Okay. I'll come back with more reasons, I promise. I love this discussion thingy, as I'm a huge fan of watches.

I am sure all will be waiting

Let's compare mass production to non-mass-production items in general.

Why don't you buy a Swatch? Swatch Group owns ETA. Which means ETA is in-house mechanical movement for Swatch. There are Swatch models out there within the -4+6sec guideline. Why buy Rolex?

From what you say, shouldn't you be buying Swatch as well? Why Glashutte? Why Patek? Why IWC?

Why buy Mercedes/BMW/etc. when you can buy Proton? Mass produced ... CamPro is a technology developed by Renault, but the patent has been bought over by Proton ... so they own the rights to it ... and it is widely considered/claimed by Proton to be their in-house engine ...

All cars are mass produced, even Ferrari or Bentley or Rolls Royce. Wether anyone claims Campro is in house by proton or not is irrelevant.
Your example can be said of IWC as well as some IWC models are using modified ETAs and then claimed as in house? This in house thing is blown out of proportions. I can say that Seiko is as in house as they get. They even make their own lubricant for the movements.
IWC, Patek, Glashutte still outsource some parts from outside... so this is what you call in house?
You wanna go deeper? Do they mine their own steel? Grow cattle to make the straps for the watches? Another humbug "in house" argument.
As to why buy luxury cars when a Proton can do the same job?
Simple, because some can afford it.
As to how they spend their money, it is their god given rights.
We can say all we want but in the end of the day, they are driving the Merc and BMW, not us.

Think economics ... once an item has been produced in mass quantity, price tend to fall ... You can't design a movement 20 years ago, and sell for 20k back then (today's currency with inflation factored in), and sell the same movement for 20k today after selling millions of the same product. Initial cost should be high, because companies need to recoup their investment in research and development ...

Think economics, what you mentioned only works in the electronics and gadget sector.
Who are we to say what watch companies can or can't do? Hell they're doing it... and it's still working.
Prices of watches are not something that can be calculated based on materials or movements.

IWC / Patek / etc. always come out with new models, with new movements or upgraded/modified/etc. which justifies the whole cost thing ...

If you think that new movements upgraded or modified is justified for the price of a watch, then you have the right to believe so.
But in actual fact, luxury watch prices are never justified. It's a business, they are in it to make money.
No matter how much they make you believe that your watch has a special movement or whatnot, it's all marketing gimmick.
Watches are personal, some ppl like this and some like that. No 2 person are alike.
Some value watches on brand alone, some like designs no matter what brand, some like theirs expensive, some like theirs affordable and dependable.
BTW, there's a saying "why recreate the wheel?"
Rolex designs is stale but they make improvements all the time.
Alot of people do not know and Roles is a very secretive company.
Name me 1 watch that can look good on anyone male or female thin or fat tall or short? I can... A Rolex Submariner.

Another example ... Will you pay RM300k for latest Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution that's using the first generation Evo engine? Technology advances ... todays in-line 4 - 2.4L engines easily get you 30+miles per gallon ... back then, 20-30 years ago even 1.8L engines can't get 20+miles per gallon ... I just refuse to pay today's technology price, for old technology ...

The best a Rolex could do is 40-70 hours Power Reserve ... the best IWC can do is 7-8 days power reserve ... Patek and Breguet does 10 days ... back then 40 hours Power Reserve is pretty damn good ... but today's standard, at least to me ... for a watch lover, who wears different watch everyday ... go for higher Power Reserve ... or buy em' mechanical boxes ...

So from what you're saying, longer power reserve (30+ miles per gallon) = new technology
Short power reserve (20+ miles a gallon) = low technology?
Internal Combustion Engine alone is low tech, no matter how many miles you can squeeze out of a gallon.
Same like the swiss pellet fork and wheel escapement.
And most watches is using it even the brands that you named that get's your respect so much.
Longer power reserve? Add in an extra mainspring barrel and power reserve is at least doubled or more.
It's just like adding another fuel tank. Of course fuel costs money but the winding of the watch doesn't. But you get the drift.

More to come ...

Oh yeah I forgot ... I love em' German made watches "Lange and Sohne" and "Glashutte Original" ... I love em' Grand Lange 1
However, I will give credit when credit is due ... Rolex are great diving watches ... and it's rugged ...

But when you pay such price for a watch, a watch should represent you ... Rolex makes you look rugged ... but I prefer a watch that represents me ... "CLASS" ...

A watch does not represent you. It just represent that you like to tell time by looking at your wrists.
A person wearing a Seiko can have "class" because when you carry yourself well, well mannered with a good personality. Then you have class.
A Taikor AhLong Loanshark can have plenty of money to afford a Grand Lange 1 or a Frank Muller Giga Tourbillion but does he instantly have "class" ?

Agreed with hanz079.

my watch is also accessories of my daily outfit, depend on the color and style.
i wear them depend on how i want them to match it with my outfit.
i have varies brands in my collection, i appreciate every watch i bought..
from seiko, archimede, stowa, tag heuer, rolex, jaeger-lecoultre, iwc to patek philippe.

This post has been edited by silverstan: Nov 26 2011, 06:59 PM

People who "knows" mechanical watches will know that Rolex is a pioneer of alot of what we see in today's watches.
People who thinks Rolex is famous because of the celebrity it endorses does not "know" watches.
Let me ask you something, when you buy your Tag Kirium, what makes you choose it? Brand recognition? Design?
I do not know but what I know is most of the consumer was like how you were 8 years ago.
And in one way or another you are also sucked in by these adverts.
That's how you can quote Patek's tagline.
How many will take the extra steps to find out what goes behind a brand name? Most won't.
What people know is normally what the salespeople tell them, and the salespeople will say anything to move watches.

People in WUS bashing Rolex? Well, on the internet, we can find anyone bashing anything... nothing is perfect but we should not take it at face value.
A true watch lover will not laugh at what other people have on the wrists, they will appreciate a person's unique taste and what he chooses.
A true watch lover will appreciate everything about watches. The beauty, history, work and most of all is emotional attachment.
A Grandpa's or Dad's heirloom Seiko will worth more than anything in the world because it carries sentimental value and history with it.
You remember seeing it on their wrists all the time and now it has passed to you.
It's no Patek but it's your Grandpa's watch.

Any watch lover will look at 2nd hand because it is just another way of getting a watch that is either out of circulation or discontinued.
Every watch lover will think that the next watch they buy will be the last and they will pass it on to the next generation but in actual fact, when one "grail" watch have been bought, another "grail" mysteriously appears and the lust continues.
In the end, the one that your next generation remembers is the G-shock or Seiko beater that you wear most of the time because the more expensive ones were never worn that frequently.

No offence but I find it comical that you have learnt how to appreciate fine watches for 5 years.
Oh, and a BMW will not get you noticed... it's just a BMW... I can drive my el cheapo rusted Datsun with rainbow paint job and a hello kitty stickers and get noticed more.
As for watches, believe it or not, for every 100 people you meet everyday, most of the time, maybe not 1 will ask what you're wearing or notice what you're wearing.

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 26 2011, 07:26 PM

I guess it was my mistake, I apologize for calling certain brands "garbage/piece of shit". I guess I'll just clarify myself. What I meant was, those brand are not worth the money. It's like paying RM300k for a Proton Saga. Some of you do have your points right, to some, a Proton is in fact worth RM300k, but not to me.

One of you did mention about my taste 8 years ago, as to purchase a Quartz Kirium F1 TAG Heuer. Back then, I was only 21 yr old. I was young, and naive, or shall I say, I was totally new to luxury watches. It was a watch from my mother, as a gift. I went for purely look, and functions. Only to regret it years later, after evolving, learning to appreciate the beauty of the engine that drives a mechanical watch. I've found out that Quartz/Digital watches are simple watches to produce, can be easily produced. The most important part of it is an integrated chip that stores all the algorithm to record time, and of course a battery to power it up. Whereas a mechanical watch consists of many separate pieces, and in same cases, are handcrafted and installed piece by piece. After reading the history of mechanical watches, and how a movement was designed, I learned to love mechanical watches, as though it is an art. I'd compare Quartz vs Mechanical, to Photos taken by cameras, to pictures drawn by painters. Once you understand how much effort is being spent on it, only would one truly appreciate the final product. But of course, there are ppl out there who prefer camera pictures than hand drawn, as they believe it looks more realistic.

There's also another reason why I didn't quite like TAG Heuer. After owning the watch for 2 years, I needed to have the batteries replaced. So I sent it to KL Plaza's service center. After they serviced it, which I believe they didn't seal it properly, or a small amount of water moisture went in, and the chrome hour/minute/second hands had moist corrosion approximately 2 months after service. I took it back to to KL Plaza and blamed them, but they refuse to take the blame for it. Anyhow, I had them chrome hands replaced for RM1100 (and I still have the receipts as of today), and guess what? 3-4 months later, same shit happened. I brought the issue up, and my brother told me he warned me against buying a TAG Heuer, but I ignored, as he had same issues with his watch TAG Heuer 4000 Series Automatic back in the days, and my Uncle's 4000 Series too. Time wasn't accurate from day one, and sent for servicing, the watch became way too fast. I'm talking about tens of minutes too fast. Tried numerous times to fix it.

The way I look at things are pretty simple ... a brand is as good as it's service center ... technicians at TAG Heuer's service center in Malaysia are not qualified at all ... for as long as I remain in Malaysia, I would at least avoid that brand. That's also a reason why I avoided purchasing Zenith. I loved Zenith, but I went with IWC instead because of this sole reason.

Why I insist on in-house mechanism? I just believe that spending RM20k on a watch, is a luxury. I'm not a super rich person. That's why I would like to believe if I spent RM20k on a watch, it better be worth the money. In-house technology represents how deep that company/brand is into "it" ... Why would I buy a RM20k watch that uses an ETA mechanism that's found in watches under RM1k? Just for the design? Someone also mentioned Audi/VW/Skoda using the same 2.0TFSI engine, I appreciate it. But that's different, they are all owned by Volkswagen Group, IMHO. But we're comparing Apples and Oranges, there's nothing wrong with TAG Heuer using Zenith engines, because they're both sister companies under one same roof. Unlike cheaper watches like "BALL", which is a USA company, but purchases engines from ETA, and modify it, and sell the watch as it's own name. Don't get me wrong, I'm a BALL WATCH fan, as I own a Ball Aviator 46mm, it is indeed a very beautiful and great watch, for the money. I paid RM5500 less 32% discount for it. It was worth every single cent of it. As good as the Ball Aviator is, there is no way I would pay RM20k for it. Funny thing is, on certain days, my Ball is actually more accurate than my IWC. So value doesn't just rely 100% on how accurate it is. Also, if you guys ever seen and tried on the actual IWC Portuguese Automatic, look at the back of the watch, the mechanism itself is a true beauty, and I fell for it at first sight after looking at it. I've seen countless generic movements, and none look like the IWC I currently own. To fit everything in that small encasement, and pump up 7 days worth of power, to me is still a great invention/design. I hope you guys understand where I'm coming from.

Please don't come comparing classics to what I'm talking about. A 1960 Ferrari is considered classic, because they're built in 1960, and back then the engine in it was a "GREAT INVENTION". If you build the same model today, and put in the same engine, please do note this, built in 2011, the cost of that particular Ferrari will not cost the same. However what I was referring to regarding the old mechanism/technology, is a Brand New Ferrari, built, and installed with a 1960 engine, I'm willing to bet you whatever I have, it will not make it classic, and therefore not make it super expensive, because it is not classic. But I know, since it is still a Ferrari, the price will be expensive, but it will not be as expensive as a Classic 1960 Ferrari.


I didn't claim that IWC's are fully in-house, they do have movements supplied by ETA, for eg, one of my favorite is IWC Portuguese Chronograph, it has a modified ETA movement, and it costs RM22k after discount. I think it looks great, and is cheaper than the Portuguese Automatic I purchased, but I didn't buy it for the fact that it runs a generic engine. But of course, that is my personal point of view.

I just hope that I didn't really push the limit too much, as it seemed as though everyone is pretty pissed at me for dissing Rolex. I've claimed that Rolex are great watches for diving purposes, and of course the Submariners do look good. But somehow, I just don't think it is worth the price. If you own a Rolex, be happy about it, as a lot of ppl couldn't afford one, and I for one don't own one. Ppl do purchase luxury items so that it could in a way provide a sense of satisfaction, and it is very hard to justify. But again I emphasize that a Proton Saga costing RM300k could probably provide me with a sense of satisfaction as I drive around in it, but it will not provide the same amount/level of satisfaction as though I owned a RM300k Mercedes. But of course, I'd always go for the SATISFACTION/DOLLAR factor.

Anyway, everything written above are solely my humble opinion, nothing but an opinion. Wasn't intended to make enemies here.

Cheers. I'll be back.

P.S. Why I also prefer other brands over Rolex? I can wear an IWC daily, walking through the markets/etc. without having to fear that someone would chop my hands off. I enjoy luxury at my own expense, for my own pleasure only. I don't do it just so that others would notice me, and put my life under jeopardy. My watch is something that I look at it everytime and it gives me the sense of satisfaction that only I, myself, most of the time know ... unlike a Rolex ... I bet you, go to a wet market, ask any random person if they recognize or heard of a Rolex, almost 99%, if not 100% ppl know about it. But try JLC, IWC, Patek, Breguet, Hublot, Richard Mille, etc. it'd be a miracle if more than 1 out of 5 person recognize even one of those mentioned brands. But don't quote me on statistics, I'm just trying to make a point, that's it.

This post has been edited by ytkwong: Nov 26 2011, 08:34 PM

That's more like a civilized discussion.
As for the IWC 7 days, I don't own one but I am sure they are smashing watches.
But they do receive complains on being inaccurate.
Not within COSC but I am not sure about wether the movement is COSC certified?

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f350/7-day-mo...oll-331774.html

Anyway, I got commented that my watch is a fake the other day when I was wearing this.



He said that I wear it on a fabric strap because the bracelet quality is the easiest way to spot a fake.
That's why I wear it on "fabric strap"
He's wearing an Omega Planet Ocean and he thinks the co-axial escapement is the "greatest" invention in the world of watchmaking.
Uhhh.... ok... he is entitled to his opinion.

I would love to own an IWC Inge one day.

About getting your hands chopped off over a Rolex, I have no such fears as I drive a Proton and most will think it's fake.
Anyone and everyone knows Rolex... that's the brand.
It's their success and also a curse sometimes.

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 26 2011, 09:03 PM

1st do u understand the use of Tourbillion?
it is use in pocket watch for a good reason. on the wrist.. hmm.. u go read 1st.
regulating a Tourbillion for a wrist watch that is used in so many orientation is very hard.

when did U get your IWC at 28K pretty good deal for a new watch i think.

if U getting a Zenith EP, even the technicians here in US cannot do a good job, they need to be shipped back to Swiss every 5yrs. Tag service centre not doing a good job complain to HQ is Switzerland u can get your watch done there.

COSC - go read about it, once u bring your watch for service it is no longer COSC. it was once certified COSC. if a watch maker F**k up and COSC watches also produce lemons.

German Chronometer - have U read how they do things and the difference with COSC?

Ball is about making watches, don't confuse making watches = making movements.

with regards to if ppl would pay $20K for a ETA movement watch, I am sure u can find those ppl. don't forget eta movement come in different grades.

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Added on November 26, 2011, 9:05 pmI get that many times already.. LOL

This post has been edited by patryn33: Nov 26 2011, 09:14 PM

Interesting opinions.

Quote from the watch snob " Then there is the mighty Rolex. Would I put Rolex up with Patek or A Lange & Sohne? Not for a second. But, do I consider it a very important step above IWC, Zenith and even Vacheron? Most certainly. The reason is this: People care about Rolex; nobody really cares about those other brands. There are dedicated forums to Rolex, get-togethers, books, you name it. When was the last time you saw a Vacheron event or a book about IWC that people actually bought? Sure, their movement may be in slightly better shape than your average Rolex (debatable, surely), but in 20 years, your Rolex will be worth something -- and everything else will be scrap metal."

Read more: http://www.askmen.com/fashion/mens-watches...l#ixzz1eofk8Ade

Personally i collect watches based on models, not such much on brands. From a WIS point of view, there are certain pieces from various brands such as rolex (sub & datejust), iwc (Portuguese), omega (speedmaster), JLC (reverso, memovox etc), Zenith (el primero), PP (calatrava) that are classics. To me, those are worth buying.

Well, different people have different views. At the end of the day, just buy anything that makes you happy. I mean seriously, its just a watch.

Bro, you have to check what brand swatch group own, (from wiki)
Breguet, Blancpain, Glashütte Original, Jaquet Droz, Léon Hatot, Omega, Longines, Rado, Union Glashütte, Tissot, Calvin Klein Watches + Jewelry, Balmain, Certina, Mido, Hamilton, Swatch, Flik Flak, Endura and Tourbillon.
Some of the brands they are sharing same engine too. LOL

For those not belong to swatch group, that's because ETA calibre is reliable, that's why other companies also using it, of coz for business point of view that's the way to make profit.

Let's not forget, because Swatch group owns ETA and Breguet, Blancpain, Glashütte Original, Jaquet Droz, Léon Hatot, Omega, Longines, Rado, Union Glashütte, Tissot, Calvin Klein Watches, Balmain, Certina, Mido, Hamilton, Swatch, Flik Flak, Endura and Tourbillon, it means that all these brands technically are using "in-house" movement.

Man, this "in house" thing is getting pretty tiring ain't it?

All the brands under Swatch group are using in house movements.
Reason being Swatch owns ETA and ETA manufactures movements.

A stock ETA movement with improvements and modifications also considered in house.
Reason being because the watch manufacturer said so.

A base movement bought from Seiko and then modified also considered in house.
Reason being the Boss at Tag said that the improvements made to the movement is enough to consider the movement "100% in house" (that's what the brochure said)

All Seiko watches using in house designed and manufactured movements down to the hairspring and lubricant.
Yet most people have no clue.

Go figure man....

I remember back in the days when people are arguing over what constitutes "Swiss Made"

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 26 2011, 10:12 PM

LOL, let's not keep 'discuss' on this topic. let's share more pics so others can enjoy this thread.

Yes I agree...

Let me start.
Since there's alot of talk on in house, I hope my watches are up to standard.

My Zenith Chronomaster El Primero XXT.


And my old Zenith El Primero HW. (uses the same base movement as the Daytona. Only without the automatic winding)

i like your old zenith! it's so classic.

well, i have to wait till i go back to hometown so i can play with my 2 new purchases..



this is my birthday present & my wife's birthday present. But currently this watch is her favorite watch now..


This post has been edited by silverstan: Nov 26 2011, 10:37 PM

I believe that strap is called a nato. Am I right?
I've been looking for it for quite some time. Where can I get it in Malaysia?

i also have mine put on nato once..

Oh come on, why the premature ending to the previous discussion? I see hanz was just sharpening his knives

Selling my GP here if anyone interested - sorry for the spam
http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f=215&t=2120725

@ytkwong - you know what, the same thing happened to me. I had a Tag way back in the late 80s. Whenever I get my battery replaced, I sent it to the main service centre and like yours, mine too had some water seepage inside after that and spoils the whole quartz movement. The service centre refused to accept any responsibility. Anyway I had swear off Tags forever.



This post has been edited by idoblu: Nov 27 2011, 08:08 AM

Where can I find Laco?

Online from their website.
Page 1 Post 1 has the link.

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Added on November 27, 2011, 9:46 amNo lah. I don't anyone is here looking for enemies.
Maybe just a couple of wrong choice words.

This post has been edited by hanz079: Nov 27 2011, 09:46 AM

Hi, I want to ask about the price range of Seiko SRL018P1. If possible, is there any review for the watch?

I do know Swatch Group owns a lot of em' watches. I didn't know Breguet and Glashutte Original uses ETA ... maybe some of their cheaper models, no doubt, but I know for sure, their high end models are designed in-house in Switzerland and Germany respectively.

Again, comparing Apples with Oranges. It's like VW 2.0TFSI in Audi A4 2.0T, and Golf GTI. But that 2.0T engine isn't in a Polo. VW also owns Bugatti, which they Veyron runs a W16 Engine, but you don't find that same engine in a Golf GTI, or any other cars by means.

This post has been edited by ytkwong: Nov 27 2011, 11:03 AM