle input. I refer to prtn@punch cvt, n the old one was used in mini n bmw when it was still under zf. The characteristic is like that, u can check official documentations from zf@mini cooper.
Cvt vt2 in flx n vt3 in exora bold cfe is the upgrade cvt from cvt vt1f which sharing the same system n characteristic but plus enhancement on pwr n torque output n also reliability.

About old honda city cvt, u can search from honda since it is honda made the cvt, not punch@zf, n we are talking bout cvt in bold.

I said that u can achieve better timing in 0-100kmh, not the top speed. At which hp n torque by rpm u can achieve 100kmh? Is it 5750 rpm?
Actually no need pedal to metal, just floor at 4k rpm, enough coz this is cvt, not manual or at that u need to pedal to metal reaching the peak hp before shifting to the next gear.

By the way, the peak hp for cfe is @5k rpm, n if u rev beyond it, u r overrevving it. I think @5k rpm already give u around 185kmh+-, no need to speed more than that on the road i believe

If u find it hard to find the document for vt1f@vt2@vt3 , u can go to other blog in the internet where they already provide the document n discuss it.

I just call it LIKE over boost coz it give u the boost than D mode@more pickup. Like i said, try out urself. Applied the same throttle input in D mode, switch to L. if u have flx, try this out, maintain the rev at 3.5k rpm, switch to L, it will jump nearly 4k rpm which the peak torque already available, but with the same throttle input.

It actually stated in cvt vt1f documentation about what i explained. And the figure 20% is from the document. Happy browsing other blog n reading the document.

Anyway, sharing some info on punch@prtn cvt coz i believe not many bother to search for it, not for argument.

If u read what i said earlier, i just call it overboost (not the real term, but just used to word to describe it) coz it boosted the power(not changing the torque or powerband), it is not really overboost, or maybe just call it sport drive, are u agree with that term?if not, then shud blame bmw n mini coz calling it sport drive.

N never mention it altering any torque curve or adding any torque to the original output. I just mention, when u floor 1700rpm in D mode, when u shift to L, it will increase the rev to 2k rpm, this is for explaination purpose only on 20% increase of rev.

They r those on flx already try out going up to genting.

If cannot find it, just go to www.funtastickodesign.wordpress.com, look for older post coz alreadyin discussion few weeks back, i think.

---

Added on December 22, 2011, 4:32 amn if i not mistaken, according to 30++ page explanation on vt1f, on the blog only a simple one, i have a complete one, if in L mode already reached it peak, it will enter the overdrive mode automatically(so, u still can gain same top speed in D mode).

There are many things in zf@punch based cvt that are really interesting to know such it only operate in full cvt mode if throttle input not more than 85%, if more, it will turn to slow sat mode, meaning that, if u pedal to metal, it is not in full cvt mode anymore,it is called slow sat mode.

---

Added on December 22, 2011, 4:37 amah, forget to mention, lancer only has L@S.
City cvt, not really interest me to read bout it cause they actually already discard it in new city(not really new), even jazz in malaysia.

---

Added on December 22, 2011, 4:40 amialways forgot to mentioned,i already shift to L when driving exora bold cfe@ 120kmh, n already driving it from 0-160kmh in L mode, but the traffic got away n it was raining during that.

---

Added on December 22, 2011, 4:50 amand one more thing, in sat mode when in D, u also can select L while in sat, and its still 6 simulated gears, but each gear will be also 20% higher rev than sat in D mode.

R u confius with L in cvt with the one in AT??? coz actually, even in L mode, 100kmh is just around 2.5 -2.7k rpm only,but in D mode, it is lower than that.

This post has been edited by mat79: Dec 22 2011, 04:50 AM

read carefully vervain, its LIKE overboost FUNCTION (just an impression, not really a button or overboost) :-).

Em, bout cvt problem, maybe u can look up from fl/flx thread.if i not mistaken, Its not really a problem that can break your cvt, n its already been recall back by prtn. The change the clucth pump with the updated one coz there are owners complaining that when they drive really slow, it tend to jerk a little bit. Thats all. Not every owner experience it, but prtn has recall all to change it, n its not a problem anymore i think.

Bout reliability, i think punch already present the paperwork on their cvt in a world conference(cant remember what is the name of conf)n they already tested it for 250k km for reliability.

But people never asked question on prius n corolla altis cvt? Sylphy perhaps or lancer? Even honda use cvt outside, only in msia they dont. Oh, toyota wish valvematic 2.0 use cvt too. Just weird, when other makes use cvt, never question it. Just read out about punch powertrain history first, get knowing who r they. This cvt is outsourced, not made by prtn. The same as manual flx that used getrag trans, people still question it.
I think beemer if rebadge as prtn also people will question it :-). anyway, i think guinea pig is suitable than white mouse, just kiddin' :-)

from what i know, the slight delay is due to punch cvt function known as creep n crawler to compensate rubberband effect to make it easier when u park ur car or do slow manouver. Previously has knocking complaint for this function but punch rectifies it by minimizing the clutch drag at standstill...if u try to park inspira cvt,oppose to cfe cvt, punch is easier to control coz in lancer,the car hesistate slight on pedal input,but when it start moving,it suddenly lurk or jump to the front. Not a big problem actually when u learn how to cntrl it.
One more thing, in cvt, we need to give input to the ngine first, then cvt will choose appropriate gear. Plus with dbw tech,u know a little lag will appear.
If u notice, in normal drive, if u look at rpm, normally u just floor the pedal up to 2krpm, after reaching the designation rpm, then the mpv start moving. The slight delay is not really will cause u trouble coz it is nearly unnoticable, nd when u look at the tacho, u already past legal limit intown@60kmh...i think actually what happen in ur drive is whether u pedal to metal during that time to test the pickup@half pedal input. It just my guess,coz by pedal to metal, u thought that the mpv will jump off from straight line like manual high performance turbo car. Still remember when fifth gear member driving evo 10 couple with sst(twin cluctch), when stoping the car n then pedal to metal, the car hesitate,there is a slight delay cousing the late timing compare to its rival, imprezza. Fun to watch thou compare to overatted top gear.

em,based my own test drive, this baby easy to reach up to 160kmh, since full torque untill 4k rpm,u have enough torque to propel the mpv at that speed without taking consideration the coefficient drag n lift. Its only a little bit slower reaching speed after that,but not that slow. 185kmh easily to reach by anyone, and media test last week mentioned that personally it can go beyond 190kmh coz when one media driven flx se@190kmh, they still cannot overtake bold, and they are still far away infront of flx se@190kmh.
Actually,managed to chat with media delegation when they break for lunch at hyatt.
Chat with media delegations was fun coz they are really friendly, but meeting the pwrtrain engineers, h n t members are really precious moment.
Whether iafm+ or cfe, they really put hard works to it, countless man hours of trial and testing, a lot of constraints they met, but at last,they managed to do it. Some of them just comeback from spain, some from swiss n even some from lotus uk.

Some nice advice from them, never try to modified the engine coz it already been at optimum performance n reliability, need to remember, if u put more power to it, u will reduce the life span of cvt since it can only take max 220nm. 205nm is the safe spot to ensure its reliability and they already test it up to 250k km. Thats why it takes long time for them to launch the engine.

So,wish the best for them.

yup, can reach, but the test car still new, under 1k km if i not mistaken mentioned by the media. The engine felt a little bit tight due to still new. They believed,after few k mileage, it will perform better. N iafm+ in flx se is better even compare to cps when they tested it at karak highway interm of power delivery across rev range,maybe due to its light weight, but far better than 1.6 fl previously.

And flx 1.3 can manage speed at 185 kmh. By the way, iafm+ n cfe comply with euro step 5. One of pwrtrain dpt, euro step is not all about co2 output, actually other 3 components, nox, carbon monoxide n hc. Then co2 output will reduce, but still depend on type of fuel u r using(ron and euro step fuel, mlaysia only euro 2 fuel).
Non official figure co2 for cfe when they test it in europe is below 150kg.

yup,exora bold if i not mistaken will be available in uk next year. Basically, evry improvement of cfe engine is at iafm+ except vvt, turbo n those related to turbo. Cooling also been improved n cat con also diff than old one,same as cfe. By the way, exhaust diameter n mufler for iafm+ the same as cps,only length is diff due to car design.

as being explain by roomate, some add, ecu also new for iafm+, 32bit torque based easyu ecu conti ag, same as cfe n persona elegance, but 100% new calibration,diff than in elegance. Iafm @2krpm, achieve 85-90% of torque before reach the peak @ 4k rpm.

peet, my father 33 years old ford escort gt 1.3 twin choke webber carburator boot closed with nice thud than a vios or even camry. So, does it counts? :-). Even my fathers neighbour own 1963 merc has better thud sound when closing the boot than my father's ford, n even better than japs premium cars.
If u say germans marque, european counter parts, i have to say yes, but if with japs, aiyoo, it is the same. Even closing door sound the same. The thing that we closed, the sound not only depend on how much rubber or how much sound insulation u put inside it, it also depend on vacuum level of the car, the wind resistant n etc. Diff cars has diff design. Sometimes even some top marques has cheap scale sound when closing the door@boot, thats why they started to use auto hidrolick door or boot, just push the button,it closed on its own. Thats why freed swing door feel premium n never ever hears and old van closing sound due to that. But if u have to close it manually,it is the same maa...so, there is price to pay.
Something to ponder,If compare estima 20 years, why not compare it with avanza, innova n wish currently? They suppose done better coz estima already 20 years. Is it really hard for toyota to make it sound better @ no sound at all after 20 years? Hua...hua....

avanza 1.5 kot rm70k++

common cut cost measure,even apply to vw. It is cheaper to outside countries than malaysia, if look at omv price@docket price,polo tsi is more expensive than exora,but not that expensive,just couple of k. Cheap german cars only cheap for germans n european people coz their purchasing power is higher than us.
But exora is an mpv, polo is small car b segment. Saga flx 80k anyone? Nope, it wont be sold even a single unit i think.

dont get me wrong kadajawi, what i mean is that if we want prtn to have nearly same quality of cars, we need to be prepared to pay at the same premium price as well. Thats why if saga(base line model) want to have a quality like polo(likely base line model for vw),saga need to be priced atleast 80k, but the problem is,is there anyone want to buy saga at 80k? The same as exora, is there anyone want to buy exora @ 120k atleast? Even when exora prime price at rm88k which happened cheaper than innova(same tax as locals for innova),but with bundle of goodies n leathers and safety gadgets, but people still say it is expensive. People only accept exora prime at the same price of exora bold cfe @rm80k.

That is why it is really hard for prtn to make everyone happy coz price is really important part for people to buy prtn cars. They dont care even when prtn come with sedan that has 10 airbags with the same price of vios, they still buy vios coz for them,the emblem itself is value for money. Prtn with 10 airbags with the same price as vios will be label as overcharge n pricey n etc...

---

Added on January 7, 2012, 2:01 pmops,forgot to mentioned, agreed on hefty tax in malaysia compare to outside.

This post has been edited by mat79: Jan 7 2012, 02:01 PM

erm,actually, cfe has more torque than cps from 1k-2k rpm, u can refer to torque graph. If u want to get optimum fuel efficiency, u shud drive below 2k rpm before the tubo unit kick in coz when it kicks, more fuel will be injected to perform complete combustion coz air ratio already diff(a lot of air coz forced induction), n fuel ratio need to balance it, so,it is known as air fuel ratio.

About feeling delay or not moving,it is due to cvt misconception by those who are not familiarize with cvt. If u get uncomfortable with cvt behavior,thats why sat button is created.

In cvt, rpm meter easily jump up n speedo is not following the rpm until it reach desire speed@designated rpm.

If u want to have feeling rpm n speedo move accordingly together, just set sat on.

To said cfe torque at rpm 1k-1999k rpm is low than cps unit,is totally wrong. 90% of torque for cps only available@3k rpm which is only 135nm@3k rpm,which cfe already reach nearly 160nm of torque as low as 1500 rpm, more than peak torque of cps 150nm at 4.5krpm.

So,hopefully this will clear the picture

---

Added on January 11, 2012, 8:15 amcompression ratio is not only about performance,it is also about efficiency n also lower comp ratio allow the engine to accept low octane fuel.

Normally high performance na engine has high comp ratio,and its cause them only to accept premium@high octane fuel only. Thats why type r n swift sport only can accept minimum premium fuel as ron 97 in malaysia.

---

Added on January 11, 2012, 8:17 amthats is also why cvvt existed in cfe,to cater low end torque from 1-2k rpm before tubo unit kick in.

This post has been edited by mat79: Jan 11 2012, 08:17 AM

one more thing,if u press the pedal more than 85% of throttle, full cvt mode will change to slow mode sat, which cause the rpm raise slowly to upper rev,not jump up like in cvt.

There are a lot of cvt tech that we need to learn on,not just wiki,it is full of tech, they way it works also diff than conv at.

Thats why nowadays, they opt to single clutch,dual clutch n cvt trans rather than conv torque converter at. But still some still using it since it is already well known n well verse.

of couse vios is price higher due to tax, but also due to traders profit. Let me inform u, vios is under asean cept program n it being tax the same as locals @ 75% excise duty n 10% sales tax. 10% ckd import tax is wave due to cept.Same as saga,@ 75% excise duty n 10% sales tax. Please refer to www.maa.org.my to get clear picture.

Locals rebate 50% on excise duty already lifted since 2009,it is under nap program. So,now they are equally in term of tax paid. Refer to www.customs.org.my , www.maa.org.my n midf website.

So, what had happened? It is higher traders profit charge by toyota to us. If u have opportunity to look at ap paperworks,u will be shock coz even some take traders profit at 70k percar,its not from europe,it is from asia country.

Saga is not relevant to compare to vios, coz even without tax, its still cheaper than vios. True competitor is persona elegance n gen2.

Just wait for p321a, it is direct competitor with vios n city, with same tax applied, n judge whether prtn can do better or not compare to vios@city.

Dont talk about old tax structure coz we are now in 2012. Happy motoring.

---

Added on January 11, 2012, 3:33 pmjust wait whether p321a premium is par with inspira @ rm80 below or better or lesser.

This post has been edited by mat79: Jan 11 2012, 03:33 PM