After taking some time to read the whole conversation piece I can conlude the following so far :

1. Tash ask Frog to sell him the games / take over his rental business, and frog replied he will sell most (but not all). Since there was no reply, Frog continue business for 1 month (selling / renting), and later after almost a month Frog asked Tash whether Tash still wants to buy since got updates in Frog's PS3 games list.

2. When Tash want to buy all, Frog highlights that Frog can only sell by bulk because of reasons stated in Frog's PM list including games he likes to keep.

3. And then both discuss on MSN, and wrote down the list of games (I counted about 34 in the MSN but probably separately there is others). A pair of games is the Eye of Judgement (1 with accessory for RM 80 quoted by Frog and the other for RM 60 without accessory. From the MSN thread it looks like Tash offered to buy 59 pieces, and wanted to take 25 games first because of bank transaction limit (include the 2 EOJ). To make it easier Tash offered RM 1.5 K for this first bulk to which Frog okayed even though one of the games (EOJ) costs RM 80 which would make the whole costs to be RM 1520. Hence Frog discounted RM 20 from the whole bulk further.

KEY ASSUMPTION : Frog only offers the games at RM 60 if take everything (even though batch by batch) and allowed the buyer to pay by batch as well thinking that he / she will promised to collect the other batch later. Having said that, Frog did also say that he can let go everything 1 shot but buyer now wanted it by batch because cannot withdraw enough money for everything.

4. They then meet up at a bright place where Tash & his mum were there to check the discs. Gonna assume transaction when okayed since no one mention any complains then.

5. Tash later reverted saying that there was missing cards with the EOJ game (the one promised - and initially at RM 80) to which later Frog replied he will pass it together with the 2nd batch of PS3 games Tash promised to buy (again based on the above Key Assumption). Since Frog already said he can pass the games all immediately, it is safe to assume he can transact at any time but that hasn't happened because Tash can't meet up due to scheduling conflict.

KEY ASSUMPTION : Frog did not pass the cards to Tash and Tash agreed to buy in bulk.

6. However, later Tash reverted that he doesn't want the EOJ anymore so Frog offered to reduce the price of the next bulk by 2 games upon return, but unfortunately Tash replied he doesn't want to do it because did not receive EOJ full set (someone should explain what does EOJ come with). He just want to know exchange the game but Frog doesn't want that because his initial offer was everything in bulk and at a certain price, and assumed to be agreed with Tash (just that Tash cannot take it one shot).

Now personally I dealt with both this bros before and I consider them both nice fellas, but objectively this are my thoughts :

i. Tash accuses Frog of being ill-mannered and that he was forced to buy the games off him - I can't see any evidence of this yet (I exclude all the name callings prior to this topic being created). I can't see any incidents of being forced to. All I observe was a buyer promised to buy a whole bunch of games batch by batch at a price the seller willing to sell and that this games were already agreed upon in a list (whether buyer has it or not, its not a point - its still an offer to buy).

ii. The accuser also states that the seller lied to him on the EOJ game, when the seller already communicated that 1 of the EOJ game came with accessory and the other did not (buyer took both). Unfortunately seller forgot to bring the accessory (which is the cards) during the 1st transaction so he said he will bring he when they do the next bulk transaction which should be immediately because all the games are already with the seller.

iii. Now Tash wants to get full refund or exchange the 2 EOJ games, while Frog wants him to fulfill the bulk because of his promise but still willing to exchange or reduce total bulk by 2 games. Furthermore, since Tash has open a rental thread, Frog probably feels that now with the 25 games Tash has, his already starting to rent them out (I'm just assuming this).

I hope both of you can kiss and make up but with all the name calling, and accusations I think thats impossible. I not sure how you want to solve this coz its obvious Frog's intention now is to share with everyone that Tash did not keep his promised while Tash seems bent on getting a full refund since he believe that Frog was not upfront about his games though so far most of the replies state that the seller, Frog, has clearly spelled out the terms.

Tash, please do share the conversations that you said will highlight your complaint, as clearly the whole situation doesn't sound like the one you painted.

This post has been edited by terryfu: Dec 5 2011, 04:52 PM

I think on both counts its a misunderstanding between Tash & Frog because of a missing acc.

Tash, sorry but people do sell games without acc. I seen in video game shops, they sell games like eye of judgement, rock band, guitar heroes, any playstation move, etc etc all without the accessories. So what constitutes a full set I can't really fault the seller for not sharing that because they dont know also sometimes whether got or maybe buyer already knew what he's buying. In this case perhaps you should have researched more on EOJ and clarify with Frog on this. As buyers we cannot assume that if someone list the game he or she will specify accessory at least not in this video games garage sales forums.

Example of EOJ I found on amazon.uk : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eye-Judgment-Solus...23078657&sr=8-3

Of course got other EOJ sets sold by amazon.com and other places but fair to say got people / retailers sell this just the game disc alone. Also noticed on ebay got sellers selling game only and some selling stand and mat only and some selling full set with stands, mat, cards, etc. so I guess this game is unique in that respect. Amazon US selling the game with stands, mat and cards for USD 70!!!

Frog, all I can advise you is that maybe triple confirm with the buyer for games like this (tell them it does not come with this set or this accessory, etc). It would help better but then again can't really fault you because most of the LYN sellers here can hardly confirm with me CE contents .

This post has been edited by terryfu: Dec 5 2011, 06:01 PM

Hey Tash can u help point out which part of the conversation that frog said he'll well both cards and acc for rm 80. All I Saw in this thread and ur 95 conversation pics that he said for cards only. Maybe my 4 eyes missed that out

Hence Tash why I asked if u have anything that says frog offered the acc and cards to u for rm 80. U can just offer back to him rm 40 for the acc because that was not part of the deal in the beginning.

Actually I was going to ask about the list but he answered already. I scrutinized the conversation and couldn't find anything saying that frog agreed on the games until the last part where agree to sell 59 games. In the msn conversation can't see the games mentioned highlighted and the list a mixtuRe of a lot of games so can't tell which is promised or not. Having said that since from the beginning tash wanted to buy bulk of games from him, frog has been updating him the list.

Tash since u admitted that there was no acc given for eoj as it was not part of the transaction, the it's up to frog whether he accept the ur offer for it. However since there was a separate agreement to buy the rest of the games, you should honor it as a buyer based in the list both of u agreed.

To TS (Tash), lets go back to your original complaint in the 1st post you put also titled ill-mannered & want you to buy games off him. Now I can't really understand yet what you want to do coz this forum is whether you want to highlight or ask the staff to place Frog under dispute / blacklisted because so far you have not pointed out how he is forcing you to buy games from him ( I leave out the ill mannered because both of you have been name calling each other here.

Also you gave the options as per the spoiler below so you will need to decide how you want to pursue this if Frog does not comply with any of your requests. Again I'm just focusing on what kind of complaint you want to put up here, and what you want us Forumers to be warned about.

TS (Tash) resolution options


As for the response from some of the forumers here, I can concur why Seller (Frog feels cheated) as there is evidence in the conversations that Tash suppose to buy the whole games agreed (59 pcs) from Frog at a price of RM 60. Whether the price is fair / good deal or not that is not the point. Point a gentleman's agreement has been made, and while Frog wanted Tash to take the whole set, in the end he only took 25 first, and from what I gather inthe conversation these 25 is for the games Tash did not own. The rest of it Tash already more or less has the games and Frog is feeling that because buyer wanted to only take 1st batch first (reasons stated was ATM withdrawal limit). Frog probably feels that Tash probably tried to bargain by taking more games to get lower prices (after all cheaper in bulk), collect the 1st batch which he does not own, then later come up with some stories so don't have to take second batch. Personally I feel is a misunderstanding but fact of the matter is there was an agreeement to buy the whole list as per what the other forumers stated below.

As for the EOJ misunderstanding, I can say that any LYN seller who sell in the game forums, it is understood for games disc only (whether can play or not with or without accessories / cards, etc). You guys obviously know this and can check every major seller here. Hence cannot compare with handphone or computer set, etc. as different market got different way of sharing their wares. Now I don't know what Tash is thinking when he bought the EOJ as per shared by Frog, and I cannot say that Frog is wrong for elaborating how the EOJ game is like because he just mentioned EOJ with cards.

And since Tash misunderstood about EOJ, Frog offered to sell the 57 games again at the price of RM 60 instead of 59, allowing Tash a full refund for the EOJs.

Frog's misgivings


Lastly, I would like to comment @noruazumi post on trading in LYN.

Most of LYN trading is based on gentleman's agreement and no seller nor buyer draws up a list of terms and conditions. It naturally based on human trust unlike major trading sites like Lelong / Ebay, etc. Normally its via chat rooms, or PMs. I agree that as a buyer you should always clarify before you buy and do the usual common steps like insist on COD, ask can work or not with this or that, etc.

However, I fail to understand what extra effort that the seller should do? For me seller should state clearly what they want to sell and I think from all the conversations, that is stated clear enough by Frog. Not sure what you mean by structured negotiation process. Its usually a simple case of seller put an item on offer (describe as best able to), buyer offers price (asks as much about the product), and if both agrees including terms of delivery or COD, than the deal is done.

And you're right, this is not a ffk case. hence let the TS decide what he wants to do. Normally people put up a dispute topic to either highlight to warn other buyers / sellers or ask LYN staff to blacklist them (hence coming back to the top of this reply to Tash). I doubt if both would call each other now looking the responses and its up to TS how he want to proceed once Frog replies to his options (which I think he already indicate as above) so I say the balls are in Tash's court to proceed with next step.

LYN Trading


BTW, as I said before I know both of them and have played with them and feel a little sad that this happened and what I'm trying to do here is summarize the whole points so that both can move on to whatever's next. Hence Tash I leave up to you to decide on what you want to do. I've read the whole MSN conversation and I cannot find fault on the transaction prior before you start complaining to Frog about the EOJ and even them Frog offered to refund those 2 games for you.

Bro Tash & Frog, I very confused so again I come back to the nature of the complaint.

Tash, you still havent let us know what you want us to decide or are you just sharing a grievance. In your complaint details you mention you that the EOJ comes without the necessary accessories and Frog has agreed to refund them via contra with the balance of the games that you were suppose to buy. Then you felt that he is forcing you to buy the games or even all of the games but if I look at the conversation below you already agreed to buy 59 games from a list.





In there you mention you will also will take 25 on that day (29/11) and the rest tomoro and again Frog insisted you take one shot but finally allowed you to take batch by batch.

To me you have agreed to buy this 59 games on that list on 29/11. As far as I can see a gentleman's agreement has been made to buy this list of 59 games to which you took 25 already. Now if Frog had change the list of the balance games that he agree to sell to you, then I agree that it is his error, and you have every right to reject it. Again I not sure why you say you didn;t confirm coz you blatantly confirm "tomolo, will buy the rest of em" as of 29 Nov 4.25:43 pm.

So my question to you is, where can I find that Frog is forcing you to buy other games instead. List already agreed by both you and him. Did he change this list of 59? I notice you show some games list but I counted 136 / 144,, etc etc. and I also noted that early in the conversation Frog mentioned Black is rented out and only willing to sell the blue ones to which you agreed to take all I believe.

And Tash, I don't really bother about any other list he tempered, I just want to know whether you genuinely agree to buy the 59 games as per your conversation with him.

And Frog, please stick to complaint, what Tash wants to do with the games he bought from you is up to him. Did you change the list of 59 games? Were you going to take out some of them and replace with others? His accusing you of forcing to buy the games so please share the list of the games that he already agreed to buy if its not forced and let us know that was the original list that both of you agreed on.

This post has been edited by terryfu: Dec 6 2011, 07:20 PM

Tash, after reading your perspective of this I can only conclude the following (pending you share the EOJ) :

1. Tash misunderstand Frog's offer. Frog misunderstood Tash's offer to buy. (example Tash said "the rest are 2 or 3" then later frog said "available now is 59", and finally tash say "will buy the rest of them"). So whether agreement to buy all for price of RM 60, I leave it to both of you to sort it out. To me it is a big misunderstanding.

So coming back to what you want to do Tash? All I can summarize now is that

1. Both of you feel aggrieved because did not get what you want out of this deal. Tash thought the EOJ was full set. Frog thought Tash would buy the whole list.

Like some of the forumers mention b4, all this is a big misunderstanding and there is no fault in either party. Tash, you get 25 games at RM 60 although 2 games were not what you expected so maybe loss of RM 120 there. Frog, you missed out on selling the balance 34 games so technically your opportunity loss of almost RM 2 K there.

And since Frog does not want to refund and neither does Tash want to take the 2nd batch I take it the case over already so both of you can stop this name calling and hurt each other's reputations. I wont touch the ill mannered part here or go around saying who start this first because both of you have been calling each other names and under the wrong assumptions on each other.

For me I recommend mod / staff to close this down (i know some LYNers already mention this) because there is no dispute, and both parties feel they con each other (double conning?) so maybe its not a con after all.

Guys, lets just leave them a bit awhile. Can see that we all also may have slightly different understanding of the MSN conversation. Communication is only 20% words so there are many perceptions when one says this and another say that going on. every line of it has an assumption going on in Tash & Frog's head.

b00n has already stated his piece

And again I reiterate, let Tash state what he really wants since he started this topic and see if got any settlement. If nothing happens further, this thread will be closed and we can all go back watching our regular channels